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Bill Rennaker just called me to say the Suwanee County Sheriff dropped by his shop to tell him that Telford was closed, and anyone found on the property would be arrested. He wanted Bill to 'pass the word'...
Sorry, I have no other details.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/data/...m/DSC04693.JPG
its a sad day :cry:
That is very sad news indeed.
Ouch
Was there Sunday.More garbage piled beside the dumpster than could fit in it.Probably 5 or 6 tents set up on the bluff.Beer cans,other garbage and watermellon rinds scattered all about.More rednecks than wetbacks this time.If people would take their garbage with them,this may not have happened.Society as a whole could give a sh#&*t about a natural gem.Just toss me another beer.Maybe the NSS and NACD could contact the owners and have a combination lock on the gate for the ones who have been paying for the dumpster all along,
It makes me wonder if the owners finally caved and sold it to the county or state.
Well there goes my friday dive. This is not good news at all. It just goes to show you, that you cant let all the yard apes play in one cage. People can't even be a little bit respectful and apprreciative of other peoples properties. such a nice dive site gone because of lazy pigs that cant even attempt to clean up after themselves.
Bob Klauck
UFFDA !!!
And on me birthday too...
Guess it's my fault. :oops:
Dang it all !
Jeano Beano
I hardly ever dive telford partly because of the local roudies there. Maybe talk to the owners, organise a clean up and arrange cave diver access - might even be an improvement.
two of my best dives have been at telford, and its a sad day to see it being closed. But, along with any other spring that runs into a river, if you can get into the cave without stepping foot on dry land, youre good to go (isnt that right? cause its what ive told owners before!)
I was there the weekend before and this past Friday. We were commenting how there was a higher class of redneck at Telford. Friday morning there was a lady running around picking up trash and at least bringing it to the overflowing dumpster. She was even warning her kid to not dive into something too shallow which is better than other rednecks which I overheard elsewhere saying "Next time we have to bring rakes to move the rocks so we don't bang our heads on 'em!"
It's very sad to hear of the closure. Maybe something can be worked out with diplomacy.
It is very sad to hear about any closing of a cave system or land access.Telford has always been a place I've been concerned about since this site has tolerated access,but whether we were trespassing or not was never clearly defined. I recommend perhaps we collect information and find out the cause of the closure,at this point I can think of several reasons,and cave divers are the least of the problem. In the past owners of the property and law enforcement have had a positive regard toward the cave diving community and this is a plus to start a discourse. I would highly recommend that we avoid the discussions that usually come up in regard to "navigable waterways" or anything reflecting trespassing.
bump
I don't think anybody could apply the navigable waterway law here. The river would have to be way up for the spring run to be navigable, and whenever it is, the system is undivable.
I've a few dives in Telford and found it a remarkable cave. Sunday we debated going there and fighting the crowds, or going to Peacock. Peacock won. In hindsite I wished we'd choosen Telford so to have one more dive before it was closed. I believe Kelley's suggestion to explore the reasons behind the closing would be a first step to reopening this to cave divers. There will have to be a lot of restoration of that site to make it a safe, clean, and desirable place to visit.
Better run and dive it fast before the "word gets completely out". Can always plead ignorance. :lol: :twisted:
I guess my first dive in Telford last Friday is going to be my last. Too bad, now I can;t go back and find the treasure chest that fits the rusty old key we found in there.
john
Very sad news indeed :cry:
Would appreciate it if someone from the NACD or NSS investigated to determine the root cause of this change, and if possible initiate discussions to secure access in partnership w/ the land owners.
-Tim Owens
And if we could gain access, then this temporary dilemma could be a real benefit in the long run as it would make Telford divable even in the Summer without having to have an armed militia topside.Quote:
Originally Posted by netmage
The answer to your questions is yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by netmage
Y'all are right. Short term this is frustrating but given the current atmosphere involving this site this may turn out to be a blessing in disguise over the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by aw
After we know for sure what is going on, please let us know if there is anything we out of towners (aka tourist yayhoos) can do to assist? Letters, petitions, etc? I'm already a NSS-CDS member and I would like to help if I can.
Yes,if we could secure the rights to it,like Cow,it would be better off in the long run for sure.And would boost membership in the organizations that control it.The one cave left that you could dive whenever is now out of reach.
Owning it would be a bad thing for the cave agencies. It would need constant attention and patrols to keep the locals (who consider it "theirs") from entering it anytime they please and trashing it. It would be a major liability hazard and a big expense to maintain.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
Something like that happened when madison blue wa purchessed and the manager of the property ended up going to jail trying to defend his rights to charge a $1 admission fee (automatic weapons were probably a bad choice - but still).
Three things would probably help here:
a) Conservation and care on the property;
b) Compensation
c) Reduced traffic.
On care, I think we have a good track record. Taking the owner to see Cow night be a good idea - it's really near by. Try to do it when a group is "accidentally" diving so they can see the relative calm of a group of divers.
I know a lot of people are leery of paying to use a cave, but wouldn't it make sense to offer something? It could be as simple as a "voluntary" collection of $10/diver, collected at the gate, and used to pay for the dumpster, perhap a portaloo and improvements.
Access could be controlled like Cow- Cathy and/or Bill could keep keys.
A "minimum level of dives" rule could be enforced. Perhaps not as draconian as Abe Davis, but say 25- 50 logged dives?
Just some suggestions...
The problem with collection of compensation is that they then accept a greater burden of responsibility for the safety of the people using the land.
I am sure the folks at the NACD/CDS/etc know that this distressing news for a lot of us, and I am not sure if public speculation as to access plans is in our best interest.
I'm bummed. The changing nature of that cave system at shallow depths makes it one of the most interesting caves I dive. I had sooooo many plans to poke into sooooo many leads. I wanted to spend whole weekend trips just wandering through it's maze of tunnels. Sigh......
Things change. Perhaps someday access will again be granted to divers. I will help in anyway that I can to see to it that happens. For those in the know, please let me know how I can help.
Angie
Me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
I have just started to peek down some of the side tunnels in Telford. And nothing finer than Rolaids Road.
I hope I can help in some way.
Jean
Telford has always been "interesting" during the summer months as we all know. The past month or two has been even more so, an absolute zoo down there. The 4X4's have been riding up and down the banks with more frequency, making "new" trails. More swimmers, more trash and more campers than ever and the two shooting deaths earlier this year didn't help either. I can hear some of their car sound systems going up and down Telford Rd. from Cathy's.
I'm sure there must have been pressure for years from local homeowners to do something about the noise. With the way sound travels across water, I can't imagine living in one of those houses on the other side of the river during the summer months. I would have gone to jail long ago, probably doing something similar to what Mike Bruic did :roll:
Hopefully the owners can be convinced that cave divers are a relatively quiet/civil bunch (by comparison lol) and that for the most part, pick-up after our selves.
I don't see anything as far as access happening any time soon. The sheriff has to "train" all the undesirables first that the property is now off limits. Maybe we can shoot for some kind of access after the summer/fall when the weather gets cold enough where as most of the crowds stay away anyway.
Is there a sign or something telling people it is closed? How effective has it been? Are there still locals going down there anyway?
Only been a couple days since the Sheriff has been enforcing the "No Tresspassing" signs that went up about a year ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
It's going to be a long summer for the Suwannee Co. Sheriff Dept.
I'll take a ride down there later this morning and let you know if there is any new sinage...who's gonna post my bail :wink: Just kidding, I'll go to the boat ramp but no traspassing! :D
Cave organizations should make every effort to buy land with Springs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
I disagree and make my point with the area surrounding School Sink which had local families living on the property, in tents, raising children which resulted in great piles of trash all over. Heck, there even was a shallow grave from a homicide that had taken place there. Likewise there was an encampment at Cow before it was fenced, posted and gated. In neither case has there been any great operational expenses. To the contrary membership numbers increased to record levels after the purchases.
Ownership allows you to gate and properly post the property, allowing the Sheriff to be given the authority to arrest those that are causing problems. Divers can be assured they have a site that cannot be closed by the owner or other interested parties.
This appears to be precedent for these acquisitions and SRWMD had $20,000,000 in its operational budget for 2007. Hopefully TELFORD will be a replay of what happened at Madison and Eagles Nest after those sites were purchased by the WMD's. They will decide on the best management practices for the land and eventually it will reopen either managed by a state agency, county agency or an individual contractor. My doom and gloom guess is it will not be any time soon. /Ken
Okay. I did get some PM's from a few of you who fancy yourselves as comics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
While I appreciate the quick response, the suggestion that that I paint the word "Telford" across my chest and set myself on fire on the steps of the Suwannee County Sheriff's office in protest is just not what I had in mind when I used the word "anything" to describe the level of assistance I was willing to put towards this worthy cause.
While I may be a self-centered nihilist who appreciates destruction and senseless burning as much as any leftist W.T.O. protestor, I feel that self immolation would be counter productive at this time.
It was a nice try though. :bekhair
P.S. A few of you also suggested that I should just go "fornicate with myself". I'll have to get back with you on this as I am currently conducting a feasibility study and a cost benefit analysis for this particular project.
Just an idea, if the cave diving community could find out who closed it, why they closed it. Maybe we could make a offer of putting up a BIG gate blocking all traffic back there for them. Have the 2 dive shops up there have keys and waivers so if someone wanted to dive it they have to check in. I don’t think any of the cave diving agencies are going to get the chance to buy the land there right now but offering to help the owners control access can’t hurt.
Eric
Please let me know how this works out. It may be cheaper in the long run than keeping my wife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
:-D No problem Ollie.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
A while back it dawned on me that I have already been conducting research in this field since the time I was around 12 or 13.
I recently applied for and was awarded a State grant to continue with this important research.
Per the grant agreement I am required to submit a final report (Pie Charts, Photos, Video, etc) to the State agency by October 31, 2007. Since it is public record I will email you a copy.
If the owners started charging a fee to access the property they would no longer be protect be the Florida Sportman's Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
The Sherriff's office can't restrict access to private property. They are more than likely enforcing the wishes of the owners that access to the site be shut off.
What if they don't charge, but we just donate money to fence/gate the property and maintain it? No requirement to donate, but donations could be accepted through the local shops (if they agree to take this on). The keys wouldn't be withheld from those who don't donate, but I'm sure word would get out...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
As cave divers we have always tried, as a group, to be good stewards of Telford Springs. I hope the owners will see this evidenced by the NACD paying for the dumpster, Cavers doing several clean-up over the years. One thing I wonder was the owner consulted about this? This may just be an effort to reign things in a little and show the locals that this is really not a free for all and they need to be better trespassers :-D too. I really hope that we can be patient and let the NACD and NSS-CDS be the one point of contact with the land trust that owns Telfors and let them make the case for access. The only problem I see is that once they acknowledge access then they have slightly more liability, (see sportsman law). As technically trespassers we have very little rights.
Lets just all let the people we placed in charge of the Organization do the job we asked them.
Curt
That is actually being done by SCCI. They buy, or lease "dry" caves, and let anyone go in them. They do ask for donations, but don't require them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
http://www.scci.org
I talked with the Suwannee River Water Management District property procurment department. They have the property "land Locked" Nothing can be done with the property as it lies within the floodplane. No building or recreational facilities can be built. As a governmental domain, they have first right of refusal when the property becomes available for sale. The shootings and murder on this site a few months ago have the owners in a negotiating mood. In the end, this will become a SRWMD property, and then turned over to the state. As a Suwannee county resident I have been active in discussions with the management district on property procurment. Ken.
There is at least one 'dry' cave up this way that was kept open when the owner started charging. But, he charges for parking, not access to the cave. It's not that much, like 5$ a vehicle, but it keeps him happy and the cave open to visitation.
Occasionally someone will park down the road and walk up, but if you can get 3-4 people in a car what's $1.50 / head?
Let's clear one thing up. The two murders were not committed at Telford Sink. The murders occured on the road to Telford approximately 400 feet from Cave Excursion and at least 3/4 of a mile from the Telford property. Two makeshift memorials are next to the road where this occured. There were no murders at Telford. So statements like "the murders and shooting on this site . . ." Are inaccurate. True the murders were near Telford but closer to the Weigh Station or Lauraville Store than at Telford.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogDiver
I reviewed the property records and could not find a transfer to state ownership. However, its a given that SRWMD will own the property at a future point in time. But that is good since all WMD efforts are directed by statute to find the best use for the property. In the past, Madison and Eagles Nest went two separate routes by going to Madison County and the FFWC for management. Intervention by cave diving organizations then allowed for negotiation and the eventual access for cave diving.
It is important to support the cave diving agencies since they speak for thousands of members and are credible making them something the bureaucracy is comfortable with. /Ken
I talked to the people at Luraville Store and they say Telford was closed for a day but is reopened. I've gone to Telford and there are no signs or gates saying to stay out. The trash dumpster is overflowing, not sure what day they pick up but it's been at least a week now. Am I telling you to dive Telford? No, I'm just telling you what the people in the area told me about access to the spring, tomorrow should bring more information since it is a Saturday and will be filled with swimmers.
Janet
I concur,the weekend,especially a holiday weekend will tell us more. If there is an effort to bring problems under control then we'll see more law enforcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSSP
Cave divers have demonstrated themselves as good stewards of the property,and perhaps a clean up like that has been done in the past,may be beneficial to future access.
"I concur,the weekend,especially a holiday weekend will tell us more. If there is an effort to bring problems under control then we'll see more law enforcement."
I think I'm going to spend my weekend waching the police run everyone off from Telford, this could get entertaining............
Telford was open today,buisness as usual.I wanted to dive it but my buddy didnt.Two traverses and he was done.I also heard the flow at Little River was way down and wanted to go there too.So many caves,so little time.Peacock and Orange Grove was sweeeeeeet!
Latest update is Telford is going to be closed to the public, there will be a fence put up shortly. The sheriff's dept. does go there and asks people to leave voluntarily. Sorry!
Janet
Sigh.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSSP
Okay, I guess the setting myself on fire in protest option is still on the table.
I , and I guess everybody else knew this would happen one day.
Damn I will miss Telford.
Even with the riffraff that hung out there, it was a great place to go for free & when all the parks were closed, it was there.
Last I saw her was in April, goodbye old friend.
RIP
Mike M
I second this, really regretting not getting in one last dive a few weeks go :(Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
Me too. And just when I was Really starting to learn the front part of Telford. We were having a REALLY FUN TIME exploring Rolaids Road up to Beulaland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
A Sad Jean
It will be back. I'm willing to trade after hours diving for a clean park with security.
The sheriff's dept. was at Telford all day Saturday, no one was allowed to stay on the property. A rumor is going around a diver was arrested but we've not heard any details so I am assuming it is not true.
Janet
has there been any changes with the status at telford???
planning a christmas week trip to get back into diving, looking forward to seeing some old friends and miking some new ones
Still closed, no plans to openQuote:
Originally Posted by duckster3d
I thought I would post this from the Suwannee County web site....anyone want to call them?
Suwannee County Property Appraiser
Last Updated: 11/27/2007 2007 TAX Roll Year
Parcel: 25-04S-11E-1206300.0000
Owner & Property Info
Search Result: 1 of 1
Owner's Name HENDERSON R L
Mailing Address HENDERSON RIVER LAND TRUST
3501 S MAIN ST SUITE 1
GAINESVILLE FL 32601
Site Address
DOR Code (5700) - -
Tax District
CO - County Acreage 53 AC
Exemptions
() - - Map Number 00026A
Description
LEG 53.00 ACRES SE1/4 OF NE1/4 & BEG AT A CORLOCATED ON N LINE OF SE1/4 AT A PT 480 FT W OF NW-ER- LYSHORE LINE OF SUWANNEE RIVER & RUN SW-ERLY & 480 FTPERPENDICULAR FROM SHORE LINE TO W LINE OF E1/2 OF SW1/4 OFSE1/4 THENCE S TO SHORE LINE OF SAID RIVER. THENCE NE-ERLYALONG SHORE LINE OF RIVER TO INTERSECTION OF N LINE OFSE1/4 THENCE W ALONG N LINE OF SE1/4 480 FT TO P O B ORB43 P 563 ORB 345 P 692-699 PRD YR 89
GIS Aerial
Property & Assessment Values Tax Roll Year: 2007
Land Value $159,000.00
Ag Land Value $7,738.00
Bldg Value $0.00
XFOB Value $0.00
Market Assessed Value $7,738.00
Assessment Value $7,738.00
Exempt Value $0.00
Taxable Value $7,738.00
Sales History
Sale Date OR Book/Page OR Inst.Type Sale V/I Sale Price
8/1/1988 00345/0692 WD V $100.00
Building Characteristics
Bldg # Bldg Desc Year Blt Base Area Stories
N O N E
Extra Features & Out Buildings
Features
Not Available at this time
Suwannee County Property Appraiser - Roll Year: 2007 Last Updated: 11/27/2007
1 of 1
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Disclaimer
This information was derived from data which was compiled by the Suwannee County Property Appraiser's Office solely for the governmental purpose of property assessment. This information should not be relied upon by anyone as a determination of the ownership of property or market value. No warranties, expressed or implied, are provided for the accuracy of the data herein, it's use, or it's interpretation. Although it is periodically updated, this information may not reflect the data currently on file in the Property Appraiser's office. The assessed values are NOT certified values and therefore are subject to change before being finalized for ad valorem assessment purposes.
The GIS Maps are a work in progress and are NOT surveys.
Notice:
Under Florida Law, e-mail addresses are public record. If you do not want your e-mail address released in response to a public-records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead contact this office by phone or in writing.
Ready to put my money where my mouth is.Quote:
If someone from the NACD put it out there that "We are seriously going to buy Telford, give us donations" I would send 100$ today
So am I!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus