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i took my friend into orange and peacock this weekend, he just finished intro. After our dives he said he couldnt believe all the marks in the bottom and damage to the walls/ceiling. this was his first time in these places. it occured to me that we all train in caves and as newbies we ARE going to leave marks. which brings me to the point of this post: how do we train for cave diving and not leave marks in caves? ( all of you who were born perfect cave divers from the get go need not reply)
Well, what you do is ... oh yeah, you didn't want to hear from us. :-D
My advice is dive in doubles in open water until it's second-nature. The biggest problem I see is divers in doubles that aren't comfortable yet.
to be more specific, imeant during cave training classes ,there are going to be ,and continue to be marks left during training excersises. this is not going to be avoided. however: there is a tremendous consensus for cave preservation. i agree totally. but it seems cave training in caves causes a fair amount, if not most marks in the bottom. seem antithetical to the cause of cave conservation. i dont know if there is an equitable solution.
I suggest putting everyone in doubles, 2 stages, and a scooter. This way you'll be geared up for distance. By ensuring that the dive plan is continuous motion, it will be less likely that any diver will be stopped in one place for very long, thereby reducing the chance of silting, getting off balance, and marking up the cave. :lol:
In my experience it seems to be that most of the cave training is in the heavily used, not so silty caves that seem to be less prone to damage. Granted, anybody can damage any cave, but it seems most training is in the hardier caves such as peacock, ginnie, and jackson. These caves have been banged up for a long time, so I think the main problem is conserving systems that are more fragile and thus more prone to damage. I think the biggest problem with cave training is not being used to the gear and having your buoyancy imperfect. I personally had decent experience using doubles before training, and then during my class we spent at least 6 hours in the pool getting used to our gear config and perfecting buoyancy. I believe this helps tremendously before getting into a cave. But then again, during training you are required to turn out the lights and find the line and exit the cave, its expected youre going to run into things and damage the cave a little. Thats why most of that is done in the Peanut tunnel at peacock. A small hardy passage that can take alot of damage. Kinda reminds me of a dwarf.
... because people are diving in doubles that aren't comfortable in doubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ltb7733
I was under the impression that instructors did not use OG for intro training.
We were in there last week & I see what you mean but, it looks like scooter tracks to me.
The last I heard, scooters weren't allowed in the Peacock system. They're more likely drag marks from stage bottles.
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One of my family members was allowed to wear his double 108's in Peacock I to take the Cavern course because he had expressed a desire to his instructor to continue on to Full Cave(which he never did). He wasn't used to all the extra weight and negative bouyancy and kept crashing to the floor of the cavern. He got so stressed out that he aborted the training dive. He completed the course a few weeks later with another instructor and wearing a single 108.
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A couple of points if I may. Mr Slugde is for the most part right. However, a more comprehensive statement would be, individuals lacking proper bouyancy skills for whatever configuration they are diving would be more appropriate. This could be singles or doubles, and don't forget all those people diving sidemount (because it looks cool or is convenient, not for what sidemounting was originally intended for) as well.
There is no replacement for for skill. Too many divers are going well beyond their capabilities and skill level. Not to mention certification level. lack of mentoring, not enough previous diving experience and other reasons. Intro to cave is actually far too little to turn someone loose with in most cases and worse if they lack overall experience. The "technology" available today is also why you see more and more damge further into systems, because people are taking "doubles, two stages, and scooters...." into caves with insufficient experience.
You are diving in an environment that from silt banks to the cave itself, has taken hundreds of years to millions of years to form and can be wiped out in an instant. Most marks of even inconsequential proportion will be there for many years.
Another point is, that there could be scooter marks as they are now banned, not that they were never allowed in the Peacock system.
As an aside, I did look at a link from this thread. I find it very disturbimg and alarming that anyone would ever state they are promoting cavern and cave diving to the general public. That is extremely contrary to the major cave training agencies philosophies.
Many divers would be willing to practice a bit more at the Intro level if there wern't so much pressure to get Full Cave certification as quickly as possible. Gilchrist County bans all but Full Cave divers from Hart Springs - even with a Hart Springs certified guide. NSS-CDS chooses Hart Springs for its annual outing, effectively excluding Intro and even Apprentice cave divers. Ginnie Springs charges Intro level cave divers half again as much as Full Cave Divers. Only members who are Full Cave certified have a vote in NACD. And most Full Cave Divers don't want to dive with Intro cave divers. The message is overwhelmingly: get Full Cave certification at once or quit!
Captain speleo I stand corrected but, what I saw was small boulders on the floor moved one to two feet with a cut in the floor at least one inch deep.
It very well might of been stage bottles but had to have been a hell of a hit.
I don't know what it was but, it was very noticeable.
I dive wih anyone that is solid,.. of thier comfort and skill level- there are so many caves out there- that yes a few must be used to show students how its done. Even with Full Cave its only the starting point. The real exp starts building after the cert.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
#### happens, hell i have made mistakes. Climed out of "holes" to urinate, bounced myself of the clay-floor, left peter trails on the ceiling. The more you dive the better you get. Thats the way it is. If they were (students) not able to train, with the multi-tasking and "true" enviroment with the few caves that are "able" to be taught in. Would you/or anyone else dive with a Cave cert from a pool/lake/river?
Looking at the students- the focus is wrong- yes they make errors welcome to cave diving- learn and move on. The Full Cave who only dives in a "cave" once out of the year is the same student that was taught 4yrs ago that is still learning and unable to gain the exp any other way. Popular caves are just that, low flow, good vis, and large enough to allow errors with as little damage to the enviroment as possible.
Take in to account the number of divers/cave trained that visit the popular holes- Even though i have bitched and yelled at some of the stupid #### i have seen being done. The damage even though its not replace-able or repair able there is measures that were done. One being the line, lights out, line following,drills and such are used in a manner to help the cave as well as the student or the not so frequent caver who needs a refreasher.
Im done and stepping off the box- great game by the way and HELL of a party. I do think that we have talked about this issue before. But in a sense it kinda makes you feel a bit of pride because more and more are paying attention to the cave. Thats a plus, in my book. :-)
I got Intro Cave certified in 1987 and built up a lot of experience before getting Full Cave certified in 1989. Too many divers are going from Openwater to Full Cave within a matter of months, then they consider themselves to be on the same level as the cave divers who have been diving caves for years.
Some of the cave systems are and should be restricted to Full Cave divers only, and then only to those Full Cave divers who have shown proof of experience and proficiency. There's no way in hell that I'd want to be a "newbie" Full Cave diver and then try to dive Hart Spring - Black Lagoon, Cow Spring, Alachua Sink, Thunder Hole, and some of the others.
The purpose of using Hart springs is not only is it a spectular park,but supporting the park helps to keep access,so you'll have a chance to see it in the future. Diving there is the least of the activites,and I'd hope as an intro diver you'd feel encouraged to come since there are a lot things going on,and some top cave divers,that could help your diving. The good news is Manatee is approx 15 miles away.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
I saw all the marks on the floor in Orange Grove last weekend and was appalled.It was definetly a stage bottle slung too low.And the guy was either solo or last in the team.As we neared challenge it got much more pristine.There was also multiple hand prints along the way.Personally,I had no trouble at all switching to double tanks.Lack of buoyancy at rises and drops is the reason most marks are there,with the exception of the stage grooves,thats where the majority of the marks are.I dont think any instructor would take students who's buoyancy isnt proven at rises and drops in the floor,into a soft,mudzone to botch up.The peanut tunnel,I feel is the best place for that all important up and down practice.
My diving buddy and I like to go off the beaten path at times when we dive Orange Grove. Our last dive into the far reaches of the Distance Tunnel was nice because the passage and silty floor were 99.99% pristine. We tend to do most of our dives in sidemounts instead of backmounts because besides the additional safety factor that it gives us, it allows us more room for error so we don't come in contact with the ceiling or floor.
As was mentioned in the recovery class I had taken, not all marks left in caves are from inexperienced divers, etc. Sometimes it's the unfortunate result of recovery operations.
If you don't believe what aw said, look at the floor near the well casing in Little River and the downstream passage just beyond the 270' restriction in Eagles Nest.
You can also check out JB from 300' in to about 700' in, and the first few jumps off of that area. Scrapes, kneeling marks, clawing, etc. JB isn't one of the typical training caves and where the marks are shouldn't be where intro level divers are at.
OG is pretty bad. There are marks well into the caves which are, I would think, past where intro level people would have turned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ltb7733
The worse I have seen at Peacock is on the peanut line at the 1st or was it the 2nd jump to water hole. You could see deep hand prints from people that lost their buoyancy getting their jump reel out. Just couldn't believe it. It's a pretty big passage up there and it doesn't go up or down.
These aren't from students. They are from "certified" divers.
Fin marks and hand prints on the floor remind you that your favorite cave has been visited by impatient or careless divers lacking basic control. You took it seriously enough to attain a certain level of perfection and respect, and yet, this fool just jumps in. But these scars are asthetic marks only. Many will vanish after a few decades.
But I'm wondering how many of these hand prints and rock scars our kids will notice swimmin around in green tea viz, considering the excess nitrates dumped on lawns and farms many miles away, parking lot runoff, etc etc...
Good point. To borrow from the famous quote by Chiang Kai-shek, handprints are a disease of the skin, pollution is a disease of the heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lizdas