Civil Discourse

The mega kudo's thread was locked, but I just have to comment on a post there. My comment comes after:

"Marbry wrote:

You can report that you did a dive with someone. The problem lies when people start rendering opinions on others, positive or negative, because there is always someone that wants to disagree and it just takes off from there.

It is much simpler to eliminate those opinions from posts (unless you wish to privately inquire with the author) than to make judgements on endless shades of gray as to what should be allowed and what shouldn't.

The whole point is to ultimately maintain a civil atmosphere.

Marbry"

Is it possible to review the past so many years of posts, including the locked ones, flame wars, etc., and actually see how many times initial positive statements about specific people, shops, services, etc., became negative? I am not so sure that there is this assumed relationship between positive beginnings and bad endings. I trust Marbry's perception on most everything (ooops, sorry accidental violation!), but empirical data may be worth looking at if it's available.

And one other comment: I can't imagine anything more civil than what they thread was before the violations were noted. After the violations were "black-barred," well, things got a bit less civil, but that was cause-effect and would not have happened otherwise - or if Marbry's right, it was inevitiable!

Nothing personal Marbry; hope you'll still dive with me.

-skip
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I am actually a bit stunned at the turn my original post took. It actually got locked. Imagine that.
That was so far out of the realm of anything I anticipated or intended I'm starting to think that Johnny (Last name deleted so as not to endorse any particular instructor or opinion) is right about just remaining silent.
I'm kind of a loner and I'm not real quick to warm up to new people. So when I met the aforementioned people (who's last name is unmentionable here but is synonymous with a certain American coin made from copper) and they actually took the time to show me some cool sites I hadn't seen before and go diving with me they really made my day and I wanted to not only thank them but share the experience publicly with anyone else who might also feel like an outsider whenever they visit "Cave Country"
I don't take any of this personally because my life is much bigger then any internet site. I enjoy posting on here because I'm a better writer than talker. I think the MOD Squad do a good job overall and since they volunteer their time I won't be overly critical. Just because my knowledge (and Nitrogen) soaked brain can't comprehend the reasoning behind this interpretation of :blackbar doesn't mean it's wrong. It may be silly (Oh..It's silly all right) but not necessarily wrong. I can always just vote with my feet....or fingers if I don't like it.
I'm all for avoiding a "Flame War" at any cost.......................or am I?
:smt078 :prayer:

Yes, I agree, it is odd the turn it took. You'd think we could say nice things about nice people and I suppose we can. I have met many nice people and few not so nice ones, but the nameless couple are some of the best. I have suggested before and will again, that a separate topic area be created just for thanking people, dive shops, dive site personnel, and such, who are the ones that make cave diving safe, sane, civil, and go out of their way to help out. I just don't see the harm in it.

however, I do see the right of the moderators to moderate as they see fit whatever the rules are. I was here years ago, got stomped on about my first post and didn't come back for a year. It was really difficult for awhile to post anything without someone calling you names about it. Much better today; so if that's what it really takes, well.....it's a sad state of affairs.

-skip

I'm like the traffic cop that pulls you over for not wearing a seat belt - "I don't make the laws, I just enforce them." It's a shame a strict interpretation of the rule caused so much grief.

Rule #6 seems odd, but not allowing shades of gray has worked for several years. However, a change to Rule #6 is being bounced around and will probably be announced tomorrow.

FWIW, billyf wasn't banned for disagreeing with the moderators. He was banned for blatant profanity (Rule #3).

I have not posted here in a long time, and find myself checking this board less frequently than others. There is simply less and less information posted.

I suppose the mods deserve thanks, but I figure they would not do it if they did not want to.

Some boards become useless do to a lack of moderation.

I think this one might be the first to find the same fate for the opposite reason.

Shame.

Matt Lammon

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I'm like the traffic cop that pulls you over for not wearing a seat belt - "I don't make the laws, I just enforce them." It's a shame a strict interpretation of the rule caused so much grief.

Rule #6 seems odd, but not allowing shades of gray has worked for several years. However, a change to Rule #6 is being bounced around and will probably be announced tomorrow.

FWIW, billyf wasn't banned for disagreeing with the moderators. He was banned for blatant profanity (Rule #3).

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So people get banned immediately after breaking one of the posted rules one time?

Wow... guess lots of people will be banned for breaking #6...

That ban stick comes down fast... (having been on the end of it once myself, without any warning)

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

I have not posted here in a long time, and find myself checking this board less frequently than others. There is simply less and less information posted.

I suppose the mods deserve thanks, but I figure they would not do it if they did not want to.

Some boards become useless do to a lack of moderation.

I think this one might be the first to find the same fate for the opposite reason.

Shame.

Matt Lammon

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Matt,

As we all know, public forums can go through "cycles".

I hope that this is just a cycle and that some of the issues lately get cleared up a bit and maybe even "relaxed" for the sake of brining the forum activity back to what it has been in the past.

Personally I think this board can be a great place with many active members if some "shifts" can be made to bring it back "on track" and encourage people to want to come here.

Where is Herbie when you need him? :-D

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I'm like the traffic cop that pulls you over for not wearing a seat belt - "I don't make the laws, I just enforce them." It's a shame a strict interpretation of the rule caused so much grief.

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There's quite a bit of difference between a warning and beating someone down. (sorry, the deputy came out in me)

According to the "strict"interpretation of rule 6, I can't get a recommendation of where to get a good burger or who to call if I need a reg fixed.

I have thought rule 6 needed an overhaul for a time, I am looking foward to the descision and hope it opens up more informed discusion rather than quelling it. I do thanks for admins for seeing the member side and giving their opinions some considerations!

I like this board, it foregoes the crap and egos that seem to dominate the internet, but it seems like we hold back everything at all cost because something might or could happen.

I agree with you completely. This board is and has been a joke. If you want to post something and not have your thread deleted, censored, locked, or banned, go use TDS, RBW, or ScubaForum. Last time I checked, we lived in the United States, not China.... The nice thing is that we have the choice not to use this website, which I have maintained until now. It runs along the same grounds as a 'private' forum for the CDS. That's been a great success as well....

Every thread I have posted here that has been deleted or locked has passed muster at TDS, RBW, and ScubaForum with no problems. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

I have not posted here in a long time, and find myself checking this board less frequently than others. There is simply less and less information posted.

I suppose the mods deserve thanks, but I figure they would not do it if they did not want to.

Some boards become useless do to a lack of moderation.

I think this one might be the first to find the same fate for the opposite reason.

Shame.

Matt Lammon

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Originally Posted by dgschott

Every thread I have posted here that has been deleted or locked has passed muster at TDS, RBW, and ScubaForum with no problems. Go figure.

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Yeh, there may be less noise on this forum, but RBW is pretty much sensless banter and a lot of doodoo.

I prefer the lighter traffic. I hate wasting a lot of time sorting dribble and doo from fact or good info.

Dale

Yes, I just love those threads on other boards where there are 200 posts worth of he sux/she sux and 10 posts of real information. The only good thing about them is that people show their real colors. If you can't restrain yourself on the internet then you can't restrain yourself in other parts of your life either.

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Originally Posted by dgschott

I agree with you completely. This board is and has been a joke. If you want to post something and not have your thread deleted, censored, locked, or banned, go use TDS, RBW, or ScubaForum. Last time I checked, we lived in the United States, not China.... The nice thing is that we have the choice not to use this website, which I have maintained until now. It runs along the same grounds as a 'private' forum for the CDS. That's been a great success as well....

Every thread I have posted here that has been deleted or locked has passed muster at TDS, RBW, and ScubaForum with no problems. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

I have not posted here in a long time, and find myself checking this board less frequently than others. There is simply less and less information posted.

I suppose the mods deserve thanks, but I figure they would not do it if they did not want to.

Some boards become useless do to a lack of moderation.

I think this one might be the first to find the same fate for the opposite reason.

Shame.

Matt Lammon

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I think if you take the time to compare the number of deleted posts and/or locked threads here with say TDS, you will find that what is commonplace there is a rarity here. Look at the high volume of traffic that Karl's forum is seeing (yes I am being sarcastic here) and ask yourself why this is, if no moderation is indeed a good thing (that forum has become little more than a place to vent, not discuss.) You join a group because you believe in their goals going in, not because you hope you can change things to suit your desires.

I guess I won't be diving with you Skip, you'll be too busy analyzing past posts for trends. ;-)

I'm ready to do something though, you been out to look at anything lately?

Marbry

All good points DeWayne.

I like the proposed changes to Rule 6.

Without a doubt, this board maintains a level of civility that few can match.

I would just like to see more of it.

Skip gets a gold star for his revolution!

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

All good points DeWayne.

I like the proposed changes to Rule 6.

Without a doubt, this board maintains a level of civility that few can match.

I would just like to see more of it.

Skip gets a gold star for his revolution!

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I agree and I would also like to add that Sludge deserves a gold plated badge and nightstick for his policing of the rules. :-D

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

All good points DeWayne.

I like the proposed changes to Rule 6.

Without a doubt, this board maintains a level of civility that few can match.

I would just like to see more of it.

Skip gets a gold star for his revolution!

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I agree and I would also like to add that Sludge deserves a gold plated badge and nightstick for his policing of the rules. :-D

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But he is only allowed one bullet and must keep it in his pocket :lol:

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Originally Posted by DeWayne

But he is only allowed one bullet and must keep it in his pocket :lol:

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Only if it is a 7.62x39... So I can use it too... :wink:

As long as he doesn't get fitted for Jack Boots. :-D LMAO!

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

I guess I won't be diving with you Skip, you'll be too busy analyzing past posts for trends. ;-)

I'm ready to do something though, you been out to look at anything lately?

Marbry

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Hey Marbry! My teeth are done and I dove today for the first time since January. It was great to be back in the water - although it was a quarry (I needed a self-checkout dive after 10 weeks of no diving)! It went great, no exploding teeth. I'll be out of town this weekend, but back again Tuesday, so will be ready to go then. Call me.

-skip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Easy

Without a doubt, this board maintains a level of civility that few can match.

I would just like to see more of it.

Skip gets a gold star for his revolution!

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Kudo's go to Caveranger, who started it all with his praise of the Penny's. I can say that now right?

-skip

Just so you all know, I AM a Deputy Sheriff - members of the Russell County (Alabama) Sheriff's Department Dive Team are Reserve Deputies.

But we have to pay for our own badges, and I haven't ponied up the sixty bucks yet. If/when I do, you folks will be the first to know.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Just so you all know, I AM a Deputy Sheriff - members of the Russell County (Alabama) Sheriff's Department Dive Team are Reserve Deputies.

But we have to pay for our own badges, and I haven't ponied up the sixty bucks yet. If/when I do, you folks will be the first to know.

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Oh but a Caver's Sheriff Badge....priceless!

-skip

Sorry guys... I just have to throw in my thoughts, I don't usually post, but... returning to the orinal post...

Taking a hard line, or having a hard rule is often very difficult to manage. An example is the zero tolerance policies taken by the public schools. There was a story in the news not too many weeks ago about a first grader who went hunting with his father before school. He had a left over single bullet in his pocket that he failed to remove before showing up in class.. this 6 year old child with no behavioral issues or other problems. When he discovered he had the bullet, he did the right thing… he immediately told his teacher and gave her the bullet. She turned him into the office where he was suspended under the hard and fast zero tolerance rule… err.. rule #6 .

It makes it easy to simply make a rule and then blame your actions on your mandate to adhere to some rule without having to exercise any discretion or decision making.

As noted above, if past posts have turned negative after they have initially started as a simple thank you or positive comment, then that is where the moderators should step in. The moderators need to be given decision making freedom… not handcuffed by some zero tolerance rule that forces them to expel the 6 year old with bullet in his pocket.

Not being able to say something nice, without question, is just hiding behind the zero tolerance rule! Let’s give our moderators a little freedom to exercise some obvious discretion.

Just my 2 psi…

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Originally Posted by Tony

It makes it easy to simply make a rule and then blame your actions on your mandate to adhere to some rule without having to exercise any discretion or decision making.

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Therein lies the real problem...

Joe, of all people you should understand the amount of discussion that takes place about questionable posts. :)

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by Tony

It makes it easy to simply make a rule and then blame your actions on your mandate to adhere to some rule without having to exercise any discretion or decision making.

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Therein lies the real problem...

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Originally Posted by Jay

Joe, of all people you should understand the amount of discussion that takes place about questionable posts. :)

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Most of the MODs do a fine job with discretion and reasonable decision making.

Guess there are always bad apples in every bunch (some would say that I am a 'bad apple', go figure)... :wink:

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Guess there are always bad apples in every bunch (some would say that I am a 'bad apple', go figure)... :wink:

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Watch it Joe.... Remember (the new) Rule #6... No inflammatory comments that could lead to forum civil unrest... Even it if is true and about yourself! :roll:

This reminds me of a great quote ive heard...
"Civil Disobediance... Is Still Disobediance"

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Originally Posted by tj

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Guess there are always bad apples in every bunch (some would say that I am a 'bad apple', go figure)... :wink:

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Watch it Joe.... Remember (the new) Rule #6... No inflammatory comments that could lead to forum civil unrest... Even it if is true and about yourself! :roll:

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That's a new one for me... get banned with a new rule before it's approved and to top it off on a post about myself??

I love it...

Thanks Ru..errr.... TJ

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by tj

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Guess there are always bad apples in every bunch (some would say that I am a 'bad apple', go figure)... :wink:

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Watch it Joe.... Remember (the new) Rule #6... No inflammatory comments that could lead to forum civil unrest... Even it if is true and about yourself! :roll:

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That's a new one for me... get banned with a new rule before it's approved and to top it off on a post about myself??

I love it...

Thanks Ru..errr.... TJ

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Only you possess such talents Joe :lol:

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Originally Posted by skip

no exploding teeth.

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ROFLMAO Is that not the worst wondering how bad it's going to suck if there is air somewhere in your dental work.