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So I LOVE my LP85's but I want to add a second set so I'm not running to the closest shop for fills after my first dive. What should my next set be? 95, 104, 120???
It wasn't a big deal when I lived in CC... but now when I come down any time wasted in the middle of the day really impacts my dive time.
Thanks,
Tim
What you really, really need, is a pair of Worthington lp 77's. Now they are hard to find, but I happen to have a spare set.
Just buy a second set of 85s. Unless you absolutely need more gas. But if youre just looking for a second set get a second set of what you got
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I have 2 sets of lp 72's (2250 psi) and ABSOLUTELY LOVE them for open water.
Was thinking if I'm going to buy, might as well go up in size, but is there an equivalent to the 85's with a larger volume?
Why go up in size?
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To extend dive time, would be the obvious answerQuote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
I have a set of 120’s that need a good home....
That isnt always the case. Sometimes moving up in tank size adds weight and drag and actually limits the pros of extra gas. Really depends on many factorsQuote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
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Maybe a stage would be a better or another choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
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Sorry for the semi-hijack, but I noticed that Luxfer has 3365psi aluminium tanks which have about 12l volume (the last one on the list):
https://www.luxfercylinders.com/prod...inium-cylinder
Has anyone tried them for sidemount? They sound pretty heavy, are they any better than steel when it comes to unclipping the bottom and pushing them in front?
I was initially thinking 120's but then thought asking here what would be the equivalent of 85's for my next set... I'm thinking 120's may be TOO big.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdalcher
Lp 120's are fine once you are in the water. Carrying them to the water, thats the trick. Get a hand truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
i can get just as far swimming with 85's as I can with 108's... to heavy and too much drag. I'd go with another set of 85's.
In side mount I had the exact same experience. A set of 85s and a stage will get me much further than a set of 108s and I find the 85s and a stage more comfortable than 108s and not much of a big difference in swim efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver
so the standard stage is an AL80?Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
What are the physical differences between LP85 and 95's ? If I were going to stay with a second set of 85's, reason I ask is I see 95's come up for sale way more often than 85's.
Assuming all are FabersQuote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
95's are 8" OD, 85's are 7" OD. 95's are also 2" shorter. I do not like diving 95's, too stubby for me.
If you are wanting a tank that will not change your buoyancy and trim but in size "bigger", then LP120's from Faber dive the same as 85's in terms of trim and buoyancy. As stated above though, while they don't actually add any real drag, they are quite a bit heavier than the 85's, over 15lbs heavier each, and also 3" longer, so that takes effort to get moving and stop which is the biggest thing most people notice and why you get anecdotes about not getting appreciably farther than the 85's alone. The extended penetration isn't quite linear for me, but it's about 95%.
If I were you, I'd try to find another set of 85's just to keep it easy on yourself. Harder to find than 95's, but you'll be kicking yourself a lot less for having matching tanks.
Standard stages are AL80's yes, though I would recommend taking a stage class from someone who actually knows what they're doing with sidemount stages because they are a righteous PITA
If you scooter and/or go into sidemount only passages then by all means get the 120s. If only swimming big cave, then all the above points have merit. Find some 120s to try out and then decide.
Tom said everything you need to know. I hate 95s in bm and sm.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
One thing to keep in mind is different tanks can be annoying in sm for reasons you dont think about. My 85s are dialed in perfectly. When I went to a slightly longer or wider tank I found theyd hit my drysuit pockets differently and its annoying. My wife prefers worthy 100s to 85s. Theyre basically the same tank but 100s are slightly shorter. Just that tiny difference was a world of difference to her since shes short. The 85s ended mid-knee on her and were annoying when frog kicking. The 100s are just short enough comparatively to eliminate that.
As I said in an earlier comment, there are a ton of factors that go into it. For instance Tom is much taller than me, so some tanks work better for him than others and vice versa. Borrow some tanks or better yet stick with what you already like. Sm can already be a pia when making adjustments. Why add to that.
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I'd recommend a second pair of 85s (or HP 100s, which are about the same size). I personally find 104s/108s (or the shorter 95s) to not really give much advantage in the gas to drag ratio. 120s would, though I personally wouldn't use them much (had a pair; and they sat in the pickup truck bed much of the time). If, however, you're sump diving (or diving really little cave), LP 50s or 45s/46s are pretty nice.
In addition to some of the good (and bad) info you?ve received above, there are even more variables and factors to take into consideration.
Are you diving wet or dry? Are you wearing a thick undergarment or thin? Are you wanting to actually dive small sidemounty cave, or just swim up and down the gold line with the tanks not mounted to your back? Do you want to be able to no mount the tanks or push them through restrictions? Are you planning deep dives that require trimix / high helium content?
The sidemount harness you choose might make a difference. Your skill level and ability might make a difference. Your accessibility to ?cave? fills might make a difference.
Your body shape, size and chemistry might make a difference? Are you naturally ?negative? or do you tend to float?
Not all tanks of the same rated capacity are similar in size, weight or composition. Galvanized 85?s are not the same as painted 85?s. And just because 100?s are ?similar? to 85?s does not mean they have the same buoyancy characteristics or trim out the same way.
And I?m sure there are other factors that should be considered.
Personally I love wearing my PST104?s for most of my north Florida OC cave diving, but I wouldn?t want to wear them in a wetsuit, and I wouldn?t want to wear them in a thin undergarment, and I wouldn?t want to remove one or have to push it through a tight restriction on a regular basis. But I promise you I can get further on 90cuft than I can on 75cuft. But I?m correctly weighted, diving a balanced rig, and in a warm comfortable drysuit.
Having said all that, if you think you know what you are doing in 85?s, and 80%+ of the divers you see are wearing 85?s, why would you consider something else?
There is no comparably sized cylinder that will magically hold more gas. Pressure / volume gas laws don?t work differently for different manufacturers.
If you have figured out correct weighting, buoyancy, and trim with 85?s, things are gonna change with 95?s or 108?s or 120?s. Do you want to add or subtract weight from dive one to dive two, and then back again?
If you haven?t taken a sidemount course with a competent, knowledgeable instructor, I highly recommend it. If you haven?t taken a stage course from a competent, knowledgeable instructor, I highly recommend it before you start slinging a stage through the cave.
Just my 2cents worth and internet advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Good luck.
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Another vote for a second set of 85s. They are good all around tanks. As others have mentioned, it really comes down to what you plan to do whether it would make sense for a different size. If you need more gas, I prefer to stage it than go with 120s. Another good option if you have a good sac rate is a set of lp50s.
Assuming we are talking sidemount here. I think tank size depends upon your size. Shorter smaller people seem to do better with shorter tanks. I am 6'4 and found 104's / 108's to work best for me in bm. In sidemount I found I much preferred Faber lp 120's for most dives. You can certainly work on your air consumption and at one time I was doing a fair amount of free diving and found that I could pretty much keep up with some small people on air consumption. I also found out that lp 120's allowed me to go much farther with a bigger reserve. I don't care how you dice it up but the bigger lp tanks have a far greater reserve especially if you take into consideration that gas doesn't compress linearly. The last 1/3 lasts way longer than the first 1/3 especially in large lp tanks.
I fully agree but then again, I’m a big guy myself. The non linearity of gas compression is easy to see when diving a stage, when you switch to back gas and see you lost the first few hundred psi just from adding gas to your wing and suit here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
And a whole bunch of variables.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
What would you recommend for this guy? That?s the question.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...166f59c100.jpg
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Definitely Heiser 190'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Draker
Don't know if that's Waldo or not but I would recommend a suit. Not just for exposure protection but also for buoyancy reasons. Also, do not go with bigger tanks. With that set up you can't carry 120 full of nitrox. More gas in the tanks would also require you to pump up that wing more. You really don't want that. If that wing loses gas (assuming thing is has a single bladder) and it's a cave with a thick layer of silt or mud or whatever, you're screwed! You're not gonna be able to crawl out. That's dangerous, dude. For real. Don't get yourself killed. I hope somebody told you this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
If an instructor let you through any course like that, you need to look for a new instructor, seriously.
Nah, he is carrying a float, there’s your redundant buoyancy. All he really needs is to reel it in in low passagesQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
Tracy and I have Faber LP85's and LP95's. We like both of them, but use the 85's probably 80% of the time. Recently we have borrowed some Faber LP50's from a friend; they are a lot of fun and gas enough for an hour+ run time in Peacock with plenty of reserve. Ideal for Jug, Buford, etc.
Actually after that photo was taken and SO many people harping on the wing I sent it back to DR and they were like... yeah, it had some issues.... there was hardly any air in the wing when this photo was taken.... and yes it has pretty much always looked like that. And I've been diving it for 7ish years.
I love my LP72's for open water, though I don't like diving them in cave because when I am in a drysuit I have to carry 10lbs to stay neutral.... wet (no wetsuit, just shorts n tshirt) they are perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Are you making all of those statements based on the wing? It is a DR Nomad Extreme, plenty of lift, dual bladder and a slight issue from the factory made it look slammed full of air which has now been fixed. I don't think I've ever actually maxed it out or come anywhere near over pressuring it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
So I wouldn't actually stage as I am not even full cave yet (working on that) and THIS is the post I was looking for. Sounds like I really would be best served with another set of 85's, I would like 120's but the extra length would probably be an irritant to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
Yes, based upon the pic. Good that you got a double bladder. A pic might not give the full picture, I'll give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
That thing is still to full and you really shouldn't use larger tanks with it. And you do need a suit. A stage or bigger tanks will make you heavier in the water.
That thing does not look like it has plenty of lift. At least not in that configuration.
BTW: I suppose James posted that pic to hind at something... maybe you should hit im up on PM if you want another opinion.
I think he?s well aware of my opinion. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
And there?s a lot of things wrong in that pic that have nothing to do with the wing, the bladder, or any manufacturing defects.
There?s a definite deficiency in trim, bottle positioning, hose routing, body position, and thermal / environmental protection.
But again, just my 2cents, and worth less than that when it falls on deaf ears.
Once again, I?ll wish him good luck.
In life, I?ve discovered there is an easy way to do things, and a hard way to do things. And learning from the masses via social media typically will land you in one of those two categories.
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:) it does... same or a bit more than the Katana 2 if I remember correctly. And James HATES it when I am not diving Dry.... and though I HAVE slowly started diving dry on cave dives, I'll always be "wet" on fun open water dives. I always value his opinion though some things I just have to ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
:) I think its the lack of a drysuit that is bugging you most... When I change my wing to something more up to date I do plan on taking another sidemount class because things have changed a LOT since I got the LTX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
If I?m being honest, I?ve given up of you wearing proper exposure protection suitable for the diving environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Your trim, configuration, hose routing and bottle placement all bother me.
Your tanks sticking up and knees pointed down bother me more.
But I think the thing that?s come to bother me the most, is your continued quest to learn (and struggle) by committee.
While I acknowledge and agree that the internet and social media can be a great place to share ideas and exchange info, it can?t / won?t / doesn?t replace the need to spend some quality one-on-one time with a knowledgeable and competent instructor (or mentor) who could help to fix most of your issues in a much shorter period of time.
Or they could at least offer constructive advice and feedback relative to you and your situation.
There?s a TON of value in having an experienced person help you choose the correct harness and tanks that match your style and type of diving. And even more value in having them show you how to correctly configure and route your regs and hoses.
And I?d highly encourage a GUE Fundies course to help with trim, body positioning, propulsion techniques, and getting those knees back in line with the rest of your body.
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I'm surprised that you're suggesting to do GUE fundies when he's not even diving BM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
Every half decent cave instructor should be able to teach trim, proper configuration and propulsion technique.
I find it impressive James is recommending fundies. Too few non-gue instructors would ever recommend a fundies course. The reality is even if that person never takes another gue course it makes all subsequent courses easier for the student and the instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
You would think any good instructor could teach those things but youd be incorrect. Sadly too few do teach the basics exceptionally well. Its one of my biggest issues with our instructors locally (save a few good ones).
I just took fundies 2 weeks ago and learned a ton. Most things I knew but were retaught in a different way and it was very productive. I also never had a formal class on all of my propulsion techniques. I learned from some excellent mentors (most of which held gue certs) and obviously did well enough to pass many technical courses. But fundies really honed my bad habits out of me and gave me a precise and formulated way of evaluating my skills and bettering them. It was one of my best classes.
James gets an A for the day for his recommendation
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Well that list is probably 3 or 4 people at most for sm in Florida. Definitely a lot more in Mexico. If I am not mistaken Waldo took his training from an IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
lets go backwards up your post.
I'm about to get a new harness(which will also change how I attach my cylinders), are you suggesting that I have someone help me find the "best" harness , rather than getting the harness and then doing an update class/time after purchasing?
There are very few people I value opinions of in Arkansas/Tennessee (though the move to knoxville is likely to change that, alot more cave/technical divers on this side of the state) so my best choice is turning to the forum we all love for advice/critiques. With this post and others learning has happened on my part as well as others that participated in the threads... SOOOOO :) I'll keep doing it.
and almost last :) my profile changes with my environment... the photo you posted was a drift dive on Rainbow River... in a cave environment (except maybe Ginnie) I am much more stream lined. I just don't have enough experience in Ginnie and a dive there wears me out and I get sloppy.
It took diving the quarries for me to see the advantage of dry suits (that and loosing 80 lbs) I've now got 5 cave dives in a drysuit... will add more before the end of the year not going to promise every cave dive will be dry but maybe 50/50.
last but definitely not least... GUE ..... I fell out of my chair laughing so hard... I'm NOT that kind of diver.. I'm all about enjoying my dives, I will never be an exploration diver... no desire to be, only want full cave to pursue very specific types of cave dives which I could do now but feel the extra training might help.
All that said... I'm considering heavily the XDeep... if you are ever in Florida when I come down would you want to spend 3 or 4 hours with me on that harness? don't need a card and would NEVER ask you to go in a cave with non-drysuit diver.. but think I could learn at least one or two things from you.
I did.. and he was relentless on the things he felt I was deficient in... at least cave specific skills... he corrected a few things I had wrong at the time with my SM configuration but that was not the focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Not to pile on but theres a few things in your comments that stand out as problematic. One: your profile shouldnt change that dramatically depending on where you dive. Maybe if you are doing single tank sm vs normal configuration. But what is in that photo would bother me if it was me in the photo even if its a 10 ft rainbow river diveQuote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
2: find a quality instructor then buy your gear either from them or based on their recommendations. Im no instructor but if I was and lets say I typically taught people on xdeeps and you show up in a razor, it would suck. Why make your instructor work extra?
3: gue has nothing to do with exploration or whatnot. Fundies is about perfecting basic skills. I dove sm for 10 years and recently am enjoying bm more. Regardless I benefited from the class. Hell just doing fundies in a single tank for a rec pass is beneficial if you dont want to jump back to bm doubles.
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Are you being intentionally obtuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Or are you really so ignorant to believe that GUE FUNDIES has anything to do with exploration?
Do you think that GUE divers don?t enjoy their dives? I promise you that they are all enjoying their dives far more than you ever will because they are safe, well trained, well configured and diving a balanced, thought out rig that is streamlined, trimmed out and works regardless of environment.
Your picture clearly demonstrates that you are NOT that kind of diver.
I knew better than to comment on your post, but just like a train wreck, I couldn?t look away.
Shame on me. 🥲
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+100Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
But he?s not actually looking for sound logical well reasoned advice.
He?s just bored, and needs attention.
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Further to this. He needs to find a quality instructor with a ton of patience. And someone who he?s willing to listen to, take advice from, and implement the changes suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
He needs to find an instructor who?s willing to work with him.
He needs to find an instructor with whom he?s compatible. Someone he respects. And someone who won?t tolerate his nonsense.
And yes, absolutely, that instructor needs to understand the needs of the diver, and the goals of the diver. And they need to decide on a SM harness that will help him meet those goals, AND the instructor needs to be well versed in the assembly, setup, and configuration of the specific sidemount harness chosen.
I?m certainly a fan of brand X, and if a student showed up on day one with brand R, I?d have to buy them a plane ticket and direct them south, as I?d be little to no help.
Or if you showed up with the latest and greatest LTZZZZZZ, I?d suggest you open the yellow pages and search Lake City, and if your harness required lots of ?MODDDDS?, then you might be in the right state, but the wrong zip code.
I can?t stress enough the importance of choosing a competent and knowledgeable instructor who you are compatible with and willing to learn from and who is familiar with the harness of choice.
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You don't book an instructor by the hour. There is not much point in setting up a harness without going diving as you will likely have to adjust stuff. That's why courses are set up the way they are. You should book at least two days. Instead of buying more tanks, I'd invest those 400 bucks or whatever in training.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
You think that course was better than mod1 oder cave ccr? I can't help but think I'd be super disapointed with five full days of kicking practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
I do think that the average gue in better that he average iantd/tdi/whatever guy but that because there are so many shitty divers kneeling down to place a cookie or dragging their knees through the mud etc. That said, I'm not that impressed with a lot or gue divers either.
Last trip, I swam out of a cave at my leisurly pace with 120s (really Euro 18l but close enough) and a top mounted stage and I flew by a team of dir divers with 85s, a single dangly stage and their little stubby fins ... moving not very efficiently at all. That's when I thought to myself, again, how that dir stuff is ok when being towed by a scooter but sucks for kick diving. It's super slow and has tons of drag. I'm not even convinved that the gue students kick very efficiently. Too many short strockes in cave you could drive a semi through.
And learing body position an trim is really not that hard. Just try to hold your postion in strong current you can still kick against and find the position/fin kick in which it's easiest to hold your position in and you're good. IMHO that's how people should train for that, not in a pool or quarry type body of water.
It's not that I don't believe you but I can't imagine what you would do for five full days in that class. Unless you now just wanne be part of some crew. (I don't wanna say douche crew so I don't :-D)
From the pictures and videos I have seen of him.in sidemount I am not suprised that he ignored your setup. The vast majority of Florida instructors have absolutely no clue about sidemount and this is a prime example.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I guess I'm also one of the minorities here who prefers my 108s to my 85s (Fabers) in most conditions -- I'm 6'1", ~165, and I find that the bigger tanks trim out better for me throughout the dive. I've tried PSTs/Worthingtons (not sure which -- galvanized tanks), both 85s and 104/108s and hated them -- heavy and hard to trim right (for me). I've now got 2 pairs of 104s and 1 pair of 85s, and the 85s stay in the shed most trips, but I hang on to them for shorter dives with snug spots (e.g. Jug). I've had no problem diving the bigger tanks, including smaller twisty passage like Rocky Horror or the Wormhole, and no issues with a stage or two. I definitely come out of the water with much more reserve left diving the big tanks -- not unusual for my buddy on 85s to come out at 1200 and I'll still have 2K. They are bulkier, so probably wouldn't work well for someone with a small frame. I did go through a number of tanks before settling on these, and there's a lot of tank-trading that goes on here, so if you try something that doesn't work, you can probably trade them out for something that does -- Faber 85s are always in high demand. Definitely want 2 sets of tanks so don't have to go for fills between dives.
Note, I'm a 'tourist' cave diver, not taking the sharp end of the line down silty little holes, but this
I agree with your points, just an off topic comment
Maybe your buddy needs some bigger tanks, too, or turn the dives sooner. I don?t think I ever got that low on my main tanks, hope I?ll never have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
Actually I thought you were bored and that was why you posted a photo and crawled all over me for something that wasn't even on topic... I mean it was enjoyable, the more you pick on me, the more I think I'm doing something right or that Marissa logged into your account :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
Thanks for staying on topic. So I guess I need to plan on renting a pair of 104's on my next trip... Not sure I want a taller cylinder like the 120's would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
And yes, I am a tourist cave diver as well, however being a quarry diver I don't mind low vis as long as I'm not the one creating it.
-Tim
I agree with you. People are being trained in 85s because at entry level they are easier to use initially,but if your training is adequate, then you have the skill set to transition to bigger tanks. FWIW, 85s are a marginal tank at best for cave diving. They don't have adequate gas for bigger dives, and these tanks were implicated in a cave diving accident because they were carried beyond "safe" distance. 95s/108s are great tanks for longer dives, and even 120's have awesome buoyancy characteristics.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
Not to argue but because somebody stretched the gas on 85s isnt the fault of the tank?s size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
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Or just get more 85s like most people recommend.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
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why in the world would I want to do that? did you read the original post?Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
I not commenting it is the tank's fault,but the paradigm that a lot of training is done in 85s, and then people will follow a natural progression with penetration distance in that configuration. 85s are a great entry level tank and there are some dives that they are an appropriate tank,but for the most part bigger gas quantity is found in 95s and up is a better choice in cave diving. So it begs the question, if people are given sidemount training in 85's,but not trying larger tanks in that course, is the training at this point insufficient. When is less gas a better thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Get some larger tanks and try them, and modify your rig to trim these tanks. If you have some trouble, then find a mentor/instructor to accomplish your goal. If you have a well balanced rig you can easily go from 85's to 120s, and everything in between without wholesale modification-heck I had a homemade jacket BC sidemount rig once that could trim anything, it isn't impossible,just takes time and experimenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
You asked what tanks you should get as a second set. 90% of people said 85s. So yes I read.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I?m starting to see where Drakers coming from.
Seems like you ask for advice but dont want to take the advice. If you just want larger tanks then you should have specifically said that. You asked what next set of tanks. The peanut gallery answered you. Do with it what you want.
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Tank CF @ 3600 Empty Weight Empty Buoyancy Dubs Weight Full Dubs Buoy Full Dubs Buoy Empty Dubs Mins @ 66ft
LP120 156.6 44.9 4.1 115 -17 8 139
HP133 139.6 42.4 1.5 108 -20 3 124
LP108 140.1 41.0 3.0 105 -17 6 125
HP120 125.6 39.2 0.7 99 -19 1 112
HP117 123.2 37.6 0.2 95 -20 0 110
LP95 123.7 37.2 1.7 95 -17 3 110
HP100 106.0 34.0 -0.6 85 -18 -1 94
LP85 107.2 31.2 2.3 80 -13 5 95
HP80 83.8 28.3 -1.7 70 -17 -3 74
LP72 71.0 26.0 0.0 64 -12 0 63
LP50 65.9 18.9 1.2 49 -8 2 59
LP27 33.0 11.7 -1.1 29 -8 -2 29
Very useful information, Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoober
I was about to fall for the "just stick with 85's" and then Kelly made a couple of posts that were very relevant. Although I value any feedback, it is hard to ignore a well defined response. Although I would never push 3'rds, I would like to extend my dives a bit further, especially in Ginnie or LR.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
You might be amazed at how much you can ?extend? a dive through improved technique, proper trim, and a streamlined configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I?d focus more on improving your skills, gaining experience, and learning how to better read the first 1000? of cave before I?d worry about trying to manage larger cylinders and hoping to go farther.
Either way, good luck.
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Good luck then. What I read is ?I got an answer I wanted to I?m going with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I agree with Draker. That $450 for a set of tanks may be better suited going towards teaining to be a better diver than a new set of tanks.
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Waldo is a intro to cave diver that 'would never push 3rds' (whatever that means).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
If he's already having issues with his 85s... and moving up to increase his intro range might not be the best plan IMHO.
BTW: On 6ths the range in not gonna increase much on 95s or 108s.
Part of his plan is having larger tanks for non-cave diving, I think a quarry,but it makes perfect sense to work on trim related to using these tanks while in a non-cave environment, then transition to cave. What is one rationale for doubles versus single tank intro to cave. you got more gas to address issues. 95/108s provide that level of gas needed- lets take the training wheels off that bike and learn how to ride.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Sorry, my agency doesn't recognize "intro" I can dive 3rds, make nav decisions among other things... don't judge based on Draker's opinion of me :PQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
:) yes open water is a part of it but do want to extend my time, not so much my range, in cave (ok in ginnie my range). I am finally getting around to doing adv nitrox/deco or equivalent training so I can hopefully finish full cave SOON... My books came in yesterday, now I just gotta get them from the shop in Nashville.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Draker can talk all he wants about "learning" the cave... but I'm pretty sure he has been in Ginnie more in the last week than I have been in the last 5 years.... its not like I live in N Florida anymore. A bit more breathing gas would do wonders there and LR.
Totally agree. Been cave diving in North Florida now for 22 years. My primary sidemount cylinders are 85s. Now, when a dive plan dictates it, I will use PST 120s or Faber LP 108s. My personal preference is 7 1/4 inch diameter cylinders. For me, more streamlined than 8 inchersQuote:
Originally Posted by Draker
As a very wise cave instructor once said. Nobody has ever died in a cave because he carried too much air.
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I'm not judging upon what James said. You said you weren't full cave yet, which usually means intro. Unless it's that odd naui system or whatever some of these gue knock-offs do.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
James got a point about knowing were not to swim and technique though. IIRC it was actually James that told me where not to swim in Ginnie after my first dive there.
85s are already getting you into deco in Ginnie btw.
I agree with all of this. It just sounds to me like he's not gonna get much use out of larger tanks at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Yes, NAUI, Cave1.... And I totally get knowing "where" to swim... just like reading the rapids in whitewater, make the river do your work for you... except its harder to read the water when its hitting you right in the face and pretty much clear... Ginnie and LR are my motivation for a bit more air for this reason... Don't need a stress test at the MD because I get it every time I dive Ginnie.. I'm good once I'm past the lips but just like hitting the gas pedal on a blown 460... I watch my air pressure drop just like the fuel guage in the hotrod when making the swim to the lips....Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
have only ever gone into deco ONCE at Ginnie... and it technically wasn't deco because I forgot to set my computer to 32% and it thought I was on air.... I did my "time" because well.. going to have to sooner or later anyway.. so LP85's are not even getting me into Deco yet at least not there... came closer at LR and even then is 10 minutes close?
:)
And not specific to you but I ask everyone I dive with "how did I look, anything I could change or do better" after completing a cave dive and no one has had major issues , little tweaks or suggestions... just as I have for them (I mean Forrest I obviously had nothing to say to, but other not so distinguished divers) yet it seems the people that want to critique me do it having never even dove with me and pull totally irrelevant photos of me in open water as examples. I'm surprised he didn't find the one of me upside down drifting....and use it.
Anyway, thanks for not being so negative as prior posts.
Tim
Let me be the first to tell you. Nothing about this sidemount configuration looks good.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
You have major configuration issues, and more than just a few little tweaks need to be made.
I?d suggest you learn to dive sidemount properly, with the help of a qualified, competent and knowledgeable instructor.
https://youtu.be/JKDf42SKln8
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Are you taking full cave with the instructor who passed you for cave 1?
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It's not about looking at the water, reading the cave means looking at the shape of the cave and recognizing where the water flows and where it doesn't. Here's a simple analogy: Driving on the interstate, if you're in an open lane with no one in front of you, you're mileage will be X. However, if you're right on the rear bumper of an 18 wheeler you're in their draft and your gas mileage goes up, saving you gas and making your car work less. But, if you're roughly 30' behind the truck you're in the turbulence and your gas mileage is worse than not being behind the truck at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
There's the easy way to dive in flow (learn from a mentor or instructor how to read the cave) and the hard way (don't). Reading this thread, it seems like you've made up your mind even though multiple people have tried to offer you solid advice.
I believe that?s referred to as the Ricky Bobby technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
I was not being negative, I just gave my honest assessement based on what you wrote and on the picture. I don't know what the deal is with you an draker but what he's been posting doesn't sound negativ to me... it's what an instructor would tell you in a class. Unless that instructor has a very sloppy style. Trim, kick and configuration in that youtube video is not cave-ready. IMHO that's being objectiv. It looks self-taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I don't think that's a good strategy. In my experience most people will hold back when you asked stuff like that. Unless you have a good regular buddy who doesn't mind comming across as rude, you're likely not getting the best feedback from them. Also, full training days and a few tipps and little tweaks are not the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I don't know about that analogy. When have Mercians ever considered gas mileage?Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
+10000Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
This is really the only advice you need from this thread. (Besides finding an instructor or mentor who will beat this paradigm into you)
:) no, I get it I can see where the eddy's are , the whitewater references was just to say that where river reading is pretty visual, reading water in a cave is not so much on the visual side. And your right I am choosing to ignore most of the posts about my sidemount configurations because well, this thread was about logical progression on cylinders. The only people I will listen to about my sidemount are people who are actively my instructors or people I am diving with or have dove with. Honestly of everyone posting you are the closest I have come to diving with because we tend to run into each other at dive sites, I don't think we have ever actually been in cave at the same time though (possibly Kelly as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Who knows... can't finish full cave until I get through adv nitrox/deco...Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Good plan. Seems to be working well for you so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Good luck.
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And what we see in that youtube video is the result of that strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
So if you already know that you wont listen to any advice, why ask questions on a forum. Makes no sense. I guess that means you're really just trolling.
If the only people you?re going to listen to are tour instructors or people you?re diving with, why the f are you asking about tanks here? Makes no senseQuote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
In cave 1 if your tanks looked like they did in drakers video, then please seek a new instructor. They should have addressed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
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Attachment 22533Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
That statement totally blows away the need for a post dive debriefing. And seriously a cave diver NOT come across as rude? some of the least caring people I know when it comes to them caring if someone thought they were rude...Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Draker has always had an issue with my choices in thermal protection... but I am sure everything else is being influenced by Marissa... I let her utilize my commercial permit when she was getting started and suddenly after I left Florida I became for best I can tell a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
The video he shared was a video I actually recorded to see why my 72's were at such drastic angles.. I know now it was the connection to the butt plate.. which actually is the problem with all my cylinders but I'm not going to change that until I change wings.
Hey Tim,
It?s been a few years since I have seen you around! You have been given some really good advice on this thread, and I know some of it can be hard to hear but the intentions I am reading are all to help you (even from Draker). I do hope you can take a step back, give it another read through (maybe even pretend it?s someone else they are talking too) and see that everyone is just trying to help you out in their own way.
If I were in your shoes I would use the money you are thinking about using for another set of tanks, to hire an instructor for a day or two to specifically help you get your rig set up and dialed in properly. Rent a second set of 85?s those days so you can maximize the time and not have to run off for fills.
I didn?t see the video, but looking at the picture that was posted, I would recommend at least 3-4 changes (including how you have the connection to the plate) but they would HAVE to happen in conjunction to get your tanks in the right spot. Seeing it in person there might be more with hoses etc. A good sidemount instructor would have at least as many if not more than what I see. Just changing that one thing with the butt-plate connection won?t be enough, and being lazy with your trim in an OW environment doesn?t effect how your tanks should overall be sitting, which is parallel to your body. With this configuration in perfect cave trim those tanks would still be too valve low and bottom high, and are likely sitting a bit further forward and push right on the middle of your bicep, correct? That creates drag, making it harder for you to swim them through the water than if they were properly set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
To answer this question, the answer would be both! I would seek out someone who understands all the rigs you are thinking about purchasing and can talk to you about the up and downsides of them for what you want to use them for. Then once you buy it, I would absolutely do a day or two with someone knowledgeable with that harness in your specific use application to get it set up properly. For example the prominent guy to go to to get an SMS100 set up for cave is not the same guy to go to for getting a razor set up. To one of Kelly?s points, once your properly set up you can easily switch between the same diameter tanks with very little to no mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Reading this and again sorry for my bluntness, but no you don?t know how to read a cave nor know where to be. If you are in the right position in the gallery the water flow will actually push you into the cave, towards the lips from the entrance. You can sit completely still, not finning, and still be moving into the cave. Swimming that hard and watching your pressure gage drop means you are in the wrong spot. Ken gave a great analogy about this and once you learn to read a cave you will find the same is true at Little River (and other caves) as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
No one (except maybe Draker) cares if your in a drysuit or a wetsuit, and I would still recommend at least a 3mm in a cave for several reasons besides thermal alone. However putting some dots together your probably working much harder swimming than most of the rest of us between drag and not reading the cave and trying to swim through the fire hydrant rather than letting it push you along, which just like working out in a gym generates a ton of heat and keeps you artificially warm. I?ve got my money on if you take the time with an instructor to get you properly set up and show you some of how to read a cave you will eventually get cold enough for at least a thicker wetsuit like the rest of us mere mortals.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Tara,Quote:
Originally Posted by TaraR
you are among the few who I actually do value opinions from (we have been if not diving together, in cave at the same time), my only issue with MOST of the posts here are they were redirected from a conversation about cylinders to my "ineptitude" as a side mount diver, pretty much driven by Draker. Although I do plan on getting away from the butt plate, I'd love to hear what you have to say about cylinder connection points to it, it might help in the interim.
No I don't know how to dive Ginnie, I've only done like 5 dives there in the 6 years since class, the ROI is not enough to warrant diving there because one dive and I spend 2 hours getting fills somewhere, one of the reasons I was looking at a 2nd set of cylinders.
Actually two people care about my not wearing a drysuit, but that doesn't matter. When I lived in CC, I weighed in at over 300lbs... I was a walking heater, I could spend 5 hours in the water , never getting out and I was fine. I have since lost weight and although I am still comfortable in 72 degree water my limit has definitely shortened. I am slowly progressing to wearing a drysuit most of my cave dives , but never open water. The problem there though is it is a big on me drysuit so there is definitely some drag happening when I wear it.
I am only looking at two possibilities on harness, xdeep and hollis K2, and I'm leaning pretty heavily to the K2. The plan was to get the new wing and then spend a day with an instructor on that unit, will probably happen end of summer though. And yes to the question about my cylinder placement, all my cylinders are butt high, valve low...even when pulled completely up under my arms... but I think we both agree the butt plate is driving that... the 72's are always going to be butt high.. but the 85's shouldn't be.
All in all I agree with 95% of what you said (and everyone else who has made similar posts) my only contention is all I was really asking for was the next best step in cylinder progression :)
I think you might need a full class. That said, to not distract too much from OP, most people do not get further in 95s than they do 85s.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I SOOOOO NEED to finish full cave... no argument there. Yeah, 95's are out... looking seriously at 104/108's. 95's I don't think would work just based on physical dimensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by grantctobin
A full sidemount class,* not a single day with an instructor. My error for the lack of clarity of intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
No, the butt plate is not the issue. You're not setting the tanks and the rig up correctly. Nothing is gonna change if you just gonna get a new rig.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
I think Olli/Nakatomi used the same rig you have and his tanks looked fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPGWezqUaAQ
I think bamafan was with him in the video.
I don't get why you're having such a hard time to take advice even though everybody is telling you the same thing.
because I DID NOT ASK... Draker started that topic... all I was looking for was what is the next best set of cylinders.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
However I am viewing your video because the way the cylinders lay has been bugging me for a while.
And if it were as simple as move your tank bands up 3" I would try it and that seems to be the thing I am pulling from the video. Mine are literally at the top of the boot... way lower than in the video... and please no comments about boots on cylinders.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Tim,
Regardless of how this conversation started, it is a conversation that needs to be had. I?ve watched you struggle for years with configuration, and as several others have said hiring someone to help you will be money well spent, and will lead to less frustration on your part and more enjoyable dives. Introducing larger tanks without having your rig set up properly will cause even more frustration, more drag, and more difficulty for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
The buttplate is not the problem, and I would strongly recommend leaving it on especially with steel tanks. I use a plate, and the diver in the video bent posted was also using the plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Like I said before there are a combination of things that need to change at the SAME TIME to get your tanks in the correct position. Yes, you need to move the tank bands much higher, however if you do that without tightening your bungees the valve will be allowed to sit lower below you than it does now exacerbating the valve low-butt high problem. Speaking of, your bungees are significantly too long, but if you only try to tighten them without also moving the bands you either won?t physically be able to get the tank attached on both ends, or if you do manage to get it on it will be jammed right up into the back of your arm.
Making those changes can also effect how you set up other parts of your rig, and with SM you have to think about multiple things at once when making changes. This is why hiring an instructor, either now or right after you buy a new wing, will be some of the best money on diving you have ever spent!
It is $10/day to rent a second set of cylinders. You probably spend close to that in gasoline while driving back and forth to go get the fill, besides the time wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Remove the rust traps! Your tanks will thank you!!Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
First, that is the plan...in fact I don't even plan on diving the new wing... I want to meet with whomever and pull it out of the package and start configuration there. Personally I didn't start "struggling" until last year when I got to spend a LOT of time in the water and realized there were issues with how my cylinders were laying. The struggle has been CDF drama, even while Heather and I were still cavern there were people claiming we were diving past the level of that cert. The problem with not living in Florida is every one wants to critic but not offer actual helpful suggestions. I've gotten more out of two posts with you than I've gotten out of dozens of threads across the last 5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaraR
Yeah after watching video I caught that the butt plate was still the connecting point, but I did miss that they were diving 120's which are a LOT taller... but I still need to move my bands up some I think. As far as my bungees, any shorter and I wouldn't be able to get them around my valves... literally I wouldn't even be able to get my thumbs into them, it is a bit easier when I'm not diving dry but I'm not worried about being a bit sloppy in openwater....and yes time with an instructor would help with that (yes its going to happen) I've had a couple of friends come down and go through cave class and I've seen some things that I want to change by watching them... not going to change it until new wing and time with instructor on it.
ok... I said NO COMMENTS ABOUT BOOTS :P
:) my tanks love their boots.. they get their yearly checkup and oddly 7 years and still no rust, still no line entrapment.. and as bad as its suggested I am in the water...that has to say something. Of course they never see salt either, hate that stuff.
Seriously Tara, TY.
I agree with most of the advise you have gotten in the above post. One thing I find totally unacceptable for a casual diver that wants to cave dive is ?I am not worried about being sloppy in open water ?. With the frequency you dive every dive must be a ?cave dive? in order to maintain some sort of current skill level. No you do not need to go in a cave every dive, but you can practice the skills in any water and that becomes your normal practice and you don?t need to adjust to the the environment when you go into a cave.
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You really have excuses for everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
when I'm playing... I'm playing... get used to it....Quote:
Originally Posted by zdiver