What happens with project data?

Printable View

02-08-2021 05:15 AM
bent

What happens with project data?

The other day I read an article somewhere about the RB80 and that it's supposedly the unit that was used to lay more line than any other RB (or however you wanna phrase it). AFAIK, lots of line in France was laid by the Brits and the Frenchies, hardly any EOLs where laid by EKPP (which are the ones that used to use the RB80).
That got me wondering about what happens to all the project data and how anyone can know how much exploration is actually being done. I'm under the impression that most data just stays with the person or group who laid the line.

When I was still allowed to dive one of the largest caves in Europe, one of the main exploration dudes showed me some sort of centerline map of that cave. Looked amazing. I guess that map had 10 km or more of line on there. The 'official' map is nowhere near as extensive. Now my question is, how would anyone know about this or any other projects unless you know the explorer of the cave or one of his buddies? So, would that mean if one of the explorers gets hit by a bus or the group leaves the hobby (which it seems happened to EKPP) the data is just lost? Is everything tracked in the States? Pretty sure in europe it's not.

As a reply I'm expecting at least one one-liner from Draker and Bob in this thread.

Also, everyone is allowed to answer even if you don't 100% agree with me on any given political topic.
02-08-2021 08:57 AM
LiteHedded

Quote:

Originally Posted by bent

The other day I read an article somewhere about the RB80 and that it's supposedly the unit that was used to lay more line than any other RB (or however you wanna phrase it). AFAIK, lots of line in France was laid by the Brits and the Frenchies, hardly any EOLs where laid by EKPP (which are the ones that used to use the RB80).
That got me wondering about what happens to all the project data and how anyone can know how much exploration is actually being done. I'm under the impression that most data just stays with the person or group who laid the line.

When I was still allowed to dive one of the largest caves in Europe, one of the main exploration dudes showed me some sort of centerline map of that cave. Looked amazing. I guess that map had 10 km or more of line on there. The 'official' map is nowhere near as extensive. Now my question is, how would anyone know about this or any other projects unless you know the explorer of the cave or one of his buddies? So, would that mean if one of the explorers gets hit by a bus or the group leaves the hobby (which it seems happened to EKPP) the data is just lost? Is everything tracked in the States? Pretty sure in europe it's not.

As a reply I'm expecting at least one one-liner from Draker and Bob in this thread.

Also, everyone is allowed to answer even if you don't 100% agree with me on any given political topic.

I can't speak to any of the other groups, but as far as the WKPP is concerned, the reports, data and maps are shared with the stakeholders at the state or with the relevant landowner.
This is also maintained by members of the team for posterity and future reference. Whether or not it is released publicly is decided on a case-by-case basis
02-08-2021 09:29 AM
Ben M

As a group Mexico is probably the best with at least limited sharing so it doesn't get lost.
02-08-2021 10:35 AM
floridabob

Sorry to disappoint, no one liner....yet.

I can only speak for KUR, but all the data is turned over to the state during the annual reporting process. We also publish the map of the system as it is updated which is generally after proper survey is completed including a drawing of the passageways. I will say that the sharing of the maps is currently informal in its schedule but we are working to get more structure and a warehouse where they can be sourced.

This poop takes time to coordinate with KUR being a volunteer organization but we have made progress. Wherever we decide to store it will not satisfy everyone but it will be accessible to all.

Bob

PS: I have provided several one liner options for Draker. I look forward to him picking his favorite.
02-08-2021 04:53 PM
OFG-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridabob

Sorry to disappoint, no one liner....yet.

This poop takes time to coordinate with KUR being a volunteer organization but we have made progress. Wherever we decide to store it will not satisfy everyone but it will be accessible to all.

Bob

PS: I have provided several one liner options for Draker. I look forward to him picking his favorite.

(Are the one liners exclusive for Draker? Hope not.)

You KUR guys have to co ordinate your pooping? Damn, no wonder its volunteer only.
02-08-2021 05:18 PM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Whether or not it is released publicly is decided on a case-by-case basis

I think all the information can be obtained via FOA from the state.
02-08-2021 05:28 PM
LiteHedded

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I think all the information can be obtained via FOA from the state.

Yea probably
02-08-2021 05:49 PM
Draker

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFG-1

You KUR guys have to co ordinate your pooping? Damn, no wonder its volunteer only.

This is often the most well executed pre dive procedure.
Kinda comical at times.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
02-08-2021 06:15 PM
jlcdvr

Paperwork

[QUOTE=Draker;365014]This is often the most well executed pre dive procedure.
Kinda comical at times.

Is there ?paperwork ? involved with that? Joel
02-08-2021 06:51 PM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Yea probably

Its true. I have a CD somewhere at the house that someone sent me with a ton a WKPP data, as well as some amusing George letters- amazing they saved that too.
02-09-2021 04:09 AM
Daedalus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Its true. I have a CD somewhere at the house that someone sent me with a ton a WKPP data, as well as some amusing George letters- amazing they saved that too.

https://i.ibb.co/gTT840W/yqugry85uio31.jpg

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
02-09-2021 05:17 AM
floridabob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker

This is often the most well executed pre dive procedure.
Kinda comical at times.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Pictures or it didn't happen.
02-10-2021 02:23 PM
bent

So KUR and WKPP were asked by some State agency to explore or do they just want the date since you got it anyways? I guess that's one of the advantages of having larger more organized projects... that you can get access more easily and the it's more likely that date gets published.
02-10-2021 07:53 PM
jason

Quote:

Originally Posted by bent

So KUR and WKPP were asked by some State agency to explore or do they just want the date since you got it anyways? I guess that's one of the advantages of having larger more organized projects... that you can get access more easily and the it's more likely that date gets published.

Projects in state parks and water management properties require permits for access. Reporting and data delivery are requirements of those permits.
02-11-2021 07:37 PM
floridabob

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason

Projects in state parks and water management properties require permits for access. Reporting and data delivery are requirements of those permits.

And it most certainly isn't defined as easy. Soo many hoops and much reporting. And there needs to be a purpose to every dive. Luckily, the state considers photo and video documentation as important.
02-12-2021 08:22 AM
cmck1

WKPP has an official Team Cartographer – Dr. John Rose. All source data is maintained and backed up with multiple copies. Data provided to State (DEP/FPS, DOT, FGS, Water Management Districts, FWS) and Federal (USFS, USFWS, DOI, USGS) agencies as requested or per the terms of any special use permits usually in the form of ArcGIS shape file packets or finished, copyrighted maps. Source data including notes, comments, statistics, images/video are generally not released to the public and for internal use only with summary data published as needed for articles or reports. Some data is specifically restricted from publication at the request of the landowner or agency. WKPP does release some statistical data to the NSS/NSS library during the annual reporting process and to Bob Gulden.

Florida Park Service Special Use Research Permits:
https://www.floridastateparks.org/ex...rch-collecting

Federal – refer to agency

Casey McKinlay
Project Director
Woodville Karst Plain Project
02-14-2021 07:21 AM
TaraR

Quote:

Originally Posted by bent

So KUR and WKPP were asked by some State agency to explore or do they just want the date since you got it anyways? I guess that's one of the advantages of having larger more organized projects... that you can get access more easily and the it's more likely that date gets published.

Generally no to being asked. No agency that I know of ever asks anyone to go get data. It?s more of a ?we are only going to give you access if you bring us back data? situation.

They have all been burned multiple times by giving individuals permits where they then treat it like their own private dive site for a year or two, turning in not one iota of data nor even a post-dive report to the permitting agency. As an individual applying it is a much harder hill to climb to get a permit now since others have not met the minimums, whereas the established groups like KUR or WKPP make it a point to turn in data and post-dive reports, and build the relationships necessary to maintain them.
02-15-2021 11:33 AM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaraR

.

They have all been burned multiple times by giving individuals permits where they then treat it like their own private dive site for a year or two, turning in not one iota of data nor even a post-dive report to the permitting agency. .

When new rules came out it was because permits were being abused by people and sites treated as personal dive sites for friends. The new rules did assure better definition of the processes and reporting of data. I gave up all my permits,but even up to the day I stopped I was frequently asked to be able to dive a site, even though they weren't on the roster or had a real reason. Important cave divers maintain high level of integrity with the permits and follow the real intent, otherwise we will find another set of rules/limitations. There have been some questioning of dives that only have a goal of checking lines, taking a picture , shooting video etc.
02-15-2021 01:13 PM
floridabob

There is a variety of reasons to conduct in water activities in regards to maintaining a permit. Science being one. Laying line and cartography two more. Checking lines being a key component to the start of diving activities. Photos and videos are products that stakeholders find appealing to the masses and complimentary to science, exploration and cartography. It is advantageous to permit holders to have a diversity of ways to further the State's agenda which will vary from site to site.

I hope all groups maintain their access to these sites through a cooperative and symbiotic relationship with the permitting authorities. There is no upside in anyone losing access.
02-15-2021 03:22 PM
bent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

When new rules came out it was because permits were being abused by people and sites treated as personal dive sites for friends. The new rules did assure better definition of the processes and reporting of data. I gave up all my permits,but even up to the day I stopped I was frequently asked to be able to dive a site, even though they weren't on the roster or had a real reason. Important cave divers maintain high level of integrity with the permits and follow the real intent, otherwise we will find another set of rules/limitations. There have been some questioning of dives that only have a goal of checking lines, taking a picture , shooting video etc.

It really sucks when you have to have a 'real reason' to dive though.

It's kind of understandable when people fake project work in order do dive some place they otherwise wouldn't be allowed to.
(Totally not thinking of the GUE 'project' in Mallorca a couple of years ago, which than was milked for facebook marketing material. cough cough)
02-15-2021 05:11 PM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridabob

I hope all groups maintain their access to these sites through a cooperative and symbiotic relationship with the permitting authorities. There is no upside in anyone losing access.

I agree. When someone doesn't foster this relationship, then it has an adverse effect on all legitimate efforts.