Hog loop on a CCR

I've seen ccr people who have their long hose around the neck like you would on oc and and GUE JJ dude told me it's so you have the same config and procedure as on oc.

I don't understand that logic though. On the breather you can't donate what you're breathing and you would have to come off the loop. Close the loop, push it over your head, unclip the reg and donate, than get back on the loop... that's not the same procedure as on oc. Having to get off the loop in an already stressful situation sounds like a bad idea. Lots of room for mistakes it seems.
Is anyone here who does that? Just attaching the reg to the d-ring on a break away connector without the hog loop sounds way easier.

Yes that is the GUE standard procedure taught during CCR training. You can't really handle the long hose otherwise if you have backmounted Dil/Bailouts. Sidemount bailouts could allow your option.

I go around the neck. If I?m diving with someone new I always expressly go though with them that if I need to give you the long hose it will tkake 3 steps. Close dsv, loop over head, pull long hose. It actually doesnt take very long though. We drilled the hell out of it and its second nature. Its shockingly faster than you?d think. One pro to owning a unit thats hard as hell to flood is if I for some reason dont fully close the dsv due to stress my unit can handle a small flood.
The alternative of keeping the regs stowed to the bottle as when sm?ing bailout imo isnt ideal. Theres too much chance for the reg to move out of position leaving you flailing to find it. I find around the neck is way better. I could see having the hose just come up to a dring on a breakaway. I did change compared to wht I was taught a little. I did choose to keep my long hose snap bolt on a thin very easily breakable zip tie just like Edd teaches in sm. That way at least if the poop flies I can break away the long hose rather than adding the 4th step of unclipping a snap bolt to the equation.


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There is also argument to be made that if diving with an OC team member, in that case it might make sense to keep it over the loop. That opens the whole "is diving mixed teams a good idea".

Also, if diving with another CCR diver, getting to the point of donating a reg involves cascading failures. After the first failure you should already be switching to having the long hose over the loop. In case you do have to donate...before your buddy even comes close to asking for it

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Originally Posted by lord1234

There is also argument to be made that if diving with an OC team member, in that case it might make sense to keep it over the loop. That opens the whole "is diving mixed teams a good idea".

Also, if diving with another CCR diver, getting to the point of donating a reg involves cascading failures. After the first failure you should already be switching to having the long hose over the loop. In case you do have to donate...before your buddy even comes close to asking for it

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Agree. All of that was very indepth discussions in my original ccr course. It was not a gue course, though it was taught by a gue instructor and we were all very gue-centric in our diving.
I definitely am not a huge fan of mixed teams for that reason. One other addition is that Ken Sallot says that the one time (I think one time) he had to actually donate his long hose was to a random solo diver around the hill 400. So being prepared at all times and practicing long hose donation while on the loop is important.
* ken can clean up any incorrect info


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Originally Posted by lord1234

Yes that is the GUE standard procedure taught during CCR training. You can't really handle the long hose otherwise if you have backmounted Dil/Bailouts. Sidemount bailouts could allow your option.

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Ok, I see. It's because there is no other option when using BM BO rather than wanting to use the same procedures. That makes more sense to me than what I was told before. thx

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Originally Posted by lord1234

The alternative of keeping the regs stowed to the bottle as when sm?ing bailout imo isnt ideal. Theres too much chance for the reg to move out of position leaving you flailing to find it. I find around the neck is way better. I could see having the hose just come up to a dring on a breakaway. I did change compared to wht I was taught a little. I did choose to keep my long hose snap bolt on a thin very easily breakable zip tie just like Edd teaches in sm. That way at least if the poop flies I can break away the long hose rather than adding the 4th step of unclipping a snap bolt to the equation.

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But if you sidemount your BO you could just clip into the D-ring with cave line and the reg wont go anywhere. It'd be one step instead of 3 or 4. Going of the loop still seems pretty involved in an emergency sitution. Not that I would know from experience.
Did you sm or bm your BO in MOD1 and in cave class? Did you get to pick or is there a Fathom class standard configuration?

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Agree. All of that was very indepth discussions in my original ccr course. It was not a gue course, though it was taught by a gue instructor and we were all very gue-centric in our diving.
I definitely am not a huge fan of mixed teams for that reason. One other addition is that Ken Sallot says that the one time (I think one time) he had to actually donate his long hose was to a random solo diver around the hill 400. So being prepared at all times and practicing long hose donation while on the loop is important.
* ken can clean up any incorrect info


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It was Little River, but it's why I will always have a 7' hose while diving in the overhead.

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Originally Posted by bent

Ok, I see. It's because there is no other option when using BM BO rather than wanting to use the same procedures. That makes more sense to me than what I was told before. thx


But if you sidemount your BO you could just clip into the D-ring with cave line and the reg wont go anywhere. It'd be one step instead of 3 or 4. Going of the loop still seems pretty involved in an emergency sitution. Not that I would know from experience.
Did you sm or bm your BO in MOD1 and in cave class? Did you get to pick or is there a Fathom class standard configuration?

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I didn't take Mod1. I went from Tech1 to GUE CCR1. I dive a JJ not a Fathom. Rddvet dives a Fathom afaik.

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Originally Posted by bent

Ok, I see. It's because there is no other option when using BM BO rather than wanting to use the same procedures. That makes more sense to me than what I was told before. thx


But if you sidemount your BO you could just clip into the D-ring with cave line and the reg wont go anywhere. It'd be one step instead of 3 or 4. Going of the loop still seems pretty involved in an emergency sitution. Not that I would know from experience.
Did you sm or bm your BO in MOD1 and in cave class? Did you get to pick or is there a Fathom class standard configuration?

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Fathom class is what you want it to be. My wife and I did it in sm bailout. She now only dives the fathom gue style. I plan to go back and forth. I bought a second can from charlie to make it easier asy to flip back and forth. Just cant dive for another couple months to use it.


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Originally Posted by bent

I've seen ccr people who have their long hose around the neck like you would on oc and and GUE JJ dude told me it's so you have the same config and procedure as on oc.

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For what it's worth I'm not anywhere close to GUE nor do I dive a "GUE-compatible" rebreather but I've always dove with a second stage HOG looped around my neck on CCR but it was mostly for me to use. That is how I was taught in my MOD1 and MOD2 classes. I have just found it routes cleaner than having a regulator on a d-ring. I do explain to new dive buddies that I "can" donate it using the procedure above but I have to go off the loop or I can always donate a regulator from my other bailout bottle which has a 5' hose.

Up until recently I did not have a BOV (another controversial subject in itself I guess). Having a fully charged and on second stage around my neck has always allowed me to bailout very quickly. It eliminates the step altogether of having to find and pull the 2nd stage off my bailout. I've tested it numerous times and had to use it in one very real scenario. It works.

I recently got a new rebreather with a BOV so now I've got back to having my second stage stowed on my bailouts. This is what I do but I'm sure it's "wrong" but it works for me. I'm open to better systems but I'm comfortable with this approach.

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Originally Posted by macado

For what it's worth I'm not anywhere close to GUE nor do I dive a "GUE-compatible" rebreather but I've always dove with a second stage HOG looped around my neck on CCR but it was mostly for me to use. That is how I was taught in my MOD1 and MOD2 classes. I have just found it routes cleaner than having a regulator on a d-ring. I do explain to new dive buddies that I "can" donate it using the procedure above but I have to go off the loop or I can always donate a regulator from my other bailout bottle which has a 5' hose.

Up until recently I did not have a BOV (another controversial subject in itself I guess). Having a fully charged and on second stage around my neck has always allowed me to bailout very quickly. It eliminates the step altogether of having to find and pull the 2nd stage off my bailout. I've tested it numerous times and had to use it in one very real scenario. It works.

I recently got a new rebreather with a BOV so now I've got back to having my second stage stowed on my bailouts. This is what I do but I'm sure it's "wrong" but it works for me. I'm open to better systems but I'm comfortable with this approach.

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I think at least for me the big issue with the donation reg being stowed on the bottle is findint it quickly. Its very easy with sm bailout to unknowingly do something that makes the reg move from where you expect it to be. I tried it a few dives and wasnt a fan. Its really just what you?re comfortable with. With the long hose around the neck its very similar to if you were im oc sm or bm.


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Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

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Originally Posted by Whitrzac

Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

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Just different philosophies and comfort levels. A long hose under the loop is far from a mess. Give it a try. It takes a different donation process ever so slightly, but its easy to master. Especially since most of it is second nature.
Personally I have seen way too many people with tucked hoses that have zero clue where they may be from dive to dive. Even the ?best? diver is going to at some point hit a tank or reg and it not be where they expect it to be when they need it. Before my training I was used to seeing the bailout reg still on the tank. After being taught the pros and cons of each and trying them, I find regs on the tanks a poor choice at least for me.
As for ?problem 1?, many of us go from ccr to bm to sm regularly. In sm and bm my reg is always around my neck or clipped to the dring (but still from behind the neck). So when crap goes down, my brain will want to revert to what it knows best. And thats a long hose around my neck. So yes, I?m ?used to it? for good reason and theres a reason thats comforting.
When it comes to ccr theres alot of ?anything goes?. And different things feel safe to different people. The people i dive with hold the same philosophies as me when it comes to bailout management, so it makes for ease when diving with each other. That doesnt mean I wouldnt dive with someone that stows their regs on the bottles. It just means I need to be extra diligent in our predive communication and knowing what to do if things go sideways.


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Originally Posted by Whitrzac

Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

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This used to be my exact thought, which I agrued aggressively for several years, and then I had my longhose come unstowed from a sidemounted bailout cylinder while scootering, which made a very big mess (I'm not the only one, I know of A LOT of these stories). I then tried routing the longhose with the loop to it clean, and found donating actually EASIER then trying to deploy it from stowed on the tank. That was before I started down the GUE path myself.

I then transitioned to diving CCR primarily with backmounted bailout after it being properly explained that the GUE configuration is not "because that's how we do it on OC" as many (including me at one point) assume. When someone told you that, it was probably in relation to keeping the full OC system consistent, not just longhose donation (although donation is a major factor for WHY the OC configuration is the way it is). Having your bailout configured the same as backmount OC allows for failure resolution on the OC side of the unit to follow the exact same structure as on open circuit, streamlining the process and increasing the odds of resolving the issue promptly as a team. It's about consistency across a broad spectrum of diving disciplines and environments, a "holistic" approach, if you will. If you look at it this way, diving a rebreather is, in fact, not much different from diving OC.

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Originally Posted by kieren

This used to be my exact thought, which I agrued aggressively for several years, and then I had my longhose come unstowed from a sidemounted bailout cylinder while scootering, which made a very big mess (I'm not the only one, I know of A LOT of these stories). I then tried routing the longhose with the loop to it clean, and found donating actually EASIER then trying to deploy it from stowed on the tank. That was before I started down the GUE path myself.

I then transitioned to diving CCR primarily with backmounted bailout after it being properly explained that the GUE configuration is not "because that's how we do it on OC" as many (including me at one point) assume. When someone told you that, it was probably in relation to keeping the full OC system consistent, not just longhose donation (although donation is a major factor for WHY the OC configuration is the way it is). Having your bailout configured the same as backmount OC allows for failure resolution on the OC side of the unit to follow the exact same structure as on open circuit, streamlining the process and increasing the odds of resolving the issue promptly as a team. It's about consistency across a broad spectrum of diving disciplines and environments, a "holistic" approach, if you will. If you look at it this way, diving a rebreather is, in fact, not much different from diving OC.

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Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

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Originally Posted by bent

Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

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Because its neither difficult to do or slow to share gas like that. I thought it sounded awful when I was foist told thats how we were going to do it, but its truly a nonissue. Add to that the fact that the idea is based on all members of the team being on ccr. In order to have an issue that leads to the need for immediate air sharing is both rare and there should have been some idea it was about to happen since it takes a cascade of failures to get to that point. I?m no gue instructor so dont take my word for it, but basically I was told that its the ?best its going to get? in terms of simplicity and speed of sharing gas.
I really tried a few times to keep my regs stowed to my bottles to compare, and honestly that method sucks. I can see meeting in the middle with the reg clipped off but not around the neck, but i?m very comfortable with how I was taught.


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I forgot to mention that if I dive in a mixed team I carry a stage anyway thats for my oc buddy. I would still donate the long hose, but the stage is there in case we need to exit sharing air. I?d prefer to not be tied to them if I can avoid it. But I also do the same in oc if im diving with aomeone I dont dive with regularly


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Originally Posted by bent

Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

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GUE RB80 guy here, not GUE CCR, but the donation procedure is the same.

So the bailout is on your back, and that's probably one of the main configuration drivers that precludes the stowing of the longhose in the manner you describe. Where are you going to put the hose if not down, around the can, up across the chest, and around the neck? Stuffing the longhose along the right backgas tank has all the same problems with a rebreather that it does with open circuit.

You are correct in that it's a departure from donate what you're breathing. Well, it has to be, since you can't really donate a loop. So no matter what, you're donating from something clipped off or stowed somewhere.

With rebreathers, there's many steps between "something is going sideways" and "I am completely out of gas and need a long hose". More steps than with OC. They're generally highly visible, and because of that, you can get the long hose ready. Exceptions noted, of course, for people outside your team experiencing an emergency.

There are "steps", but its actually quite fast. Unclipping the long hose is something that's truly second nature as its done at every stage switch and every deco gas switch. Over the course of hundreds of dives (required before moving to RB80, I can't speak to the CCR program), that's a seriously ingrained skill. Along the same line of thought, the transition to OC gives you that familiar and strong lung control over buoyancy which can provide benefit in silty areas.

I think its important to note that at least on the RB80 (JJ guys can speak for that unit), its REALLY flood resistant. Taking the loop out of your mouth even with the BOV open isn't really a big deal. I think for less flood resistant units the priorities might shift a bit.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

There are "steps", but its actually quite fast. Unclipping the long hose is something that's truly second nature as its done at every stage switch and every deco gas switch. Over the course of hundreds of dives (required before moving to RB80, I can't speak to the CCR program), that's a seriously ingrained skill. Along the same line of thought, the transition to OC gives you that familiar and strong lung control over buoyancy which can provide benefit in silty areas.

I think its important to note that at least on the RB80 (JJ guys can speak for that unit), its REALLY flood resistant. Taking the loop out of your mouth even with the BOV open isn't really a big deal. I think for less flood resistant units the priorities might shift a bit.

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Snipped a piece of stuff there. Good info on the RB80 and glad to hear its the same process as the JJ.

That being said to get to CCR1, one would arguably have to take fundies, then tech 1, then do 25 dives...then do CCR1. There is a catch in the standards that you need 50 OC doubles dives, but nothing about if those are pre/post fundies/tech1. Having read that, holy crap....one could get on a JJ CCR via GUE in 25 dives after fundies? Now let's be real, there is NO WAY IN HELL, one is passing a CCR1 class after *25* dives post fundies. I'll eat my hat if its actually possible.

The JJ is extremely flood tolerant, in fact during CCR1 class, you are forced to flood(or partially flood) the loop and then clear it. It's a pretty easy and quite successful procedure :) The JJ is extremely flood tolerant from "loop coming out of mouth" level floods.

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Originally Posted by lord1234

there is NO WAY IN HELL, one is passing a CCR1 class after *25* dives post fundies. I'll eat my hat if its actually possible.

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This feels a bit like a challenge. Might be just the motivation I need.


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Originally Posted by Draker

This feels a bit like a challenge. Might be just the motivation I need.


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Existing cave instructors and CCR divers excluded LOL.

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Originally Posted by lord1234

Existing cave instructors and CCR divers excluded LOL.

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Good. I dont have Fundies, I'm not a cave instructor and not a CCR diver either but do have a GUE-JJ now. What do you wanna bet other than eating your hat?

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Originally Posted by bent

Good. I dont have Fundies, I'm not a cave instructor and not a CCR diver either but do have a GUE-JJ now. What do you wanna bet other than eating your hat?

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you gotta run through fundies, tech1 and GUE CCR1. See you in at least 75 dives? How about a nice bottle of bourbon? You pay shipping tho

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Originally Posted by lord1234

you gotta run through fundies, tech1 and GUE CCR1. See you in at least 75 dives? How about a nice bottle of bourbon? You pay shipping tho

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That's a 8 grand bottle of bourbon I assume.

Why 75 dives? I thought it's just 25 dives after Tec 1. You should be able to do Fundi and Tec 1 back to back. Prereq for Tec 1 is only 100 dives.

You could do Fundies and Tec 1 in 2 weeks and crank out 25 dive in a 2 week trip easy. That'd be from Fundies to CCR1 in 5 weeks. You just need money and time and be a somewhat competent diver it seems.
I have never looked into this before, but GUE standards doesn't seem that high after all. Sounds pretty average compared to the other agencies. Just triple the price or so. Jeez, eff me gentle 2.5 grand for Tec1 plus expenses. I didn't see any prices for CCR1 but it's probably north of 3 grand I reckon.

Looks like a busy GUE instructor can turn over 20 grand plus a month... maybe I should look into becomming a GUE instructor... mmmh. Germans love to wear matching t-shirts a standardised rules. Should be a good market over here.

You also dont need to be gue trained to dive a jj with 50s on it. While I am happy to have taken fundies after years of cave diving and tech diving, I wouldnt go the gue route just to dive a jj with 50s. Though I do plan on taking tech one within the year. If tech 1 is something you wanted to do, then it makes sense. If you dont care, find an instructor who dives it with 50s. I know Jon Bernot dives his with 50s pretty exclusively

Edit: ps your comments that gue standards arent significanly higher than other agencies is inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

You also dont need to be gue trained to dive a jj with 50s on it. While I am happy to have taken fundies after years of cave diving and tech diving, I wouldnt go the gue route just to dive a jj with 50s. Though I do plan on taking tech one within the year. If tech 1 is something you wanted to do, then it makes sense. If you dont care, find an instructor who dives it with 50s.

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The JJ I got also came with the stock wing and tanks etc. but there were AL40s on it an no BOV. I think the standard in Europe is 7 liter steel tanks and a BOV but I think the BOV is optional.
I'm not taking any GUE classes. I thought about taking Fundies just to see why people like it so much but I don't have any expectation that it' close to being worth the money or time. After 25 years of diving... what am I gonna learn in fin kicking class? I read through what's taught in Fundies... it's super basic and seems very much aimed at beginners.
I think it be also unfair to the instructor when you take a class that you think wont be good ... I wouldn't want a student like that either.
I don't think I can find a instructor that dives BM BO. I'm having a hard time finding an instructor in the first place. Even though I live 3 hours from the JJ factory. At this point I'll take a class with any instructor so I can use the thing. Ironically I bought the JJ because I thought getting a fathom would have been too much of a PITA to get training and the unit itself as long as the US borders are closed.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Edit: ps your comments that gue standards arent significanly higher than other agencies is inaccurate.

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I meant the prerequisites for the classes. 100 dives for trimix is not a lot and than just 25 dives for CCR classe that also includes trimix is really not a lot. Looks like I could go from Fundies to ccr trimix in 25 non-training dives. I'm not sure you could do it any faster with any other agency.

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Originally Posted by bent

I meant the prerequisites for the classes. 100 dives for trimix is not a lot and than just 25 dives for CCR classe that also includes trimix is really not a lot. Looks like I could go from Fundies to ccr trimix in 25 non-training dives. I'm not sure you could do it any faster with any other agency.

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Actually, just about any other agency would allow you to go from open water diver with 50 dives total into a Trimix course (IANTD Advanced Rec Trimix or TDI Helitrox) with no intro to tech or such prep course required. Someone’s first time in doubles could be in a trimix course (and that is generally how it is normally approached). Then straight into a CCR Trimix course as the Mod 1 with zero experience dives inbetween. IANTD wouldn’t even require you to have any OC tech training, any diver with 50 total dives could go straight into CCR adv. Rec trimix.

Also, I think the big component you are missing is the level of skill someone who’s passed Tech 1 would have vs just about any other “streamlined” path (someone who only meets the min standards). Fundies tech pass is not easy. Tech 1 is very challenging. 25 Tech 1 dives after that is a fair bit of experience, certainly leaps and bounds over what any other agency’s minimum is.

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Originally Posted by kieren

Fundies tech pass is not easy. Tech 1 is very challenging.

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Can you point out what's challenging about it? I mean to someone who's been diving for a while. I get that it can be challenging to a beginner to deploy a spare mask without smashing into the bottom but to any somewhat competent diver this should really be no problem whatsoever.
Below I pasted what you are required to show in tec1 according to GUE. What part of this is supposed to be challenging? Can you point something out that people are having difficulties with?
I'm not being facetious, I realy dont get it.
I might read in in between the lines but it sound to me like old school GUE bravado as in 'were better than you'.
At least George back in the day would be very specific... x and y sucks because this and that. That, I get. You can either agree or not with the reasoning given.

I would love to some day have a GUE instructor show me what I suck at and how it's done better. I'd be happy to pay for a day and gladly do a full fundi class and tec1 if there is actually something of subtance to learn. But I not paying a grand and spend 4 days bored in fin kick class listeing to someone telling me why being in trim and situational awareness makes sense.
Germany is full of GUE divers, I see them all the time. I don't see what special other than the attitude and being douchy to people with split fins or neopren drysuits.

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Originally Posted by gue website

Required Dive Skills and Drills
Demonstrate proficiency in safe diving techniques, including pre-dive preparation, inwater activity, and post-dive assessment.
b. Demonstrate awareness of team member location and a concern for safety, responding
quickly to visual indications and dive partner needs.
c. Demonstrate a safe and responsible demeanor throughout all training.
d. Demonstrate proficiency in underwater communication.
e. Demonstrate basic proficiency in managing the GUE equipment configuration.
f. Demonstrate proficiency with proper ascents and descents, utilizing variable ascent
rates and safe gas switching procedures.
g. Must be able to swim at least 400 yds/375 m in less than 14 minutes without stopping.
This test should be conducted in a swimsuit and, where necessary, appropriate thermal
protection.
h. Must be able to swim a distance of at least 60 ft/18 m on a breath hold while submerged.
i. Demonstrate proficiency in gas failure procedures, including valve manipulation
(fixable, non-fixable, and erroneous failures), gas sharing, and regulator switching as
appropriate.
GUE General Training Standards, Policies, and Procedures
Excerpt from Version 9.2 view the full document at www.gue.com/standards
3
j. Demonstrate proficiency in surface marker buoy deployment (except if Tech 1 training
is conducted in a cave environment).
k. Demonstrate proficiency in switching to a backup mask.
l. Demonstrate proficiency in switching to a backup light.
m. Demonstrate familiarity with required course equipment.
n. Demonstrate proficiency in managing gas-sharing scenarios, including gas sharing on
the bottom, gas sharing during ascent, and sharing decompression gas.
o. Comfortably demonstrate at least three propulsion techniques that would be
appropriate in delicate and/or silty environments; one of these kicks must be the
backward kick.
p. Demonstrate reasonable proficiency with a single decompression cylinder.
q. Demonstrate proficiency with effective decompression techniques, including depth and
time management.
r. Demonstrate dive rescue techniques, including effective underwater management of an
unconscious diver.
s. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e., approximate reference is a maximum of 20
degrees off horizontal while remaining within 3 ft/1 m of a target depth.
t. Demonstrate the ability to manage a failed decompression cylinder using available team
resources.

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I?ve been diving over 25 years and tech diving about 12. I still got things from fundies. It?s just like changing up instructors for different classes. Each instructor has little nuances another instructor may have missed. With gue, those little nuances are taught by all of the instructors since it?s standardized. A couple of weeks before fundies I wondered if I was wasting time and money, but I?m glad I took it. There are instructors who have way more dives than you and I combined that took fundies and learned something.
It?s one of those you don?t know until you try it kind of things. But I am also a person who goes into every class hoping to learn something I?ve never learned before. Even with the worst instructors I can come away with something

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kieren

Actually, just about any other agency would allow you to go from open water diver with 50 dives total into a Trimix course (IANTD Advanced Rec Trimix or TDI Helitrox) with no intro to tech or such prep course required. Someone’s first time in doubles could be in a trimix course (and that is generally how it is normally approached). Then straight into a CCR Trimix course as the Mod 1 with zero experience dives inbetween. IANTD wouldn’t even require you to have any OC tech training, any diver with 50 total dives could go straight into CCR adv. Rec trimix.

Also, I think the big component you are missing is the level of skill someone who’s passed Tech 1 would have vs just about any other “streamlined” path (someone who only meets the min standards). Fundies tech pass is not easy. Tech 1 is very challenging. 25 Tech 1 dives after that is a fair bit of experience, certainly leaps and bounds over what any other agency’s minimum is.

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Helitrox is 150ft max. 21% min o2. Technically trimix, but same level as an OC an/dp course.



TDI CCR path is:
20 OW level dives to start

Course: Air diluiant, no deco, 100ft max


Then
Course: Air deco/helitrox. 150ft max depth
Min 6 months, 30hours of experiance

Then
Mixed gas CCR: 200ft max, 18% o2 min. AKA normax trimix

Min 50hrs of experience


Then
Adv mixed gas ccr AKA hypoxic trimix
min 100hrs of experience


So TDI's standards are higher than GUE? lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

Can you point out what's challenging about it? I mean to someone who's been diving for a while. I get that it can be challenging to a beginner to deploy a spare mask without smashing into the bottom but to any somewhat competent diver this should really be no problem whatsoever.
Below I pasted what you are required to show in tec1 according to GUE. What part of this is supposed to be challenging? Can you point something out that people are having difficulties with?
I'm not being facetious, I realy dont get it.
I might read in in between the lines but it sound to me like old school GUE bravado as in 'were better than you'.
At least George back in the day would be very specific... x and y sucks because this and that. That, I get. You can either agree or not with the reasoning given.

I would love to some day have a GUE instructor show me what I suck at and how it's done better. I'd be happy to pay for a day and gladly do a full fundi class and tec1 if there is actually something of subtance to learn. But I not paying a grand and spend 4 days bored in fin kick class listening to someone telling me why being in trim and situational awareness makes sense.
Germany is full of GUE divers, I see them all the time. I don't see what special other than the attitude and being douchy to people with split fins or neopren drysuits.

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On paper, many things seem easy. The list of skills in the standards are common for almost all techincal courses, sure. But the precision and consistency that they are expected to be performed are significantly greater than what other agencies expect. Most allow everything to be done kneeling on the bottom, so if you are comparing a GUE course to that minimum standard, I'd say it's a bit tougher.

For an experienced diver, you'd be surprised how challenging it can be. The vast majority of my Fundies students do not earn a tech pass on the first go. Many are coming in as experienced tech, cave, and CCR divers and a handful of instructors at those levels as well. But you've seen the standards, which seem easy, so everyone must breeze right through it I guess.

I can tell there's not much point in continuing the discussion with you on it, though. You seem to have made up your mind about it long ago, and that's perfectly fine. It's certainly not for everyone, but I would place an honest wager that if you went through the course with an instructor you gelled with, you'd enjoy it and your diving would certainly improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whitrzac

Helitrox is 150ft max. 21% min o2. Technically trimix, but same level as an OC an/dp course.



TDI CCR path is:
20 OW level dives to start

Course: Air diluiant, no deco, 100ft max


Then
Course: Air deco/helitrox. 150ft max depth
Min 6 months, 30hours of experiance

Then
Mixed gas CCR: 200ft max, 18% o2 min. AKA normax trimix

Min 50hrs of experience


Then
Adv mixed gas ccr AKA hypoxic trimix
min 100hrs of experience


So TDI's standards are higher than GUE? lol

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Thanks, I'm pretty familiar with TDI's CCR standards ;)

GUE doesn't have an air dil no deco cert, so to compare fairly you'd need to look at the path starting with a qualified technical diver going straight into "mod 1". For TDI, the diver only needs 50 open water dives to start the AN/Helitrox course (as close to an equivalent to Tech 1, 170' on 18/45 with 1 deco gas and max of 30 min of deco, as you can get). From there, there's no experience dive requirement, so you can go straight into a CCR helitrox course, which is pretty close to the CCR 1 program in qualification. So to get the initial CCR rating, the GUE path quite a bit more thorough.

Moving on from level 1 courses, the GUE path in all curriculum is quite streamlined, though. 25 experience dives and you meet the requirement for level 2 which is pretty much the end of the road on the CCR side. But again, the level of proficiency expected for a CCR2 diver is quite high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kieren

The vast majority of my Fundies students do not earn a tech pass on the first go. Many are coming in as experienced tech, cave, and CCR divers and a handful of instructors at those levels as well.

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Is that really true?
The vast majority fails? Of the experienced divers? It's the first time I've ever heard that the vast majority fails Fundies.
Can you tell what they're failing at?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kieren

But you've seen the standards, which seem easy, so everyone must breeze right through it I guess.

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Yes, I think a competent divers should breeze right through fundies or any other OC class for that matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

Is that really true?
The vast majority fails? .

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Thats what I was told. Expect to get a provisional. Dont expect a pass. All of my friends who took fundies passed with a tech pass, but I know a ton of people who have lots of experience that had to go back to work on some stuff. I (and most of my friends) were lucky enough to have instructors who were both gue instructors and instructors for other agencies, so we got alot of ?gue-type? training but through a different agency. For example, somebody that can pass Dan Patterson?s classes likely will be able to pass fundies, because his mindset in teaching is very similar to gue?s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know you guys are on to debating the difficulty and value of a fundies class but I'll add my 2 cents to the initial discussion. I was initially trained to stuff the long hose on the sm bottle in ccr but after several frustrating dives where the long hose caught on something or just free flowed I switched to wrapping the long hose under the loop and clipping it to the right d-ring. Many years later, I can say that I will not go back. Since then, I have seen many divers struggle with the same issue and most have ended up wrapping the long hose. The advantages are numerous including immediate access to oc gas from the right sm bottle (not even necessary to unclip). It also promotes breathing the long hose before the dive as a part of the predive check procedure. This is easy to skip when you have to restow the hose on the bottle. A BOV simplifies the donation procedure by keeping the donors gas source in the left hand while donating with the right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I think its important to note that at least on the RB80 (JJ guys can speak for that unit), its REALLY flood resistant. Taking the loop out of your mouth even with the BOV open isn't really a big deal. I think for less flood resistant units the priorities might shift a bit.

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While I agree that the RB80 is incredibly flood tolerant (tolerant, not resistant) I know one senior RB80 diver that would disagree with this statement after taking a caustic during an emergency scenario.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

Is that really true?
The vast majority fails?

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My comment from years of seeing and mentoring(but never instructing) divers who have gone through parts of the curriculum. To be clear, I have been a GUE supporter and diver for a long time, but never an active instructor(of any agency, nor do I wish to be one for personal reasons).

No, the vast majority do not fail. Failure is reserved for blatantly DANGEROUS divers. Who endanger themselves and/or others in their team.

I think that most divers earn either a provisional or a rec pass coming out of class. Tech passes are difficult. a 3ft bouyancy window is more like 18inches up/down. Please forgive the non metric, but that's the easiest way to explain it for me. Keeping that kind of bouyancy while ascending, sharing gas with a diver, while also shooting an SMB at depth or during a stop at 20ft, can be exceedingly difficult, but that is a required skill. It's not even just the bouyancy, trim, kicks, or the drills, but also the buddy communication, situational awareness etc.

That being said, I'd like to point you to a good scubaboard thread regarding Fundies and many other GUE courses: https://www.scubaboard.com/community...entory.473690/
This thread even has a post(i can't find at the moment) of someone who came in sounding a lot like you, even had a free class given to them to prove a point, and came out extremely impressed with the level of instruction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord1234

No, the vast majority do not fail. Failure is reserved for blatantly DANGEROUS divers. Who endanger themselves and/or others in their team.

I think that most divers earn either a provisional or a rec pass coming out of class. Tech passes are difficult.

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Having to go back to get a card kinda sounds like a fail though.

Hearing all this almost makes me wanna borrow doubles and do the class. Still sound off to me. Vast majority to me sound like at least 75% ... that's a lot. I wonder whether it's same with every instructor.

About the hog loop thing. I think I might set the JJ up with the 40s and try it out after the class.

Now that I thought about this, I wanna do the class with Draker and Waldo as three man team.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

Now that I thought about this, I wanna do the class with Draker and Waldo as three man team.

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I bet the three of you would be funnier than Curly, Moe, and Larry. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

Now that I thought about this, I wanna do the class with Draker and Waldo as three man team.

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Sounds like a Thunder Dome scenario to me.


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcm-tOGiva0

I guess this is better than “scout master Kevin”

I've been using this config for a while now. It's how we did it in class and I was told to use this config for a while before changing stuff around... which does make sense, I guess.

With a break-away it's fine, I guess, but I have no idea why anyone would not use a break-away connector of some sort. This arguement that you're such a amazing diver that you'll be always able to open the boldsnap straight away when stressed out, kinda sounds like the 'I'm too good to ever need a HUD' argument.

BTW: I think from the last accident we have learned (at least if you didn't know already), that a diver on ccr might need gas straight away after all. If you saw you're buddy toxing or panicking or whatever you really think you wanna close the loop, push it over your head, fiddle around with a boldsnap (that's there for no reason), try to donate the reg and than get back on the loop?
I believe, that if you think you wont be affected by a real life situation like this, you should really reconsider and try to think about this logically and leave dogmatic thinking at the door for a minute. Is this really what you want to do when the #### hits the fan? I don't think I do. In training it's super easy, if you're scared or under a lot of stress, opening that boldsnap isn't not going to be easier.

It work fine for me in training but for anything in real life, I don't know. It's looks slick and it's convenient for sure. I wonder what that 'human factors' dude thinks about this. Although, I don't know if he is a gue guy...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

I've been using this config for a while now. It's how we did it in class and I was told to use this config for a while before changing stuff around... which does make sense, I guess.

With a break-away it's fine, I guess, but I have no idea why anyone would not use a break-away connector of some sort. This arguement that you're such a amazing diver that you'll be always able to open the boldsnap straight away when stressed out, kinda sounds like the 'I'm too good to ever need a HUD' argument.

BTW: I think from the last accident we have learned (at least if you didn't know already), that a diver on ccr might need gas straight away after all. If you saw you're buddy toxing or panicking or whatever you really think you wanna close the loop, push it over your head, fiddle around with a boldsnap (that's there for no reason), try to donate the reg and than get back on the loop?
I believe, that if you think you wont be affected by a real life situation like this, you should really reconsider and try to think about this logically and leave dogmatic thinking at the door for a minute. Is this really what you want to do when the #### hits the fan? I don't think I do. In training it's super easy, if you're scared or under a lot of stress, opening that boldsnap isn't not going to be easier.

It work fine for me in training but for anything in real life, I don't know. It's looks slick and it's convenient for sure. I wonder what that 'human factors' dude thinks about this. Although, I don't know if he is a gue guy...

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Which of the "last" accidents are you discussing? A toxing diver should not have the reg removed from their mouth, but rather held in so they don't spit it out if possible. Removing the reg leads to aspiration/drowning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord1234

Which of the "last" accidents are you discussing? A toxing diver should not have the reg removed from their mouth, but rather held in so they don't spit it out if possible. Removing the reg leads to aspiration/drowning.

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Yeah, I meant roaring river. It wasn't the last accident, just the last report. I think he spit or ripped his DSV out.
Eitherway, if you're tying to donate quickly, you wanna go through a 4 or 5 step process? It worked fine for me in training but I don't think it's a good procedure in a real life situation.
I think at least using a break away connection instead of cave line would be better. That way the long hose is only blocked by the loop... which is bad enough. I my class the instructor said I can use either the break away or the cave line and he was giving me the same reasoning I've heard from gue people before.

In class, at one time my buddy was flustered enough to hand me his light head instead of his reg and that was just training without any real stress or danger.