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I think more sites should be open, especially the ones in "public" parks. If you dive a closed site and get busted, do you think that hampers efforts to gain future access to the site? Has anyone here ever been busted on a sneak dive? What was the outcome(s)? Is it a good idea to publicize the lesser known sites that may or may not be "legal"?
Whether the site is hampered by getting busted there, IMHO, depends on if the site is private or owned by some government agency.
Go onto some farmers land without permission & hopefully all he will do is kick you out.
On state or federal property you may end up in court & be fined.
All land is owned by somebody, be it government or private, there is no free land available in this day & age.
Although in some places water can not be owned, so you may have access there if you have a boat & can get to the dive area that way without getting on some body's property.
we dive a cave on a regular basis which has an owner who lives out of the area.
We have sent him letters trying to explain we were exploring the the cave on his property & wanted permission to do it.
We have never heard back from him & figure he feels what he doesn't know, he can't be sued for.
nobody has kicked us out yet, but you never know.
Some people search for somebody to get into a system on their property to know what it is & where it might go , we have a couple of places like this also here, but that's kind of rare.
To get future access, why don't you call the owner or if this is government property, go to the agency that controls it & talk to them about opening it up for diving ?
You have to start some where.
Mike M
You don't even have to say getting busted,just sneak diving can and has effected opening new sites. Opening of a new site is a trust between the cave diving community and the land owner,and if the land owner is unable to trust us,why should he open it up to us. Even if the majority follow the rules,the few that commit trespassing have tainted positive outcomes that benefit all of us. Have people been busted-yes. The one thing a "sneak diver" fears most is having their gear and vehicle impounded. One site that people are using creative entry rules right now,I have heard rumblings that law enforcement was going to impound the gear of anybody that is caught-in which case you may see cave divers lining up to go to county impound auctions :) Is it a good idea to publicize the lesser know sites that don't have legal access?-you don't miss what you don't knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Lanes
With all due respect Kelly this issue of impounding gear and vehicles is a load of BS. Trespassing is a Misdemeaner in the state of Florida I can only speak for Florida BTW, Please state the FS that you think LEO has the right to seize property. If you are arrested and no one is able to remove your property from the land they are bound to "keep safe" your property including your vehicle and gear. This may entail towing and impounding but this is a issue with the tow yard for getting it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
We are not talking about fishing law violations that we all have heard "he had one short lobster and they seized his truck and boat and gear and everything" Please site a case in Florida where someones gear was seized and sold at auction for Trespass. The fact is unless the land is posted and LEO has authority to arrest, you can't be arrested until you are warned to leave.
Who is LEO and what is a FS?
One of the most powerful law enforcement divisions is the county Sheriff,and whether he has the right to do it or not can be debated,but it can be your gear that can be confiscated,and returned at a later time...at their convenience. There are other sports that involve trespassing,and there has been a history of what you are calling "BS". As I mentioned,there is a popular site,that there are "rumblings" (posturing) that what I mentioned could be a future occurence,may be not. Curt-do you know any time that cave diving hasn't benefited by having a good relationship with law enforcement where we follow the rules, versus civil disobedience and challanging the law?Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
No Trespass signs do not have to be posted. If you don't own the land, and are on it, then you are trespassing. The owner does not have to post it, does not have to ask you to leave. The owner only has to call the sheriff and ask him/her to take action. It is the owner who will the press charges (or the sheriff usually won't get involved). County or State owned land have their own regulations on use and now of course the "owner" could very well be the local sheriff, the state trooper, or elliot ness.
-skip
Law Enforcement Officer...Florida Statute Usually FSS Florida State Statute
PLEASE READ
Whoever, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters or remains in any structure or conveyance, or, having been authorized, licensed, or invited, is warned by the owner or lessee of the premises, or by a person authorized by the owner or lessee, to depart and refuses to do so, commits the offense of trespass in a structure or conveyance.
(2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, trespass in a structure or conveyance is a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in
Im not going to argue WHAT a Sherif' can do in the back woods of Florida
But there are courts there are FEDERAL CIVAL RIGHTS violations Ask those guys in Misssissippi that are being charge 50 years later.
I am not condoning lawbreaking I just want to make sure people have the info. If you want some light reading go to this link
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...TOKEN=21808821
I agree we need to make every effort to open sites though landowner relations.
Need to add this for Skip
The unauthorized entry by any person into or upon any enclosed and posted land shall be prima facie evidence of the intention of such person to commit an act of trespass.
(2) The act of entry upon enclosed and posted land without permission of the owner of said land by any worker, servant, employee, or agent while actually engaged in the performance of his or her work or duties incident to such employment and while under the supervision or direction, or through the procurement, of any other person acting as supervisor, foreman, employer, or principal, or in any other capacity, shall be prima facie evidence of the causing, and of the procurement, of such act by the supervisor, foreman, employer, principal, or other person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
And the definition of posted land is:Quote:
810.09. Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass,
commits the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance.
(b) As used in this section, the term "unenclosed curtilage" means the unenclosed land or grounds, and any outbuildings, that are directly and intimately adjacent to and connected with the dwelling and necessary, convenient, and habitually used in connection with that dwelling.
Quote:
(5)(a) "Posted land" is that land upon which signs are placed not more than 500 feet apart along, and at each corner of, the boundaries of the land, upon which signs there appears prominently, in letters of not less than 2 inches in height, the words "no trespassing" and in addition thereto the name of the owner, lessee, or occupant of said land. Said signs shall be placed along the boundary line of posted land in a manner and in such position as to be clearly noticeable from outside the boundary line.
I guess the reason I get so worked up over this kind of stuff is that I have a problem with folks believing that just because it is rural Florida it is OK for Law Enforcement to violate people's rights and due process. Also since I was trained in North Florida It offends me that the stereotype of the big belly Sheriff Makin Yankees disappear still exists. I believe the guys going into law enforcement are professionals that wish to serve their community. Hell more than half the guys I went to the academy with in Gainesville were UF Grads.
Curt
CurtQuote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
I agree with you. There are a lot of stereotypes that need to go away,including the Sheriff Makin Yankees (thats pretty good :D ),such as all locals at Little River are rednecks,and cave diver are thrill seekers that trespass on private land.
Have there been any acts of civil disobedience in cave diving? What was the outcome? What if a group of divers went day-blazing at Wakulla (for example) expecting to get busted? Would they arrest 100 people for scuba diving? Could they close access to other sites in the park? What if cave-diving became a felony offence? Would you still want to dive, or would it then become a "moral" issue for you? I believe good land owner relations are best for gaining site access, but what about when the State says no. I think it is total BS that the State of Florida used OUR tax money to purchase sites (sometimes against the wish of the previous owner by using imminent domain) and then subsequently closed access!
This is a sensitive issue, and laws are different in different states.
In general, "sneak diving" can't possibly do land owner relations any good. If the land owner even *thinks* people are trespassing, he is likely to be hostile the next time someone tries to get permission. This includes the state.
One thing most cave divers overlook is the numbers of cave divers, versus the rest of the population of the state. True, cave divers do pay taxes, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the tax base.
The bottom line is, that we are lucky to be allowed to dive at all in state parks, and if we annoy state officials enough, they can close all state parks to cave diving.
It is true someone could sue for access, but that could take years in court, in the mean time, there wouldn't be very many good sites to dive in FL.
If you want to help gain access, do it through one of the existing cave diving organizations. They have spent many thousands of man hours over the years working with public officials to get the access we now have. Please don't risk losing it by sneak diving.
as I said, no signs are needed....."posted, fenced, cultivated"....any one of the three. signs definitely mean something, but crossing a fence without any signage is also trespassing. walking through a cornfield is trespassing.... you are trespassing even if there are no signs.
-skip
What you say is true, but in FL, the owner can't make a case against a tresspasser, unless the land is posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
#1 rule of sneak diving - Don't get caught.
#2 rule of sneak diving - Don't talk about it until you no longer want to dive that site.
#3 rule of sneak diving - Take the "sneak diving" specialty and learn to DIR.
#4 rule of sneak diving - See rule #1.
And they have to tell you to leaveQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
I want to take my gear with me and return to a simplier day. I am sure I could have gotten alone just fine with Osceola.
What a beautiful dream, I have thought of this often, to have the equipment I have now & go back in time to what the rivers & caves were like when there were no regulations & pollution as we know it now, sure some farmers horse or cow crapped in the system once in a while, but it was a far cry from 300,000 people in one area that went down stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawCaver
Not quite sure where I'd fill my tanks though, but this is a dream, I would have my portable compressor that ran on clear stream water.
Please don't wake me until tomorrow.
Mike M