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What does everyone think of the the following information regarding Telford and Little River? This is what I have been told.
Little River - Being taken over as a state park and will not allow scooters.
Telford - Being bought by SRWMD and not sure what they plan to do.
Does anyone else have any information on this?
No problems, just access both of them from the river. Then you can do what you want.
Good point Mr. Tegg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
A case can be made that scooters should be fine in Little River (just like Manatee) Open dialog and mutual understanding.
Is Little river being made a state park or is this just rumor?
That would seem to be the case. But am I not correct that you can't do that at Troy? I've been told that going into the cave there is absolutely forbidden, no matter how you access it. You're not allowed to carry lights or reels in the basin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
If it is, there goes another solo diving site. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregthecaver
I would be more concerned about "no solo diving in state park", and "no openwater\nocavecert diving" and "park open only till sunset" hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
Joe, accessibility from river\water is not a problem for authorities to take control over (to enforce any restrictive rules) the area: the best example - Silver Glen, try to swim under the rope with your gear, and explain that body of water is a national property.
On the other hand tables and steps at Telford would be a nice feature but would you exchange it for a "free uncontrolled access"?
I personally against scooter prohibition in any local cave (so shoot me).
You are right. Since it is the State that owns the spring, then all the land around it is "public" land, including the run. Unlike a private owner, the State can restrict use of public land. Swimming up a run into a State Park would be viewed the same as climbing over the gate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Little River: Yes, it is going be a state park, I don't know if they will ban scooters or not, my guess is that they will, but I sure hope not. What I do know is they will not allow solo diving and that sucks.
Telford: Last I heard SRWMD was "trying" to purchase Telford, they have indeed bought 20something pieces all around Telford. If and when they get Telford, they will most likely turn it over to Parks & Rec. to manage. Again, no solo diving and no 24 hour access which sucks again. I used to dive this very early morning before I opened the shop for Cathy and may start doing the same here in the very near future. On the upside, it will be a safe place to leave your dive vehicle and it will be clean.
I only have a minute but found the following list of land acquistion projects on the DEP website and Little R. is in "Group B". I don't have time right now to figure out what Group A versus B is, but thought this would be of interest:
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/lands/acq...0FF%20List.pdf
It does indicate less than fee simple acquisition. I used to do this kind of work for another state's conservation agency and can tell you that being on the list is a long way from anything happening - on the other hand the property has gotten their bureaucration attention.
I can actually spell "bureaucratic", just can't type so well.
All the parks I know of have jurisdiction 400ft out from mean high water mark, that, is actually a state law as I understand it. I do not know the chapter and verse but I could find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
The "Little R." project on DEPs list is in Gadsen County, so it has nothing to do with the spring.
Apologies for jumping the gun!
Seems to me, prior activities should be grandfathered in if it was already being allowed prior to purchase. That's like the state buying a spring, posting no cave diving cause they think cave diving is dangerous, but just before the purchase, cave diving had been done for decades and decades and decades there. Like sidemount diving - the proof is in the experience. You can't say sidemount diving is an unacceptable form of safe cave diving, because there are many many divers returning from sidemount dives. Same for solo. Same for scootering and not damaging cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
This cookie-cutter rule mess seems quite retarded when no site-specific regard is given. If the site had been previously closed, and the state bought it to open it up, then GREAT! They can post all the restrictions they want. Just let me in the cave. :D But don't create a fee-based site when it was originally free and then restrict the level of risk I can personally accept (or no longer be able to scooter where I've scootered hundreds of times - if I owned a scooter).
As long as people keep bending ears of local officials about how:
*Those solo divers are insane maniacs and going to get themselves killed!!!
*Those scooter divers are ruining the cave!!!
These things are going to be banned.
I am just an intro diver and less than a year into this sport so my opinion counts very little, but I think as long as people continue to make mountains out of molehills, the state is going to act with a sledgehammer and not a scalpel to solve the issues.
With the new hours that will no doubt be enforced on Little River and Telford the available caves for me to dive other than between 8am and 4pm:
*Ginnie Springs
And that just sucks for people (like me) who like to be able to go diving on weekdays but have little/no availability during banker's hours. I do not solo dive or own a scooter, but I would like to have the opportunity to do so some day. At the rate things seem to be going I will not ever be able to pursue those aspects of the sport as site after site gets closed down with these restrictions.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
I'm not sure if I would like Little River to be a State Park or not. Suwannee County already seems to take pretty good care of the site.
TELFORD!!! On the other hand is an absolute pig sty and maybe if the State took that over and kept out the littering drunks and the morons I saw hanging out there looking for a fight last month then maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
It was my first visit to Telford and I was greeted by an giant mound of trash 5 feet from a perfectly good dumpster and bottles in the spring.
Awful...Just awful. :cry:
Why would Little River become a state park? Maybe someone saw the thing that Serota was talking about. It's kinda like Blue Srings..... Which one?
We tell them all the time on forums like this,they read our forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
As a side note we can probably count on Telford being closed for a year,like Little River was inorder to do control erosion. Take pictures of Telford now,because it will look a lot different when they get done. Also,we probably see access eliminated to Telford and Terrappin sinks.
Kelly, is there a benifit to the eroison control measures?
If so shouldn't we be glad they are buying this property and preserving it for the future?
Personally if closing the site for a year, to allow years of enjoyment, it doesn't sound that bad to me.
As for little river, looks like we better PT a little bit more for the long swim :)
You know when Little River was completed there was out rage about how awful it looked. I still miss old LR with the nice shade tree. In retrospect with the big trench missing that dumped top soil into the spring when there was a deluge rain,then maybe stabilization of the bank is good. Telford has shown significant wear and tear down to the spring with foot,and vehicle traffic. I think erosion control measures at Telford would be great,I just wish there was a way there could be construction and retain access.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuster500
agreed
Because the county can't afford to maintain it anymore, that is exactly how Lafayette Blue Springs became a state park. Lafayette was a county park for something like 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
the state parks originaly allowed solo diving.
but shortly after taking over a solo diver died in one of the state park cave systems and the knee jerk reaction was to ban solo diving.
it will suck to have another system fall under this rule.
i actualy prefer to dive both LR and Telford solo, kind of a zen thing for me.
fixing up Telford and cleaning it up aren't bad things, i'm sick of showing up for a dive and finding the sinks full of watermelon rinds and beer bottles, and small trees chopped down for no reason.
but will agree with Kelly, will hate to see the system closed for a year.
hmmmmm, maybe while they work on erosion control at the spring, they can still allow acess at the sink????
too bad Telford and Terrapin Sinks will be permanently closed. i preffered to enter the system via Terrapin and get that 500 ft headstart.
I thought that the NACD or the NSSCDS wanted to buy some caves. Maybe they don't have the money to buy Telford. Or the SRWMD bought it out underthem. I have heard that the SRWMD has a bad repor on protecting things.
The Little River Conservation Area in Gadsden County is what is on the list.
The Little River Cave System is NOT in Gadsden County.
Gadsden County is located near Tallahassee.
Relax......Little River is safe for now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Little River under discussion here is not in Gladsen County it is Suwannee County -- the Little River County Park. I was told this by other state park personnel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lester
You don't know who I work for, strike that, WORKED for up until yesterday . LR in Suwannee County north of Branford IS going to be a state park, I've seen the internal memos :smt021Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lester
Kiss it all goodbye.
Pretty soon there will be no place left to just go and cave dive without all the government interference and hassles.
Little River has always been a true gem where you could always just do whatever kind of dive you wanted to and nobody asked any questions or told you that you can't do this or use that. I guess that once the State takes it over we'll all have to undergo a full body cavity search and a retina scan just to dive there or maybe they will just close it down all together.
I suspect "Sneak Diving" is about to become more popular. Maybe it's time to publish a how to book.
I sure wish I lived back in the day before all this got so complicated. DANG IT ALL!!!!! :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
I feel your painQuote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
Buy a boat and dive steel caves.
Screw the politics. At some point it becomes not worth it, and when you reach that point vote with your wallet.
Each of us has a different threshold. When its reached, our money goes elsewhere. That's the best solution - just make sure you TELL PEOPLE why you're not buying their gas (both for car/truck and tanks), shopping in their stores, eating in their restaurants and recommending "dive instructors" in that particular specialty to your friends!
Pretty whiney... becoming a state park by far not the worst thing that could happen. Yes, you will lose the ability to solo dive. You could possibly lose the ability to scooter. Otherwise, it will stay just the same and then we can form a Friends Of Little River group to work there and improve the park like what has happened at Peacock where we now enjoy a great relationship with State Park personnel, the safest cave diving site in the state (in terms of theft), a specfic-built parking lot with picnic tables and gear benches, a line commitee to keep them in good repair and run like cave divers want them to be, etc. etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
dont go there :smt075Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
hmmm
my sources say that while the county may be interested in buying Telford and turning it into a park, the current owner has no desire to sell the property to any governmental agency. he will only sell to a private individual.
of course that could mean Telford gets closed completely, or the possibility of a fee to dive there.
Whiney!!!?? Aww. Now you done gone and hurt muh feelin's.
I take it all back. I think the state should declare eminent domain on all spring/cave properties with recreational potential, fence it off, station armed guards, Mine all water access. and IF they decide any of us are worthy enough to utilize the resource then we will be required to get a bar code tattooed on our foreheads to gain access.
Well?? This could be a way to keep the littering idiots (Littiots?) out of Telford.
Okay so more and more Government control is a good thing. I've seen the light!!!!
I wonder if those are the same littering idiots that leave their catheters on the picnic tables at Peacock or Eagle's Nest...Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveranger
If sites stay open, consider it a success. Think of how many places are closed to cave divers. I don't see how this is a loss, Peacock has been a great example of cooperation between cavers and these state parks.
***DISCLAIMER: this is my opinion, please don't bent out of shape***
I guess it shows that people who litter are not bound by their activites, cavediving or drinking PBR. Their lack of respect for places they visit is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
No, I reserve the right to get upset and your unilateral disclaimer is totally invalid. I am working myself into a frenzy at this very moment. You have no right to an opinion that doesn't agree with mine.....argh...Quote:
Originally Posted by kuster500
Can you imagine the response of the local residents who have been using the land these past forty or so years if Telford is suddenly closed to them? Instead of simply trashing the place, there will be cave diving vehicles riddled with buckshot- a North Florida version of the drive-by shooting.
Should be interesting.
Johnny
Madison Blue Springs was owned by a paper co. for years and was open as a defacto Swimmin' hole Anna Bruic and her Son Mike purchased it and began improvements. To help pay for those improvements they charged a small fee. They gated the property so the local grentry could not come and go as they pleased. The result? Mike's trailer was shot at more than once. He was theatened a couple of times. The end result being that he did something really stupid and thats when the Sheriff desides to enforce the law.
wtf? elaboration, please??Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Ummm, Okay...I quit :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BabyDuck