Questions on Training

I plan to begin my cave diving training this year. While there are a few instructors locally, I have yet to meet one that I feel comfortable training with. Also, I seem to get a very wide range of answers to exactly what the training involves. Some seem motivated only by $$ while one or two make it sound like I could be "Full Cave" in a matter of weeks with some local quarry training and a short trip to Florida. While I'm sure there are many varying opinions here as well, I was hoping to get some help with a few "Newbie" questions about cave diving training:

How important is it to have a "local" instructor for cave training?
- I live in OH... If my cave instructor is in Florida, will this be a big problem?

How long should I expect to spend at each level?
- From some websites and local instructors it looks like I could combine Cavern and Intro in one week and then Apprentice / Full Cave the next and be Full Cave certified... Can this be true?

(Not that I want to rush thru that quickly.... but I've also been told to expect about 2-3 years along with years salary to get to Full Cave. :roll:
I just want to know what a reasonable expectation is)

I know you can't recommend specific instructors, but any other tips or information about choosing a cave diving instructor would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help! :D

Johnny 5

Hey Johnny,

I live in CA, and a big group of us have done our training over the last couple of years. So I'll give a "student' perspective.

1) No problem with out of town. Many people do this.

2) We've had LA peope doing this every way from one class at a time to all 4 in 8 days. If you're a local I think it's great to do one at a time, and practice in between, but most of us can't do this. And the 7-8 day mega class is IMHO too damn much. Doing cavern/intro, then a diving trip, then app/full on three trips each 5 to 7 days long is the best way to go I think. The extra practice really helps.

3) I think the classes go for anywhere from $250 to $450 depending on instructor, number in class etc so a max of $1800, and probably less with a group. But the bg thing is gear - man oh man, gear! I now have about $8000 of gear that just sits in High Springs for cave trips. but a lot you can rent etc.. I'd budget about $1000 to $2000 depending on what you already have. Lastly you need accommodation, transport etc - remember to budget for that too for each trip. Oh - and $25 or so a day to use Ginnie.

It is my never-humble opinion that all four levels of cave training should be at least several months apart, with at least a dozen dives between levels. That's my opinion.

It is also my opinion that during a cave diver's first hundred cave dives, he/she should not allow more than a couple of months to elapse without diving. I'm not a local, but it is only 250 miles to cave country. In your case, diving in quarries with doubles, practicing with reels, should keep you sharp.

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

Here's another opinion that's sure to tick somebody off: I wouldn't use an instructor that teaches cave diving full time. (Somebody that owns a shop doesn't fall into this category, as his shop is his job.) The reason I say this is that guys move to cave country to teach cave diving full time, for the love of cave diving, but before long it's all about the money.

To me, the ideal instructor has a full-time job someplace besides cave country, but he goes there several times a month to teach. You know, like my instructor did . . .

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

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I have come across a few that have the necessary qualifications to teach cave diving, but, while I may be able to agree with you that the instructor does not need to be a "full time" cave instructor, the guys I have met are way too "part time" and seem to just be looking for the next sucker to give them an all-expense paid trip to the springs of Florida. :x

(Not trying to tick-off any caving instructors in OH... keep in mind I've only met a few. I'm sure there are some good ones here.)

Taking time between levels seems a good plan. I guess I was thinking of combining Cavern and intro in one trip, practicing, and then returning for apprentice and full on another trip a few months later.... more practice, etc.

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Originally Posted by Johnny5

Cavern and intro in one trip

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If you have your own doubles and are totally comfortable in them, this isn't all that bad an idea.

However, I would still do Apprentice and Full at different times. There's just so much to learn.

I'm only at the ~intro/apprentice level (GUe has a different structure) but I'll offer my presepctives as a recent cave student.

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How important is it to have a "local" instructor for cave training?

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Not relevant, at least it wasn't for me. Find someone who has taken a class from the instructor though. Preferably about half a dozen. Ask them what was involved, how many dives, where, etc. Get referenecs and check them! Also you need to ask tough questions of your instructor. Others here can help with this issue.

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How long should I expect to spend at each level?
- From some websites and local instructors it looks like I could combine Cavern and Intro in one week and then Apprentice / Full Cave the next and be Full Cave certified... Can this be true?

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Theoretically yes. But you're compromising your safety and learning by blitzing along. I would guess (not there yet myself) that you need 25-50 dives at each level in order for the skills to be totally absorbed and have the brain sponge ready for more. Any less and you will still be addressing the issues and skills in the earlier classes as you pile on the later classes. A card is really just a license to learn. I know I need the out of class experience.

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(Not that I want to rush thru that quickly.... but I've also been told to expect about 2-3 years along with years salary to get to Full Cave.
I just want to know what a reasonable expectation is)

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This is my plan.

Richard

I would recommend :blackbar & a great guy.
I would go down & do intro to cave, come home & digest what you've just been through & learned, then go and do about 25-30 cave dives before you go back for full cave ( after the intro class you will be too worn out to want to go any further anyway).
You need a few dives in between to get more experence in the cave element before going back for more abuse. :-D

Mike M

So - Let me tell you something about instruction.... You're not going to eventually go to a CCR, are you? :) (I'm just kidding)

Seriously - I feel that there is a good argument for doing cavern/intro, then apprentice/full a little bit later, HOWEVER, I also think there is a valid argument to do them with little to no diving in between. That is to avoid bad habits. It's better and easier not to get into bad habits rather than breaking bad habits. I'm just being devils advocate to the last post.

I personally did my cavern/intro - did some diving and about 6 months later did my apprentice/full. I felt comfy in the water, and things went well. Everyone's different, and I have seen some people that need more time and some that need less time. It's probably something best to chat with your instructor about. I would schedule cavern/intro, then ask your instructor what he or she feels should be the progression. That was how I did it.

As an edit - If we are giving recommendations for instructors, I would highly recommend :blackbar .

:blackbar is a new instructor (NAUI & NACD) - I didn't take my cave courses with him, but I did do my trimix courses and he was excellent. I would expect him to be an excellent cavern/cave instructor as well.

Both of them live down there and dive all the time.

dgschott,

As I posted at almost the same time you did I am guessing your referring to the post above mine.
Anyway, Your instructor should have gotten you on the right track as far as gear configuration & bad habits in the intro class, right ?
It's up to you to keep them up & progress with your diving skills.
I do agree there are some who are naturals for this sport who can jump right in & keep going but, lack the hands on experience that only comes with being around those who have done this for a long, long time.

Mike M

I agree with David Schott's opinion of :blackbar
He was the instructor in training when I was doing my intro class.
Very Professional & knows cave diving inside out.

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Originally Posted by Johnny5

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

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ITaking time between levels seems a good plan. I guess I was thinking of combining Cavern and intro in one trip, practicing, and then returning for apprentice and full on another trip a few months later.... more practice, etc.

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Actually, out of the four classes, I think Cavern is the hardest. That's the class that turns you from an OW diver into an overhead environment diver, and I think really has the most material to learn. I took that class, practiced what i was taught for about a year, and then took Intro, Apprentice and Full relatively quickly after that (Another 1.5 years total). Whatever you do, I would definitely stay away from the 4 class super cert. I think you'd forget more of the little details that help keep you alive in a cave. My 0.02

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Here's another opinion that's sure to tick somebody off:

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I got a very polite PM from a full-time cave instructor that disagreed with my assessment of full-time cave instructors. I must acknowledge that I don't know every instructor (I don't know him), and my opinions are based on a few that I know personally, and have known for a number of years.

Sorry.
Forgot about rule # 6.

Mike M

Sorry - But I'm blaming it all on Mike for starting it! lol! Anyway - If you want to know the Rule #6 blackout, PM me.....

Hey partner its very important which instructor you select. Basically he/she should asess your skills during intro cavern /intro cave. At that time a good instructor will know if you are capable of going ahead with further training. There are divers for instance like my friend Gabry who is an Italian navy diver that have logged enough water time to have acquired the skills to be able to shazam thru the courses. Then there are divers like me who lied to my instructors concerning my # of dives in open water to get into a cavern/intro class. My lie was evident the first time we suited up for our first training dive during which I managed to fock up everything : bad buoyancy control, losing my buddy, silting the cavern up to the point of zero vis for all, line entanglement and staying down till I had 200 PSI in my single tank(cavern class). At that point I had to swallow the very critical review from my female instructor who was visibly disgusted and irritated that I would endanger myself and others for my selfish reasons. When we returned to Cathys place that evening after apologizing to all, I was ready to go home , head down , pissed at myself.
If it wasnt for a caring lady named Sharon( who was an instructor that was there to buddy up with a friend of hers taking the class )I would have left.
After some discussion I was giving the opportunity to continue with the condition that I might not get certified this time around but could join any class in the future to earn it at no extra instructor fees. In my opinion its better to seperate the training. Remember that with intro cave you are cavediving so whats the rush, slow down and enjoy. The main Safety Protocols(you and your buddies lives) material is redundant thru the courses so practice what is preached. Plus how embarrassing ,to say the least, to join others as a Full Cave Diver and then have no one want to dive with you after because you are lacking the skills. Do your research and find a full time cave instructor that has years of teaching and references to prove it. Cutting corners could cost you your life or worse someone elses. Its not a cheap sport to get into so dont try to save when it comes to instructor fees. Your equipment costs will dwarf this but even the most expensive equipment will not save you without an excellent education in cave diving. By the way during my apprentice/full cave class 7 months later I was held at apprentice for 2 months until I was able to earn full cave. I thank my instructors for being real cavers that were concerned with my life as well as preserving caves from abuse from unqualified divers. Have FUN and take care bro. :-D

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

It is also my opinion that during a cave diver's first hundred cave dives, he/she should not allow more than a couple of months to elapse without diving. I'm not a local, but it is only 250 miles to cave country. In your case, diving in quarries with doubles, practicing with reels, should keep you sharp.

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Quarry diving is ok for general skills maintenance, like diving in doubles. But it's not so good for finning, reels, stages, etc. Moving through a cave is a whole other thing. Not sure what it is, maybe the current, the closed environment, the fear of silting, the ups and downs....but no amount of quarry diving will prepare you or maintain your caving skills. Running line is also not the same. I guess the general handling of the reel (not dropping it, reeling in without jamming, and such, is good practice, even in the backyard, but don't think just cause you're good in the quarry you will be good in the cave. tie-offs, current, other's lines, all conspire to make you look like a dolt. Dropping into Devil's running a line can not be practiced in a quarry!

Those who don't live in a cave diving area need to plan on frequent trips to cave country (not necessarily florida) and dive caves at least every two months, better if monthly.

We always plan a first day of diving that is easy mainline stuff to refresh basic skills. We often have a month or six weeks with no cave diving (but plenty of quarry diving), and that first day (2 dives) is an important refresher of skills (and equipment check).

-skip

About quarry diving.... When I lived in Virgnia, the only cavediving I got to do was in sumps in W VA. I stayed in pretty good practice in between diving in a quarry.

I would lay line just over the bottom, about a foot above the silt. I stayed in the shallow part, abut 10' deep. Bouyancy control is hardest in shallow water. If you can stay that close to the silt, and not stir it up, you won't have much trouble in a cave.

Skip is right about laying line in current, though. Sheck Exley used to make his students practice laying line in the Ichnetucknee River. Easier on the cave, and they learned a lot faster :-)

I'm another diver who lives a long way from cave country (Vermont) and a new (October '06) full cave diver.

Tracy & I were dry cavers (mud cavers, more accurately; not much dry about it) for years before becoming divers. We did Cavern first and had about 30 cavern dives before taking Intro. After taking Intro we did about 30 Intro dives, some here in VT but mostly in north FL. About 2 and a half years after Cavern and a year and a half after Intro we did Apprentice and Full a week apart during a two week trip to Florida. During the week between Apprentice & Full we were cave diving 2 - 3 dives a day. This worked well for us - the training was very organized, thorough, and demanding. We were able to complete it without too much trouble. PM me if you'd like the name of our excellent instructor.

We make an effort to keep our skills up between caving trips - doing most of our diving in doubles & cave configuration. We dive in a quarry that has a huge area of overhead - we've only seen a little of it so far.
We also dive in lakes and ponds that have very soft silty bottoms which make for good practice. We practice running lines while river diving as well as in open water and the quarry. While practicing before the Apprentice course we ran a line about 400 feet long, two feet over a very oozy bottom in about 15 feet of water. We pretended that this was a cave main line and did air shares, no mask swims, blacked out mask swims, etc. along it, and jumps off it complete with arrows, cookies, etc. This kind of preparation has helped us a lot.

We also like to watch the cave diving DVD's from Cavex2 - you can't learn to cave dive by watching TV, but you get to see a lot of good technique to emulate. They make time on the exercise machinery much more interesting, too.

Hope this is useful -
Mike

Headed to Cave Country two weeks from tomorrow! YeeHaw! :D

I'm going to disagree on this.

I think it's possible to do things way quicker with the right attitude and dedication than a lot of what's been posted above.

I've been cave diving for a little over a year. I did my cavern/intro in one go, only 3 cave dives in between, and then app/full on the second trip.

I then did 5 more trips, during which I also did sidemount, stage and DPV classes.

14 months or so later, I've been able to do some really fun dives. End of the gold line and Mainland/Sweet Surprise circuit at Ginnie (both several times), the well casing at Little River, the sidemount passage at Cow, and some great stuff with Cindy. More than half my post-full dives have been solo. In TOTAL, INCLUDING training dives, I had about 40 cave dives when I did the Henkle as a stage dive. I had 50 when I did the back of Mainland - a 4200 ft swim each way - without a DPV. I've now done Mainland 5 times, and gone past the Henkle 6 at around 70 post-training dives and less than 100 including training. None of it outside training standards.

Part of the reason is a) I timed all the trips very close to each other, b) I do a lot of tech ocean dives where I try to use cave skills and c) I read everything I can on the topic. It also helps to be in adequate physical shape.

So... maybe an argument could be made for going a little slower than that. But 30 dives between classes? 2 or 3 years to get to full? I'd have gone nuts personally! I'm not saying it's WRONG to do that - just that it's not necessary.

Hey Johnny 5,

My buddy and I have been intro since December 2005 and will take Apprentice/Full in March 2007. Here is my .02 worth.

How important is it to have a "local" instructor for cave training?
- I live in OH... If my cave instructor is in Florida, will this be a big problem?
Since your training is in Florida, I would suggest an instructor who is very familiar with the sites where you will be performing your training dives. I believe they have certain spots in various caves to perform your various drills.

How long should I expect to spend at each level?
- From some websites and local instructors it looks like I could combine Cavern and Intro in one week and then Apprentice / Full Cave the next and be Full Cave certified... Can this be true?

(Not that I want to rush thru that quickly.... but I've also been told to expect about 2-3 years along with years salary to get to Full Cave.
I just want to know what a reasonable expectation is)

We combined Cavern/Intro a year ago. (Our experience was about 300 dives - mostly in the Keys, the panhandle, and the various Florida springs and caverns) We have made about two cave dives a month since Intro. Also, since then, we worked up to doubles(1/6th rule) and then worked into Drysuits. The doubles were a non-event. It took us several dives to adjust to the drysuits, and we did those dives initially in open water, then in a shallow cavern and then a deeper cavern.

For us, we are glad that we waited a year to get some practice before moving to Apprentice/Full. The biggest thing has been watching our buoyancy with new and different equipment, using different fin kicks, avoiding silt, running the reel, and practicing other skills.

Have fun!

First I want to say "Thanks!" to all that have posted here and PM'd me excellent information! :D

I am or have been involved in many different activities, and I must say that this has been the best response to a "newbie" that I have received in a long time.

As a followup/continuation of my qustion about training.....

I have my TDI Nitrox cert, but when should I add Advanced Nitrox and Deco?

before starting Cavern... during... after.... long after ?

There's a lot of cave that you're not seeing if you're racking up the "mile markers" between daylight and the EOL in 14 months. I spent 5 years in cave country and dove my ass off and still have yet to see an EOL, or even a majority of most of the systems out there. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing it, Andrew, but not everyone can or wants to pursue cave diving in that fashion.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I wouldn't use an instructor that teaches cave diving full time ... The reason I say this is that guys move to cave country to teach cave diving full time, for the love of cave diving, but before long it's all about the money.

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You're raising a valid concern, but I don't agree completely with the advice you give to address it. I'll offer a slightly different opinion that overlaps somewhat with what I think you're getting at...

I wouldn't encourage the use of an instructor that doesn't do a fairly significant amount of diving (specifically cave diving in this case) that's completely outside of training. My suggestion is intended to address two points:

1. It helps the instructor maintain the personal love of diving that it sounds like we both agree should be a primary motivator, and helps exhibit that he has done so.

2. It allows the instructor to develop, maintain, and exhibit skills and methods beyond those required to simply pass the class. This reinforces the idea that the training is establishing a foundation on which more significant dives can later be built.

I don't live in cave country but I'm lucky enough to travel there pretty often, and I agree with what Skip said. No matter how much open water diving I've been doing, I feel a little awkward and out of practice on the first dive of any trip. My back is sore, my feet hurt from twirling my ankles around, things require little adjustments. I always try to plan something simple for that first dive.

I've heard both arguments on how quickly training should progress. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing the classes consecutively, but whatever level you stop at, you're going to have to backtrack a bit to refresh your memory (and muscle memory) when you get back down there. The fact that you've got a card doesn't mean that you're going to have your act together when you swim in.

Personally I dont agree with a large number of dives in between training stages.Im sure it wouldnt hurt,but some can get the hang of it faster than others.Living in Ohio,and doing 30 dives between certs may take you 10 years to get to full cave.As a diver,youll know when your messing up and if corrections are made swiftly,youll know when your doing good.If bouancy is very good,Id take cavern/intro together.I would not combine apprentice and full.Many do because apprentice only lasts a year.Not a good reason in my opinion.Again,when your messing up youll know it,and when you got it you got it.All opinions are debatable as usual.

I took deco procedures along with Apprentice Cave and that worked out quite well for me. If you obtain a copy of the NACD "Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook", it will give you a good idea of what is required at each level. For example, you will begin doing limited deco at the Apprentice level and more extensive deco at full cave level.

I've noticed there has not been a response from any "one Week Wonders" so I guess it's time to jump in. True I would NOT recommend this to anyone that does not live within a couple of hours of cave country.
When I did my class was very hard to fit all the skills in and I'm sure there were short cuts. BUT since I was diving every weekend for the next year in the same buddy team we were able to work on skills and get mentoring from several experienced divers, (Russ Conley, Gene Broome, Mike Bruic) to name a few. If you are not willing to travel to the caves at least monthly for the first year I think you should do Cavern/intro and STICK to intro dives in well traveled sites on Weekends when there are folks you can hook up with to mentor you. If you have the commitment then train continuosly until your instructor feels you have completed the course. Don't fixate on the course being X dives and then over.
I know one instructor that teaches this way. You pay him for a Cave Course and you will dive and dive and dive until you are done. It could be 20 dives it could be 28 dives.

So theres My 2 PSI

I have dived with several "one week wonders", and curtshu is the only one that looked like he had actually taken a course. If there is *ANY* way you can avoid doing it all in one week, then DON"T.

I suspect the cavern/intro then app/cave would be OK, especially if you have had a good deal of other diving experience. Someone just out of OW class won't do well in an accelerated course.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

I then did 5 more trips, during which I also did sidemount, stage and DPV classes.

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I thought the experience requirement for DPV class was 100 cave dives ?

Thanks Forrest, That is because I did my training and then MENTORed with other good divers. I really can not stress enough how bad it is to see folks come to Florida for a week get Full cave then not come again for a year. If you are going to be a vacation caver save your money. Do Cavern/Intro then do intro dives the rest of your vacation. Then come back and dive some more Intro level. There is a whole lot of cave to see in the first 1000 ft.

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Originally Posted by OneBrightGator

There's a lot of cave that you're not seeing if you're racking up the "mile markers" between daylight and the EOL in 14 months. I spent 5 years in cave country and dove my ass off and still have yet to see an EOL, or even a majority of most of the systems out there. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing it, Andrew, but not everyone can or wants to pursue cave diving in that fashion.

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I agree. I try never to take the same route. But it took me a while to learn exactly what you're saying and my next trip is going to entirely focus on one of the most negleced areas of the cave, the top left corner around Double Lines, Syphon tunnel, etc.. That's a really cool, close area that not a lot of people visit. It's particularly cool to do it really slowly. Also anywhere that Jeff put a double x on his map is worth visiting (appropriately dressed) - I've really enjoyed those.

Still, it's really tempting to do the big stuff first!! And if you plan properly, you can do a lot of the side passages on the way in or out of EOL type dives.

BobK - the requirement is 50, not 100.

Andrew, how much time have you spent in the catacombs? It's the most interesting part of the Devil System, but many people never go through them. Too elementary.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Andrew, how much time have you spent in the catacombs? It's the most interesting part of the Devil System, but many people never go through them. Too elementary.

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Only twice, and then only on my last trip. I definitely haven't spent enough time in them. I'll be doing more back there. It's a good way to start deco!

My intro instructor told me (after I completed intro) that anytime i wanted to join in with another class I could at no charge. I took him up on it after I got full cave cert because a buddy was taking the class and I wanted to just tag along. I was thinking I'd hang back and try not to get in the way, but nooooooo. He treated my just like a student, we became a team of three, and I think it was more difficult this second time around than the first! He worked my butt off! I was afraid he was going to revoke my certification!

Actually, I'm really glad he gave me the opportunity to refresh and enhance my intro skills and that he treated me just like an intro student (well, I think he may have been a bit more, how shall I put it?, a bit more "playful.").

I don't know how important it is, but the fact that I was allowed to return for free to join an ongoing class was a real plus for me. my admiration and gratitude for this instructor, already good at teaching, increased a lot.
Look for an instructor that does the same thing - allows you to return and join in another class later if you want. This is especially useful if you don't get to cave dive often between trips to florida (and can't make florida trips every month or two).

-skip