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considering the insurance problem and landowner relations, why couldn't a cave organization get an insurance company to provide some caver insurance so concerned landowners could rest easy? If we had our own insurance, they wouldn't have to, or feel like it was an obstacle to getting permission.
I have DAN insurance, so something similar for cave divers, maybe different types depending on the kind of diving....?
-skip
An easier way would be to make all landowners aware of the Florida Sportsmen Act. What this basically says is that as long as they don't charge us to use their land, we can't sue them in case of an accident.
The owner of Telford is aware of this; that is why we get to use it free of charge, and he knows he can't be sued.
The owners of Trap and Kitty Sink (Lafayette Blue System) feel the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
way :-D
Besides even if you put all cave divers into a group purchase and EVERYONE participated, the group would still be small compared to the statistical losses...the actuaries would probalbly have a heart attack over the data, and as well the members when they saw the premium. Most life insurance companies put a "no Scuba" exemption. Won't even talk cave diving. We would probably have to go through Lloyds and get an "Alpine Climbers" type policy :)
Safe Diving
Lee
That is done in England, and Australia, and it makes belonging to the only local organization *very* expensive. You aren't allowed in some sites, unless you are a member of the organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Like Slüdge and lonestarfl said, we are lucky to have the FL laws, and should leave well enough alone. Tennessee might be a different matter....
There is also a website that explains the sportsmans laws in each state. You guys need to start thinking a little more National and Global. Cave diving is everywhere these days. I have convinced a few reluctant land owners with a well written waiver, some maps and the sportman law. I also point out to them that I have DAN insurance and show them my card. Most people who sue in car accidents do so because they are trying to pay bills for Hospitals etc or for car damage. If the land owner knows you can pay for your own lost gear and injuries they know you will be less likely to sue. I'll look for that link later, Cindy :)
I've heard Tennessee also has a sportsmen's law similar to what you describe in Florida....we dive some sites based on that already.
In terms of insurance I was thinking more like "I will not sue" insurance and If I do or if my family does, then My Personal Insurance will take over so it won't come out of your pocket.
I saw a waiver on a boat dive a few years ago that said if anyone sues the boat/captain/charter then any settlement awarded by courts would come out of the injured/deceased's estate! It was pretty clear that the diver was agreeing to pay all court costs and the settlement if a family member sued. I thought it was a creative way around the standard waiver. I used to have a copy around here somewhere....
Anyway, some sort of insurance like that, rather than a life/disable type policy, might not be so expensive, even with a small group policy? I'm not a lawyer and I'm not an insurance policy writer, but when you add in the sportsmen's law(s) for those state with them, it seems a reasonable policy could be hammered out if an organization would pursue it....which really means one person in an organization I guess!
Cindy, I'd like to see the info you have, if you can round it up....and now I'm off to find out what I can about our local sportsmen's law.
-skip
Skip,
Your local NSS Grotto might have some insight on how this works in your local area. I have a feeling they go play in caves on private property. Heck, Cindy told me she heard their was one or two dry caves up there in Tennessee !!!! :-D
I found the law:
Title 70. Wildlife Resources
Chapter 7. Liability of Landowner to Persons Using Land
Part 1. General Provisions
§ 70-7-102. Landowners; safety; duty of care
The landowner, lessee, occupant, or any person in control of land or premises owes no duty of care to keep such land or premises safe for entry or use by others for such recreational activities as hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, water sports, white water rafting, canoeing, hiking, sightseeing, animal riding, bird watching, dog training, boating, caving, fruit and vegetable picking for the participant's own use, nature and historical studies and research, rock climbing, skeet and trap shooting, skiing, off-road vehicle riding, and cutting or removing wood for the participant's own use, nor shall such landowner be required to give any warning of hazardous conditions, uses of, structures, or activities on such land or premises to any person entering on such land or premises for such purposes, except as provided in § 70-7- 104.
And this:
5. Immunity
Landowner's failure to place a "no trespassing" sign on boundary of her property, or to place warning sign outside cave located on her property, did not amount to grossly negligent behavior such as would trigger exception to immunity defense set forth in Recreational Use Statutes, and thus landowner was immune from liability in action arising from death of child who fell from ledge in cave. Bishop v. Beckner, 2002, 109 S.W.3d 725, appeal denied, recommended for publication. Negligence 1197
i also found a whole lot of similar statutes in place in other states, in fact it seems most states have some such law, mostly so that landowners can't be sued for hunting accidents on their property, but many like Tennessee that cover all recreational activities, whether it's posted no trespassing or not.
nic160, I have the landowner permission forms from The Tennessee Cave Survey, and the Southeastern Cave Conservancy, but neither refer to this particular law (maybe they should), and both seem unduly burdensome, more likely to scare off a landowner than get him/her to sign on the dotted line. Indeed, this law appears to negate the need for landowners to sign anything.
-skip
I also found in the Tennessee Hunter's Guide, a cut-out card that is to be signed by the landowner and the hunter, providing for hunting on private property with permission. I think it's more so the hunter can prove he/she has permission from landowner when confronted by an agent of Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency (the dreaded poacher police).
Anyway, the way I see it, in Tennessee, is that landowners need not fear being sued by cave divers or families - the law also has summaries of all the prior court trials and decisions like the one about the child falling in a cave (landowner not liable).
Even though all these laws exist, you can still sue the landowner. Most likely the case would ust get thrown out based on these recreational use type laws, but the landowner still has to go through the hassle of dealing with the law suit. Texas has a very similar law, but it does not stop people from filing suit. They don't win in most cases, but the landowner has to deal with the initial law suit.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
The idea of the law Ryan is to prevent such cases from being heard by the courts. An individual can file anything they want, but the defendant need not worry unless a court actually agrees to hear the case. If the court refuses to hear the case, the land owner will not be out any expenses.
I am a member if the SQS http://www.speleo.qc.ca/ and there is insurance available through membership that protects the landowner of acts made by members.This helps quite a bit in negotiating cave access with landowners as the site can be brought under the insurance umbrella for member activities on site.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
The insurance does not protect the caver of liability though.The dues are reasonable (under $40 yr)The policy is written through Lloyds of London.
Your area has different laws and systems so i am not sure what could be done there.
This is just an example of what one group of cavers has done.
I would be happy to pay the higher dues if we could have liability insurance for cavers such as the Brits do.