Cave Damage at Little River!!!

http://thedecostop.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gifUGH!http://thedecostop.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif

I was diving little river 2 days ago, and in the serpentine tunnel, there was fresh serious rock damage of the lower tunnel plane where it meets with the clay. By all accounts, it looks like someone was trying to Nomount a 12" x12" hole, and broke off a 10" piece of the tunnel. Not being satisfied with that, they tried it again next to it and broke an even biger piece off a second formation.

When our team went in around 4:30, there was only 1 team in the system, and they passed us in sidemount right after the chimmney. Now I am not accusing them of doing this, but the system was so blitzed out, that I had to basically do a line drill to find the shute! We had at best 3' of vis!!! This continued until we hit the damage at the serpentine tunnel, and past that the vis was great!

The damage was so fresh, that the fresh silt had not even had a chance to settle on the bone white fractures.

I just talked with John, and he's going to take some pictures and post them tomorrow night.

People, this has got to stop. Sidemounting does not give you the right to destroy the friggin cave! I choose to sidemount because it MINIMIZES the damage that backmount would do in certain areas. For pete's sake, use some common sense!

ever been dry caving?

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Originally Posted by defunct

ever been dry caving?

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Uh... yes I have. And I don't use stalagtites as handholds, drive spikes in flowstone, or break off formations.

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Uh... yes I have. And I don't use stalagtites as handholds, drive spikes in flowstone, or break off formations.

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Have you ever heard of a dry caver "digging" a hole?

If not, you should read the NSS Publications.

Mike,
Sidemounting (or even backmounting or no-mounting) isn't what damages the cave. It's the individual, and it's not limited to a particular gear configuration.

Also, you'll find many, varying, opinions as to what is "needless damage" and what is "exploration". If an entrance to going tunnel is barred by a 10" piece of rock, should that tunnel be forever closed to exploration?

I respect the caves, and enjoy the pristine beauty of the ones with little evidence of humans. However, I'm also realistic and know that some areas, wet or dry, are only accessible after a bit of digging.

Shirley

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Originally Posted by defunct

Have you ever heard of a dry caver "digging" a hole?

If not, you should read the NSS Publications.

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Well, I guess I need to read up then. I like to leave any cave as though I had never been in it. I do realise that sometimes damage is inevitable, but the damage at Little river was blatant.

If you feel like you want to condone these actions, then go ahead. I don't like to see caves broken up, graffitied, or scooter trenched! Maybe I'm the exception!

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Well, I guess I need to read up then. I like to leave any cave as though I had never been in it. I do realise that sometimes damage is inevitable, but the damage at Little river was blatant.

If you feel like you want to condone these actions, then go ahead. I don't like to see caves broken up, graffitied, or scooter trenched! Maybe I'm the exception!

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I did not say that I condone any actions. Just asking a few questions.

What if the damage had taken place the day before by some guy flying through the cave with a DPV?

I was a "dry" caver for years before taking up diving. It is true that destructive activities in attempting to make a lead "go" are much more common in dry caving than in cave diving.

The fact that it happens doesn't mean that it is right or universally accepted. Some cavers feel that either something goes or it doesn't, and if it doesn't you shouldn't be damaging the cave trying to make it go. Others feel that anything from hammers & crowbars to dynamite are fair methods for pushing a lead. In the middle are those who feel that digging out sand, clay, and loose rocks blocking a tube is OK, but that damaging solid rock or formations is not. I can see the argument for thoughtfully removing a small amount of rock in order to open up big cave beyond, but overall I incline toward the first school of thought. Don't be busting up the cave trying to go where you don't fit!

Mike

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Originally Posted by defunct

I did not say that I condone any actions. Just asking a few questions.

What if the damage had taken place the day before by some guy flying through the cave with a DPV?

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it's not in an area that would be hit by a DPV, or a diver with stages. It is down, to the left, and recessed. The thing is, that it's just a hole in the wall, it goes nowhere. You can reach it from the other side.

I understand exploration, and the damage caused by pushing a system through restrictions (for the greater good). But needless destruction of a formation for the hell of it, makes no sense to me, and really pisses me off!

Again, I am not accusing those guys from making the damage, for all I know they could have blitzed out the system playing with the catfish. I just found it odd that the "sandstorm" of silt, stopped right at the damage.

Whatever, I am just reporting what I saw. You guys get pissed, and start a reward when someone writes their name in the clay, but I get told to go and do some reading when I see broken formations, and damage to rocks!

Jeesh.....

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5687

As far as I'm concerned if a passage can be done by that person with no damage it's going passage for them. If not they should stay out.

If you leave it up to each diver whether it is OK to damage the cave for them to do what they want then the entire cave is open to damage. Passages that should never be touched are destroyed by people who have no business being there.

Leave the cave the way it was before you got there and the caves will be there for everyone and the passages you aren't good enough to do will still be there when you are good enough.

If no one is good enough then no one should be in there. There should be no one digging, scraping or dragging - and absolutely no one breaking off pieces of the cave.

I guess most of you haven't been to Mexico? There are secondary formations there (stalactites, etc.) that have been broken by the original explorers to get into massive tunnel that wouldn't be reachable any other way. Thousands of "tourist" divers have gone through the passages to see the beauty beyond the damage. Somehow I suspect the damage in Little River wasn't actually intentional.

My first dive was at noon on the 1st and the damage you are speaking of was there at that time. I went up the merry-go-round and back the serpentine and saw it then. I remember thinking to myself "Wow, that sucks". I was trying to figure out how someone could have been so careless to have that happen, it wasn't a minor bump.

Regardless of equipment configurations or diving style, if you don't fit, you don't fit! Trying to ram your way though delicate/sensitive areas without regard for the cave is irresponsible at best.

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Originally Posted by FW

that wouldn't be reachable any other way.

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They could never know that and there is always another way. They just chose the most expedient route to get where they wanted to go - and destroyed cave formations in the process. Perhaps they gave it significant investigation before they decided to go ahead but it wasn't the only way. There could be surface access. A new surface access could be found, or dug. There could be any number of undiscovered passages leading into any area from almost anywhere.

It is also a bad example. What one diver can do another can also. Whenever a diver feels they need a better route they can just bash a new passageway open because they either didn't know a better route or felt it was too difficult. And why not? that's the way the original explorers did it didn't they?

That is the same thinking that has gotten much of the Devil's and many other systems damaged. Wanting to see the next spot they destroy the passages leading there to get to it - and they believe it is OK. In fact they are destroying the cave for their own immediate satisfaction.

Wherever people go with this thinking the cave is damaged and destroyed. Instead of requiring of themselves and others a damage free approach so the caves are explored without ruining them. Better yet, uninhibited by concern for the damage they do, they can explore much farther and spread their damage far and wide before anyone gets there ahead of them.

No one should be thinking that whatever they are interested in doing is so important that damaging the cave to do it is condonable. Preventing cave damage so that they and others can return repeatedly with as little damage as posiable serves everyone's interests far better.

Not a great first impression when the state takes over the park in approx 6 months.

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Originally Posted by FW

I guess most of you haven't been to Mexico? There are secondary formations there (stalactites, etc.) that have been broken by the original explorers to get into massive tunnel that wouldn't be reachable any other way. Thousands of "tourist" divers have gone through the passages to see the beauty beyond the damage. Somehow I suspect the damage in Little River wasn't actually intentional.

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Is this the official stance of the CDS?

I agree with Gary- too much damage in too short a time by divers who don't care or don't know any better.

JR

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Originally Posted by johnnyrichards

Is this the official stance of the CDS?

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It isn't a "stance" at all, just a statement of fact. Check my signature line :-)

It amazes me that when a concerned diver posts about damage to the cave how many people come out with the BS of exploration, dry cavers digging, cutting one or two formations in Mexico to get to huge going cave. Mike was reporting blatant cave damage by some idiot(s) doing something incredibly stupid.

What happened to "Leave nothing but bubbles, take nothing but pictures....................."?

I know where Mike is talking about; it is a tiny hole that goes nowhere and only a complete f____g moron would think any exploration could be done.

It is well past time for cave divers to wake up and realize what could happen. The state folks read these forums. Everybody bitches about the numbers policy at Manatee; how would you like to see that at Peacock and Little River???

And yes I have laid more line than most and NO I have not broken formations or plowed through a cave bank to get to going cave.

Jerry

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Originally Posted by Jerry

Everybody bitches about the numbers policy at Manatee; how would you like to see that at Peacock and Little River???

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This could be reality due to wear and tear in the cave system. Carrying capacity is a common approach when for example a trail gets too much attrition,no different for a cave system.

Lining up at 7AM and waiting an hour at the ranger station just to get turned away would put quite the damper on a cave diving vacation.

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Originally Posted by Jerry

It is well past time for cave divers to wake up and realize what could happen. The state folks read these forums. Everybody bitches about the numbers policy at Manatee; how would you like to see that at Peacock and Little River???

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Maybe it would be best for someone to report the damage to a cave conservation organization rather then posting it on a public forum. Personally, I feel that posting things like this (whether intentional or unintentional damage) on a public forum is just about as bad as simply drafting up an email to the head of the State Parks, DEP, Water Management Districts and proclaiming the damage seen to them.

It will not help us (cavedivers) when we are asking for a system to be opened up for diving.

Personally, I am kind of tired of seeing the posts in such a public place... then again, what do I know?

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Originally Posted by defunct

Maybe it would be best for someone to report the damage to a cave conservation organization rather then posting it on a public forum. Personally, I feel that posting things like this (whether intentional or unintentional damage) on a public forum is just about as bad as simply drafting up an email to the head of the State Parks, DEP, Water Management Districts and proclaiming the damage seen to them.

It will not help us (cavedivers) when we are asking for a system to be opened up for diving.

Personally, I am kind of tired of seeing the posts in such a public place... then again, what do I know?

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Or maybe it shows that us cavedivers are activelly concerned about the conservation in the systems, and we want to minimize the impact by educating those that don't know any better! Maybe, by bringing this up in a public forum, more individuals will keep an eye out for vandalism or outright damage.

Then again, what do I know, I still have to go read the NSS book on digging through flowstone!

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Originally Posted by defunct

Maybe it would be best for someone to report the damage to a cave conservation organization ...................

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What cave conservation organizations?? The only organizations I know of are for training; they teach that crashing along the ceiling is bad because of the roll-off potential and not because of the damage to the cave!

Jerry

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Originally Posted by defunct

Maybe it would be best for someone to report the damage to a cave conservation organization rather then posting it on a public forum.

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That has been the general idea for years now. What it has gotten us is a lot of destroyed cave, many new cave training organizations, thousands of new cave divers, and no one looking out for the caves.

When the caves start getting closed the organizations will start training cave conservation and not before.

The sooner the better.

Don't know about you, but my training (NACD) included conservation issues. Bumping the ceiling was bad bad bad, and not because of potential roll off, but because you are damaging the cave. It was pretty clear that hitting the ceiling too much, failing to improve during the days of diving, etc., was a good way not to pass! Pull and Glide was another bad thing in general; do it only when necessary, and then only in certain places, and the dives demonstrated where and when and how (like never with fingers, flat of hand and then gently).

Maybe it was just my instructors, but dang, we even had written test questions on conservation....take nothing but memories, leave nothing but bubbles, kill nothing but time.

"Swim like a fish...do you see fish touching anything?"

-skip

Many good points of disscussion on both side of the issue. As Little River is my back yard cave it is one of my favorites. But as the saying goes: You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. After all, we are talking about rocks here. Incedental damage in the process of exploration is not the same as defacement as in the Cow case. We all try our best to be carefull. Anyway....food for thought, and we can all respect one anothers view point...Ken

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

This could be reality due to wear and tear in the cave system. Carrying capacity is a common approach when for example a trail gets too much attrition,no different for a cave system.

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The sad part is that if divers were more careful and held as their primary goal to never damage the cave the carrying capacity would be so much higher I doubt there would be a need to institute it.


BTW- Yes Mike, I am very upset by the damage you are reporting. Anyone have a clue about who could have done this?

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Originally Posted by defunct

ever been dry caving?

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Our "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles, kill nothing but time" comes from the dry cavers "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time" so we all would have to ask "Have YOU ever been dry caving? If so what did the cave look like when you left?"

Bruce

take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles, kill nothing but time, touch nothing but water.

-skip

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Originally Posted by skip

take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but bubbles, kill nothing but time, touch nothing but water.

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I like that one.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

This could be reality due to wear and tear in the cave system. Carrying capacity is a common approach when for example a trail gets too much attrition,no different for a cave system.

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"Use photo points and direct observations
by cave divers to document current conditions and trends. Set carrying capacities for the
caves to ensure a quality visitor experience and to protect cave biota."

The above is a quote directly out of a DEP management plan. Basically what it is saying is that direct observation by cave divers will help determine the attrition in the cave,and this will set the carrying capacity (how many will be allowed in the cave in a given period). We are providing the direct observation on these forums by talking about this and "defacement at Orange Grove" since people outside the cave diving community use these forums. The attrition that is caused for what ever reason doesn't grant us more access,but limits our access and we need to be especially careful. Personally I would hope the "direct observation" is done in a proper manner,and not taken from the forums,but this is a conduit to keeping track of what is going on. Also,we need to use these forums to not just point the finger at attrition in caves,but real conscientious means to address this problem and educate.

What would be a good protocol for "direct observation?" Photographs obviously help, but are not sufficient by themselves. A simple scale related to "wear and tear" may be worked out and could possibly be used to for relative comparisons. Something like a beaufort scale, but 1-10, with say 10 being pristine. But what does it take to get a 9? or 8? or less? What words would describe a 5 so that divers would be able to observe and rate?

A slate may be useful so that every 100 feet or so the cave could be "rated" and the ratings then tallied, or particularly problematic areas identified.

Once a scale is developed, perhaps a webpage could be set up with a form for divers to fill out to report their observations. This database could then be used by landowners and cave committees to help with decisions.

We can start with an informal descripitive list, then rate it from worse damage to least.

For example, I've seen fist-sized rocks broken off (both the rock on the floor and the white spot indicating where it came from); two of them in one short stretch, and a small 6-inch gouge in the clay nearby. Is that a 1? or a 2? maybe a 3?

What damage have you seen?

-skip

I am not too happy about damage to caves, or any other natural environment for that matter. But it happens, its just how things are. When we enter into environments that arent our own, we inadvertantly change them. This applies to caving, cave diving, hiking, camping, anything we do. We all try our best to leave things as they were, but time to time we all mess up. I will be the first to say I have bumped into a wall, the ceiling, the floor; whichever you want. Its inadvertant 99.9 % of the time. We all have. But if you havent, then let us know how good you are. Ill give you a cookie

I looked at this Saturday. It really does not appear to have anything to do with someone trying to enter the hole by making it bigger. If I had to guess I'm going to say a scooter go out of control or stuck on and hit the wall. This would also account for the siltout in the area. As for the statement that this is not an area that would be hit be a DVP I would say it would if it was stuck on and the rider was trying to jam it in a corner to get control. Pardon if this has already been said as I have not read each and every post.

Curt

I read something very interesting the other day. To know how far our civilization has come read about the archeologists who, when searching caves, found the distinction between man and the ape was the writing on the cave walls.

Those that still write on walls have not come very far nor will they ever be ABLE to undo the damage they have done.

There will be wear and tear anyplace man goes, the SIERRA CLUB SAYS STICK TO THE TRAIL AND ADMIRE THE BEAUTY. We have the ability to hover over our domain and not contact anything. When we don't have that ability, stick to the line. When exploring, do your homework first, try to avoid damage. /Ken

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Originally Posted by skip

What would be a good protocol for "direct observation?" Photographs obviously help, but are not sufficient by themselves. A simple scale related to "wear and tear" may be worked out and could possibly be used to for relative comparisons. Something like a beaufort scale, but 1-10, with say 10 being pristine. But what does it take to get a 9? or 8? or less? What words would describe a 5 so that divers would be able to observe and rate?

A slate may be useful so that every 100 feet or so the cave could be "rated" and the ratings then tallied, or particularly problematic areas identified.

Once a scale is developed, perhaps a webpage could be set up with a form for divers to fill out to report their observations. This database could then be used by landowners and cave committees to help with decisions.

We can start with an informal descripitive list, then rate it from worse damage to least.

For example, I've seen fist-sized rocks broken off (both the rock on the floor and the white spot indicating where it came from); two of them in one short stretch, and a small 6-inch gouge in the clay nearby. Is that a 1? or a 2? maybe a 3?

What damage have you seen?

-skip

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The photopoint system is a very good system and stands on its own. The key to it is have a control picture that will compensate for turbidity etc,then shoot pictures that can be replicated by a certain system. When these pictures are combined side by side it is an indicator of wear.