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The Cave Diving Section of the National Speleological Section has always made cave conservation its mandate. The board of directors is appalled at any cave defacement,especially the recent events. We have made it our policy to offer a $1000 reward for information leading to the prosecution of anybody found guilty of cave vandalism (Florida Statute 810.13). Any tips can be sent to chairman@nsscds.org
Sincerely
Kelly Jessop
Chairman NSS-CDS.
Kelly,
This is sad but necessary way to deter the next person from committing such a heinous act and seeking punishment for the person(s) that committed the recent ones. I fully support the principle of a reward for the person supplying information leading to arrest and conviction of the person(s) responsible.
I personally pursued the purchase of Cow for many years so that we all would have a lifetime enjoyment of its beauty and challenges. Therefore I would like to add $100.00 to the amount offered by the CDS, should the CDS reward be claimed.
/Ken Hill
Thank you for your generous offer Ken.
Unintentional damage resulting from poor trim and awareness is bad enough- intentional acts of vandalism must not be tolerated.
I will add $100.00 to the reward.
Johnny Richards
Count me in for another $100.00Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
Jim
I will add one round house kick to the face. :-D
So how does one formally add $ to the bounty for capture/conviction?
Does the CDS have a set method for donations?
Richard
Tallahassee
....deleted since OFG already made similar comments in a different thread...---> go see 'what message doe we send' thread.
I will add a hundred to the fund.
Hate to break it to you... but actually... according the the wording of the Florida State Statute 810.13 aren't we ALL (cavedivers) breaking the law?
How many of the divers diving the caves are in there for "scientific inquiry"?Quote:
(2) VANDALISM.--It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:
(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.
(b) Break, force, tamper with, or otherwise disturb a lock, gate, door, or other obstruction designed to control or prevent access to a cave, even though entrance thereto may not be gained.
(c) Remove, deface, or tamper with a sign stating that a cave is posted or citing provisions of this act.
BTW, I like how the reward is now higher then the maximum penalty. My guess is that with a first time offense a judge will likely only give one a small fine (as there is not many cases for him to review for this).
Thus, since I broke that statute the last time I dove a cave, I might as well turn myself in... get $1500 from the CDS and those that have "added" to the fund, get slapped with a misdemeanor (which will easily be bargined down with the DA because of turning myself in) and pay the $500 fine that the judge would impose. I would make out with $1K profit for a small amount of time dedicated. Then I could make a killing turning in every cavediver that has dove Ginnie within the last year. I mean it would be easy to subpoena the waivers from Ginnie and go right down the list...
We must tread VERY lightly when rounding up the town for a witchhunt... when the definition we are using for "witch" includes the very people doing the hunting...
I was blessed in that I saw the clay bank only 6-7 years ago in it's pristene condition. It was beautiful.
Over the years that has changed dramatically from repeated vandalism. First accidental fin and hand marks (no one should ever get that close!) to deliberate holes marking passage and now large graffiti. This site will never return to it's former beauty. Not in our lifetimes. Not in many lifetimes, if ever. This is not the only site that's been deliberately wrecked.
Someone some where knows something. Eventually the passage of time or enough $$ incentive will bring about a conviction for either this crime or similar. It's time to send the message to these type of divers. It's a worthwhile investment. If folks don't have $100, send what you can....
I will add $50 to the reward.
Please tell us where to send it now so the CDS can hold it in trust.
Angie
Hey this is reality Brad.......Quote:
Originally Posted by defunct
You are talking out of your avatar and you sound like one of those creative but inexperienced liberals.
How about being part of the solution?
Is OFG also a "creative but inexperienced liberal"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
Sorry, but I'm with Meng Tze, Brad and OFG. This "reward" stuff is fun because it makes us feel good but it ain't going to cure anything.
Economists often talk of "the law of unintended consequences". There are thousands of examples - many of them stupid Democrat moves like support for single mothers which single handedly exploded the numbers of single mothers since now there was a disincentive to get married. brad is pointing out that this "reward" may have some unexpected consequences.
The statute itself is incredibly dumb:
VANDALISM.--It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:
(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.
OK - so here's another way to earn some bucks. Go just past the entrance of Ginnie and set up an IR camera. Wait for the first instructor to do a lights out drill. I guarantee you there will be some "break, break off,... mark upon,... disturb and deface" action going on.
Another question - is there ANYONE on this board who can honestly say that while "pulling and gliding" (aka dragging and grunting) haven't felt a little "click" as you broke off a piece of rock? I'll bet even Gary, in a moment of honesty, may be guilty of this.
So... there we have it. A statute worded so broadly that if taken seriously, would DEFINITELY prevent training (tell me how to do a lights out on the line without disturbing anything - especially in areas like Cow) and that all of us fall foul of. And on top of that, that are almost impossible to collect evidence on.
Ther rider is of course the "minimal disturbance" clause. But it's a "how long is a piece of string?" clause. Is "minimal disturbance" a 1/8" gouge in a clay bank? 1/4"? 1"? 6"? or perhaps, "whatever I do, since clearly I'm a careful diver"?
Such statutes are rarely enforced. Has anyone been prosecuted for this, ever? I remember a furore a year or so ago when some dumbass started trying to drill a hole to China in Double Domes - anyone get prosecuted for that piece of stupidity?
Your money's safe, guys. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the caves - this statute is a toothless joke unfortunately.
It all comes back to what OFG called "personal integrity" - and our continued stand as a community that this stuff is unacceptable. It'll still happen occasionally, but let's reduce it to the minimum.
Angie - thanks for the suggestion on a new signature. I love it!
That actually sounds similar for anyone harming manatee or key deer (except the fines are higher in those cases). It doesn't have to be "on purpose" to get fined ALOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I think a $1000 fine for accidental damage to be something I'd like to see accessed. I wouldn't have a problem with someone setting up such a camera and catching dozens of divers.
Actually I'd quite favor this. I hope someone does it and I hope the courts do their part in accessing fines.
If I was given to such honesty I might be tempted to admit something along this line. I'm always amazed at criminals who tape themselves in car jacking crimes or other stupid things or posting their exploits on YouTube. I don't intend to join the ranks of such stupidity. Whatever crimes I have committed are a private matter I intend to take to the grave with me. Were I ever assessed a $1000 fine for cave damage I would probably expect that the damage that caused it certainly justified the fine. I'd pay the fine and continue cave diving.Quote:
I'll bet even Gary, in a moment of honesty, may be guilty of this.
If there are people out there looking at the $1000 fine as if it would change the way they dive or keep them from cave diving then in my opinion they don't care enough and aren't being careful enough now. They should care more then this already about the damage they cause to the cave. It shouldn't take the threat of a $1000 fine for them to be upset about the damage they do.
Hi guys, listen,
I need to contribute to this conversation and my writing also fits several other current topics and on other forums around the theme of so called "vandalism" in submerged caves.
Speaking of "permanent damage to uw caves" - consider this - OC divers' bubbles constitute a significant environment change and "damage". Have you ever noticed how long air bubbles hang in the cave ceilings - some of them air bubbles in the popular caves might be dozens years old! The bubbles have huge mechanical effect, knocking down cave formations as well as cave life that then becomes an easy prey to bottom feeders!!
Also the introduced air bubbles change water chemistry - some of the cave organisms are not happy with your extra exhaled gas!
Yet - there are movements in the cave diving community to ban closed circuit diving - where proper ccr diving doesn't introduce almost any outside gas into the cave environment!
OK next: divers introduce light into the caves - in certain systems divers and their lights lead predators deep where the predators would naturally never occur! This is especially true in some far NW Florida caves where up until few years ago pristine and abundant with endemic species flourished!
Next: cave diving promotion as tourism and a natural extension of scuba diving for everybody brings a lot of new divers who get into the systems just too easy, the access and instruction is cheap and easy.
Many cave diving sites were till recently inaccessible to those who didn't have the basic skills and strength and stamina and know-how = natural selection was in place. Now everybody who pays a small fee they get a changing room, toilet, stairways, parking lots, permanent lines and no navigation allowed, hand holding guides =theme park atmosphere...
When I started cave diving not too long ago (1999) - there were non of these above mentioned amenities and yet we didn't see any of the cave damage we all hate to see today! There was an accidental fin or knee mark here and there - and mind you those get smoothed out with the annual floods!!!
Some people favor forced guided diving - it - will not help anything - yet it will bring more incompetent divers into the systems!
Guided diving should be available to those who ask for it but overall divers should be encouraged to attain skills and progress in their cave diving accordingly. The caves should be made as hard to access as the cave diving accident analysis and rules stipulate. That means no extending lines, no guide to find perm lines: if the divers cannot find the line they will wait for better conditions and they will become better divers!
Well, that's all for now.
Sincerely,
Jitka Hyniova
I'm going out on a limb here, but I would hazard a guess that the point of the reward is to help determine the identity of those who are responsible for the intentional damage which has recently occurred.
The cute responses and attempted legal dissections of the Florida statute serve- what purpose? Self-amusement- an attempt to appear clever and smart- what?
If you aren't really interested in attempting to identify the vandals, then please clutter up some other thread with your silly bs.
Granted, the statute may not have the desired result, but putting a name and a face to the carvings most certainly would.
I have not missed these inane internet discussions and will leave the space for further idiotic commentary.
Thank you Ken, Jim, Richard, John and Angie for taking an interest. The rest of you, please by all means continue your self-important self-indulgence.
Jeez.......
Johnny Richards
Naw....like OFG said -- he appreciates the attempt regarding the reward. He's obviously been around the block a few times too. In the end-of-life we all meet in the middle. He may be liberal but he 'seems' to be living in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
So Brad - go test the cave vandalism law. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a slap on the wrist. Maybe you won't and a judge will hang you out to dry to satisfy the 'liberal environmentalists'. If you want to keep diving the caves then you might want to re-think it. Meanwhile be a force for positive change and not whine about the toothless laws. Go lobby for a better wording of the law.
If that is what works for you. You are welcome! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Bubbles pollution and light pollution are very real. photons are physical and interact chemically and do indeed alter the chemistry. with caves that flush regularly, it's unlikely that the bubbles are a thousand years old, or that the scattered photons chemical reactions would long remain in the cave. crayfish and others may go into hiding with lights approaching (even albino cave crayfish have light detectors though no eyes - oddly the light detectors are in the legs), but don't really go off into deep unknown territories just because of a passing lights.
And yes, no matter how good you are, you have broken something in a cave and "defaced" it. Even the uncontrolled hand in the clay, or the oops scooter scoop, is at least not on purpose. It is the intentional defacement that I think we all rail against.
But then I think of the NSS and the published reports of dry cavers and sump divers blasting openings where none or small ones existed and wonder which is worse, initials in the clay or whole areas blasted, hammered, chiseled open....
It does seem a bit hypocritical to offer an award for DIC, but to then fund those who blast openings big enough to allow passage. One is intentional defacement, based on individual stupidity, and the other is intentional defacement, based on exploration for the "good of us all." Or is there really a difference?
Sometimes, I see it this way, then other times, that way.
-skip
Go to the NSS-CDS webpage, http://www.nsscds.org, and look near the bottom of the menu bar. There is a link to "Donations". We just added the Vandalism Reward to the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puttzer
I think this debate has gone on forever in Caving and Cave Diving. Are we glad Caves are open? Many had to be dug or chisled open to allow access. Some fantastic systems have been opened this way. It is done to add to the enjoyment of all. Initials in clay serve no purpose other than to booster one ego and do no good for anything. They are an eyesore that lasts many years if not repaired.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
We have dug out more than one spring in the past to allow access to caves. Usually we get thanks for returning the flow of clear water to the surface. We move rocks, dig out sand and occassionally push or chip a rock out of the way to allow the water out and the divers in. Very rarely does that show the next season. Access to caves on a permenant basis is acheived. Big, huge difference that anyone who has participated in a spring clean up or opened a cave for exploration can appreciate.
When you see articles about caves being widened or opened it is usually in the context of opening a cave for exploration. Yes, we impact our environment. We also protect the caves. Sometimes we just dive them for the heck of it. Personally I think I have that privilege and yes I do consider it a privilege. I do the best I can to see that the cave is left in a manor to allow the enjoyment of the cave for the next diver. I don't take fossils out of caves for my personal collection, I take out cave trash. I use the best technique I can but if I damage a cave because of a problem I feel Horrible. I'm not sure if that is something you can teach some because it is a part of thoughfulness for others. Will money help, some. Other measures are needed also.
OK, sorry, long post but this is a subject dear to my heart. Cindy Butler
I don't disagree that the culprits need to be found, that it is despicable.
But bear in mind that in public witch hunts, even the rats are hiding................no one will talk and all you end up is running around with torches, burning the next person to feed the anger.
If I am to be corrected ( i.e a rat does sing like a canary) I will eat humble pie
What I am saying is that sometimes quiet efforts yield better results.
I agree. Sometimes our first, emotional, reaction winds up leading us in the wrong direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by MengTze
While this vandalism is truly despicable and warrants prosecution --the objective should also be to ensure no one else pulls a bonehead move like that.
I'm not naive, but one on one communications might also go along way to discourage this kind of thing in the future.
Jeff
I don't know...at the rate we continue to post all this crap on the internet I wouldn't be suprised if cave diving is banned for anything but scientific purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Johnny,
You're a great cave diver. Bute entirely wrong on this.
It's YOU that is being self indulgent about this. You're just making yourself feel better offering this reward.
It ain't going to do poo poo for the caves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
They (whoever THEY are) can't really stop us completely from cave diving. It would be impossible. What they can do is close State and Commericial caves and make cave diving illegal. Once cave diving illegal our insurance will not cover us for any injury or illness that happen's "while performing an illegal act". You fall down, break a leg, have a heart attack, have a student or buddy die and you are on your own for bills. That is what will happen to destroy our sport. Frankly we will deserve it if things continue the way they are because we have done a very bad job of taking care of the sport ourselves. We have allowed gread and ego to overtake our common sense. Either we turn this around and become better stewards of our underwater lands, outreach to non-cave divers and straighten out our problems ourselves or we will hand our fate over to others who will do that for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by REastman
I think the idea of a reward is to get the rats to rat out the rat. Someone knows who did the crime. That person or persons may not pay attention to this forum, so it is necessary that signs be posted or the reward otherwise advertised and not just within the cave diving community, but also aimed at local scuba clubs and the nondiving public.
Such advertising could, if done properly, serve three useful purposes. Encourage those who know to rat out the culprit (who would then be "re-educated" a la' clockwork orange thereby satisfying the desire to punish and enlightening the person so future such acts are too repugnant to contemplate). Second, the public/scuba clubs would get a lesson in conservation, or at least exposed to the intense desire of cave divers to perserve and protect. Third, various officials and agencies would have solid evidence of the committment of the majority of cave divers to perserving the systems we dive.
A vigorous public compaign needs to be funded as well as a reward offered.
-skip
I can tell you I had a diver here from south Florida here at PSSP one day and he told me he did not pay park admission to a Florida State Park he was visiting in the south, law enforcement wrote him a citation out he had to go to court-the judge sets the fine not LE- and his fine for not paying park admission was $500, damages to a cave system I feel would carry a much higher fine-let's hope so.
Janet
You know Skip, you have a point. But it assumes the rat is a moron. You'll never get a conviction on this - but the rat may not realize this, and may rat the person out anyway.
Unfortunately, a) you've just let the cat out the bag by pointing this out so now it won't work anymore, and b) most people with a criminal bent know this sort of stuff better than we do.
(Sigh) oh well, back to the drawing board...
Guys, just a point of order. I'm not doing this to be a PITA. I'm doing it because I believe that we need to keep thinking about solutions until we find one. If we complacently stop because we're offering a reward, nothing will be achieved - because I guarantee it will bear no fruit. Let's keep thinking and debating. I do this in a positive, not a negative spirit - it's the scientist in me.
To make my belief concrete - I will donate $5000 to the CDS if that reward works in catching a vandal. And I will be the happiest person in town making that payment. I'm serious - I will stand by this commitment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
I want to thank all who have been making donations to the fund,and share the same concern for vandalism and conservation. Also,while I was in N Fl. over the weekend I appreciate the support and comments I received from cave divers and state officials.
The Florida Statute as it applies is not "incredibly dumb" Chapter 810 requires an "intent to commit an offense therein," thereby making routine use, or damage by percolation or unintentional contact with the cave not a criminal act.
The "DIC" incidents were deliberate and intentional and perpetrated in three locations at three separate times. An argument can be made they are three separate violations. I for one will visit the State Attorney and ask that punishment for each case be made individually with penalties issued consecutively.
I made the initial post augmenting the reward amount and others who followed did so for no other reason than to do a service to the cave community. Comments that have detracted from that effort are immature and not worthy of any more comment.
Rewards work! That's why they are not "defunct." /Ken
Thank you Ken and everyone who donated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
I would hope anyone who knew anything would not need $1000 to report it. I think the CDS got things going in the right direction with the first $1000 I'd almost hate to think that another $1000 or $2000 would make the difference that got him turned in but the involvement and vehemence is heartwarming.
Bless you all!
I think this is a great idea. Can we post an ad in the PADI magazine (or whatever most divers read) stating that there is a reward for this guy?Quote:
Originally Posted by skip