Details from Ginnie recovery 1/22/21 x

So I am simply copying and pasting the facts as they were told to me by someone involved who asked that I share some details. The point of the details is not to sensationalize the accident, but in hopes that people will understand how much work was involved in the recovery and the emotional stress and physical discomfort the recovery team endured. Also, hopefully it will quell people's questions enough that there will be more understanding (than we typically have) that it will take time for a full report to be put together. Based on conversations, I believe that the teams would prefer that the report be public and I think there is a good chance of that in this case. So let's all try not to speculate (though I know it's impossible not to) and be respectful of the family.
To the mods and anybody else involved in the recovery, if you're not comfortable with the current details being released, then please let me know. I was given this information by someone involved and asked to share it. I obviously don't have the OK from every single person involved, so if the others involved disagree with this being released, please take it down and remember I'm just the messenger. Here is the info:

I won't speculate on some things that we simply don't know, ex. was it medical? (the diver was in his late 50s), and i'll stick to facts.

Diver went in Wednesday, he had been collecting survey data in the new section, which you have to negotiate a stretch of approximately 500' of passage that is small and filled with clay, before passing through a sidemount only restriction.

The first team went in to try and locate him Thursday morning to search back to the rock on rock, the hope was that the diver went running for the door and was on the exit side. No sign of him.

Second team went in with sidemount CCR's and located him approximately at 5800'.

:blackbar1

Here is a gif of the section in question. I cant upload it here since its a gif so heres a link to it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uytl6lw0ag...%20AM.mov?dl=0


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Is it acceptable to train students without a hud?

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Is it acceptable to train students without a hud?

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Sidewinder doesn't come with a secondary as stock, so apparently

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Sidewinder doesn't come with a secondary as stock, so apparently

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I did not know that.

How monumentally idiotic!

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Sidewinder doesn't come with a secondary as stock, so apparently

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Sidewinder comes stock with two ports, the user can choose to order 1 or 2 cables (and plug the unused port if only 1). There's a lot of flexibility in how you can order from KISS, with choices of different connectors or hardwired solutions. If you have multiple units you can share a fischer computer between your breathers if you so choose.


I don't believe that there's a requirement for double monitoring for standard CCR classes (at least not with TDI), and there's a lot of people that dive two computers but only one monitoring cells.

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Sidewinder comes stock with two ports, the user can choose to order 1 or 2 cables (and plug the unused port if only 1). There's a lot of flexibility in how you can order from KISS, with choices of different connectors or hardwired solutions. If you have multiple units you can share a fischer computer between your breathers if you so choose.


I don't believe that there's a requirement for double monitoring for standard CCR classes (at least not with TDI), and there's a lot of people that dive two computers but only one monitoring cells.

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I took the sw class, but didn't buy one. The unit I used was brand new from Kiss and only had a single monitor set up as far as I can remember. I thought the stock ones only came with once connection unless you ask for an additional. I could be wrong though. Either way single monitoring is acceptable in classes

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I took the sw class, but didn't buy one. The unit I used was brand new from Kiss and only had a single monitor set up as far as I can remember. I thought the stock ones only came with once connection unless you ask for an additional. I could be wrong though. Either way single monitoring is acceptable in classes

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You can order it without any cables, you have to specify what you want and if you don't specify, you don't get anything.

What's the golden rule of ccr diving?

Always know your po2.

If it's not within eyesight, you don't know it.

They sell motorcycle without helmets, doesn't make it smart to ride without one.

Diving without a hud is a deadly hubris.

Give me a break. If you're not competant enough to look at your wrist on a manual ccr then don't dive a rebreather but leave those off us alone who don't feel the need to have a an expensive gadget hanging off the loop in our face. po2 does not magically change in an instant. You should already know what it's at before looking.

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Sidewinder divers should rethink the use of O2 inline shut offs.

Gabe

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Originally Posted by rob191

Give me a break. If you're not competant enough to look at your wrist on a manual ccr then don't dive a rebreather but leave those off us alone who don't feel the need to have a an expensive gadget hanging off the loop in our face. po2 does not magically change in an instant. You should already know what it's at before looking.

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That?s an arrogant response without knowing all the details. You probably don?t need seatbelts in your car either huh? I?d refrain from commenting until the full report is released.

I?m all for letting people dive how they want to dive, and not having a HUD certainly doesn?t seem like the root cause, but what is the harm in having one? I don?t see a benefit for not having some sort of HUD unless you?re just cheap, and I believe somewhere high on the list of the rules of CCR diving is: Don?t be cheap.


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Please take this down while the widow, family, and recovery team have time to process what transpired. There will likely be a report from this one so that proper accident analysis can occur. That said the day after the recovery is not the time.

Whoever gave you the info does not speak for the rest of the recovery team. Know that many of us will want a report to come out of this.

Regards,
Frank

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Originally Posted by ghost

Please take this down while the widow, family, and recovery team have time to process what transpired. There will likely be a report from this one so that proper accident analysis can occur. That said the day after the recovery is not the time.

Whoever gave you the info does not speak for the rest of the recovery team. Know that many of us will want a report to come out of this.

Regards,
Frank

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If the mods want to pull it then ask them to pull it. I?m sure if multiple recovery divers want this removed they can message a mod directly and ask to take it down. This is direct from someone on the team. And the purpose for asking me to release the info was to try to quell the onslaught of gross speculation and online/social media mania thaf usually happens in the cave diving community after these things occur. So far I actually think its working as the usual mob doesnt seem as mobby this time.
I dont know who you are based on you only posting your first name, so I?m jnot sure if you?re a recovery diver or not. If you are then petition the mods and ask team members who agree with you to petition them as well. It wont bother me as I?m just the messenger asked to deliver the info.


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I was one of the recovery divers. Whoever gave you the info didn’t get the rest of the team’s permission, and you said in your initial post that you would take this down if asked by a team member.

So, please take this down.

Regards,
Frank McNamara

:popcorn

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Originally Posted by ghost

I was one of the recovery divers. Whoever gave you the info didn’t get the rest of the team’s permission, and you said in your initial post that you would take this down if asked by a team member.

So, please take this down.

Regards,
Frank McNamara

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Thanks fior clarifying Frank, I wasn't sure if that was you or not. I'm not a mod, so I can't, but they are free to take it down. I will argue that the response to this death has been better than most, and I believe as your team mate had hoped, sharing minor details to appease people's curiosity is actually working to quell the fervor for information.

Thanks for taking part in the recovery. It's not something I would ever want to subject myself to, so I thank all who helped. I never would have posted these details had I not been directly contacted to do so. This isn't an effort to be the "spoiler" of the news or to take away from the work everyone did. I think people knowing how serious and difficult this recovery was is a testament to the work everyone did to give the family peace. Probably one of the few times cave divers actually come together rather than being petty.

I agree that there’s something to be learned from this and I will push for a later report as best I can but the day after the recovery is not the time. Mods please take this down.

I was thankful for the post and thought it was well written and unbiased. Sorry the one person is upset about it.
Sad event for the family and the recovery team. Thankful they got him and for all their hard work. Mentally and physically.


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Originally Posted by ghost

I agree that there’s something to be learned from this and I will push for a later report as best I can but the day after the recovery is not the time. Mods please take this down.

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Moderator comment: No rule has been violated and the discussion is civil. Your comment is push for a later report, which historically that will be quite awhile,because I think we are pending something from the last two accidents. I understand the stress of doing a recovery, because I have done a couple,but if this is too much which I can appreciate, you may want to be a distant observer.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Moderator comment: No rule has been violated and the discussion is civil. Your comment is push for a later report, which historically that will be quite awhile,because I think we are pending something from the last two accidents. I understand the stress of doing a recovery, because I have done a couple,but if this is too much which I can appreciate, you may want to be a distant observer.

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I sent Forrest a message letting him know thAt you guys are free to remove this theead or not as you deem appropriate. I?m sure he will share the details of my message to him with all of the mods (or at least he?s welcome to)


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rddvet -- Thank you for the original post. You simply stated facts as they were given to you by someone involved in the recovery. I found it quite informative and it helped answer some of the questions that were going through my mind since this horrible accident, especially since he was a friend and I had just spoken with him last Sunday in the water at Ginnie. This is not the time for people not involved in the recovery to speculate on what may or may not have happened. This is the time to grieve for the deceased, his family, and his friends. Hopefully, the investigation will be able to answer a lot of the issues around this tragedy so that the cave diving community can learn from it.

Thank you to all of the members of the recovery team. It was a difficult and dangerous recovery that all of you were willing to make for our fellow diver and his family. God bless you all.

Doug

I have to agree with Frank - i am not sure it is a good time to start an on line discussion... even all of us, who spent last two days on the site and were working on recovery, do not have a clear idea and all the details... and without having all and every minute detail discussion turns into speculation and gossip. It was a fairly tough job for us, and i am sure that family is going through a rather hard time right now. I think we that cave diving community can wait a bit to get more info.

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Originally Posted by ghost

There will likely be a report from this one so that proper accident analysis can occur. That said the day after the recovery is not the time.

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We hear this statement every time there's an accident and sadly the reports never come. Proper accident analysis requires a certain amount of transparency to understand what happened. The recovery team typically has the most accurate information but is frequently asked to remain silent. In this case, there's a very specific lesson to be learned that could save lives and there's no reason to delay the release of this information. Moreover, the family deserves to know the details, if they don't already, since it may help ease their suffering.

I would have to agree with Kirill and Frank. Now is not the time. While Charlie has a good point due to the fact that there definitely are things to be learned from this incident, right now is not the best time to start. There is still an active police investigation going on and there are family members from out of town that may not yet have all the facts. Those family members may also be cave divers and reading this forum. Furthermore the facts are not all accurate. While mostly they are, the monitor was not dead. The battery had drained between the time the forensics team found the victim and the first extraction team arrived in the passage. I am merely clarifying this to point out that if in fact family is reading, what has been stated as facts are not all correct and it would suck to give misinformation to loved ones.
I?m sure a report will be released. If it is not in a timely manner I will post what I know. It will not be before law enforcement has closed their case.
In the meantime, just remember this. It?s just a hole in the ground.

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Originally Posted by farmerted

I would have to agree with Kirill and Frank. Now is not the time.

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We'll have to agree to disagree. If the family is reading this forum, they are looking for information, which I truly hope has not been withheld or delayed. Of all people, they deserve to know the facts surrounding this incident as soon as they are known. There is no active police investigation in the traditional sense. They aren't questioning witnesses or tracking down leads. They will defer to the medical examiner's report and close the case in due time.

As you mention, the facts released so far are incomplete. What's needed is a public release compiling the relevant facts and observations from the first few teams similar to what was released after the dual fatality at Eagles Nest. Details regarding the recovery itself are not relevant.

Thank you to the recovery team. My heartfelt condolences to the family and friends.
Barbara

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Originally Posted by farmerted

In the meantime, just remember this. It's just a hole in the ground.

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Thanks Ted. A lot of people forget this.

My condolences to all, my gratitude to the recovery team. Stay safe.

Thank you for posting some information. I think every accident is a learning opportunity for all of us. If I am ever unfortunate enough to have an accident while cave diving, I hope all information is posted quickly, and I hope someone can learn something from it.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Moderator comment: No rule has been violated and the discussion is civil. Your comment is push for a later report, which historically that will be quite awhile,because I think we are pending something from the last two accidents. I understand the stress of doing a recovery, because I have done a couple,but if this is too much which I can appreciate, you may want to be a distant observer.

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Right on, Kelly! rddvet's information is very much appreciated. I see no disrespect in the thread towards the deceased, his family, recovery team, equipment manufacturer, etc.

If someone else is asking you to post this in place of them rddvet it should be pretty obvious they shouldn't be talking about it and that neither of you have permission to post this stuff...
And if you have to question in your own post whether or not to post this thread that should've been 3 red flags.
The fact that the moderators wont take it down because it doesn't break any rules but breaks any and all morals is pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by Fastest1

If someone else is asking you to post this in place of them rddvet it should be pretty obvious they shouldn't be talking about it and that neither of you have permission to post this stuff...
And if you have to question in your own post whether or not to post this thread that should've been 3 red flags.
The fact that the moderators wont take it down because it doesn't break any rules but breaks any and all morals is pretty sad.

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I disagree as there are people on the team (I won’t attempt to say how many since someone will try n disagree) that think the info should be discussed as soon as possible but they are stopped from doing so because they’ll potentially be dismissed from the team.
I received a couple of negative messages last night about this thread. The fact that your avatar says this is your first post makes me suspicious you’re one of those people with a new account. Doesn’t matter either way. I’ve had many more ask me to thank the person who requested this posted.
Removing the thread to not upset people has been discussed in depth with the mods. Whatever they decide to do is up to them. IMO this is one of the most civil discussions about a death in a while with much less speculation than typical. I haven’t petitioned anyone to keep this up and actually the opposite is true.

Thanks for posting information on the Ginnie incident. I've never understood why people want to withhold info and silence others. Accident analysis is super important and nothing you posted was disrespectful of the deceased or recovery divers.

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Originally Posted by farmerted

I would have to agree with Kirill and Frank. Now is not the time. While Charlie has a good point due to the fact that there definitely are things to be learned from this incident, right now is not the best time to start. There is still an active police investigation going on and there are family members from out of town that may not yet have all the facts. Those family members may also be cave divers and reading this forum. Furthermore the facts are not all accurate. While mostly they are, the monitor was not dead. The battery had drained between the time the forensics team found the victim and the first extraction team arrived in the passage. I am merely clarifying this to point out that if in fact family is reading, what has been stated as facts are not all correct and it would suck to give misinformation to loved ones.
I?m sure a report will be released. If it is not in a timely manner I will post what I know. It will not be before law enforcement has closed their case.
In the meantime, just remember this. It?s just a hole in the ground.

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He did say the monitor was dead , possibly from the battery


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Originally Posted by UCFKnightDiver

Thanks for posting information on the Ginnie incident. I've never understood why people want to withhold info and silence others. Accident analysis is super important and nothing you posted was disrespectful of the deceased or recovery divers.

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It’s funny. The people who sent me the most unpleasant messages expressing their unhappiness with details being released are the same people who immediately text all the gory details of other incidents to their inner circle of friends but keep quiet if you’re not their buddy. They’re too clueless to realize that their “friends” then tell everybody they know (including me) and then the game of telephone starts where more and more misinformation and speculation starts. I’ve known all the details of all of the major incidents in the past 7 years immediately all due to the people who now want this thread closed because they can’t keep their mouths shut themselves.

Thank you for the information. It has reduced the anxiety for me and my wife who are both beginning divers studying towards cave certification. The fact that the diver was doing some "extreme" things far beyond an intro dive (sidemount, silty passage, exploration, rebreather, etc...) helps us to understand why an incident occurred.

As someone who thinks 6K in small stuff isn't really that far back, and dives a sidewinder much deeper and longer than this dive, I would be very interested to ultimately find out what oxygen addition method was being used (needle, or factory, or other), what display was being use (NERD, Shearwater Wrist, or other HUD, or multiples) and if the display died during the dive or not (which we may never know.) A whole lot of people are getting into the sidewinder as their first rebreather because it is inexpensive, and easy to learn to dive and maintain a good sidemount profile with minimal training, unlike many other units. Knowing this, if we start seeing more fatalities on this unit, now is the time to change the training and social mindset around it. Right now, many people (including myself) espouse mechanical simplicity at the expense of redundancy, with the understanding that if something fails, immediate bailout to OC is easy and warranted, as the Sidewinder allows for carrying both OC bottles. The "recover the loop" mindset is less prevalent with this unit, because it is so close to diving regular sidemount. Of course, semi-closed is taught, but I would wager that few people actually continue to practice it as dive objective after training, with the preference to bail OC. The real problem is that fully manual CC diving is harder. There is no cushion if you get caught up with your camera, or survey gear. I will admit that I more than once have let my loop O2 get down to less than .2 on a manual rebreather (rEVO) and caught it, busy doing other things, usually near the surface, wearing a NERD. It happens. People with non-manual addition never get to this without a malfunction. The great price point of the KISS, puts the KISS machines in the hands of the people least prepared to deal with a manual addition, the first time rebreather diver, excited by the sudden new lack of time pressure at depth or distance. Despite all the pontification from dive instructors in the last week on the need for a HUD (I don't disagree) it may not necessarily have made a difference. Divers get busy behind the lens or the book, and lose track of their PO2. It's going to happen to everyone sooner or later, and some people wont talk about it, and some people who don't dive manual may never see it happen. Should some of this turn out to be prescient, my recommendation to new KISS divers is that you do opt for a NERD as your primary, or only, if you wish to go that way, and always stay afraid of the machine. That manual addition can and will fail you, and it will be your fault, and always when you least expect it. Be careful about getting task loaded with a manual addition rebreather.

I'm a "newer" sidewinder diver, first rebreather, and have been in the vicinity of this incident in ginnie. We did hours of scr in sidewinder training. People on here are saying there should be no o2 shutoff, that makes me wonder if they have a clue what they are talking about or have ever even dove a manual ccr or why they are even commenting. o2 shutoff is required for scr which can get you out of numerous bad situations (lost visibility, disabled computer, bad o2 cells, ran out of o2) without wasting precious gas. Maybe some people only do scr in training and never later think about it but that is ridiculous. I view it as a required life saving skill. And I can say that having done so much of it, it takes A VERY LONG TIME for your po2 to go from 1.20 down to death. You really have to be paying no attention whatsoever to the unit. You have to not notice that the o2 isn't making noise going through the system. You have to not notice that there is less gas filling your lungs with each breath (unless for some reason you weren't on minimum loop volume). You have to not notice red flashing on the computer and any audible alarm that was set (ted already said that the computer was functioning and only later died between the first sighting of the diver and the recovery). I turn my o2 off all the time. I turn it off simply because my po2 is higher than I want and I don't feel like wasting gas through my nose to fix it so I turn it off until it drops then turn it back on. I've forgotten it was off many times but only for 0.1 po2 or less because it just takes that long to go down unless you're changing depths in which case your eyes would be on that computer anyway.

This screams task loading and complacency to me not gear and training issue. Unless there was a silt out and o2 was off while doing scr and an incorrect number of breaths was used allowing o2 to drop too low in which case it could be a training issue or lack of practicing emergency procedures often enough. Unfortunately task loading and complacency gets to us all eventually and is a part of the sport so if that was indeed the issue, it says nothing bad about the diver involved and is just a reminder to us all that we need to fight to not let it happen to us but unfortunately in any "extreme sport", complacency can and does kill.

Also, we're all having discussions on hypoxia and huds and o2 shutoffs which probably has people pretty confused since no details concerning those things have been officially posted related to this incident only where the diver was and that bailout was intact.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

Thank you for the information. It has reduced the anxiety for me and my wife who are both beginning divers studying towards cave certification. The fact that the diver was doing some "extreme" things far beyond an intro dive (sidemount, silty passage, exploration, rebreather, etc...) helps us to understand why an incident occurred.

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If this was rebreather related, it could have happened anywhere. Doesn't have to be far from the entrace or silty.

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Originally Posted by rchrds

... and if the display died during the dive or not (which we may never know.)

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Here you go.

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Originally Posted by farmerted

... the monitor was not dead. The battery had drained between the time the forensics team found the victim and the first extraction team arrived in the passage.

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Why is the second 1/2 of the report missing in the original post?

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Originally Posted by rob191

Give me a break. If you're not competant enough to look at your wrist on a manual ccr then don't dive a rebreather but leave those off us alone who don't feel the need to have a an expensive gadget hanging off the loop in our face. po2 does not magically change in an instant. You should already know what it's at before looking.

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I went back to look for posts concerning the content of initial report and I'm very surprised this post here didn't get more opposition. And 14 people liked it? I don't understand that.
Don't you guys realise that each and every one of you can get distracted? We all screw up sooner or later. In the past, people have died due to not noticing a drop in ppo2!

rob191, IMHO you are playing a dangerous game when shutting of o2 without a HUD. You and all the people who agree with you should really that some time to reconsider this. A HUB is a safety feature.

Lots of people wanna talk about what can or could be learned but this is completely ignored. I do not understand why. I hope at least some instructors with influence at some training agency talk and think about this.

Not trying to piss anyone off or stirr the pot, but I really think that point didn't get the attention it should have gotten.

If I was so concerned with being unable to check my display and monitor my po2 while diving which is my primary job as a manual ccr diver that I felt I needed to have it right in my face... Perhaps even a brain implant? Then I think it would be time to hang up my fins and join your elite group of internet divers instead and follow my oath to turn the forum into a place that resembles the Facebook group for my 80 year old neighbors running the hoa. Full of bickering and nonsense about nothing and deterring any real cave divers away who might otherwise have useful comments to add to topics.

A useful argument for a hud is the redundant cabling to the cells because fisher cables are crap and will kill you, not because we all need instruments in our faces.

Not to stir the pot.

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Originally Posted by rob191

If I was so concerned with being unable to check my display and monitor my po2 while diving which is my primary job as a manual ccr diver that I felt I needed to have it right in my face... Perhaps even a brain implant? Then I think it would be time to hang up my fins and join your elite group of internet divers instead and follow my oath to turn the forum into a place that resembles the Facebook group for my 80 year old neighbors running the hoa. Full of bickering and nonsense about nothing and deterring any real cave divers away who might otherwise have useful comments to add to topics.

A useful argument for a hud is the redundant cabling to the cells because fisher cables are crap and will kill you, not because we all need instruments in our faces.

Not to stir the pot.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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People get distracted even exceptionally well trained experienced divers. To think that theres no way it could happen to you is a farce.

I would never dive an mccr without a secondary monitor, esp a hud. I did once and hated it. I think in 10 years the industry may look back on slide shutoffs for oxygen on rebreathers and realize its a little dangerous.

We?ve all got different opinions on it, but to assume it cant happen to you is foolish.

And why when people dont agree with each ither the go to comment is to call them internet divers to shut them up. I dive almost weekly to every other week, but when I?ve got down time at work I post here and sb. So you can call me an internet diver if you want, but please stop using it as a lame way to shut people up.


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If you are not getting the attention you clearly require on the forums then please go diver to diver at the caves and start disseminating this useful information. If people don't want to listen to it you can ask them why not in person.
I've created a pamphlet to get you started
Attachment 22396

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Originally Posted by rob191

If you are not getting the attention you clearly require on the forums then please go diver to diver at the caves and start disseminating this useful information. If people don't want to listen to it you can ask them why not in person.
I've created a pamphlet to get you started
Attachment 22396

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Good talk. Way to be open to the thoughts and opinions of others and trying to learn. I?ll add you to the ever growing list of douchey cave divers. You can log off for good now since you think its stupid to post on forums.


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We all heard your thoughts already but the 2 of you feel the need to comment incessantly on every. Single. Thread. You did not just say thanks for the info this issue reinforced my belief that I should continue to use a hud. Instead you are on some mission to modify the way everyone else dives and impose on our freedoms to choose how to dive for ourselves. You've raised your concern, we heard it. Some agree some don't. It doesn't require further discussion. If you find a lot of people being "douches" and calling the 2 of you "internet divers" then maybe they are sick of the nonstop posts which largely are unhelpful, just a thought.

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Edit:
Nevermind. Theres no point in continuing the discussion woth you

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Originally Posted by rob191

If I was so concerned with being unable to check my display and monitor my po2 while diving which is my primary job as a manual ccr diver that I felt I needed to have it right in my face... Perhaps even a brain implant? Then I think it would be time to hang up my fins and join your elite group of internet divers instead and follow my oath to turn the forum into a place that resembles the Facebook group for my 80 year old neighbors running the hoa. Full of bickering and nonsense about nothing and deterring any real cave divers away who might otherwise have useful comments to add to topics.

A useful argument for a hud is the redundant cabling to the cells because fisher cables are crap and will kill you, not because we all need instruments in our faces.

Not to stir the pot.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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So then what's your explanation as to why victims have been found with a hypoxic loops? It's seems to me that those people did not notice the drop. It's not the first time that has happened. You must be just better than them. I'd love to hear an explanation from a 'real cave diver'.

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Originally Posted by rob191

You've raised your concern, we heard it. Some agree some don't. It doesn't require further discussion.

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You may have heard it but you don't seem to understand. All you've done here is attacking... well, you've been flailing.

The no-HUD croud might just be too cheap... but nobody wants to hear that either.

crowd not croud

Removed this post as it did not pertain to this thread.


Jay

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Originally Posted by dougchappell

This was an Open Circuit accident.

God Bless Andrew, his wife and family.

Dive More, Post Less.

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was it? Would be nice if we had official confirmation of that. I've heard rumors and conjecture.

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Originally Posted by dougchappell

This was an Open Circuit accident.

God Bless Andrew, his wife and family.

Dive More, Post Less.

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This wasn't Andrew...

Please make sure you're posting in the correct thread.

NSS posted the report from this incident today too. I dont remember seeing it before


https://nsscds.org/accident-analysis/

...