Ginnie Rules

I am starting this as a thought from the camping thread. Let me start with stating that I am not trying to make waves (bad pun intended). How is it that private places such as Ginnie can make and enforce rules involving what goes on in the cave and waterways adjacent to their property? I am glad they discourage OW divers from going into the caves, etc. but am confused how they have "authority" to enforce their rules on people in the public waterways? I suppose to some point it is that if we want to use their parking spaces, facilities and steps into the water, we have to do what they ask. But how can they actually stop one from scootering unless you have a certification say? Once again I am not trying to start trouble, but just not clear on how their jurisdiction extends past the edge of the water. I am glad that they have many of the rules they do, just not clear on their enforceablity if challenged.

Legally I believe it is very simple:

If you enter the cave from the water by boat they have no juristiction. Stay off the land and the stairs do as you please.

However, if you violate the conditions you entered the park under then you are tresspassing and are subject to explusion. Further you should have signed a waiver and agreement to abide by the rules when entering the park - else you are also tresspassing.


Other places owned by the state have been more forceful then that. The legality of what they sometimes do and restrict is much less obvious and has sometimes even been challenged and overruled by the courts only to be enforced anyway.

Ginnie Springs cannot tell you what to do in the cave system. They can, however, restrict your access to the water from their property if you do not abide by their rules. After all it is their property and you have agreed to their rules when you sign in. There have been people that do not agree with their rules and have accessed the system from a boat. I suppose if you wished you could do the same. If you do not agree with their rules there are other places to dive that have no rules, Telford for example. Telford: no hot showers, no grounds person to ensure that your vehicle is not broken into, no picnic tables to gear up on, no nice steps to enter the system, plenty of broken beer bottles on the ground to cut your booties on...

Well said Capt.

Please... those who do visit telford, spend a few minutes while you are there to pick up trash and place it in the dumpster. If the dumpster is full take it with you. Leave it cleaner then you found it.

Thank you,

Dwain

While I disagree with most of their rules I can see why they are in place. My take on it is that it probably has to do with limiting their liability. They are required to be insured in order to operate as a commercial venture and I am sure that all the rules help in keeping those costs to a minimum. They don't own the water or the cave but they do own the land that offers access. Enter by boat and they have no authority over what you do, nor do they incur any liabilty should something happen to you. As mentioned the trade off there is no showers, tables, and the like to make things a bit more convenient. A simpler alternative is to go elsewhere; I prefer Little River myself but even there you still face some limitations when using the park for access.

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Originally Posted by DeWayne

...I prefer Little River myself but even there you still face some limitations when using the park for access.

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What are those limitations? IMHO due to no limits there i bet the next diving accident is more probable happening in that location. Personally i like LR democratic atmosphere though.

I don't think I can post my actual opinion here due to Rule #6 :lol:

However, I can (and will) in other places, if asked... :)

Post it on your board under politics. I would be interested in reading it.

OK :)

There's a general treatise in that forum already on "Rethinking access"; I'll put something specific up.

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Originally Posted by ARY

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Originally Posted by DeWayne

...I prefer Little River myself but even there you still face some limitations when using the park for access.

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What are those limitations? IMHO due to no limits there i bet the next diving accident is more probable happening in that location. Personally i like LR democratic atmosphere though.

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Limited to diving only during the day when the park is open. Again, you can go there at night via a boat.

Back to Ginnie access and liability: when my good friend Steve Berman did not return from his Ginnie dive a few years ago I recall that Ginnie's owners AND THEIR ATTORNEY :evil: were present during the recovery effort even though Stevie had entered the cave via his boat. So, clearly Ginnie will always worry about liability no matter how you enter the cave.

I don't like some of their rules either and was frustrated when they implemented the new scooter policy requiring an Abe Davis or Wakulla. I already had many years of scooter dives in the system and then had to go out and get some stickers. Scootering in a "public" cave is a training issue not a policy issue. My opinion only.

Still, I accept the trade off. The facilities and security are well worth the rules.

All of the areas mentioned by everybody are very valid. But Ginnie will stop you if you walk into the water without a band saying you can scooter. I am all for safety and security so those areas are important also. But it seems like they are trying to extend their self made importance to beyond the waterline by restricting the ability to do that from their property. I don't scooter, so for me this is a mute point, but someday I may want to scooter there. So they get to decide that I am incompetent to do that if I don't have a card? We all know a card does not imply competence, frequently only meaning the check to pay for class cleared. I can make 20 dives with a scooter, pay my money to PADI and be a DPV instructor. I would be interested in a link to the site the Captain has expressing his view on restrictions.

Don't even get me started on why we can camp and then swim for free in the river, but have to pay $20 to dive. :roll:

My mistake, it is Genesis that has the link.

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Originally Posted by Diver Bob

All of the areas mentioned by everybody are very valid. But Ginnie will stop you if you walk into the water without a band saying you can scooter. I am all for safety and security so those areas are important also. But it seems like they are trying to extend their self made importance to beyond the waterline by restricting the ability to do that from their property. I don't scooter, so for me this is a mute point, but someday I may want to scooter there. So they get to decide that I am incompetent to do that if I don't have a card? We all know a card does not imply competence, frequently only meaning the check to pay for class cleared. I can make 20 dives with a scooter, pay my money to PADI and be a DPV instructor. I would be interested in a link to the site the Captain has expressing his view on restrictions.

Don't even get me started on why we can camp and then swim for free in the river, but have to pay $20 to dive. :roll:

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Yep, Their park, their rules. The reasons they have their rules have been explained by previous posters. The only place this thread is headed is downhill if you continue to bring up the same issues over and over. If you have an issue with their rules contact them.

Jay

CaveDawg,

I'm surprised that you have such a blase attitude to scooter training when (I would assume) you would have major reservations about letting unqualified divers into the cave.

The only thing that *any* certification shows is that you had enough proficiency to pass at the time you did the cert. There are two problems I see with a scooter: the increased speed you get while scootering means you do a lot more damage to the cave when you run into it and, if you have bad trim, you're likely to screw up a long section of the cave rather than just a local area as you would if you touched down with a fin. This doesn't just become a problem for the diver with the scooter but for everyone else diving the cave; perhaps for some time afterwards. Certification is the only way that places like Ginnie can get some degree of confidence that, at least at *some* time, you managed to prove your competence on a DPV. By verifying this and your cave cert, Ginnie have now taken reasonable measures to ensure that you are competent enough to avoid causing injury to yourself or others while using their facilities.

Be reasonable on Ginnie though. They're running a business which requires them to put a lot of money into staff, insurance, equipment, maintenance etc. Part of the big attraction there is the Devil's system, so of course they're going to try to pay some of their costs from the people who want to dive that cave. Besides, can you imagine just how busy that place would get *without* a cover charge?!?

On a side note, I always have a problem with the requirement of a fixed number of dives to do any qualification. This doesn't prove any degree of proficiency, just that you've been fairly lucky. It's perfectly possible to pass your Full Cave cert then make visual jumps wherever you go, always doing circuits because that way you don't need to go back through that really crappy vis behind you. One of the reasons I got into cave diving in the first place was after being told that I'd need at least 300 dives and an instructor rating before doing a wreck penetration course. I think I started my Cavern/Intro class with 27 logged dives and passed without any major problems (apart from the normal ones for any trainee cave diver).

I was not aware of any rules at Ginnie regarding scooters. Are they new? I have done many scooter dives there and do not have a DPV card. Was I just lucky not to be stopped?

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Originally Posted by jpdiver

I was not aware of any rules at Ginnie regarding scooters. Are they new? I have done many scooter dives there and do not have a DPV card. Was I just lucky not to be stopped?

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Yes, or you (1) look like you know what you're doing, and/or (2) own an expensive scooter. :lol:

Enforcement is uneven, but its there, and the policy is real as well.

[Reality is that enforcement of armband checks for divers in dry suits is difficult at best. The first time someone is ordered to doff a dry suit for a band check (ain't no way they can check it with your arms IN the suit) they're likely to never return to Ginnie, and I suspect management knows this. "Strong-arm" customer relations are not good for bizness, 'ya know.]

Ginnie has a scooter policy, which has been in place for about 7 years now. I remember when the new rules were first posted and I have a copy at home in one of my log books. I believe the rules were put in place to prevent accidents and one particular incident comes to mind.

A diver is to tell the Ginnie Staff member they are scootering, when they sign in at the counter. The Staff member then gives you a special color wrist band to indicate you are a using a DPV. I was also told by someone (not a Ginnie Staff member) that your DPV certification has to be from a cave organization to allow you to dive with a DPV at Ginnie.

Thanks Stu for bringing up the point that Ginnie is a private business and they have a lot of liability and expense associated with running their operation. Please keep in mind that Ginnie is a very active sponsor of many of the cave diving organizations and they also help the members of the Cave Divers Forum (example: the social at the end of the year)! I also want to remind people to :blackbar . Please keep this in mind when you post on this forum. Thanks in advance for your help :!:

I split off the Ginnie DPV Rules into a separate topic on the Main Forum called Ginnie DPV Rules.

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Originally Posted by Chip

I also want to remind people to :blackbar . Please keep this in mind when you post on this forum. Thanks in advance for your help :!:

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Wow, a moderator being moderated :lol: :oops: 8) What is this world coming to

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Originally Posted by Chip

I also want to remind people to :blackbar . Please keep this in mind when you post on this forum. Thanks in advance for your help :!:

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Sorry Chip....I don't have a corporation....does that mean I don't have to :blackbar?? :-D

Mike