Insurance...the Life kind???

Recently while updating some of my insurance and mutual funds junk with my broker we began a discussion about our various diving trips and such...he informed me that my life insurance policy is absolutely null and void while cave diving. He has done a little research since for me and has not been able to find anyone who will offer life insurance while cave diving, even while staying within my certification zone!
I have found several that will cover me while drag racing, because they have people on staff who understand it, and as long as I am licensed and qualified to operate the race vehicle I am operating, I am fully covered.
Does anyone know of a life insurance company that is willing to deal with cave divers that, like drag racing understand it, and therefore as long as you are trained and stay within certification limits, will also be fully covered???:smt100

I'm not sure whether it covers you while cave diving or not, and the highest policy you can get is $200,000, but DAN offers life insurance to divers. You may want to check their policy out.

i have had allstate insurance since 1982 and since they covered me then and i was not diving, then after 2 years thay have to leave it in effect. it was the same when i started taking flying lessons. i have since bought another policy about 6 years ago and they siad it was ok since I was cave diving about 14 weeks a year at that time. i went back to them a couple of years ago and tried to either raise the amount of the policy or get an additional policy and the premium was going to be about $20k per year on that policy alone so I did not do it.

Actually, if you purchased a whole life policy and you started cavediving AFTER you purchased it, you would be covered.

Whole Life insurance policies go by what was on the application, not what you currently participate in. Thus, if they asked about diving activities when you applied and you told the truth, then you would be covered unless they explicitly state that diving accidents will not be covered (never have seen that myself).

I have 3 life policies. One of which I got prior to all of my "diving activities" and as such they have no say in what I do today. The other two I got prior to my cave diving certification date, thus I was only an OW diver at the time and they quoted me as such.

All 3 will pay when I die... in a cave or not.

If your broker is telling you otherwise and cannot show you the actual statement in the policy you currently have that states they will not cover you in a diving accident, I would look for a new broker... (just an opinion)

There are policies that will accept cavedivers, they just rate you higher... I find what they don't like is the deep diving.... >300ft. You may find term policies are more "forgiving" of certain activities.

I've got to start looking into this as well. I'd love to get in on a very low fixed rate while I'm young, should give me one less thing to worry about later in life (hopefully).

I had a student that was a doctor, who had a problem with life insurance. He threatened to change companies, for all his insurance, and they agreed to let him cave dive.

Check on the internet with Zander insurance. I recommend TERM life insurance about 10 times your annual income. Doesnt cost much at all. They have contact numbers on their website.

Insurance companies don't get rich by paying claims,if fact they do the opposite as much as possible. I'd sure want it in writing from the insurance carrier versus a verbal affirmitive from an agent. If something does happen, you don't want it tied up in litigation for years,thus keeping the beneficiary waiting when bills are due.

You need to also be aware that all policies have a "do not pay if involved in a illegal activity". That includes diving where it is illegal or during trespassing. So if you die at a closed site make sure your buddies drag you someplace open, stuff you in a legal cave and then call for help.

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Originally Posted by Cindy

You need to also be aware that all policies have a "do not pay if involved in a illegal activity". That includes diving where it is illegal or during trespassing. So if you die at a closed site make sure your buddies drag you someplace open, stuff you in a legal cave and then call for help.

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May be tough to explain why my dive computer says 330',and I am found near pot hole in Peacock with 10/60 in my tanks :-)

Sneaking again! I thought we broke you of all your bad habits! LOL, Cindy

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

May be tough to explain why my dive computer says 330',and I am found near pot hole in Peacock with 10/60 in my tanks :-)

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Oh that ones easy, about a 150' upstream from pothole there is a unsurveyed passage that drops hunerts and hunerts of feet, its a bottomless pit !!!! You see what happened was you accidentally dropped your travel gas down this chute, it was way too deep to retrieve it, so you tried to come out on the 10/60 got hypoxic and died....:roll:

Hows that for a story Kelly???

I would just leave a note on my tanks to ask the recovery team to drain my tanks and smash my computer before brining me up. :-)

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Originally Posted by MengTze

I would just leave a note on my tanks to ask the recovery team to drain my tanks and smash my computer before brining me up. :-)

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computer?

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by amphipod06

computer?

Dive safe,

Celia

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Talk to Kelly, I was just quoting him.....wrong tree sista :-)

or did you imply that it would be missing?

I have found that your best approach if open to you is to get as much as you can through your employer's group policy. There is usually a 3 times Salary plus up to $100,000 Additional coverage without underwriting questions. If you want more then you have to fill out the paperwork that asks lifestyle questions. I have asked our folks to check our policy and they say there no diving exclusions on the basic life (company paid) and suppliment (I pay). BTW I work for a law firm so I figure they might have read the fine print. If you don't have access to a work group policy then I think you are always going to have underwriting issues.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

I have found that your best approach if open to you is to get as much as you can through your employer's group policy. There is usually a 3 times Salary plus up to $100,000 Additional coverage without underwriting questions. If you want more then you have to fill out the paperwork that asks lifestyle questions. I have asked our folks to check our policy and they say there no diving exclusions on the basic life (company paid) and suppliment (I pay). BTW I work for a law firm so I figure they might have read the fine print. If you don't have access to a work group policy then I think you are always going to have underwriting issues.

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This is a good plan. It's generally the cheapest coverage and 'don't ask don't tell' works for life insurance as well as anything else.

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Originally Posted by Trailridgefire

Check on the internet with Zander insurance. I recommend TERM life insurance about 10 times your annual income. Doesnt cost much at all. They have contact numbers on their website.

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Yeah I checked with these guys and cause I am from Canada they can't deal with me.

Thats my problem because of my "high risk lifestyle", drag racing, etc my provider had the foresight to exclude me from other "risky" activities. I am not covered for skydiving, mountain climbing, etc. even though I did not, and still do not do, these activities prior to obtaining my policy. They were smart and got lucky...I already pay a 35% premium for my racing coverage of 50% of face value(which I recover from my sponsors), they want 3X my current premium to cover me while deep, and wreck diving, absolutely no cave coverage.

I originally had a life insurance policy ($35/month) that covered all remaining debt. I thought I was good to go. I happened to call my insurance company and asked out of curiosity if I was covered for cave diving. Of course NOT... They specifically stated that they would NOT pay if I was cave diving at the time. So I asked about my options.... You have to talk to a separate underwriter. They will ask you VERY specific diving questions regarding depths/frequency/wreck/cave diving. Then they will send one of their people out to take your blood pressure and draw lab work. Bottom line your premium will go up tremendously if you choose to carry this kind of insurance, but IMHO I think everyone should carry this insurance if you will be leaving significant debt behind that your family will have to deal with. I want to make sure that my family was taken care of in the event of an accident. If you are one of the lucky ones without any significant debt then this is a waste of money. Overall, TALK TO YOUR LOCAL INSURANCE REP and make SURE!! Look at your debt load and make your own personal decision.

I work for a major life insurance company and have had direct discussions with our head underwriter. Let me give you some things that I have learned. This is not advice in any way.

1.) If you are a cave diver you will be rated. As soon as I mentioned it to my underwriter, he recalled an underwriters conference a few years ago where they disccused Steve Berman's case specifically. His first question as soon as I mentioned cave diving was "Did you know Steve Berman". Needless to say, most underwriters do know about cave diving.

2.) While Underwriters know about cave diving, they certainly don't understand it and they don't have actuaray tables to cover it. My underwriter had dig through a lot of information to find very little, but his best guess was a flat $5.00 per $1000.00. That is a significant premium. Consider if you need $1,000,000.00 in 30 year level term, that cost would normally be approx 900.00 per year for a 32 year old. Add the flat fee and it becomes $5900.00 per year.

3.) If you had life insurance BEFORE you started cave diving, you are ok, just don't let it lapse. They must pay the death benefit as long as you didn't commit fraud on your application.

4.) If you lied on your application, there are two things that can happen. It could be considered fraud, in which the insurance company would not pay the death benefit. If you get past the 2 year incontestibility period without dying it gets a little sticky. It could still be considered fraud, or it could be considered a mis-statement. I do not recommend attempting to do this - your family may not have coverage if you were to die in a cave diving accident.

An insurance company cannot take away your coverage that you applied for if you change occupations or hobbies after the life insurance has been placed in force (as long as you didn't lie or mis-represent yourself at the time of the application) and as long as you continue to pay the premiums and don't let it lapse. I would suggest if you have term insurance to convert it to perm. insurance at the end of the term so you don't lose your insurablity.

Once again - This is not a legal representation... It is just my experience and thoughts on the subject. I hope it helps to clarify some questions.

Thank you David.
Here is a question for you then. What if the questionnaire does ask about diving, but not specifically cave diving? Applicant IS a current cave diver, answers the diving pieces honestly, but does not freely divulge anything beyond what is asked. That is not lying, nor misrepresenting. The underwriter just didn't ask about cave diving.....

Introducing John's "MayPay" insurance company. Cave Diver? No Problem. Aerobatic pilot? No Problem. Skydiver? No Problem. At John's "MayPay" insurance, we accept money from everyone.

As an example, if you are a cave diver, and need $500,000 worth of insurance, no problem. After our exhaustive physical examination, blood, urine, and hair folicle testing,and mental evaluation, a 30 year old cave diver in good health can get this policy for only $199.95 per month for a 72 month closed end lease, your mileage may vary. No wait, that's John's Rent-A Car. For insurance, thats only $265.55 per month.

As you age, the prices are guaranteed to go up as a inverse square logarithmic function of e with a pre stated maximum costs of $1995.95 per week, er month.

So what if you are not a 30 year old in good health, again, at John's MayPay insurance, no problem. Lets say you are over 50, not in the best health, and still need life insurance. Then we can sell you insurance for as little as $19.95 per month per unit*. Now if you are as old as John Jones or Johnny Richards, then a higher rate will apply.

Remember, John's MayPay Insurance, licensed and registered in Santo Domingo since 2008. (You have to start some time)




* 1 unit is $26.00 of life insurance payable as a gift certificate to the shameless commerce division of Car Talk, Harvard, Ma.


Not valid with any other offers. Void where prohibited. Side effects may include headache, dizziness, nausea, STD's, elephantitus, and rectal irritation. Pregnant women, or those considering becoming pregnant, should avoid contact with most cave divers. Erections lasting more than 4 hours are considered a medical emergency, and something that Old Fat Guys dont worry about.

Good question. When the underwriter looks at the application they will see you indicated you are a diver and will ask you to give detailed information. Usually they will call or write and ask what kind of diving, depths, and how much diving you do. You will most likely be rated, with the caveat that some insurance companies will not rate for what they deem to be 'recreational diving' which usually has a depth limit. I have seen depth limits from 50 to 120 feet as a recreational diver without rating. If you answer all the questions correctly, they issue the policy without doing thier homework, it is on the insurance company.

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Originally Posted by MengTze

Thank you David.
Here is a question for you then. What if the questionnaire does ask about diving, but not specifically cave diving? Applicant IS a current cave diver, answers the diving pieces honestly, but does not freely divulge anything beyond what is asked. That is not lying, nor misrepresenting. The underwriter just didn't ask about cave diving.....

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Originally Posted by MengTze

Thank you David.
Here is a question for you then. What if the questionnaire does ask about diving, but not specifically cave diving? Applicant IS a current cave diver, answers the diving pieces honestly, but does not freely divulge anything beyond what is asked. That is not lying, nor misrepresenting. The underwriter just didn't ask about cave diving.....

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not 100% positive on this but I am taking an insurance course right now, and thought I would chime in. It says in our notes that a material misrepresentation is: "a statement that would have caused an insurer to deny application or issue on different terms." It was also noted on the same slide that its not limited to false statements, it can be found that material misrepresentation extends to "not telling the entire truth."

I am no expert here, but I will clarify with my instructor...I am guessing in a case like you spoke of it would be up to a jury if that was indeed a material misrepresentation or not. Either way, not something I would wanna take a chance on, whether my family would collect or not. We didn't go into great depth when we covered this part of the contract as its only an intro class, but I will be sure to ask next week...

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Originally Posted by l31gc

..... "not telling the entire truth."

..

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I hear you. But not asking and thus not getting an answer does not equate to applicant 'not telling the entire truth'. Asking and only getting part of the answer does.

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Originally Posted by MengTze

I hear you. But not asking and thus not getting an answer does not equate to applicant 'not telling the entire truth'. Asking and only getting part of the answer does.

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ah, I must have read your post fast...a little bit tired right now. So what you are saying is if they don't even ask at all...right? I would have to agree with you there, its not like you should just come out sand say you dive at all...its their problem if they don't even ask. Chances are though, I bet on the application that "Do you scuba dive?" is right next to "Do you skydive?"

Every app I see has it on the 'Hazardous Activities" question..... Say yes. If they ask you more, then answer truthfully.

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Originally Posted by l31gc

ah, I must have read your post fast...a little bit tired right now. So what you are saying is if they don't even ask at all...right? I would have to agree with you there, its not like you should just come out sand say you dive at all...its their problem if they don't even ask. Chances are though, I bet on the application that "Do you scuba dive?" is right next to "Do you skydive?"

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See attached...

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Originally Posted by dgschott

Every app I see has it on the 'Hazardous Activities" question..... Say yes. If they ask you more, then answer truthfully.

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Originally Posted by l31gc

ah, I must have read your post fast...a little bit tired right now. So what you are saying is if they don't even ask at all...right? I would have to agree with you there, its not like you should just come out sand say you dive at all...its their problem if they don't even ask. Chances are though, I bet on the application that "Do you scuba dive?" is right next to "Do you skydive?"

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I normaly does yes

I have Allstate and it will cover cave diving after 2 years. But, I had the same problem trying to find life ins. My policy is for 500,000 and it is very reasonable (whole life).

As stated before does DAN offer legit life insurance?

Were you caved diving before you applied for the insurance? If you were, did you say so on your application? I would bet if you think your Allstate insurance will cover you after 2 years, you had an insurance agent tell you to lie on the app and you will be covered after the incontestability period. Or maybe your agent just didn't ask to make the sale, but either way, you better watch yourself on that one. The 2 year comment is regarding the incontestability period which doesn't cover fraud.

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Originally Posted by johnm

I have Allstate and it will cover cave diving after 2 years. But, I had the same problem trying to find life ins. My policy is for 500,000 and it is very reasonable (whole life).

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Nationwide placed a limit on ours at 130' and no cave diving. You would think with an office in the heart of cave counry they would understand the safety record among cave diving better than anyone.

It seems the questioning was abit backwards, my wife gets a better rate than I. She dives and only does about 30-50 dives a year, I do 200+ a year and have considerable more training, seems odd but thats the way life (insurance) is.

Riddle me this, why would they insure anyone who drove a vehicle on the highway and not insure cave divers??? We cave divers stand a better chance of dying in a fiery crash on the highway than dying in a cave.... :smt102

I would imagine there a couple of reasons. First - They don't have a lot of information on diving and especially cave diving. They know it is risky, and you're probably more likely to get killed in a cave diving accident vs. disabled. The one thing insurance companies hate the most is the unknown. If you ever get a chance to take a peak at the Suisse Re underwriting manual I would highly recommend it. Good luck picking it up, though. It literally has everything you could imagine. For example, if you have had a kidney stone, they know that will take a couple months off of your average life expectancy.

Second, the risks are additive. We as cave divers (or I imagine most of us) are driving PLUS cave diving, so our total risk is higher then that of a normal highway driver. Since they may not know the exact numbers because there isn't a large enough sampling size or data to cover cave diving, they just add a flat extra per thousand on depending on the individual underwriter.

Remember - Almost all insurance companies in the US use the Suisse Re underwriting standards and they pay (I believe 5) re-insurers to cover them. The re insurer audits the life insurance company on occasion and if they feel that the life insurance company is being too liberal on their underwriting, they will increase the expense to the life insurance company for their re-insurance. While individual insurance companies have some capability of the underwriting decision, they have to make sure that the re insurers will be ok with those decisions so they don't end up paying extra for their re-insurance.

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Originally Posted by cavediver256

Riddle me this, why would they insure anyone who drove a vehicle on the highway and not insure cave divers??? We cave divers stand a better chance of dying in a fiery crash on the highway than dying in a cave.... :smt102

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I've been wondering about this myself, so after reading the posts on this topic I decided to check into it. I have life insurance thru my employer. With a little extra $ I throw at it, it covers me for 3 times my annual salary. Not too bad. Anyway, as mentioned earlier on this thread, since it's thru my employer, there's no questions asked. I checked and I'm covered. Just that simple.

Nice to know. My wife still wasn't too excited about hearing that - she doesn't like to talk about it at all. But I feel better being responsible enough to make sure my family is taken care of in the event of my loss, whatever the reason. With the life insurance and other assets I've setup, if I die, they'll have enough to cover all debt with plenty to spare. And since my wife works, she'll be able to continue to live a nice lifestyle.

Everyone who does this sport and has a family should do their due diligence to insure their family is set in the event of an unfortunate exit from this world - whether it be cave diving or just driving down the road. Glad to see many are already doing this or looking into it.

Good job "chill". That was the whole point of my first message... Everyone should call their insurance rep and make sure you are covered. Then assess your level of debt and make your own decision as to whether or not it's worth the extra cost. In the event of an accident there really aren't words to describe the additional stress this could put your family through.

Wow, I certainly didn't expect all this chatter on what I thought would barely even get a response. That is exactly why I asked, I own my own business which uses expensive equipment that wears out routinely, and of course with that comes the overhead of debt, which I do not want to leave my family to deal with in the unfortunate event I make an error I cannot solve-I'm human. My financial life insurance will cover my debt, but I am the primary income earner and I would like to know my family doesn't have to take a major lifestyle hit, which is what I'm looking to cover for them.
Thanks for all the information, and I hope I possibly woke some others up to the fact that hey may not be covered while cave diving.

I have found one that omitted the scuba question all together. Now if you race,hang glide, moutain climb, bungee or have a private pilots license they have a problem, but they totally left out scuba so you can get over $1,000,000 of level term life 10,15, or 20 year. It is not a convertble plan but will give you some extra coverage. We also know getting to the dive maybe more dangerous than the dive.

Steve

failed to mention this is not available and all states and if you are a professional diver and do it for your occupation then I think they would get you possibly on the occupation question sinc eyou would be at highest risk just due to the numbers of dives,travel etc.

Steve

I did some checking and found you got lucky. I asked a brokerage manager to check out what they would offer and he saod at best an extra $2.50 to $5.00per thousand to cover a cave diver. This is actual better than some that offer no coverage or a waiver. I still have the best deal I have seen since they ask no scuba question.