Pull and glide vs ???

Ok, newbie question here.

In cave training, students are hammered with the idea of cave conservation and preservation. We are admonished for putting hands down, feet down, feet up on the ceiling, etc. Have been a dry caver from a young age, and a former employee of DEP, I take conservation of natural resources quite seriously.

But that leads to an interesting problem for me as a new cave diver. When is it ok to touch the cave. I remember struggling to try to get through Devils to the lips. Getting absolutely hammered because I didn't know the good line to take in, and I was running the reel. I remember doing Little River on the final day of class, and being told to use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.

Clearly, silting is not a concern in these high flow areas but how does a diver, new to caving, make the deliniation as to when it's ok to pull and glide, and when it is not? Yes, I wil pose the question to my instructor, but many here are also intructors and many who are not have a wealth of experience and knowldege.

So what say you?

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Ok, newbie question here.

In cave training, students are hammered with the idea of cave conservation and preservation. We are admonished for putting hands down, feet down, feet up on the ceiling, etc. Have been a dry caver from a young age, and a former employee of DEP, I take conservation of natural resources quite seriously.

But that leads to an interesting problem for me as a new cave diver. When is it ok to touch the cave. I remember struggling to try to get through Devils to the lips. Getting absolutely hammered because I didn't know the good line to take in, and I was running the reel. I remember doing Little River on the final day of class, and being told to use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.

Clearly, silting is not a concern in these high flow areas but how does a diver, new to caving, make the deliniation as to when it's ok to pull and glide, and when it is not? Yes, I wil pose the question to my instructor, but many here are also intructors and many who are not have a wealth of experience and knowldege.

So what say you?

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Good question that sometimes doesn't really have a rule of thumb. If you have to pull and pull,versus gilde then it may be more appropriate. There is one high flow system I dive that because of the amount of fragile goethite,I just suck it up and swim. Somewhere like Little River has harder limestone that isn't as brittle to hand contact where the cave can tolerate pull and pull.

I know a good place to start is 'slow down.'

Go so slow you think you are just wasting gas. Go so slow, its silly.

You will be amazed how much farther your gas will reach. It will keep your head clear. When you absolutely must touch the cave you have time to look for a hard rock that someone has already touched for a finger or two. Sure beats flailing for the next handhold, trying to keep pace with your team.

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Originally Posted by Dave Lizdas

I know a good place to start is 'slow down.'

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Yes! When I finally started to go slower, it was amazing how much the flow seemed to decrease in the caves. Also, slowing down will allow you to locate the "shadows" where you can stay out of much of the flow. Its all a learning process.

I've noticed that going slow is not the problem.

You feel like your swimming like hell & not moving.

So you grab hold of something to get your momentum going.

The thing I see is to know what your grabbing hold of & try to know the difference in the formations to know they are not fragile parts of the system & won't break off.

I've been in several High flow caves that you have to pull your self into & Pulled in the same way as I did the last time, but then one time, some little piece breaks off & your kicking your self for touching it.

So I'm wondering if maybe other diver's saw this as a good place to pull from & after time the continued stress on the same point caused it to crumble, but your still kicking yourself.

Like I said in high flow caves unless you have bionic legs you have to pull some where, but try to be careful what you pull from, in caves like Telford you can see the the rock in the floor of the cave is solid in most places & is much bigger under the floor, but grab hold of a point & a piece might come off (hence the kicking starts).

After reading what I've just written, what I'm trying to say is my opinion is try to pull from what you perceive is not a fragile point in the cave, but you never know, it could break off.


Mike M

Edit: After rereading what I have written I don't consider Telford a high flow cave, was just using the floor as a for instance.

Hey PerroneFord, thanks for asking... I had been wondering about that myself.

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Originally Posted by mike

I've noticed that going slow is not the problem.

You feel like your swimming like hell & not moving.

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That is the crux of the matter for me. It's not that I am trying to swim hell bent to go quickly. I feel like I am swimming my butt of and staying still. Swimming slowly, meams I am on my way out the door... backwards!

I suppose over the coming months, I'll be able to dive with more experienced divers and learn from them. When to go negative. When to pull and glide. How to tie off in high flow without geting pushed out of the cave, etc. I think these are critical skills that must be taught to maximize the experience here in Florida.

I'm glad to read that I wasn't the only one stumped about these things.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.
So what say you?

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Pull and glide is very efficient. I use it by preference whenever it seems appropriate.

In well traveled areas you will find established pull spots already in the cave from the dozens of divers in ahead of you. Using only well worn pull locations takes little effort to figure out where the best hand holds are, reduces wear and tear on the cave and reduces the chance that you will pull on a weak formation and rip off a piece of the cave or damage additional area.

I stick to the established handholds. If a good flood comes thru and dirtys up the cave and there are no freshly used handholds then I avoid pull and glide (yes I know where the handholds will eventually be worn but I don't want to contribute to the damage).

When I put my hand out for a pull my 3 middle fingers hook the handhold - kind of previewing the spot for a pull. Some clay formations look like well worn rocks, some rocks shift under light pressure, or you can feel a crunch as you start to apply pressure and you destroy delicate formations on the surface of the rock. :cry: Lightly grabbing and starting to apply steady pressure can allow you to abort a handhold hopefully before excessive damage is done.

The first 2 fingers are mostly for tactile testing of the handhold. Usually I only use the 1 finger to pull with - the leftmost of the 3 middle fingers (also the finger with glove protection). In many caves the rock is pretty rough and gripping with a whole hand and then sliding off chews the fingertips of your whole hand. Hooking, steady pull and firm pushoff with one finger reduces the chewed up fingertips, surface area of the rock being worn, etc.

I find careful, skillful scootering can produce less wear and tear on a cave then pull and glide. With good buoyancy skills and a light, maneuverable, underpowered scooter (like a mako) set on low power the scooter can provide direction and propulsion in places one would be afraid to contact the cave at all or even fin for fear of stirring up silt. I don't see many scooterers applying them in that fashion.

Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages.

Gary wrote:

"Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages."


This is good advice, I 've been trying to get better at reading the cave, but it just takes practice.

If I make the Florida Room in Little River on 1/3's, I know I read the cave pretty good (or was behind my buddy who read the cave good & broke the flow for me. :-D )

Mike M

Gary wrote:

"Slow swiming is usually the best alternative to pull and glide. Avoiding the center passage where the flow is highest, cutting to the inside of the turn, shadowing behind rocks that break the flow and just learning the cave passageway in general to find it's unique personality. Often there is a low flow path or alternative to many high flow passages."

One day I lay motionless just inside the door of Little River watching the fish, & how they use the 'flows' to their advantages. They would drop with ease into the most difficult part of the flow, & swim effortlessly past the cinder block & in towards the chimmney. I discovered how to use negative bouancy to drop from a high entrance into LR's main flow, & then turning somwhat sideways & using a half flutter kick & half frog kick to mimic the fishes tail fins. After learning to do this, I found Little River & many other sites with high flows easy to swim thru. Gary is absolutely right about his discoveries too, & we could learn volumns from his experiences-! One day soon, I'll be back into LR, but for now, it's save $$ $$ $$, until I can again afford the luxury of cave diving. I wish you well with your diving.

Jack E. 8)

When I started cave diving everyone told me when in high flow look for the white rocks. That's what the people before you used.
Another alternative to pull and glide is hand walking. In moderate flow like Ginnie after the park bench go negative and walk on your palms.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Ok, newbie question here.

In cave training, students are hammered with the idea of cave conservation and preservation. We are admonished for putting hands down, feet down, feet up on the ceiling, etc. Have been a dry caver from a young age, and a former employee of DEP, I take conservation of natural resources quite seriously.

But that leads to an interesting problem for me as a new cave diver. When is it ok to touch the cave. I remember struggling to try to get through Devils to the lips. Getting absolutely hammered because I didn't know the good line to take in, and I was running the reel. I remember doing Little River on the final day of class, and being told to use pull and glide through certain areas to make reasonable forward progress.

Clearly, silting is not a concern in these high flow areas but how does a diver, new to caving, make the deliniation as to when it's ok to pull and glide, and when it is not? Yes, I wil pose the question to my instructor, but many here are also intructors and many who are not have a wealth of experience and knowldege.

So what say you?

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Buy a scooter :-D

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Originally Posted by REastman

Buy a scooter :-D

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LOL!

Yea, I can see it now. Scootering to the keyhole. Whooo Yea! That's worth $3800.

It's great to be intro... but it sucks to be intro!

Bill & I did two dives this week in Little River, even though the flow is low it is still there, if I did pull & glide it was with one finger in a depression of solid rock something which would not break off, nothing fragile. The nice thing was when we turned to exit the cave we got to float out without moving our feet, my kind of diving. The viz was great, Little River is my favorite dive.
Janet

Yea Janet, I love Little River ever since it whipped my butt doing intro there, I always love going there to try to conquer the flow, but I was there on the 15th (April) & it has definitely calmed down for now(pray for rain).

Mike M

If you don't want to pull & glide, you should learn to "read" the cave. There is usually only high current on one side of the passage. It does switch sides often, though. The best rule of thumb is stay on the inside of every turn. When you pass a turn, you usually need to move to the other side of the passage.

Think of it this way, you are shielded from the flow if you are behind somthing that will deflect the water, like the cave wall on the inside of a turning passage.

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Originally Posted by FW

If you don't want to pull & glide, you should learn to "read" the cave. There is usually only high current on one side of the passage. It does switch sides often, though. The best rule of thumb is stay on the inside of every turn. When you pass a turn, you usually need to move to the other side of the passage.

Think of it this way, you are shielded from the flow if you are behind somthing that will deflect the water, like the cave wall on the inside of a turning passage.

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That's some really good advice.

I was recently diving in a river cave with my good friend who's a cave instructor with a bazillion cave dives. It was basically clay with nothing to hold on to, extremely high flow. I was beating myself to death, huffing and puffing my way to a headache, and it looked like she was barely exerting herself. Moral of the story, the more dives you do, the easier it gets to find the path out of the flow.

My instructor had an analogy: why would someone want to dive the same cave over and over?

It's like a golfer that plays the same course every week. Each round is different. The golfer finds that playing a 2-iron from a certain spot is more effective than a fairway wood. But in other spots, the wood is better.

A cave diver "reads" the cave, as Forrest says, and may try a different approach than the way they dove it last time. For example, in Cavern I was taught the ceiling walk, but didn't use it at all my first five years or so of cave diving. I have found that there are places where it is the best method of all, such as going through the Lips.

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Originally Posted by FW

If you don't want to pull & glide, you should learn to "read" the cave. There is usually only high current on one side of the passage. It does switch sides often, though. The best rule of thumb is stay on the inside of every turn. When you pass a turn, you usually need to move to the other side of the passage.

Think of it this way, you are shielded from the flow if you are behind somthing that will deflect the water, like the cave wall on the inside of a turning passage.

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While I agree this is great advice, it speaks more to someone with experience in caving. As someone quite new to caving, and not versed in the ways of "reading the cave", and as someone following the general rule of not criscrossing the cave with line from the reel, it makes this a bit challenging.

It seems to me, that cave education, marvelous as it may be, leaves a few subjects out that would be helpful to those who lack the experience to make some good judgements. This "reading the cave" is one of them. And I think some effort could be put forth in helping new cave divers understand the concept a bit better. Even a few slides showing good spots would be helpful to me. Perhaps I'll put something like that together for my own purposes and for the purposes of helping others.

This was one of the major topics of discussion on my app and full. It dovetails in nicely with all the global awareness talk. At the end of full we pulled off the bat circuit with gas and time to spare. I found that part of my full class to be the most valuable, day-to-day skill taught.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

It seems to me, that cave education, marvelous as it may be, leaves a few subjects out that would be helpful to those who lack the experience to make some good judgements. This "reading the cave" is one of them. And I think some effort could be put forth in helping new cave divers understand the concept a bit better. Even a few slides showing good spots would be helpful to me. Perhaps I'll put something like that together for my own purposes and for the purposes of helping others.

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I have to agree with you Mike, back in 97 I did intro there, it was my turn to run the reel, three students in the class, when coming out the reel jammed and the basin is full of divers so I'm trying no to let the string go and deflate my bc at the same time, I got control of all the string and one of my dive buddies shot to the surface and the other came up behind me
and deflated my bc & took me down to 20' I had stopped at 15, I never did ask him why he did that to me, by the way the instructor did go get our wayward buddy and brought him back down, he no longer cave dives, the buddy not the instructor. They all asked me why I didn't let the string go-I said cause everyone in the spring who have gotten caught in it and they would have gotten pretty mad at the newbie. It was very high flow then, this week it was just enough to float you out in a nice leisurely manner.
Janet

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

While I agree this is great advice, it speaks more to someone with experience in caving. As someone quite new to caving, and not versed in the ways of "reading the cave", and as someone following the general rule of not criscrossing the cave with line from the reel, it makes this a bit challenging.

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I need to chime in here, my instructor hammered reading the cave into us during our intro class in the Devil's system & through our full class as well as DPV a few years later...yea same principles apply with a scooter. Just because you have some horsepower clipped to your crotch ring dosen't mean you shouldn't still "read the cave", remain neutral buoyant at all times and good trim to get as much of an advantage out of your scooter as possible.

So, reading the cave right from the get-go is taught by some, your instructor did you a disservice not teaching this. I'm not saying he/she was a bad instructor by anymeans but they should have coverd this.

I'm somewhat dissmayed by some of the comments I have heard of late about swimming vs P & G at the dive sites. As an example, one comment I heard as I was standing on the stairs at P1 was during their surface deco a team member talking to another about their dive up to Olson & back via the Pot Hole line, was he didn't want to "come back here because there was nothing to grab hold of to pull & glide".

I think unless the teaching of certain concepts is codified by the agencies, this kind of thing will always be up to instructor choice. It's much like open water and gas management. Some instructors teach it, and some don't, but it's currently not a part of the curriculum even though it's a critical skill.

I don't think my instructor was "bad" per se, we just didn't spend time working on learning to read the caves. To be fair, I know if I asked him to spend some time on it, he would. We also didn't spend a lot of time on learning tie offs. These things tend to come with diving experience. And I am not the fastest learner, but when I understand something at more than a superficial level, it tends to stay with me.

We worked on reading the cave from intro through full. It came little by little basically as critiques on what we were doing wrong going into the cave. I think "reading the cave" is in large part something you need to work on through experience. An instructor can tell you what you should look for, but it takes diving to be able to really figure it out. There are a couple of systems that I dive on a regular basis and have figured out. I know the path of least resistance and how to maximize my dives there. This wasn't something I learned in the first couple dives, or even the 10th or 20th. There are also caves I've only dived a few times that I still have a lot to learn about. An instructor can teach you about SAC and RMV, but you need to figure out your own and keep tweeking it as your experience expands. In the same token, an instructor can give you tips on reading a cave, but you need to tweek it to your own diving style through experience.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

As someone quite new to caving, and not versed in the ways of "reading the cave", and as someone following the general rule of not criscrossing the cave with line from the reel, it makes this a bit challenging.

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A good thing to do for this have a big bright light and stop to look forward at the cave passage for each "leg" of the trip. See ahead to the next turn and plan your next push to take advantage of the turn and sheltered spots ahead. You don't have to be right on the line - mostly that's the highest flow area. The low flow areas are off to the side, up in the ceiling or down near the floor. On the way back out just get back in the center passage flow and let it push you out while you enjoy the cave.

A good light makes a lot of difference. If you can't see ahead you can't plan (except by simply knowing the cave) you can't see where the open areas you cane swim thru easily and where the line leads you into a low area you should be avoiding.

Unless you are runnig line in a new cave running the reel is such a small part of any full cave dive that it is like locking your car before you get in the water. It's something you do so that you can safely dive but it is isn't the main part of the dive. You run the reel to the main line and that's when the dive really starts: time to look around, look ahead, see, plan, enjoy. On a general dive you probably have an hour or more bottom time of which only a few minutes should be running the reel.

I'm generally free most days, even during the week. I live 30 min from Ginnie springs, 50 from Little river and 1.5 hours from peacock. I have annual passes so it's no cost to me. If you've got your full cave and want a buddy one day call me (er.. PM me).

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

It seems to me, that cave education, marvelous as it may be, leaves a few subjects out that would be helpful to those who lack the experience to make some good judgements.

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A cave certification is a licence to learn. Cave trainning teaches just the minimum for survival and preservation of the cave. Once you have the certification everything else comes from experience, mentoring, gear and practice - the learning that never ends. No matter how many dives and caves and things you ever do there will always be something new to learn or do. No cave course can teach everything you need to know.

I like to pull and glide. I like the feeling of sudden acceleration and the slowing down of the glide, then the sudden acceleration again. It's fun. I like it with my flat hand, and I like it with a finger or two. I don't like it when it breaks things. I don't like it in open passages, clinging to the walls. I do like it in small tight passages of high-relief bottom rock and little or no silt or when a big rock juts out and just begs for a grab, pull, shoot forward, and glide.

Reading the cave includes appropriate use of pull and glide.

-skip

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Originally Posted by skip

I like to pull and glide. I like the feeling of sudden acceleration and the slowing down of the glide, then the sudden acceleration again. It's fun. I like it with my flat hand, and I like it with a finger or two. I don't like it when it breaks things. I don't like it in open passages, clinging to the walls.

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Would you like it in a house?
Would you like it with a mouse?

Would you like it here or there?
Would you like it anywhere?

...

I like it upside down: those rare restrictions with screeming flow and no good handholds on the floor, I can sneek thru in relative ease by crawling in upside down on the ceiling. :)

I like pull and glide, yes I do!
If you try it, so will you!

Gary-! Now you've done it-! 8)

"Would you like it in a house?
Would you like it with a mouse?

Would you like it here or there?
Would you like it anywhere" ?

"I like it upside down: those rare restrictions with screeming flow and no good handholds on the floor, I can sneek thru in relative ease by crawling in upside down on the ceiling". SG-:!:

My lungs & feet are twitching now, & seemingly for no reason-?
Thanks-!

Jack

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Originally Posted by RN

We worked on reading the cave from intro through full. It came little by little basically as critiques on what we were doing wrong going into the cave. I think "reading the cave" is in large part something you need to work on through experience. An instructor can tell you what you should look for, but it takes diving to be able to really figure it out. There are a couple of systems that I dive on a regular basis and have figured out. I know the path of least resistance and how to maximize my dives there. This wasn't something I learned in the first couple dives, or even the 10th or 20th. There are also caves I've only dived a few times that I still have a lot to learn about. An instructor can teach you about SAC and RMV, but you need to figure out your own and keep tweeking it as your experience expands. In the same token, an instructor can give you tips on reading a cave, but you need to tweek it to your own diving style through experience.

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Well said...I couldn't agree more.

Fluid dynamics, or fluid mechanics is the science of fluids in motion. Hydrodynamics is fluid dynamics applied to liquids. Googling these terms will provide some interesting reading and some graphics of flow around stationary objects that you can apply to "Reading the cave".

http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/ar...luid-mechanics

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=2522&rendTypeId=4

http://visualisation.tudelft.nl/publ...s/post1993.pdf Excellent

Also, you can search for info on flow of blood through clogged arteries. http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/labs/bsl/...carotid_tn.jpg
http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/labs/bsl/gallery.html

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RN

We worked on reading the cave from intro through full. It came little by little basically as critiques on what we were doing wrong going into the cave. I think "reading the cave" is in large part something you need to work on through experience. An instructor can tell you what you should look for, but it takes diving to be able to really figure it out. There are a couple of systems that I dive on a regular basis and have figured out. I know the path of least resistance and how to maximize my dives there. This wasn't something I learned in the first couple dives, or even the 10th or 20th. There are also caves I've only dived a few times that I still have a lot to learn about. An instructor can teach you about SAC and RMV, but you need to figure out your own and keep tweeking it as your experience expands. In the same token, an instructor can give you tips on reading a cave, but you need to tweek it to your own diving style through experience.

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Well said...I couldn't agree more.

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Ditto !
I am still learning to read Ginnie (Devils).
But it is taking me less gas used thru the nassy parts. The more you "read" , the more you know. Experience and practice are great learning tools :-D
And listening to the more learned of our clan! (which I try to do as often as I can. I pick up some wonderful pointers from those with much more experience...Thankies to all)

Jeano Beano

Good Mentors are great to have, aren't they ?


Mike M

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Originally Posted by mike

Good Mentors are great to have, aren't they ?


Mike M

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Yes they are !!! :-D
And like I said , my Thankies to all of them.
I try to be a mentor myself , when the situation warrents it. But I'm still a pup , so I am much more the receiver. That's OK!
Always learning.

Jeano Beano

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Originally Posted by mike

Good Mentors are great to have, aren't they ?


Mike M

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I prefer Rochester Wide Bands.

I really think "pull and glide" should be a last resort. I've been doing a few dives with a camera. It's a freakin' monster - and when you use it "pull and glide" goes out the window:

http://andrewainslie.com/videos/harrys.wmv

Other than a couple of quick pulls with one hand going through the lips, there was no pulling there.

(Please excuse my rudeness when I overtook the phenomenally slow couple ahead of me at the beginning!! They drove me nuts.)

Pull and glide should NOT be a standard form of movement. One of the great pleasures of getting further back in Ginnie - Mainland is a nice example - is that the damage reduces quite a bit, and the rock becomes consistently dark with only occasional human paw prints on it.

Great Video.
I almost looked down at my arm where my VR3 would be to see how much deco I had to do. :-D

Mike M

Thanks Mike.

I have a very cool new video that I'm not going public with - but PM me and I'll send you a link.

Regards,

Andrew

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Pull and glide should NOT be a standard form of movement.

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I disagree on this. I think you use the method that's appropriate for the type of flow/cave you're in, and a lot of times, especially at Ginnie and other high flow caves, that's pulling and gliding, or pulling and pulling.

Brian

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Pull and glide should NOT be a standard form of movement.

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I disagree on this. I think you use the method that's appropriate for the type of flow/cave you're in, and a lot of times, especially at Ginnie and other high flow caves, that's pulling and gliding, or pulling and pulling.

Brian

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Why is it "appropriate"? The problem is that everyone has decided that if there's a white rock, it's "appropriate" to grab it and haul away. Then a chunk breaks off after a while... and so someone decides it's "appropriate" to grab the next piece. A little while later, the cave begins to look the way it does in the first 800 feet of Ginnie - white everywhere, debris on the floor, drag marks because people are too close to the bottom looking for grab points.

90% of "appropriate" pull and glide is more a function of the diver's poor technique and/or physical condition than anything else. My instructor strongly discouraged "grab and drag" . I wish we'd stop calling it "pull and glide", which sounds so very nice, and at the very least find a more pejorative term for the practice.

I once swam to 3200 feet in Ginnie. The only time we touched the cave were lips to past cornflakes, and again around 3200 feet, although even in those cases my instructor (largely though example) made it clear that grab and drag was infra dignitatis.

An interesting little swim is from Henkle to the end of the gold line. The flow is halacious - but a) there are not many grab points, and b) you're going to do damage if you do grab. So you either learn to kick, or you're screwed. And... believe me, if you can swim there, you can swim anywhere.

I'm not saying NEVER grab and drag. I'm just saying do it judiciously, and with full understanding that it has negative ramifications. Not, as on often sees, while swanning along the section between the keyhole and maple leaf, or in the roller coaster tunnel, or Hillier, or Hill 400, or all the other paw-encrusted area where no-one with any reasonable level of fitness should be grab and dragging.

And if the flow is too high for your level of fitness, there's always Mexico, or Peacock, or the other low flow caves.

A final point - I'm no uber ahlete - I'm 47, like my steak and beer, and exercise less than 2 hours a week. My doctor whines a bit about my laziness. So I'm not doing any chest-thumping here. Just trying to cut our caves some slack.

...Although a mandatory 2 mile run in under 1/2 hour as an entrance condition to Ginnie would be both entertaining and good for the cave!!!
:D

2 mile run ?

I'd be too exhausted to dive after that.

So I guess the problem would be solved then.

Only the strongest survive... I mean dive. :-D

Mike M

Andrew,

PM sent.

Mike M

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Originally Posted by mike

2 mile run ?

I'd be too exhausted to dive after that.

So I guess the problem would be solved then.

Only the strongest survive... I mean dive. :-D

Mike M

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Sheesh mike - even I'd only make you do it once!! :lol:

Once !!!

Hell, I'm in pretty good shape, but I have found that running is not my thing, unless her husband comes home early. :-D

Thanks for the link Andrew, great stuff.

Mike M

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Why is it "appropriate"? The problem is that everyone has decided that if there's a white rock, it's "appropriate" to grab it and haul away. Then a chunk breaks off after a while... and so someone decides it's "appropriate" to grab the next piece. A little while later, the cave begins to look the way it does in the first 800 feet of Ginnie - white everywhere, debris on the floor, drag marks because people are too close to the bottom looking for grab points.

90% of "appropriate" pull and glide is more a function of the diver's poor technique and/or physical condition than anything else. My instructor strongly discouraged "grab and drag" . I wish we'd stop calling it "pull and glide", which sounds so very nice, and at the very least find a more pejorative term for the practice.

I once swam to 3200 feet in Ginnie. The only time we touched the cave were lips to past cornflakes, and again around 3200 feet, although even in those cases my instructor (largely though example) made it clear that grab and drag was infra dignitatis.

An interesting little swim is from Henkle to the end of the gold line. The flow is halacious - but a) there are not many grab points, and b) you're going to do damage if you do grab. So you either learn to kick, or you're screwed. And... believe me, if you can swim there, you can swim anywhere.

I'm not saying NEVER grab and drag. I'm just saying do it judiciously, and with full understanding that it has negative ramifications. Not, as on often sees, while swanning along the section between the keyhole and maple leaf, or in the roller coaster tunnel, or Hillier, or Hill 400, or all the other paw-encrusted area where no-one with any reasonable level of fitness should be grab and dragging.

And if the flow is too high for your level of fitness, there's always Mexico, or Peacock, or the other low flow caves.

A final point - I'm no uber ahlete - I'm 47, like my steak and beer, and exercise less than 2 hours a week. My doctor whines a bit about my laziness. So I'm not doing any chest-thumping here. Just trying to cut our caves some slack.

...Although a mandatory 2 mile run in under 1/2 hour as an entrance condition to Ginnie would be both entertaining and good for the cave!!!
:D

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Pulling and gliding into the flow uses less energy than swimming into the flow.

If you disagree with that statement, then that's clearly where we part ways on this discussion. I originally typed this response using the word "efficient" instead of "uses less energy", but efficiently moving through a cave requires a bunch of things. The point there being that a better diver might move through a cave more efficiently without pulling than a less skilled diver who is pulling. All other things being equal though...

Balancing the greater efficiency of pulling and gliding against the increased impact to the cave is something that we all do as cave divers. You draw the line closer to "last resort" than I do. My point in my previous post was simply to point out that different divers draw that line in different places.

Brian

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

Pulling and gliding into the flow uses less energy than swimming into the flow.

Balancing the greater efficiency of pulling and gliding against the increased impact to the cave is something that we all do as cave divers.
Brian

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I have to agree with both of you. As Brian said, deciding to touch the cave is a balancing act we all play with. However, I think Andrew is right on the mark, far to often I feel that folks choose to touch over improving technique. I had a dive where a first time buddy was leading and chose touch exclusively. I saw bits of cave literally before my eyes - quite a bit of ground was covered, but at what expense? Even after pointing it out, it was the same - I did stay with my buddy, but that is the last dive I will make with them. In this case, there was no concern for the cave and only for going further, as fast as possible - no time to see the cave other than the to find handholds. What is the point of this, other than for distance glory?

On the point of less energy. I fully agree. That same "cave pieces in my face" (what I titled it in my wetnotes logbook) dive, I learned that in a true emergency, I can cover roughly twice the distance with the same exertion level and air consumption - I KNOW it will damage the cave, but if it means the difference of whether or not I make it out (or I at least believe it will) - I will choose to do it. I have not had to do it yet, but I know it is an option better than writing a novel.

I do believe there are appropriate times to touch the cave. Very high flow areas, as Andrew pointed out, like the lips. When exertion can be a real problem - a little touch assist helps. But also keep in mind - even in places like the lips, you can streamline your body to minimize drag and move to let the cave block some of the flow. It can be really fun trying to challenge yourself to figure out how to minimize exertion without touching the cave through technique.

I will also point out that touching the cave does not imply ripping out karst by the roots! I use the word touch because sometimes a VERY gentle tip of one finger is all it takes - but it is contact, and that damages the cave no matter how subtle - take for exaple Potters Delight in Madison Blue - a gentle touch works wonders for anti-silting and less damage to the cave results. You could wear away another layer of clay, gouge or otherwise with a fin or instead choose to cross touch down the tunnel with no finning at all.

I have been taught and definitely believe in minimizing contact with the cave and keeping its best interests in mind as I judge whether or not a light, firm or something in the middle touch is appropriate or not...usually I think not. I do believe and have seen first hand a point where it is clearly too much contact - I do not believe there can be too little. If you have to err, go no-contact.

Just my opinion.

Bob


Andrew - PM sent.

Good post Bob.

Cave diving as I see it is a balancing act.

Any time you touch the cave you are damaging it, whether you break off a piece or not, your presence & touch, even if it was just a touch damages the cave.

But go into Edwards through the flow & how do you get through the slit 120' down to the actual tunnel?
There is no place to get out of the flow, It is a grudge match to just get there & have enough gas to do your dive unless you take stages.

All caves are different & like I already said we are damaging them just by touching them, that is agreed upon I think, but some places warrant pull & glide or pull & drag as Andrew said.

I for one will think more about pulling & gliding (dragging) in caves that I should be able to read, I guess you could call it a form of complacency because it's so easy to do & not think about what you need to be paying attention to, the flow of the cave & how to master it.

Mike M

Wow Mike!

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I for one will think more about pulling & gliding (dragging) in caves that I should be able to read, I guess you could call it a form of complacency because it's so easy to do & not think about what you need to be paying attention to, the flow of the cave & how to master it.

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You couldn't have said it any better. As a new cave diver I have been following this thread and trying to weigh all of the different opinions that have been posted. To be honest, I really enjoy the feeling of a well executed "Pull & Glide," but I too will be thinking more about whether-or-not I am doing it out of "necessity", or complacency. In other words, "should I" be able to read the cave better. I know that I myself have been guilty of a pull-and-glide out of laziness, when I should have taken the time to observe my surroundings and get to "know" the cave. I'm going to make an effort to weigh my decisions a little heavier in the future. Thanks everyone!

Some nice, balanced replies to my somewhat overstated position. I agree, it's about balance. And if we all just think a little before pulling, a) our technique will improve and b) the caves will be less damaged.

Sorry if I came off a bit strong. But I want to scream every time I see someone pulling in an area where it's easy to swim!

Andrew, don't stop screaming.

It's people like you that keep us aware of what we need to be doing.

Everybody sees things in a different way.

I love hearing everybody's views, regardless of how they say them.

That's what I love about this forum, you say your piece & it pretty much stays civil.

If not the old rule #6 will come back & hunt you down . :-D

I have seen your posts & I have seen your videos & you do some really fantastic dives.

I appreciate any input you have to the forum.

Mike M

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.

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Pull and glide works with coral, too :-D

Brian

"Pull and glide works with coral, too "
Ohhhh...!!!!
Please don't !!!

Mike M

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

Pull and glide works with coral, too :-D

Brian

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Thanks for the tip. But I don't do salt water unless there's a wreck to see. The coral will be safe from my clutches.

Perroneford,
Don't get discouraged.
There is a lot of information in all the posts.
All threads like conversations in person tend to meander & wonder 180 degrees from what was originally talked about, what can you expect from a bunch of brains that have been nitrogen soaked for years. :-D
Just dive & find the way that suits you without harming the cave or yourself.
That's the main goal.

Mike M

Ok, I was absolutely kidding about the coral - maybe I used the wrong smiley :roll:

I think this discussion has been exactly to the original poster's point. Like many things in cave diving, there isn't a cut and dry answer that says "This is when you touch the cave" and "This is when you don't". So, you try and understand the pros and cons and figure out what you're ok with or comfortable with.

Asking "When is it ok to touch the cave" is like asking "Is it ok to dive a single tank at the intro level". There are pros and cons and people passionately on both sides of the range of possible answers. Weigh what you hear and make up your own mind.

Brian

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

maybe I used the wrong smiley :roll:

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Been there . . .

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.

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Now , now !!!!
Don't be that way , my friend !
I echo what Mike said above too.
(especially about the Nitrogen soaked Craniums) :lol:
So Perone , keep at it , please!

Jeano Beano

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.

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I'd hate for you to take that conclusion!

There are some great systems that can be enjoyed with a no contact approach. Peacock is the most obvious. Right now flow is down in Little River (or it was recently). If you're a CDS member, Cow Downstream is great.

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.

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Pull and glide works with coral, too :-D

Brian

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Hey Brian ,

You use the same smilie I use to show I'm just joking, just said that in case some OW diver visiting the forum, saw it & not realise that were were joking.
Remember being an new OW diver?
They will try just about anything they read & not see the smilie.
No offence meant.

Mike M

Oh, I don't think I'll give up on caves. I think more than anything, the conversation in the thread serves as a reminder that caving is the domain of the few, and shall remain so. When you're good enough, you're good enough and you'll know it. And until you are, you just aren't.

I've enjoyed the one dive I did at Little River, but I don't think I need to be squeezing into Cow at this point. I've got time for that. There's plenty for me to see on the mainline at P1, and other places like that.

It's dues paying time. I know. And that's fine.

Again, thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

-P

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Originally Posted by aainslie

I'd hate for you to take that conclusion!

There are some great systems that can be enjoyed with a no contact approach. Peacock is the most obvious. Right now flow is down in Little River (or it was recently). If you're a CDS member, Cow Downstream is great.

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I don't think I need to be squeezing into Cow at this point.

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The recommendation was for DOWNSTREAM Cow. There's no squeezing involved.

Oops, I think I just edited your post by mistake Sludge...sorry :oops:

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Originally Posted by mike

Hey Brian ,

You use the same smilie I use to show I'm just joking, just said that in case some OW diver visiting the forum, saw it & not realise that were were joking.
Remember being an new OW diver?
They will try just about anything they read & not see the smilie.
No offence meant.

Mike M

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No worries, Mike - no offense taken, but I appreciate you clarifying. And you're right, I can just hear it now, "I read on a cave diving forum that those guys grab the coral and pull on it because it's more efficient. All of 'em but one guy named Andrew who only does if it's a last resort." :-D

Brian

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I don't think I need to be squeezing into Cow at this point.

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The recommendation was for DOWNSTREAM Cow. There's no squeezing involved. The downstream side is a simple, yet beautiful dive.

But yes, upstream Cow is an advanced cave dive.

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Hate to tell you, but EOL in downstream cow is a "squeeze" for most divers... :wink:

Touché.

To clarify, you can have a nice little dive in downstream Cow without ever going through anything tight, but to reach the cave in upstream, you must pass through two restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

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Originally Posted by PerroneFord

I don't think I need to be squeezing into Cow at this point.

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The recommendation was for DOWNSTREAM Cow. There's no squeezing involved. The downstream side is a simple, yet beautiful dive.

But yes, upstream Cow is an advanced cave dive.

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Hate to tell you, but EOL in downstream cow is a "squeeze" for most divers... :wink:

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You're not kidding! But the rest is shallow and relaxing. There are some nice lines off to the sides for those feeling like running reels and exploring...