If it is about the money, then why not charge frisbee players additional fees for the priviledge of playing frisbee. Charging additional fees to certain users depending on how they choose to use the park is discriminatory. There should be ONE fee if any fee at all.
For the minimal cost of the annual pass I feel it's a great deal. Many of them have benches and other diver friendly things. Most important is that they allow us to dive in most of them, it would be just as easy for them to say "no diving" and we would be SOL. I for one don't have a problem with the fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediver27
Absolutely correct! The fees we pay to dive in the Florida SPs are a bargin by any standard and we are fortunate to have a parks system that is so cave diver friendly.
The question was not whether you feel ok with paying the fee it was Why??? Is there a fee. The best guess answer is there is addition costs involved with allowing diving. the park staff has to police the activity. You could ask the same question about any additional fee charged. Why is there a fee to Camp? Same answer the addition man hours involved justify the fee. Government fees have alway been with us and always will. Get used to it and with the current state of the Florida Budget expect more or increased fees.
I forgot to mention If you buy an Annual pass there is no price increase If you bring friends and buy a Family pass everyone gets in on the pass.
Three points:
1) Price discrimination is a good thing on the whole. And the parks perform a useful social function. We divers get way more utility out of the parks - if I were consulting to them, I'd recommend they put the annual pass UP. It's not like demand would reduce as a result.
2) As others have pointed out, we're an expensive group to service. looking to the long run, we as a group should be WILLING to pay extra, to remain an important group for the parks and to be influential in their decisions.
3) You can always vote wtih your feet if you really think it's expensive. If you choose NOT to dive there, then they lose the revenue! I suspect however that none of us is likely to do that.
Now, what I'd like to see them do is price by option. For an extra $10, I get to dive solo. For another $10, I get to use a scooter. How much would most of you pay to use a scooter in Peacock? THAT would be useful price discrimination, and they'd make a fortune out of me for one! Right now I rarely dive there because I love diving solo. I know there are lots of others like me. It's costing them a lot of money.
...But... and this further complicates the issue... do we really want to find ways to make the parks more attractive? The more attractive a cave is, the more it gets used... and damaged. It's something of a conundrum.
Careful, it wasn't but a year or two ago there was pretty serious talk about raising the annual for cave divers to $100. I'm sure there are bean counters in Tallahassee that think the same as you..."It's not like demand would reduce as a result."Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
We are in a serious budget deficit here in FL.
Maybe we need resident and nonresident rates like most states have for fishing licenses?
I think it pays for the pickernik tables boo boo :)
(sorry I couldn't resist)
If I recall correctly, the pass is $80 for myself and my dad to get in year round (I think it's 1 pass per car load?). One day at Ginnie (including camping that night) is almost that, not that it's not worth it!
My guess for the cost is that places like Peacock would be almost unused if it weren't for divers (let's face it, Orange grove isn't the greatest swimming hole year round!), and the extra tables, platforms, warning signs, paying someone to check you in at places like itchtuknee and manatee, etc that go with allowing diving add up.
Just be glad that you get ot dive in State Parks. Come on up here and dive in ours, if you are lucky you will get to keep all your gear.
Remember that cost is to help many things out. With more and more getting into Cave Diving, there are more and more hours spent with money going out for all kinds of stuff that is not seen behind the blind so to speak.
I would have no problem to pay money to be able to dive up here. Even som of our state taxes go to our parks but many still have use fees depending on the kind of use. Like it was mentioned earlyer there are a base fee and then a use fee. Ok by me
SLIM
If you think the park fees are high, try taking up wreck diving :-)
I really don't see what the problem is, I mean 42 bucks for all the diving you can do in a year.....
What are everyones opinion on the cost of Ginnie specifically comparing tubers fees to divers fees? What amenities do divers get that the tubers do not for the increased fee? Curious...
Miranda
Fees will be going up shortly, that you can be guaranteed. If the parks were a business than I would agree with your logic behind price discrimination. The problem is that the parks are government owned, and therefore should not be run for profit. These sites survived for many years before the State of Florida took over and started charging various fees. I understand that usage fees may be needed to make improvements to the parks, pay for maintenance, and staff; however, there are no additional costs to the State when you exercise your right to scuba dive. Scuba diving is not a privilege. We don’t need a scuba police to run around making sure people don't die.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Just for your reference, Scuba diving in the Santa Fe River is FREE. You can dive Devil's Ear, Devil's Eye, Little Devil, Ginnie Spring, and all the others for free. Ginnie Springs Outdoors LLC has no authority to charge you money to dive there. They can charge you for accessing the sites via their privately owned property. But you can access the sites via river for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by cinder4320
I worked for the state park system a couple years ago. At that time there were 160 state parks. Only two turned a profit, all the others were losers. The access fees are only to slow the blood letting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
Out of curiosity, what were the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
First, I am a state park supporter and annual pass holder. I was an annual pass holder even before I moved to Florida. And I would pay more for the annual pass (but I do hope they don't raise the fees). In Arizona, they don't have annual passes. You pay each time you enter the park. And they have lots of state parks.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediver27
Okay, that aside, aren't the benches and diver friendly things at the parks donated and constructed through the volunteer efforts of cave divers? I'm not saying divers shouldn't pay the extra fee when paying by the day, but as a group we do enhance the parks, even if it's mainly for our own benefit.
The price is great for an annual pass.....................and I would be careful now especially with property tax reformation and the state going through some very serious budget discussions...................i.e., do you want an increase $$$$??? Certainly not I, but with posts like this, we might as well just jump up and down and waive our hands saying we want an increase.
My daughter just lost her job as a lifeguard working for local park in homestead...
looks like they will close the pool soon she says.. i guess it's cutbacks
LL
Homosassa Springs Wildlife State Park and a fishing pier...can't remember the specific name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I don't really "want" the extra service the parks provide. Volunteers and the cave agencies provide the lines, benches, docks, etc etc. The park does not provide any services specifically for divers except for nanny state policing as far as I can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I don't mean to come off as insulting to the park service and I am thankful for the access we have and the hard work people put into getting it, but I just want to pay my gate fee and be left alone to enjoy the park as I wish just like everyone else. I don't want a park ranger breathing down my neck because I said I would be out "around 3" and its 3:05 and I have not picked up my card. I don't want a park ranger enforcing rules against scooters or solo diving. I just want to be left alone, and I do not think I am alone in this.
I just had this strange image in my head of a group of tubers floating through the vertical fissure of Sweet Surprise in the Devil’s System. Yeah, I think I get more out that park than the non-cavers. I do agree that the cave is free, and it is only the access that they can legally charge for. Why more for divers?….. Because they can… And we keep paying…. Not too far from my home in Wisconsin there is even an open pit iron mine that charges a surcharge for divers. Though I still find it strange that Ginnie charges less for cave divers than open water divers…. In a place like Blue Springs in Jackson County, cavers most certainly subsidize the upkeep of that park, and it certainly is a nice park, but more important, it is a really nice cave, thus we pay. Sure there we have choices… We can either subsidize the upkeep of the park, or subsidize the lifestyle of a guy renting out pontoon boats. I suspect Peacock, for instance, would not be State Park if it weren’t for cave divers. Once I asked someone from Live Oak, Florida if she ever goes to Peacock Springs State Park. Her response was – “Why?, there are much more interesting places to go..”…. - KirkQuote:
Originally Posted by cinder4320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Yes, I agree.
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
I don't know . . . I just came to Florida on my second cave diving trip, and we paid fees everywhere, and I didn't mind. Parks cost money, even if the benches and such are donated. Parking lots cost money to install and grade, paving costs money, running water costs money . . . I thought the amenities in all the places we dove were lovely, compared with a lot of local diving I do at home where parking is the end of a dead-end street, gearing up is in the back of your car, and there isn't even a portapotty within a couple of miles.
Liability insurance for cave diving has got to be atrocious, too, which is something people often don't think about.
I believe cave divers installed the parking setup at Peacock. The parks with nice washrooms, running water, etc are that way because they cater to swimmers, canoers, campers (Madison Blue, Manatee Springs). The parks that cater to divers have much more spartan accommodations and what is there was paid for by cave divers (Peacock). A lot of people feel that "improvements" ruin the aesthetic of the site - see Little River for example. There is a lot of charm in a dive site where you have a clear patch of ground to park your car and then you clamber down into a sinkhole for a dive, charm that is getting lost in a lot of places with the spread of McCaveDiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
The state does not need to worry about liability for cave divers.
Private property like Ginnie can do whatever they wish and charge whatever they wish and restrict whatever they wish. People gladly pay 22$ a day to dive there because you can dive solo, dive your scooter, dive 24/7/365, and get treated like a customer and not a nuisance. The park service should not be driven by capitalistic concerns like "how much money can we soak the cave divers for".
Quote:
The mission of the Florida Parks Service is to provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources. Our goal is to help create a sense of place by showing park visitors the best of Florida's diverse natural and cultural heritage sites. Florida's state parks are managed and preserved for enjoyment by this and future generations through providing appropriate resource-based recreational opportunities, interpretation and education that help visitors connect to ...the Real Florida.
Hey Bob,Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
I didn't say they provided extra services. I said:
a) We get more utility than others - the parks are more beneficial to us than to somebody trying to keep their bored kid entertained for a few hours pretending that wandering around Peacock constitutes "quality family time";
b) We want to be influential in their future decisions.
I agree that they're a little too pushy about getting us out. This is the sort of thing that perhaps we can use our influence to affect.
Given that we contribute more to their revenue than any other group, perhaps we could persuade them to have silghtly more generous hours for us?
And perhaps we can convince them that this anti-scooter and anti-solo thing is mere prejudice? Which, seriously, it is.
...But this takes a a solid financial argument, and b) the support and influence of our organising bodies, i.e. NACD and NSS-CDS.
I thought the cave diving was part of the "recreational use" which included activities like canoes, night access or other unusual activities.
The old annual passes used to be divided up into entrance only or recreational use but they just combined them all into one category. The recreational pass used to be twice the entrance pass cost For now it's the same price so they only have one type of pass. Daily use still differentiates. I guess if you insist on paying extra for the annual pass also - you probably could get them to split it up again.
I'd like to think cave divers do an absolute minimum of damage. Most people just hiking around making foot trails and playing frizbee do more damage then cave divers who "theoretically" hover without touching anything. I get a funny vision of normal state park visitors forced to purchase balloons to enter and visit the park so they can float along without leaving foot trails. Then the reality of some 8 year old armed with a fallen stick beating on a tree trying to break the stick. Of course the reality of the cave divers may not always be up to my ideals either.
But if you think about all the boardwalks, benches, grills, bathhouses, etc installed for general visitors the cave divers don't really ask for much "extra". Cave divers are far more likely to show up to help the park with a clean-up day or environmental support, build their own benches, run their own lines, etc.
Not that I'm complaining about the price. Actually the price is the nice part. A fraction of what it costs to go to any of the commercial locations.
Mike, not to be antagonistic but I know more people that have had gear stolen at Ginnie than any other dive site, park, etc. combined. That is probably not a point I would use in arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
We have nobody to blame but ourselves for this one. There was a time you could dive right up to within minutes of closing as long as you were out of the park by closing. But slowly more and more divers pushed the time limit and rangers had to wait around well past closing time. Rangers want to go home too at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
When I worked at Lafayette Blue, they let me word the sign for divers. Because the closing hours constantly change [sunset], I had them put something like [paraphrasing here] "Divers must be out of the water half hour before closing."
I don't know what Lafayette is doing currently, they may have changed the rules.
BTW - The original question was "What is the point of charging divers additional fees at Florida State Parks"? If you buy an annual, you don't pay any more than anybody else.
They charge extra for more than just diving, sometimes. It surprising that fees are so inconsistent considering they're all operated by the state. I went into a state park in Miami (Oleta) to kayak and they didn't want to honor the annual pass I bought at Peacock. In the end, they agreed to let me in if I would pay an extra $1 for kayaking. I've never had this problem at other parks and that's the only place I've been charged extra for the kayak.
I agree that the dive police service offered at some of the parks has the potential to get outta' control. A little too much information can become dangerous. Next, they'll be approving gear configurations.
I agree, they all don't seem to be on the same page. Even when it comes to the annual passes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke
Anyway...just FYI for everybody
From this site ~ http://www.floridastateparks.org/annualpass/default.cfm
Annual Passes allow you to discover, experience and enjoy the beauty of Florida's State Parks for just pennies a day! (Local surcharges may apply.) Entrance passes are honored in all state parks, except Homosassa Springs Wildlife State Park and Skyway Fishing Pier State Park, where they are valid for a 33% discount. Annual passes also make wonderful gifts!
Camping not included.
Whining and complaining about this is pretty off IMO :
The State parks in Florida own the properties and as such protect them from being used for other purposes : water bottling plants, Industrial applications, tap water, or simply having industries getting there ...
The State Parks do preserve this unique environment for all of us to enjoy.
They are nice enough to give cave divers access. We as a community have convinced them that cave divers produce revenue and we got access to the caves. Lately we got access to places that have been off limits for years ...
Somebody in this thread mentioned MO.
I will mention Italy and France. It's so difficult to have free access to caves over there. Most of the caves are exploited for drinking water, owned by difficult individuals, or simply closed as the sites are too "dangerous". The caves that are left open not always have easy access. Sometimes you need to hike thousands of feet in a slippery dry cave before you can dive. Forget about pic-nic tables !
I am happy to pay a fee to the State Parks and enjoy access. I am happy to contribute to the NSS-CDS and make sure we keep access to the caves. I am happy I am able to cave dive in Florida and have easy access to all those caves.
YMMV but I think we are pretty lucky in Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke
Pat how interesting.
I had same at pennekamp, they let me in but told me that it didn't cover this extra unexplained $2 charge. how weird. Anyhow I hope my commercial pass works for pennekamp nobody has ever asked to see it LOL!!
LL
I don't consider what the State of Florida did to Little River as protection, quite the opposite really. They came in and shut down the park for an extended period of time, cut down many trees, paved a large area, changed the bank, charge a fee, and tell you what hours you can enjoy the park. This is not the "Real Florida", it is Disney World Florida. I don't understand the mindset of people that quiver to the demands of the state. Oh they let us breath the air, we should be thankful for the privilege. The State of Florida has confiscated access to many sites. Who does cave diving hurt that the State of Florida decides they must regulate it? Do you really want the government to protect you from yourselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubis
Since when is there a fee at LR?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
I would prefer the Little River model where you are either out by closing or they lock the gate behind you and you can deal with the sheriff, seems to work pretty well at LR. I would vastly prefer they don't lock the gate at all and you can dive whenever you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
I think the rangers would prefer that as well, but the boss [who gets to go home on time] thinks differently :yawinkle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
"Lock me in!" as long as I have gas and a couple sandwiches :-)
Ginnie Fees:
I would suspect the fees charged for cave diving at GSO reflect the liability insurance premiums that they pay. This was the reason for the ban on ATV's. Aside from their noise and recklessness, the liability issue forced the ban. As we all know, cave diving is a very high risk activity, and GSO needes to cover themselves in this very litagenous society....Ken
They banned ATVs?! Wow... when did that happen, recently? It will be a much nicer place to camp now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DogDiver
You could always go to a houseboat, with a 10' hole cut out in the middle of the living room, and park it right over the spring head. That would be the perfect retirement home :yawinkle:Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
I agree. I pay my anual park fee for where I wreck dive and if I don't shore dive then I also pay like 85-90.00 a day for a charter boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
I have done the math and it is cheaper to drive from Canada stay a week in Fl and go cave diving (park pass included) then it is to do one weekend of trimix diving up here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
After wreck diving in the Great Lakes for 38 years prior to moving down here....it aint cheep to wreck dive unless you have your own boat. Then you really get expensive....I've never gotten seasick at a cave diving site....lol.....Ken
$40 /year.............dive as much as you can, and you guys complain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
Some would fuss if you hung them with a new rope....:? Just think of how much hell they would raise if they banned cave diving in all state parks.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
Conditions are bad. Have to complain about something........
Yeah... for $40 bucks you would think they could do something about the river intrusion. Do we get a credit for the weeks we can't dive? By my calculations, I should get 10 cents back for every day that the system is blown out. :)
Apparently you people are content to accept the scraps of remaining "freedom" that the government will allow you to buy. It is sickening to hear you talk favorably about public parks being run like a business. It reeks of communism. Fees will be increased shortly. Listen to yourselves when you say "at least they let us dive!" That sounds pathetic. What happened to this country? We use to be free.
You need to read up on Marx and Engels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard!! Were you being serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
FYI, Communism is the one where services get provided to you for "free" (through massive taxation). Capitalism is the one where you pay for things as you use them.
It's a while since someone called me a communist. That's just hilarious.
Dude...Wal-Mart is now selling most prescription medicine for $4. Go refill your meds!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
http://www.caveline.com/pics/PASS.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
That is so politically incorrect Mike.
You have a man in a Maoist uniform, holding a USSR dive pass against a Japanese rising sun background. I mean, Jeez Mike, I thought you knew better!
:-) ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
Huh?
Let me ask again.
Huh?
:) I think people have already done a good job pointing out that in a communist society, the parks would be free for everyone but our taxes would be higher. And they've already said that in a capitalistic society, government would be run more like a business. And it's already been mentioned that you ought to read up on your communist manifesto and on other fine publications by such crazies as Marx and Engels, so I won't say anything more.
(I just bought a year's pass, and wish I'd done it sooner. I'd be able to afford more equipment :( )
And we would be standing in the air line for 8 hours for a fill :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior
Maybe not to ones liking, but far from crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior
Dismissing others as crazy when not subscribing to their views is doing injustice to yourself, your insight and forming.
From an economists standpoint, their ideas on economics don't work out in real life. Atleast, my understanding of the economic teachings and beliefs of socialism leads me to believe that their economic ideas are flawed. I have not studied them extensively, and I did not mean to imply that I had. Certainly, they were well meaning individuals. That does not change the fact that, as best as I understand it,almost no communist country has ever prospered. I have studied them somewhat and have great respect for them. They were wrong on many counts but right on some, and I did not mean to suggest that I had ever done extensive studies into their writings, or am qualified to write on them. Furthermore, I did not do much to slam them, my comment was a jest, made in jest, on an internet forum. I did not intend to begin a discussion on their writings in any way shape or form, nor did I intend to unduly insult them. As I said: it was intended to be a comment made in jest, not the main point of my post, or to be taken extremely seriously, and I apologize if you feel that I am doing them an injustice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
Not to mention, we'd have no nitrox or trimix: the people who invented those would have been kicked out or killed for sure. And when we did have air (which might be every few months, if we were lucky), it wouldn't be that nice, Grade E stuff. We'd also probably be using alumium 80s from the 60's, and we'd have to teach the skill of breathing without a reg for sure, as not all of us could afford to have regs.... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
(that diver pass image is going to be a computer background....that's just too crazy, and funny! )
I have read Karl Marx's Communist manifesto. You should read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal." Obviously you don't understand capitalism if you are promoting government ownership of property. The United States has already adopted half of Marx's tennets of communism. Your two main choices for president in the coming election will be Warmonger McCain or a SOCIALIST democrat. Freedom for an individual can only exist under capitalism. What we have in this country is not capitalism. The government has intervened in every aspect of the market. This government intervention causes problems that are blamed on capitalism and they use it as an excuse to expand the government with more intervention which only compounds the problems. When did the government gain the power to tell you whether or not you can dive? Its total BS, and I thought you would understand but I guess its true what they say that ignorance is bliss.Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
Isn't it dangerous to dive if it's dark outside? :smt081Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
Dude, go read the line you posted that I quoted. You HAVE to admit that claiming that a market economy is communism is funny. I'm sure you didn't quite mean it that way, but it came off really funny.
As to government owning land - you DO realize that if Peacock was privately held, it would either cost you a lot more or be inaccessible. Are you sure that's what you want? I suspect you want to have your cake and eat it... you want MORE socialist use of that land, i.e. "free" unfettered use, which means that taxpayers (who don't care about diving) get to foot the bill for our pleasure.
And I have NO idea how Peacock's pricing policy has anything to do with McCain et al. Let's stick with the topic in hand - how do you justify free access to land under strict capitalism? Please remember when answering that you just told us tht we don't understand capitalism if we are promoting government ownership of land... so you've backed yourself into an interesting logical corner there!
Yes we used to be free to kill the family who lived upstream from us because papa done dammed up the creek for his corn crop and dried up our water supply. Now thanks to government regulations and the permitting process there is oversight to prevent our society from turning into the tribal regions of Waziristan. Society has rules and we are all the better for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
Listen, I'm as libertarian as just about anyone and I resent government interference in my life but by the same token you have to have a certain amount of policing and rules. Little River is a good example of true freedom at work. Drugs, drunkeness, fights, booming stereos, thievery, vandalism, and all around boorish and obnoxious behavoir. And not a Sheriff's deputy in sight.
Here's the deal, If I'm not "free" to take a baseball bat to someones obnoxcious brain pan, or drop a hand grenade through their window to show them what a real boom sounds like they shouldn't be free to raise hell, throw trash around and all around make public nuisances of themselves while I'm trying to have a peaceful day at the park. Total freedom = anarchy and I for one am willing to "fund" a little law and order and a little peace and quiet. I'm looking forward to visiting Little River State Park with my dirt cheap park pass. In spite of it's imperfections the current system is still better than most of the alternatives.
By the way, have you ever noticed that the same people who refer to themselves as "Anarchist" are the same people who would end up at the bottom of the food chain should they ever get their wish?
Well that's my rant for the weekend. I gotta get up early to try and catch a "slot sized" Redfish. Damn those F.F.W.C.C. spoil sports. :roll:
Little river's "culture" amazes me every time. I wish there was a way to stop that group of the population from breeding. The no alcohol law is a running joke at that place, even 16 year olds feel free to get hammered by splitting a 24 back of natty ice in front of everyone. Makes me wonder a) where are the parents? (I'm guessing drunk as well), and b) Where are the cops? (I've yet to figure this out).
I was not promoting anything, merely pointing out that your claim to communism was not entirely in line with the ideals of its foremost fathers. But now that we are on the point of ignorance is bliss, yes it is. And blissful are the ignorant. Blissful in their own thoughts, world and ideas thereof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
PS Isn't the second amendment in place to ensure that the standing militia can overthrow the government when it becomes too overbearing? I guess we will see you on the barricades soon? Or do you only bark?
And things are going to change?!?!? I don't agree with everything you posted, but I also don't think the government does everything right. In fact, I have a problem with a lot of the things they do. However, I haven't found a country that's any better. If you know of one let me know. As long as there are caves there, I may move...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
It wasn't put there so I can go duck hunting. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
I thought it was put there to create debate!Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
My goodness...a much better comparison would be Das Kapital with Smith’s Nature and Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations. He, Smith that is, certainly spent a lot ink developing the role for government in the light of what are called market failures. The pertinant one here is the case of a public good/common property resource. Ayn Rand is also better understood in Atlas Shrugged where she lays out her philosophy. Who is John Gault? BillQuote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
You know the great thing about America, no one is forcing you to pay the park fees. I for one think the $42 annual state park pass is a bargain. If they doubled it, I would gladly pay it. Simply put, if you don't like the price, don't pay it, go somewhere else and dive.
Democratic governments tend to be over responsive to worried parents.
If open water diving weren't regulated by dive shops and charter operators, the fatality rate would probably be so high that state legislatures or Congress would ban it.
Buford Sink and Eagle's Nest are regulated by difficult access.
The road and picnic tables make Peacock and Madison Blue very easy to access. Without rangers, they would attract open water divers who would kill themselves. (I once watched the guard at Ginnie try to explain why a hookah pump is not a snorkel to a pair of swimmers who failed 9th grade general science.) The result would be a total ban on cave diving. Swimmers would still sneak in and kill themselves, but real cave divers would be conspicuous enough to be stopped.
WoooHoo! Marx, Engels, Ginnie Springs and Florida State Parks--All in one thread! But seriously folks, we enjoy access to public lands here in Florida that most other parts of the country would envy. Not just dive sites, but bike trails, birding paths, campgrounds, and so on. And yes, most of us who live here would like to see the "disneyficaton" of our springs halted. It is a fine line we walk--improvements provide disabled access to these springs, and yes, a more developed infrastructue. But the good outweighs the bad in many respects. More people swimming in, picnicking at and enjoying our natural beauty may lead a new generation of state park patrons to appreciate and protect our precious water resources here in North Florida.
Also, a great many of the staff at the smaller sites are volunteers. Retirees mostly. Our continued access to these wonderful cave diving sites may just depend on our attitudes, behaviors, and our diplomacy when interacting with law enforcement (River Cops!), rangers and volunteers. Remember each one of us represents the entire community of cave divers. We have worked very hard to have positive relationships with the state, water management districts, and private property owners to gain and maintain the access we enjoy.
Until that giant sink opens up between our house and Wes's (please, please) the state park sites are the best bargain we have. With respect--Robert