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I think this is fairly recent or at least the first time I've taken note of it. The black shell rock covering the floor from about 1900-2100' has been torn up off the floor exposing clay and the clay now marked with fin and drag marks. Looks like swimmers have attempted to pull and glide thru this area for a couple hundred feet with heavy damage.
Lovely, just lovely!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
I'm waiting for everyone to post about breaking eggs to make an omelette, and that it's ok to dig in the clay in the name of exploration!
Unbelievable! http://thedecostop.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif
Leave bubbles, take pictures, and kill nothing but time! What the hell happened to that? Don't they teach it anymore? or is it now, Carry more stages, grab rocks till the break and dig through the clay to get through!
Whatever, you guys know my position on this! http://thedecostop.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif
and touch nothing but water!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston
it's not rocket science, so what is going on? who are these people? how do we get the message across? I vote for signs that explain the natural fragile beauty of the world you are about to enter.
"This spring connects to an underwater cave system. Please respect the natural fragile beauty of the world you are about to visit. Treat it with kindness and respect. Please stay on paths, dive in designated areas, leave no marks, and please put your litter in provided receptacles. Divers please maintain proper buoyancy, refrain from pull and glide, follow proper line etiquette. Above all, please remember your credo: Leave nothing but bubbles, take nothing but memories, kill nothing but time, and please add: touch nothing but water. -Thank You"
Perhaps also adding a guest sign-in book in a kiosk may help satisfy those who must let the world know that they've been here.
-skip
That's actually not a bad idea at all. I have seen very ornamented sign in books at some new-mexico caves (dry), and some trails in Scotland. People seem to get very creative in those books.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Also, I'm all for the sign. :armybravo
Since when did pull and glide become a no no?
Pulling on the same sturdy walls in the same place people have been pulling for 30 years is different than pulling on a nearly untouched floor and pulling it up. If I remember correctly, this place has a lot of black and tan rocks tiling the floor like a tortoise shell, each one having interesting patterns on it. Very sad if it has been damaged.
First the sign.
The first hundred times at Ginnie I have never read the WARNING sign that they have, and someone said that they have a WARNING sign like Ginnie at the Nest, after being there about fifteen times I still don’t know where its at?
Sorry but I think the sign is worthless!!
My opinion is that the only thing that is going to help protect the cave is tougher training standards!!!!
Zero to Hero HAS GOT TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!
This is one of the coolest parts of the main line in Ginnie, especially if you're swimming. You've just swam down the gallery, thru the lips, down into the cornflakes, then on down the main line past the dunes, etc. Just as you're starting to get tired, the cave goes from light to dark, like you entered another system.
The bottom in this area is fragile, and swimming thru this area is really cool. Hopefully the damage was an isolated event and doesn't become the norm, as this took probably a couple million years to form and mature into what it is today.
Mark
The attention alone attracts..........Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
'Isn't it great to read the emotions, anger and scurrying around by investigators to find the perpetrators?' "Look DIC, I now too have a posse after me and my signs are deeper into the cave" "What's your next move PULGA?"
This community wears their hearts on their sleeves, and maybe still thinks mankind is inherently good...........
It doesn't look like an isolated event. I don't think a single team of divers would have ripped up that much floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mfascuba
What I don't understand is how a formation that takes millions of years to form and survived generations of appreciative cave divers can suddenly, in a few months (at most), become fair game for divers who clearly care nothing for the cave.
Or maybe I do understand. It only makes sense that those who tore up Double Lines in the last few years would now be pushing further boundries... DIC is a symptom of a far larger problem that has already been passed on as certified Full Cave divers years ago - that simply don't care or don't know any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
i think you nailed that one unfortunately.cave register and or submittal of a proposed cave dive plan might help.imho educational signage is not lost on all.
i still say at a minimum...membership in nss and nss cds or nacd coupled with a year probation where the diver would have to have participated in cleanups/education seminars/project grunt work before allowed to dive sites ie prove they care ..well other than those designated for training.hardcore yes but many rare and intact wrecks have severe pre requisites and they have a lifetime that is but a small blip on the lifetime of a cave and the rare formations etc.while many feel it is a right to explore i once again say it is not a ballpark we are talking about.rather a rare resource that takes 1000 of years to form.
and yes when i trained i was taken in various systems but i would have happily agreed to a prove you care about the caves probationary timeframe.at least back then most training were looking to learn how to explore/map and many systems were not shared until someone was known better or someone vouched for them...much like the very much more informed dry caving realm.
while i expect flames for this post . i worry that if something large does not change...caves will be closed for all which would be a huge loss.i hope you all can find some way to stop this horrid defacement going on.
ps i apologize for my typing.i am operating the net under sedation and devious medical bondage devices are applied.
Disturbed bottom with fin marks sounds like a diver in distress. It could be accidental damage. which would make it unavoidable.
Yeah its funny. If you read alot of these damage response threads you would think many of these divers have never touched the cave on accident much less on purpose (pull and glide). Then you turn around and read trip reports and people talk about beat up fingers from pulling and gliding.
So which is it - do you touch nothing but water? Or do you like most of us pull and glide in high flow utilizing points that look rubbed clean already?
So utilizing the same pull and glide spots for 30 years. What about 30 years ago? Its my understanding that us newbies are poorly trained and don't respect the cave. You mean pull and glide was done by the masters in virgin cave? Shocking! How about the fin tip push on the ceiling in "blueprint"?
Personally I don't think its a systemic problem. Of course I'm biased I'm a new cave diver, but I think my instructor did a good job talking about cave conservation. Even if he didn't I think the average idiot knows that ripping up the cave is bad. I think its probably a few bad apples in the bunch. Unfortunately the caves are quite fragile and a few bad apples can do alot of damage.
Pull and glide isn't bad, it just has to be used with common sense. Common sense would tell someone to gently use a solid outcrop of rock to pull and not act like a roto-rooter in a clay floor :)
Heck, when I did my full cave in Missouri, I did TERRIBLE on my first day because I was so afraid to touch the cave. You have to hold onto stuff in certain caves or sections of them, otherwise you just aren't moving. During one dive, I literally had to bury both of my hands/arms in a gravel floor and I *still* was getting drug out of the cave. To get into Roubidoux, you grab onto whatever you can, press the back of your head against the ceiling and generally try to contact the entrance as much as you can while crawling in. But once you get in...don't touch the fragile stuff.
So my husband and I were talking and along the same lines of cave conservation and had a question. We did the night dive at Peacock Springs on New Years Eve. On the exit past the peanut tunnel, we noticed the glow stick innards all along the gold line area. My husband even found a piece of broken glow stick in the cavern. As we exited and commented on the "accident" and how it wasn't good but had looked kinda cool (still assuming it was an accident), someone mentioned the "Galaxy Dive".
Further research and from posts on this very forum and we realized the components of glow sticks were purposefully dispersed both at Peacock and Ginnie for the "cool" effect. This was cavers doing this on purpose. How is adding possibly harmful chemicals considered okay??
The Average Joe Blow might stop and think dumping chemicals into groundwater is bad but wouldn't think touching rock or clay in a passage was. Am I missing something in thinking that if we as a community believe in cave conservation it should be at all times and not forgotten because something looks cool or fun.
Miranda
Not to mention the fact that dihydrogen monoxide has been found in every spring, lake, and river in Florida.Quote:
Originally Posted by cinder4320
So has dinosaur pee...seriously, I read a very interesting and amusing article about this several years back. It was more a theory but well written. I need to try and find it to post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
But I digress...back to the "other hijack" about glow sticks. I was in the Peanut tunnel just three days ago and saw something sparkling like a diamond. Closer observation, it was a broken ampule from a glow stick.
PS Sludge...you're all wet, lol
:) !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I seem to remember from my biology classes that all of the water on the planet has been through someone's (or something's) kidneys at least once!Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Mike
These guys are good, but you guys are funnier! Video says it all. /KQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw
Now that was funny! And to think our cave systems are filled with that stuff!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
you have no idea how apt and ironic this video in this forum is...............all the hippies jumping on the bandwagon to belong, to sign up...........I remember a thread not too long ago about some carvings and a reward being signed up all over the place.....Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediver27
I think the agencies need to re-evaluate the way we teach pull & glide. Yes we all have to use it occasionally, but there is a difference between using it out of necessity and using it to conserve energy. I saw a video on the deco stop where a diver was doing the sweet surprise/ Mainland circuit at Devils Eye. The guy actually mentioned that there were hand holds for pulling and gliding. FYI; There are not, Nor have there ever been, hand holds for pulling and gliding in this tunnel. This is an advanced dive, and if you can't do it without P&G, then your probably not ready for it. The thing that bothered me was that people were telling him how good his technique was. I'm sure he is probably a great guy, and a good diver. He just didn't know any better. Instructors need to stress that it is a technique of last resort. Maybe we could discuss it at the agency workshops. I know we all impact the caves in some way when we dive, but I personally feel that one of the best yardsticks for measuring a divers skill level is how much They impact the cave. I'm not nearly as impressed by how far or how deep someone goes as much as I am by how they do it. What gets me is it seems to be the macho guys that get the most defensive about it. Think about the name. "Pull & glide". The fact is, if you can glide after you pull, you probably didn't really need to pull. It is just a matter of convenience. It was one thing when there were just a few cave divers. With the crowds we have now, it's just too much. End of rant. Flame on!
Gene - Good first post. I have been trying to figure out a way to say what you just said. I couldn't agree with you more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Powell
I've told this very short story before, I'll do it again.
I was standing on the stairs at P1 when a team surfaced. After some chit-chat back and forth within the group, one said... "I'm not coming back here, there's no place to pull & glide"
P&G in Peacock!?!...give me a break. Anybody that feels they need to P&G in Peacock needs to reevaluate their skill set, even the Peanut tunnel. A skilled diver should be able make it through the Peanut Tunnel with very little contact. A highly skilled diver can make it through there with no contact.
That said, given a choice between the two, I would rather a diver "gently" P&G in the Peanut Tunnel than beat the crap out of the ceiling with their doubles.
Note: I never claimed to be either skilled or highly skilled ;-)
We have a good amount of newly certified divers that don't know what real flow is. Wait untill LR starts blowing again :smt077
Thanks Mike. Yeah, I consider myself a very average diver, but even I can make it through the peanut tunnel without pulling, or scraping the ceiling. Of course it helps being in sidemount. I do agree with your statement and realize that a lot of training goes on in that tunnel. Beginners have an excuse(as long as they don't try to push it).I think I met you a while back at lafayette blue when you worked there. I was camping with my family, and we talked a little bit about diving. Take care.
"Knowledge speaks, Wisdom listens"
I have always enjoyed pull and glide just for the pleasure of it. There is something about getting a good solid grip, giving a heave-ho, and taking off like a rocket! then again with the other hand, and you are as close to scootering as you can get without a scooter. I would actually go looking for those flat no-silt rock bottoms just so I could pull and glide. it's a rush! sure, sometimes I'd slip and pull a knob of rock loose, but it seemed like such a small thing. The only time I recall having to pull and glide was in Little River, and then it was pull and pull, no glide to it.
Telford was pull and glide heaven. I would zoom through there (back where it's rock, not so much silt).
After my training I really didn't see anything wrong with pull and glide for the fun of it; I was taught to use the flat of my hands, not grab with fingers, in order to not damage the cave, but I would still reach out instinctively and grab from time to time and then say "Oh, damn" to myself when a knob of rock would break off.
These forum posts have really begun to make me ashamed of my past behavior and reluctant to admit that I've done my share of damage. I've made promises to contribute $$ to education signs, if NSS/CDS or NACD cares to set up the account and do the work of creating and posting them (guilt money).
-skip
I'm sort of sick of hearing about that freaking video but I have to agree with you... so even as one of the perpetrators of the heinous crime of making a video (albeit as filmer, not editor or placer of titles like "pull and glide here" - or even worse, advertising someone's cave map - or worser still - showing film of those places - or worserer stil... OK, I've run out but I wanted to say worserer...)
... What was I saying? Oh that's right, I agree, pull-and-glide = grab-and-drag = bad.
Now the serious part. Any way we could convince ALL the agencies to teach "pull and glide" as a BAD thing only to be done a) when all else fails, and b) accompanied by a strong sense of remorse/guilt?
These last few posts have been very interesting reading for me. I came to Florida for the first time in December, having done my cavern and Intro classes in Mexico (where there is, of course, little or no flow, and nobody would ever even DREAM of pulling on ANYTHING). My first cave dives in Florida were done in the Devil's system, and although I loved being in the caves, I didn't enjoy the dives very much, because I felt so desperately guilty about the amount of cave contact I was forced to use (and this was despite diving with experienced people familiar with the cave, and trying very hard to follow all their advice). In fact, I felt so bad that I've arranged to work with an instructor on our next trip, because I just felt there HAD to be a way to do better than I did.
Say whatever you will about GUE and DIR divers, that's where I got the guilt complex from :)
Andrew, I'm sorry I used the video as an example. I truly didn't mean to point fingers, or blame anyone. We all share the blame. I certainly have no right to talk down to anyone about this. I am also afraid that if we get too extreme in our positions about the whole contact with cave thing, we will alienate the only people that can Break this habit. Cave divers. What I hope can happen is that this intelligent, resourceful group can come together, brainstorm, and find a way to solve a problem that not only is diminishing the natural beauty and health of the very caves we are so passionate about, but to do so before the State does it for us. I should also say that cave divers as a group, are the absolute best at protecting the resource we enjoy, and are an asset to the state park system. We just need to look ahead and make adjustments as we grow.
Take care, Gene Powell
" If your not a part of the solution, then your a part of the problem"
Hey Gary...actually sitting at devils at the moment...went by this area yesterday and today looking for the damage. I must say i do see some areas where the rock is broken and some brown clay exposed for about 10 feet or so...spent some time scootering back and forth in the area of the sweet surprise jump and the entire area where that black bubbly rock is. While there is damage here and there it did not look recent or significantly different from what i was familiar with. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Hey Gene, no offence taken. I really do agree with your point, quite strongly. And Terry knows I disagree with him on this.
Regards,
Andrew
That's just plain wrong...cyber diving between real dives. Careful, your probably dripping water on your keyboard :yawinkle:Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
I scootered back there today and had to stop and look around for the damage. I think I saw a couple of places where the bottom had been disturbed, one set of prints where some fingers had been. Perhaps someone went in and repaired all the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
lol...nope just spending the night in my van at devils...nice to be first in in the am although it is cold and rainy here now....if you want to see some damage take a trip through the short beetle tunnel (just out of the roller coaster on the left and connects to the hillier)...what a mess, rock fragments handprints, kneeprints and in one spot on the gold line side it looks like a full body print. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Perhaps you were looking in the wrong place, perhaps the reported actual 'damage' was initially inflated beyond reality...... who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt