Some questions on the basics

Let me preface this by stating that I am a fairly new, well very new, cave diver. I received my Intro training from Rick Murcar the first weekend of April, and have only logged 23 Intro dives in the past month. I try to learn more and more by watching other cave divers, talking with them, and asking questions. All of the cave divers that I've met and talked with have been great. This past weekend at Ginnie, there were a few things that happened that seemed to be a bit out of the ordinary from what I've been trained and common sense, that I thought I'd share them. Maybe I'm just too new, and maybe these are lessons for us all.

Over the weekend, at least 3 different times, I saw used condom caths sitting in the showers. I used handy plastic bags or paper to throw them away. Granted, the drunks at Ginnie do their fair share of messing up the bathrooms, but do we, as a community need to contribute?

As we were coming out of the cave on one dive, two divers on scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 jump turing corkscrews on the scooters. A few seconds later, the viz dropped dramatically, and it was pretty clear that at least one of the scooters had gotten into the clay in that area. Another team we know was ahead of us and noticed the viz drop as the scooters went by. We noticed lots of gouges in the Mud Flats on other dives. Aren't we supposed to stay out of the clay and the mud?

On one dive, we were coming out of the Ear while another team was entering. The team was just hanging on and there was really nowhere to go. It was clear that they saw us, as their light was right in my eyes. So we had to pull back into the Ear and and wait for them to enter before we could exit. Is there any rule of thumb that exiting teams should wait for entering teams in the Ear due to the flow. Again, I'm still learning and althouh I was taught to always yield to exiting teams, I don't know if there is some overriding factor that is an exception to that like high flow.

Again, as I said, I'm new to this and don't want to complain. These are just some obesrvations and questions for a new guy. As noted previously, I've met lots of great people in the cave community who have been really helpful and supportive!!

Don

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Originally Posted by inkdiver

As we were coming out of the cave on one dive, two divers on scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 jump turning corkscrews on the scooters. A few seconds later, the viz dropped dramatically, and it was pretty clear that at least one of the scooters had gotten into the clay in that area. Another team we know was ahead of us and noticed the viz drop as the scooters went by. We noticed lots of gouges in the Mud Flats on other dives. Aren't we supposed to stay out of the clay and the mud?

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Absolutely! There has been an accumulation of marks and damage over the years that I have been diving these areas (a coincidence, not a result of my technique ; ) When I see people bring it up the answer is normally something like 'you can't do any better so I have some sort of right to do it this way'. We all need to bring it up when we see this happening - the old 'what happens in the cave stays in the cave' is not doing the caves any good.

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Originally Posted by inkdiver

On one dive, we were coming out of the Ear while another team was entering. The team was just hanging on and there was really nowhere to go. It was clear that they saw us, as their light was right in my eyes. So we had to pull back into the Ear and and wait for them to enter before we could exit. Is there any rule of thumb that exiting teams should wait for entering teams in the Ear due to the flow. Again, I'm still learning and althouh I was taught to always yield to exiting teams, I don't know if there is some overriding factor that is an exception to that like high flow.

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Exiting teams have the right of way - they should have gotten out of your way. Maybe they thought there was plenty of room, but since you are new you didn't feel that way... that is one of the only excuses I can think of for them.

I would take no exception to your observations and would add it's the exception not the norm as far as behavior goes. Welcome

the scooter guys were comical
one guy does a barrel roll coming out of the hill 400 jump and exits upside down.
another 50 feet down the tunnel the vis mysteriously drops to about 20'

Next time you see something like that, see if their name is painted on tanks or scooter. I know of several seasoned cave divers that would love to have a quiet little chat with such folks.

As to the caths....Come on guys, I manage to throw my used Depends in the can, can't you follow suit?

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Originally Posted by Moonfuzzy

...We all need to bring it up when we see this happening - the old 'what happens in the cave stays in the cave' is not doing the caves any good....

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While i totally agree that clumziness, lack of control and eventually damage to the cave should be condemned i think that facts of damage should "stay in a cave" and not on a public forum. For cyberdivers from authorities internet talks is the primary source of information on a subject. They will judge based on your crying and eventually we will loose our privileges of access or they will limit our range in caves. Not to mention we may never see new dive sites open to "recreational diver". I know that every instructor teaches that we must care about the natural look of the cave. We talk about it on parking lotsand in agency printed publications. Isn't it enough?

I think however that ethics issues mentioned deserve more space for discussion here. The right of way is not only an ethics subject but the safety as well and it comes from assumption that exiting team might be low on gas, trying to maintain decompression stops, or may be compromised otherwise. Violating this is showing no respect to a fellow caver but also may be indirect compromise of somebody's safety which may be interpreted as a crime. Occasionally i've experienced non ethical behavior too: i was crashed into mud by cave instructor who thought he has more rights than me to be there, i was buzzed by scooters in Gallery, my reels were moved, etc. Ethics is also part of the cave training and if some people forget ethics i say: i'll let myself forget it for a moment too and kick his ass as a reminder of ethics. Well if he turns to be a smaller guy than me :-) of course...

To the thread starter: BTW many people prefer exit via Eye as it is easier to do stops and it is less desireable for teams to entry. So it kinda regulates traffic itself. But of course there are people who like it the opposite and for good reasons :-)

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Originally Posted by ARY

To the thread starter: BTW many people prefer exit via Eye as it is easier to do stops and it is less desireable for teams to entry. So it kinda regulates traffic itself. But of course there are people who like it the opposite and for good reasons :-)

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Thanks, ARY for the sugestion. We did both on different dives. As we are fairly new, we are trying to build up our experience in each. I do agree that stops are much easier coming out of the Eye.

Thanks!

Don

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

If you are intro why are you doing a jump onto Hill 400?

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i didn't.
just swimming past it

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

If you are intro why are you doing a jump onto Hill 400?

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We weren't. The scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 Jump onto the mainline, which is where we were.

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Originally Posted by inkdiver

We weren't. The scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 Jump onto the mainline, which is where we were.

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Sorry, I misread it.

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Originally Posted by ARY

i think that facts of damage should "stay in a cave" and not on a public forum. For cyberdivers from authorities internet talks is the primary source of information on a subject.

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That's been tried for years and years. It doesn't work.

If you see damage report it. If you see someone involved in cave damage report them. If you see instructors teaching poorly report them.To the agencies, to the park staff - to 911 if you have to.

There are now many cave agencies where there were once only a few and some could care less what happens to the caves and how many of their instructors and students are helping damage them.

The agencies have no way to correct what they never hear about and little reason to address the problems caused by other agencies when no one is making any complaints.

Some questions on the basics???

OK, basically since you are new, inkdiver, just come to these simple conclusions -

1 - Some people are just slobs. Some people are stupid. Some people are stupid slobs. Their mothers just didn't dope slap them enough for not cleaning up after themselves.

2 - Some people don't know jack about cave etiquette. Pity these morons, and those who choose to dive with them.

3 - Some people cant keep from banging into or bashing against the insides of caves. There are klutzes everywhere you look, why should the caves be any different.

4 - Ginnie Springs has a strict non discrimination policy, they accept money equally from everybody. As much as they can get. It is a business, and profit is not a 4 letter word. Don't get yourself into a frenzy over it, if you dont like it just go and dive somewhere else.

and 5 - Every time someone sees a skid mark somewhere and posts it on this or any other fourm, we get pages of the same old crap about how the sport has gone to hell in a bucket, the training agencies are a bunch of money grubbing whores, there are crappy instructors that can't teach their students anything, there are crappy divers that cant control themselves, and new divers may be the root of all of this evil. And then the world keeps turning until someone else sees another skid mark, and we do it all over again.

With that said, here is my basic advise---

DONT leave your trash anywhere, try to pick up every other a-holes trash if you can.

Let the people that are exiting out of the damn cave.

Try your best not to bump into anything, although you will. I will, everyone will sooner or later.

There is not one place that humans have walked, crawled, skidded, climbed, crapped, biked, sat, stood, or danced the fandango that does not show some sign of them being there. Either get over it, or stay home and live in your closet.

Try your best not to leave any signs that you have been anywhere.

Finally, and most important, whatever you do, don't ever believe that you cant cack yourself in a cave. You can.

ps - Dont cack yourself in a cave.

well OFG-1 summed that up pretty good.As for me?If I see someone doing something really stupid,I will confront them if I can identify them,and depending on the severity,post their name on this forum.If they beat me up Ill post that too.Idiots need to be held accountable.

As OFG-1 posted, everyone is going to make mistakes. Even you and me. I am the first to agree with talking to the party in the wrong...dont get me wrong. I had a team enter the eye on my line, while I was on deco, without asking if I was going to pull it. I had a talk with them and they agreed that they were in the wrong. I also agree, wholeheartedly, with cave conservation. Where I part ways with this thread is when we start telling on eachother. Are we in grade school? I am a teacher and nothing pis&es me off more than a kid telling on someone else. If it is a blatant destruction of the cave, hang 'em high, but if it is a beginners mistake, or an accident, help that person learn from it. Hope not to many get mad at me from this and ostracize me from the family.

I wasent talking about a mistake and Im not mad at anyone for giving their opinion.Am I in grade school?no comment.Would I rat some idiot who has no buisness in a cave?you damn right.What they done thats that bad depends on what it is.If they need to be held accountable.they should be.

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Originally Posted by everdeeper43015

I had a team enter the eye on my line, while I was on deco, without asking if I was going to pull it. I had a talk with them and they agreed that they were in the wrong.

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I'm curious. You said another team entered on your line without asking if you were going to pull it, can you elaborate please?

Did they leave a marker on your reel or line expecting you to leave your reel for them on exit?

How do you know they weren't just doing a visual?

It ain't text book, but crazy as that may sound, is does happen from time to time. :yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by inkdiver

Again, as I said, I'm new to this and don't want to complain. These are just some obesrvations and questions for a new guy. As noted previously, I've met lots of great people in the cave community who have been really helpful and supportive!!

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Don, you brought up some good points. There was a good thread a few months ago dealing with something related to this. Some good discussion about exiting team priority. Not saying it applies to your case.

http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28556

ok,ok after a pm looking back I would not rat someone out for leaving condoms in the bathhouse,or failure to yield to an exiting team.The scooter antics is the grey area.Silting out a passage for others because of horseplay is the danger .

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Originally Posted by stairman

ok,ok after a pm looking back I would not rat someone out for leaving condoms in the bathhouse,or failure to yield to an exiting team.The scooter antics is the grey area.Silting out a passage for others because of horseplay is the danger .

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Agreed on the scooter and silting. Guess I miss understood your original comment, and I was not calling you a school boy. Sorry if you took it that way.

As for the team entering, there was no marker on my reel. Yes, they could have been doing a visual, but after talking with them, they did say they were using my reel on the way in. I had another team ask to use my line and they would leave a marker on it. Being a fairly new cave diver, I thought that was standard. Now that I have a few more dives, I realize that visual jumps are common in Devils.