What is Appropriate?

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11-09-2007 02:24 PM
billybones519

What is Appropriate?

Events in cave country post DEMA lead me to post the following for discussion. I'm not interested in anyones "chest thumping" or "pufffing up" but, rational discussion re the following.

I parked over in the "Turkey Roost" on Wednesday and awaited my buddy. A group of 6 divers in 3 cars straggled in. While we were sitting on the bench working out our dive plan, it was hard not to notice their gear. Everything from an acceptable doubles cave riig(at a glance) to open water setups. I didn't give it that much thought at the time. The thought it could be a class crossed my mind. Yes, 5 students would be against standards, but 2 could have been instructors. (I saw at leasts three classes like this on Monday). They began their dive while we were setting up. Twenty minutes or so later I was leading us into th Ear. I stopped at about the level of the log as I could see what appeared to be an exiting team. Diver one exited normally. Diver 2 had a pistol grip light bungied on his right wrist. Seeing bubbles but no light I waited a sec. 4 more divers, no lights, proceeded to crawl out of the crack in the ear. At the time I decided to continue with our dive and chat with them after the dive. Alas, they were gone when we returned.

My question. As safe and responsible fully trained cavers WHAT IS THE APPPROPRIATE ACTION? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Note. Some of the cave vandalism we saw also makes this discussion relevant.

Thanks for your consideration

John
11-09-2007 02:53 PM
OneBrightGator

Hold them down and slice their jugulars with your z-knife. Let the blood of the unwashed stain the Devil's water red and their shrill death screams fill the air to serve as a warning to all the unclean who dare tread here.

Sorry, been reading too many "defacing" threads.

Maybe mention it to the dude who watches over the area? Or casually talk to them about their dive... then training... then cave diving safety and conservation.
11-09-2007 03:17 PM
crawford

I'd probably let Connie know about it and let them handle it. Even if you intervene not sure what good it would do, without having some clout (other than a z-knife dripping in blood :-D

If you see them defacing the cave......I'd take pictures, license plate numbers, fingerprints.....and take it straight to the man!
11-09-2007 03:22 PM
billybones519

Edited the post, incedent took place wednesday. Sorry all other facts okay
11-09-2007 04:36 PM
fixxervi6

Re: What is Appropriate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by billybones519

Events in cave country post DEMA lead me to post the following for discussion. I'm not interested in anyones "chest thumping" or "pufffing up" but, rational discussion re the following.

I parked over in the "Turkey Roost" on Wednesday and awaited my buddy. A group of 6 divers in 3 cars straggled in. While we were sitting on the bench working out our dive plan, it was hard not to notice their gear. Everything from an acceptable doubles cave riig(at a glance) to open water setups. I didn't give it that much thought at the time. The thought it could be a class crossed my mind. Yes, 5 students would be against standards, but 2 could have been instructors. (I saw at leasts three classes like this on Monday). They began their dive while we were setting up. Twenty minutes or so later I was leading us into th Ear. I stopped at about the level of the log as I could see what appeared to be an exiting team. Diver one exited normally. Diver 2 had a pistol grip light bungied on his right wrist. Seeing bubbles but no light I waited a sec. 4 more divers, no lights, proceeded to crawl out of the crack in the ear. At the time I decided to continue with our dive and chat with them after the dive. Alas, they were gone when we returned.

My question. As safe and responsible fully trained cavers WHAT IS THE APPPROPRIATE ACTION? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Note. Some of the cave vandalism we saw also makes this discussion relevant.

Thanks for your consideration

John

What vandalism did you see?
11-09-2007 05:25 PM
billybones519

Re: What is Appropriate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixxervi6

What vandalism did you see?

I meant the pejorative "we", the cave diving community in Cow and Peacock.
Sorry if it was not clear.

John
11-09-2007 08:17 PM
stickydeco

John: Unless you saw their wrist band(s) or their Hang Tags...ALL of them could have been OK to dive the Devil's System as far as Ginnie Mgt goes. Anyone posessing a Caven certification, or higher, can dive Devils with a single tank, with or without lights. Cavern and Intro divers have to limit themseves to a single tank, but I have seen a number of Full Cavers also use them because of bad back issues or for whatever reason they choose...even if they want to use OW gear and single regulators...it's their decision. So what they are actually qualifed for is what I'd look for...and not what their gear looks like or what they are doing in the water. Personally...I've got other things to worry about...like making sure that Wayne's Goats are a happy bunch.

Jumpy Jack :-D
11-09-2007 08:23 PM
Kelly Jessop

John you have to be careful what you do. A cave instructor a few years ago at Ginnie extricated an OW diver out of the cave,and ended up being arrested for assault.
11-09-2007 09:10 PM
defunct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

John you have to be careful what you do. A cave instructor a few years ago at Ginnie extricated an OW diver out of the cave,and ended up being arrested for assault.

Is it still assault when you do the same thing for a dead OW diver?
11-09-2007 09:35 PM
cavediver256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

John you have to be careful what you do. A cave instructor a few years ago at Ginnie extricated an OW diver out of the cave,and ended up being arrested for assault.

I remember that one Kelly. I think the open water diver was back in the gallery with a chem light, the instructor signaled and tried to get the diver to exit the cave, the diver ignored his direction, so he took the diver by the arm and escorted them through the ear and back into open water. He then continued his dive, but when he exited the water, a deputy hauled him off to jail.
11-09-2007 09:51 PM
MengTze

Are you kidding me? You potentially safe someone and get arrested. What if you see a pair in trouble, do nothing and one dies? Involuntary manslaughter? You can't win here can you?

But to OP, they were coming out, alive, no worries. When you see OW divers go IN, that is when I do signal 'NO, do not go further'. How do I know they are OW divers Jack? The snorkel and a dangling multi console usually give it away
11-10-2007 06:22 AM
Caver95

Quote:

Originally Posted by defunct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

John you have to be careful what you do. A cave instructor a few years ago at Ginnie extricated an OW diver out of the cave,and ended up being arrested for assault.

Is it still assault when you do the same thing for a dead OW diver?

They are much easier to deal with then, and you can check them out for any gear you might like. I feel this is fair trade for the breathing gas wasted hualing their worthless ass out and putting yourself in danger.
11-10-2007 07:09 AM
stairman

The snorkel does give them away along with the 8inch leg knife and safety sausage.
11-10-2007 08:51 AM
stickydeco

Come to think of it..once a diver is off of Ginnie property and in the water...there is ABSOLUTLY no authority for anyone to do anything about what the diver is configured with....in or out of a cave. Last time I checked, there wasn't a FL statute outlining what to wear (or not wear) in the water, unless Gillchrist or Columbia Co have something on the books. Think I'll build me a backplate for a Worthington HCA 4500 along with a couple of stages and go on a trip. :-D