Turner-Wakulla Traverse

Group

Many of you have followed and promoted the efforts of the Woodville Karst Plain Project over the years and I wanted to communicate information regarding the upcoming traverse from Turner Sink to Wakulla Springs scheduled for December 15. The linked press release provides background on the WKPP along with the dive plan for the traverse. Entering at Turner Sink and traveling 7 miles underground before surfacing at Wakulla Springs is not only an incredible diving adventure given the depth and distance, but it is also very symbolic because it clearly illustrates a physical connection between a seemingly isolated sinkhole in northern Wakulla county and the incredible environmental and cultural resource that is Wakulla Springs. Given the current and future focus on water issues for Wakulla County, Leon County and the state of Florida, this dive should be of interest to divers and non-divers alike and will likely generate increased awareness about the water flowing beneath the surface all across Florida.

Please let me know if you have any questions or require further information.

Press release on this weekend's dive:

http://www.gue.com/Galleries/WKPP/20...raverse_pr.pdf

Additional background information on the Woodville Karst Plain Project including recent efforts can be found online at:

http://gue.com/Expeditions/WKPP/index.html

http://gue.com/Expeditions/WKPP/Updates/index.html

-anthony rue
true@gue.com

:smt015

Aww, come on Russell, be polite. :)

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

:smt015

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Good luck to you guys. It is a tremendous task. I hope everyone is safe!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jay

Aww, come on Russell, be polite. :)




Good luck to you guys. It is a tremendous task. I hope everyone is safe!!!!

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But Jay, scientific research such as this gets old after a while:cartman99

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Originally Posted by DeWayne

But Jay, scientific research such as this gets old after a while:cartman99

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ROFL!!!!!

Really? There's a scientist in this venture?

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Originally Posted by DeWayne

But Jay, scientific research such as this gets old after a while:cartman99

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Yes, the veil is pretty light, I don't even bother lifting it anymore, but it is still an incredible dive!

Alright guys, no more agency bashing. Tony posted information some people might be interested in. If you aren't interested, don't read it, but don't flame another cavediving group.

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Originally Posted by FW

Alright guys, no more agency bashing. Tony posted information some people might be interested in. If you aren't interested, don't read it, but don't flame another cavediving group.

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I absolutely applaud this effort and have nothing but respect for the divers of the WKPP......BUT! I think a lot of other very experienced and skilled divers resent the fact that Wakulla is off limits to everyone but the WKPP.
No flame war here on my part though. Hell....I just wish they'ed let me do a damn bounce dive in the spring basin so I could snap photos, but the key phrase here is "let me". It's state property so I own it too. Why should I or any other certified/qualified diver be denied access to even the spring basin?
I understand the resentment but envy is a sin (or so Pastor Miller tells me) so I don't play the envy game.
While I may disagree with the way this publically owned land is managed so as to exclude access by other qualified members of the general public I hope that the divers from the WKPP are successful in the "safe" completion of this project.
Maybe someday.............?

Will the WKPP be making a map of their efforts available to the cave diving community? Even a stick map would be nice.

All personal issues aside......
It will be quite an accomplishement
Good luck with the dive and be safe!
Thanks for the update.

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Originally Posted by Cave Ranger

I absolutely applaud this effort and have nothing but respect for the divers of the WKPP......BUT! I think a lot of other very experienced and skilled divers resent the fact that Wakulla is off limits to everyone but the WKPP.
No flame war here on my part though. Hell....I just wish they'ed let me do a damn bounce dive in the spring basin so I could snap photos, but the key phrase here is "let me". It's state property so I own it too. Why should I or any other certified/qualified diver be denied access to even the spring basin?
I understand the resentment but envy is a sin (or so Pastor Miller tells me) so I don't play the envy game.
While I may disagree with the way this publically owned land is managed so as to exclude access by other qualified members of the general public I hope that the divers from the WKPP are successful in the "safe" completion of this project.
Maybe someday.............?

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Wholeheartedly agree with this post, except for the sinning bit. I lived with my girlfriend (before she became my wife) in sin for some time. I survived that, so I am okay with these kind of sins..... I do envy the 'select, elite-we-are-the-only-divers-allowed-in here-nah-nah-nu-nah-nah- peeps up there.

But nevertheless, a very challenging dive and it deserves respect, regardless of all the stuff around that. Good luck guys.

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Originally Posted by OutlawCaver

Will the WKPP be making a map of their efforts available to the cave diving community? Even a stick map would be nice.

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http://gue.com/Expeditions/WKPP/Upda...leon_topo1.pdf

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Originally Posted by Cave Ranger

I absolutely applaud this effort and have nothing but respect for the divers of the WKPP......BUT! I think a lot of other very experienced and skilled divers resent the fact that Wakulla is off limits to everyone but the WKPP.

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As a resident of the area, and as someone involved in efforts to promote diving, including cave diving in the area, I would like to emphatically state that Wakulla is NOT off limits. Wakulla Springs State Park is off limits. If you would like to dive in Wakulla county, there are dozens of places you can do it.

I have posted announcements here for the past two months about a group that is dedicated to encouraging diving in this area by people of all skill levels. This group is making significant efforts to increase diver awareness, as well as raise awareness of local county officials of the rich resources of this area.

Despite people's personal feeling about the WKPP, I can say without doubt, that they have raised the level of awareness in this area about diving, safe cave diving, hydrogeology, and a number of other issues. They have a safety record that is enviable, and that has not gone unnoticed by the local government.

So if you want to dive Wakulla, I would encourage anyone to join our efforts here and jump in the water. I dive in Wakulla at least twice a month. You can too.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

As a resident of the area, and as someone involved in efforts to promote diving, including cave diving in the area, I would like to emphatically state that Wakulla is NOT off limits. Wakulla Springs State Park is off limits. If you would like to dive in Wakulla county, there are dozens of places you can do it.

I have posted announcements here for the past two months about a group that is dedicated to encouraging diving in this area by people of all skill levels. This group is making significant efforts to increase diver awareness, as well as raise awareness of local county officials of the rich resources of this area.

Despite people's personal feeling about the WKPP, I can say without doubt, that they have raised the level of awareness in this area about diving, safe cave diving, hydrogeology, and a number of other issues. They have a safety record that is enviable, and that has not gone unnoticed by the local government.

So if you want to dive Wakulla, I would encourage anyone to join our efforts here and jump in the water. I dive in Wakulla at least twice a month. You can too.

Thanks

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Wakulla is closed to diving everyone stay away. What are the dozens of places you dive?

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Originally Posted by Caver95

Wakulla is closed to diving everyone stay away. What are the dozens of places you dive?

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Nick,

Clearly you read what I posted. And nowhere did I say I dove dozens of places in Wakulla. There are places to dive in Wakulla as you well know. Let's leave it there.

As stated by JJ at the NACD Seminar, anyone wishing to join the WKPP is welcome to contact him.

If you want to dive this, talk to the WKKP -- they hold the permit and what they are doing is DAMN IMPRESSIVE!

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

As stated by JJ at the NACD Seminar, anyone wishing to join the WKPP is welcome to contact him.

If you want to dive this, talk to the WKKP -- they hold the permit and what they are doing is DAMN IMPRESSIVE!

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FWIW, any group can apply for a permit. It was actually done in the past. There was a period in the '90s that there were 2 permitted groups diving Wakulla.

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Originally Posted by FW

FWIW, any group can apply for a permit. It was actually done in the past. There was a period in the '90s that there were 2 permitted groups diving Wakulla.

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Great!

Where exactly do I go to apply for a permit? I have a team, a valid reason (Research / documentary) and the required skill sets. Who holds the magic key?

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Nick,

Clearly you read what I posted. And nowhere did I say I dove dozens of places in Wakulla. There are places to dive in Wakulla as you well know. Let's leave it there.

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Wait a minute...YOU said you were promoting the area, so why be secretive about the names of the sites. Doesn't make any sense.

Either you want us to come dive there or you don't.

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Wait a minute...YOU said you were promoting the area, so why be secretive about the names of the sites. Doesn't make any sense.

Either you want us to come dive there or you don't.

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http://wakullacountydiveclub.com/

New club formed in November to promote diving in the Wakulla area. Not much on the site as yet (I just put it up), but there are a lot of good people involved with this effort. In a few months time, I think there will be some significant progress that people can look at and hopefully try to support.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

http://wakullacountydiveclub.com/

New club formed in November to promote diving in the Wakulla area. Not much on the site as yet (I just put it up), but there are a lot of good people involved with this effort. In a few months time, I think there will be some significant progress that people can look at and hopefully try to support.

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Excellent, I would like to get over that way. I hear the conditions have been pretty good with the drought.

Yes,

Conditions have been lovely. Though I was at a site in Wakulla last Saturday, and the vis was TERRIBLE. It was a sink, and the vis couldn't have been more than 3-5ft at the surface, and 5-7ft at depth. Ugly. Not sure what was going on there.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Really? There's a scientist in this venture?

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I can think of at least 3 PhDs, 2 in geology, immediately. Get your facts [edited: rule # 3].

This is an *Official* warning to MrSpooley:

I have had to edit 50% of the posts you have put on here, the rest were negative. We have a policy to warn members of rule infractions, and ban them after three warnings. Since I failed to warn you the first three times, consider this your first *official* warning.

I already warned everyone that agency bashing would not be tolerated. There was no reason to call anyone names.

A PhD is all it takes? DeWayne, you think they'll let us do it with them? Let's kit up this weekend. You "research" the angles on the suvey, I'll "research" how to sell the map...

:)

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Originally Posted by aainslie

A PhD is all it takes? Wayne, you think they'll let us do it with them? Let's kit up this weekend. You "research" the angles on the suvey, I'll "research" how to sell the map...

:)

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Alright wise acre, you aren't immune to getting a warning.

Lay off them. Get your own permit, if you don't want to co-operate with the people that already have one.

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Originally Posted by FW

Alright wise acre, you aren't immune to getting a warning.

Lay off them. Get your own permit, if you don't want to co-operate with the people that already have one.

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Sorry. it was just too funny given how many PhD's there are that dive.

Hoping to dive Emerald soon. It'll be fun to see wha this system is all about.

And I have to agree, it's an amazing achievement hooking all these systems up at such huge depths.

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Originally Posted by FW

Get your own permit, if you don't want to co-operate with the people that already have one.

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Seriously,

Does anyone know how to get the required permit? I wasn't kidding earlier. If it's available, I'll get the team suited up.

I have two PhD's myself - they are leaning in the corner in my barn. Whenever I need to dig a post hole, I go and get one of them!

Seriously, that's a very impressive undertaking! 7 miles! Damn! 14 times as long as my longest traverse...

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

7 miles! Damn! 14 times as long as my longest traverse...

Mike

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...At 200+ feet!!

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Seriously,

Does anyone know how to get the required permit? I wasn't kidding earlier. If it's available, I'll get the team suited up.

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I have a vague idea. Cindy might be able to tell you more.

You write up a proposal to the state parks system. You usually have to have some scientific reason to dive in state parks. I once was told "don't offer to make a map, we already have one". As far as I can tell, the successful ones have one or more science PhDs, and some scientific goal.

So a PhD in music won't do any good?

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Originally Posted by FW

I have a vague idea. Cindy might be able to tell you more.

You write up a proposal to the state parks system. You usually have to have some scientific reason to dive in state parks. I once was told "don't offer to make a map, we already have one". As far as I can tell, the successful ones have one or more science PhDs, and some scientific goal.

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For wakulla i wrote up one along with some biology ph.d.'s and our proposal was funded through the florida springs initiative. The work we proposed was actually accomplished by wkpp divers. Must say we did not propose another permit as what we were doing really was in line with water quality work that was already being done under the wkpp permit.

My issue with the wkpp is that if you want to join you must be trained by their "for profit" training org...that is not right. There is no way someone trained via another agency can participate.

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Originally Posted by wingman

My issue with the wkpp is that if you want to join you must be trained by their "for profit" training org...that is not right. There is no way someone trained via another agency can participate.

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Is that right? I seem to remember being out there with Bill Oigarden who was not GUE trained. Neither was David Doolette. What GUE course did Sheck take? Are you saying that GI3 took Fundies?

It's their organization, they make the rules. I can't dive certain sites unless I pay money and join certain organizations. Private organizations make their own rules about being a member. Some cost more than others. Seems pretty simple to me. What's not right about it?

Why isn't there a team of divers trying to find the connection from Lake Jackson in Tallahassee to Leon Sinks. The WKPP is focused on the path south. How about the path North? That would be great science, and would probably get a lot of support from the state. A golden opportunity for someone who wants their own project to do.

Perrone, it basically boils down to GI's view of the majority of the cave divers.
That little commit about how good they are and the rest are stro*** pretty much has set the tone for the way the organization is viewed. In recent dives things are shifting back to what they intended originally and they are doing great stuff. They still carry the "air" around them from years gone by.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Is that right? I seem to remember being out there with Bill Oigarden who was not GUE trained. Neither was David Doolette. What GUE course did Sheck take? Are you saying that GI3 took Fundies?

It's their organization, they make the rules. I can't dive certain sites unless I pay money and join certain organizations. Private organizations make their own rules about being a member. Some cost more than others. Seems pretty simple to me. What's not right about it?

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Read this thread, especially post 11

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...3354#post33354

Whats not right, in my opinion, is that there is a for profit company controlling access to a public natural resource.

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Originally Posted by wingman

Read this thread, especially post 11

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showp...54&postcount=1

Whats not right, in my opinion, is that there is a for profit company controlling access to a public natural resource.

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I know what is required do dive with the WKPP. I asked after doing surface support a few times.

I guess what it boils down to for some is:

1. A private entity who has a legal permit to dive a site others want access to.
2. A private entity who requires at-cost training to join their organization

It has been established that there are other sites in Wakulla to dive. It has been established that the WKPP is not a closed organization and anyone who is willing to do what other members have done (save for the few long time members) can indeed join the team. It is also further noted that other groups can be permitted to dive in the Wakulla system if they are willing to follow the established procedures. It has been done in the past.

So what are we talking about?

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Perrone, it basically boils down to GI's view of the majority of the cave divers.
That little commit about how good they are and the rest are stro*** pretty much has set the tone for the way the organization is viewed. In recent dives things are shifting back to what they intended originally and they are doing great stuff. They still carry the "air" around them from years gone by.

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If all organizations were judged by statements of members who haven't been involved in YEARS, then I guess a lot of ill will could be had. Even amongst other cave organizations.

I came to caving after the GI3 era, and to be honest, I'm quite happy to work with any organization as I am learning a lot from them all.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I know what is required do dive with the WKPP. I asked after doing surface support a few times.

I guess what it boils down to for some is:

1. A private entity who has a legal permit to dive a site others want access to.
2. A private entity who requires at-cost training to join their organization

It has been established that there are other sites in Wakulla to dive. It has been established that the WKPP is not a closed organization and anyone who is willing to do what other members have done (save for the few long time members) can indeed join the team. It is also further noted that other groups can be permitted to dive in the Wakulla system if they are willing to follow the established procedures. It has been done in the past.

So what are we talking about?

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Post on here when you finally move up from sherpa to someone that gets to dive into the cave unguided.

I would be interested in the timeframe it takes to go from the "bottom" (after taking fundies, cave 1, cave 2) to being able to dive the sytem that you are assisting very few to explore.

Seriously. I am wondering what the average timeframe for this is...

Either way, no one can discount the fact that the dives being done are major accomplishments from an exploration point of view.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

So what are we talking about?

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That's a good question...you are talking and i am talking but no communication is taking place.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

If all organizations were judged by statements of members who haven't been involved in YEARS, then I guess a lot of ill will could be had. Even amongst other cave organizations.

I came to caving after the GI3 era, and to be honest, I'm quite happy to work with any organization as I am learning a lot from them all.

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GI3 is not the topic. A for profit organization that controls the access to a public site by requiring buying their training & gear to gain access is. You can call it many things but right is not one of them. My self I have no interest in diving Wakulla it is a serious dive that requires very committed people, such as the WKPP to pull it off safely. They are not however the only ones who possess the skill, means & will to do this. Say what you will but the rest of us know:blackbar2 when we step in it.:-D

RAL

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Originally Posted by RAL

GI3 is not the topic. A for profit organization that controls the access to a public site by requiring buying their training & gear to gain access is. You can call it many things but right is not one of them. My self I have no interest in diving Wakulla it is a serious dive that requires very committed people, such as the WKPP to pull it off safely. They are not however the only ones who possess the skill, means & will to do this. Say what you will but the rest of us know:blackbar2 when we step in it.:-D

RAL

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Well, you don't have to buy WKPP gear (or Halcyon either) but you do have to take the courses. I don't think that anyone can logically argue that the WKPP is the only team who could have made the connection from Leon Sinks to Wakulla. But there were certainly one team who could, and they were there first, with a legal permit to do so.

I've heard the argument that there are other teams out there with the requisite skill, means, and will to do this kind of work, but where are they? What are they doing? The Weeki Wachee exploration is a great example. Highly skilled team, hand selected members, and they got good work done. Not just any Joe diver can dive there (is it a private or public resource?). But why is the argument just about Wakulla? With all the other systems that need exploration, why aren't more of these skilled teams, with the means and the will, pushing them?

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Originally Posted by wingman

That's a good question...you are talking and i am talking but no communication is taking place.

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I think we are. You have clearly communicated that your issue, at least on it's face, is that a private organization has exclusive use of a public resource. WSSP is about 35 minutes from me. I'd love to be able to dive there. Though I currently lack the skill and training to do so, even if I had them, I am just not as bothered by this as you seem to be. To be fair, quite a lot of people seem bothered by it as well, so I guess there is something to it.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and feelings.

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Originally Posted by defunct

Post on here when you finally move up from sherpa to someone that gets to dive into the cave unguided.

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That would require me taking Cave1. I may or may not do that. But I'm not sure why that really matters.

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Originally Posted by defunct

I would be interested in the timeframe it takes to go from the "bottom" (after taking fundies, cave 1, cave 2) to being able to dive the sytem that you are assisting very few to explore.

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Depends on what you mean by "dive the system". From what I've seen on site, the time frame is relatively short. Less than a year. People I took Fundies with are regular diving members on the team.

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Originally Posted by defunct

Either way, no one can discount the fact that the dives being done are major accomplishments from an exploration point of view.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Depends on what you mean by "dive the system". From what I've seen on site, the time frame is relatively short. Less than a year. People I took Fundies with are regular diving members on the team.

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That sure is a lot of money to spend, when all they had to do was go to Tractor Supply to see what an upside down cattle trough looks like. I bet the nice people there would even let them put an O2 bottle in it too.

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Originally Posted by Caver95

That sure is a lot of money to spend, when all they had to do was go to Tractor Supply to see what an upside down cattle trough looks like. I bet the nice people there would even let them put an O2 bottle in it too.

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:smt046 :smt064 :smt046

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I think we are. You have clearly communicated that your issue, at least on it's face, is that a private organization has exclusive use of a public resource.

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I think we are not...my issue is that the private organization requires members to be certified/trained by a for profit corporation that is affiliated with it. I think it might be easier to get into Lechugilla then Wakulla.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Well, you don't have to buy WKPP gear (or Halcyon either) but you do have to take the courses.

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How many SS scooters are in use on the team?

RAL

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Originally Posted by RAL

How many SS scooters are in use on the team?

RAL

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...or Salvo lights? Diverite wings? Etc etc etc

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Originally Posted by RAL

How many SS scooters are in use on the team?

RAL

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None as far as I know, the material is all wrong!

I believe the WKPP scooters need to be made out of schedule 40 plastic sewer pipe in order to pass the rigorous equipment standards on the team.

Nothing but the best for ya...:-D

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Originally Posted by RAL

How many SS scooters are in use on the team?

RAL

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Come on now.. we're splitting hairs...

Halcyon doesn't make scooters, so they use one by a former team member.
Halcyon doesn't make drysuits so they use DUI.
Halcyon doesn't make regs so ScubaPro and Apeks are popular.

Obviously the scooters they use work fine, and from a team perspective, it's probably quite helpful to have everyone using similar gear, set up the same way.

Why should you need a scientific permit to dive in a state park anyway, I mean do all the people doing cannonballs off the platform have scientific permits?

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

Why should you need a scientific permit to dive in a state park anyway, I mean do all the people doing cannonballs off the platform have scientific permits?

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I can't agree more :-D

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The mission of the Florida Parks Service is to provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources.

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Seems to me that requiring anyone, WKPP included, to go hat in hand to the park service to enjoy resource-based recreation is contrary to this mission. If you can enjoy the resource without harming anyone else's rights to enjoy the resource I do not see why it should be forbidden.

I understand that, on paper, anyone could put together a team and present a scientific reason for diving and spend weeks/months/years greasing the right wheels and eventually get permission to dive but I do not think it is proper for the park system to put such roadblocks in place.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

anyone could put together a team and present a scientific reason for diving and spend weeks/months/years greasing the right wheels

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I will make some calls, and throw a few wrenches in said "greased wheels"

The media is a wonderful thing.

Please don't throw wrenches into the works when there are people who are working to improve relations in the Wakulla area and open up diving for everyone.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Please don't throw wrenches into the works when there are people who are working to improve relations in the Wakulla area and open up diving for everyone.

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I agree, its effort better spent towards opening state lands to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

I agree, its effort better spent towards opening state lands to everyone.

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That is my goal

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

That is my goal

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Then work with the not-for-profit groups already working on the issues, like the NACD, and NSS-CDS. Join the Wakulla CSO, but don't raise any flags that you may not be able to take down later.

Tomorrow is the big day, GOOD LUCK guys, and be safe!

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Originally Posted by FW

Then work with the not-for-profit groups already working on the issues, like the NACD, and NSS-CDS. Join the Wakulla CSO, but don't raise any flags that you may not be able to take down later.

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What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

I have no problem with caves owned by the CDS or other private entities, but a public park should be open to the public.

They state should have no problem conducting research and allowing other divers to enjoy the cave.

It seems to me that the WKPP uses this permit and research to their financial advantage in a big way.

1. you have to be GUE trained to participate $$$
2. you have to sherpa their gear as an unpaid intern $$$
3. When you get to dive, you get to bring them tanks, food etc... all for free $$$

Hell, that's a prety good gig for them. You paid them for the training, and then volunteer your time for YEARS just so that you can carry a few tanks for free??

Where do I sign up!

I am not knocking JJ or the WKPP or their accomplishments, but if you step back and look at the big picture, it's the model for a good ole boys network hiding behind a government permit to keep their exclusivity!

If they want it so bad, let them buy the land. Otherwise it needs to be open to everyone. Why is it that nobody wants to talk about this? Would the state not grant us access? why not?

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

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The WKPP doesn't approve their own permit. The people responsible for the protection of that resource approve it. And thus far, they seem to feel they are getting good value out of the deal.

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

I have no problem with caves owned by the CDS or other private entities, but a public park should be open to the public.

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Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing...

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

They state should have no problem conducting research and allowing other divers to enjoy the cave.

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Then bring it up with the state. Request a hearing. Happens all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

It seems to me that the WKPP uses this permit and research to their financial advantage in a big way.

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Really? How much money do think they are making off their volunteers?

[QUOTE=Mike Edmonston;41567]
1. you have to be GUE trained to participate $$$

Do you think that GUE or the NACD/CDS trains more cave divers per year?

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

2. you have to sherpa their gear as an unpaid intern $$$

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No you don't. You don't have to do anything. But then, that's not exactly a team mentality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

3. When you get to dive, you get to bring them tanks, food etc... all for free $$$

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That is the choice of the person participating. No one in the WKPP is forcing anyone to do anything. As you have pointed out, many people have no such desire to do these things, and don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Hell, that's a prety good gig for them. You paid them for the training, and then volunteer your time for YEARS just so that you can carry a few tanks for free??

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And yet, people keep on signing up to do it. Amazing isn't it? Maybe some people are just happy to be a part of the effort. Maybe some are absorbing team procedures and learning things. I know that's why I went. As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Where do I sign up!

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Gue.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

I am not knocking JJ or the WKPP or their accomplishments, but if you step back and look at the big picture, it's the model for a good ole boys network hiding behind a government permit to keep their exclusivity!

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The big picture? The big picture is that propogation of surface runoff is better understood by all involved parties. Tallahassee has agreed to build a new water treamtent plant in a less sensitive area because of the work done. Hyrdogeology is being rethought, at least in part, because of the work done. A potentially damaging plan to bottle water from the spring was turned down because of the information gathered. To me, that's the big picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Why is it that nobody wants to talk about this?

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People have been talking about it for 10+ years. The question is what have people DONE about it?

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Would the state not grant us access? why not?

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Who, exactly, is "us" ?

:smt015

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

That would require me taking Cave1. I may or may not do that. But I'm not sure why that really matters.

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Who are you cave certified through?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing....

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I don't think this is what Mike was talking about!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

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How is it possible for you to go assist, watch, etc. when GUE says you have to be Cave 1 to be there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing...

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Yes the park is open, but it would be nice if the cave was open too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Then bring it up with the state. Request a hearing. Happens all the time.

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Thanks, will do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Really? How much money do think they are making off their volunteers?

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The fact that they are volunteers saves them a ton of funds. Even dive operations pay their divemasters something!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Do you think that GUE or the NACD/CDS trains more cave divers per year?

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That's irrelevant. AFAIK, CDS/NACD doesn't control access to a PUBLIC cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

No you don't. You don't have to do anything. But then, that's not exactly a team mentality.

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There's nothing wrong with volunteering your time. That's really good actually. But the WKPP REQUIRES you to "volunteer" before you can dive.
When it's required, it's not really being a volunteer is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

That is the choice of the person participating. No one in the WKPP is forcing anyone to do anything.

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And how many dives would they do without a volunteer support crew and tank sherpas?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

And yet, people keep on signing up to do it. Amazing isn't it? Maybe some people are just happy to be a part of the effort. Maybe some are absorbing team procedures and learning things. I know that's why I went. As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

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It's actually under a false pretense. you volunteer under the assumption that you will get to dive this system. How many expeditions have you pushed? I am sure that you busted your butt for them alot. I haven't seen any special thanks to you in any literature or videos!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

The big picture is that propogation of surface runoff is better understood by all involved parties. Tallahassee has agreed to build a new water treamtent plant in a less sensitive area because of the work done. Hyrdogeology is being rethought, at least in part, because of the work done. A potentially damaging plan to bottle water from the spring was turned down because of the information gathered. To me, that's the big picture.

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No argument there, and again I am in NO WAY criticizing the work that JJ has done. But having volunteers that need to PAY YOU for training while shlepping tanks under the false pretense that they will be an explorer is just wrong!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

People have been talking about it for 10+ years. The question is what have people DONE about it?

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Very well said, I am working on doing something about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Who, exactly, is "us" ?

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Us is ANY diver with the required skills to make a safe dive in that environment. Wouldn't you like to dive that system Ford? Hell, I would!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by contender

Who are you cave certified through?

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IANTD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by contender

How is it possible for you to go assist, watch, etc. when GUE says you have to be Cave 1 to be there?

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I don't know. I just showed up, asked if I could be of assistance, and did some stuff. Seemed to work out ok. :) I even had fun and learned some things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

It's actually under a false pretense. you volunteer under the assumption that you will get to dive this system. How many expeditions have you pushed? I am sure that you busted your butt for them alot. I haven't seen any special thanks to you in any literature or videos!

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I think the folks carrying gear to the water and moving bottles around understand that they won't be laying new line. I didn't do it for any special thanks or recognition at all. I used to work for DEP (in legal and water) and frankly, I applaud any effort to improve water quality. Especially in my area. I spent many a day volunteering my time when I was at DEP cleaning up beaches, collecting batteries for proper disposal, etc. Makes me feel good to just do good things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

shlepping tanks under the false pretense that they will be an explorer is just wrong!

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Again, you're making an assumption that the people doing the schlepping think they will be exploring. I don't think that's true at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

Wouldn't you like to dive that system Ford? Hell, I would!

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Honestly, not really. Too deep for my taste. There's so much other stuff around I couldn't dive it all in 5 lifetimes. It'll take me years to just finish Peacock and Madison.


I thank you for the conversation, but I need to bow out. I wish you all the best in supporting current efforts to open up caves to diving. If you feel the need to strike out on your own, I only ask that you please be mindful of other ongoing efforts.

Have a great weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I wish you all the best in supporting current efforts to open up caves to diving. If you feel the need to strike out on your own, I only ask that you please be mindful of other ongoing efforts.

Have a great weekend.

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I wouldn't do it any other way. EVERYONE including the WKPP has a right to dive and enjoy it.

Safe diving bud...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Edmonston

What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

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What do you think I had just said? Work with the not-for profit groups. The NACD, along with the NSS-CDS got Manatee, Peacock, Madison, and Lafayette Blue open to public cavediving. Starting over on your own will only take more time. Use your energy for a cause that actually stands a chance.

We go through this same arguement every year the WKPP makes sometime of push.
There was a good arguement that the WKPP and the folks they had working with them (Bill Stone) were the only ones that could mount a private effort that required the technology to dive several hours at 300 feet. But this was the 80-90s. Well alot has changed in the last 15 years. Nitrox is the norm and is banked in cave country. Rebreathers and Trimix are very common and the decompression science has been opened to us all. It just does not make sense with the training and technology we have for the state to keep us out of OUR state park resource. The FWC needs to buy more land they are the only reasonable ones to deal with. Hell they let people run around with guns on their property us cave divers are nothing.

Just my 2 psi for this year

So are there any updates as to the dive?

According to a thread on another forum, they completed the dive. I'm sure an official report will follow shortly.

I've been trying to stay out of this...

Keep in mind we have worked together to get access to Wakulla. You, providing requirements met, can dive the system now. You have to use the Emerald entrance to the Wakulla-Leon Sinks Cave System, but you can dive Wakulla! Work with the non-profits that got the door open. If we can prove we are responsible, they may allow diving in other entrances to the system.

From another site:

On Saturday 12/15 the Woodville Karst Plain Project completed an underwater traverse from Turner Sink to Wakulla Springs. WKPP divers Jarrod Jablonski and Casey McKinlay began their record-setting cave dive at 1:20pm, arriving at the Wakulla basin at approximately 9pm.

Their seven mile journey through the Florida aquifer at depths of up to 300ft below the surface created a decompression obligation that requires Jablonski and McKinlay ascend very slowly through the night. They are expected to surface at 8-10am Sunday morning.

This weekend's dive was supported by forty WKPP team members and volunteers, who staged gear at strategic locations in the cave system and attended to decompressing divers throughout the approximately 30 hour operation.

- Todd Leonard, WKPP Project Coordinator

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rblackburn

I've been trying to stay out of this...

Keep in mind we have worked together to get access to Wakulla. You, providing requirements met, can dive the system now. You have to use the Emerald entrance to the Wakulla-Leon Sinks Cave System, but you can dive Wakulla! Work with the non-profits that got the door open. If we can prove we are responsible, they may allow diving in other entrances to the system.

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Well said Richard.

I would like to congratulate the WKPP divers and their support team. No matter what some of you [not directed at you Richard] or I might think about the politics involved with access to Wakulla Springs, it's still one helluva dive they pulled off!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Well said Richard.

I would like to congratulate the WKPP divers and their support team. No matter what some of you [not directed at you Richard] or I might think about the politics involved with access to Wakulla Springs, it's still one helluva dive they pulled off!

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Logistics, training, & the proper gear all relate to a successfull dive of this magnitude. Please give the GUE & WKPP team members their proper due. I for one admire their accomplishments & could only dream of such an achivement-!
:smt114
JE