I just got bad news about Gennie today, any news?
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I just got bad news about Gennie today, any news?
What happened??
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Missing diver supposedly far back and also supposedly missing since last night. One of the dove shops closed early to allow for rescue/recovery. I’m sure more details will be out in a few days.
Any details? Solo Diver?
Knowing you, I know your question is due to a concern for a buddy and the impact to that buddy. Details will trickle out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ericfine50
bob
I am sure details will come out when it is the proper time. The family will need to know first etc.. I know it is hard to be patient. Sad
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I won't hold my breath on any details coming out, they never seem to anymore. I'm sure we'll get the basics, but I doubt an accident report will ever be published...Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Gilchrist County Sheriff's Office
1 hr ?
Friday January 22, 2021
1300 Hrs.
*Gilchrist County Sheriff’s Office Press Release*
On Thursday January 21, 2021 at approximately 1130 hours the Gilchrist County Sheriff’s Office was notified of a missing underwater diver in the NE quadrant of Gilchrist County. Gilchrist County Sheriff’s Office, in cooperation International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery, is attempting to locate the missing diver. If anyone should come in contact with personnel associated with this search, please stay clear of the area. No further information is being released at this time until more details can be confirmed by law enforcement. There is no danger associated with this missing person to the general public. Further information will be released as it pertains this investigation when it is available and is appropriate.
So sad.
Are they allowing regular divers or is it closed for diving.
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I found this question hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Why? I know someone who wants to come down to dive Ginnie. That is why I asked. I was not sure if the whole system is off limits or what. Sorry I have not been to Ginnie when someone died or was being recovered I would assume (yes assume) it would be closed off .Quote:
Originally Posted by floridabob
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Closed today. Idk about tomorrowQuote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
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Thank you. I will let my friend know.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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Id lean to skipping ginnie a few days to be safe. Plus ya know. Bad juju there right now if you believe in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
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I would think things will be back to normal Saturday morning. The recovery team are seasoned professionals when it comes to these delicate matters.
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That and respectQuote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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I wouldn?t jump to that conclusion. I?d bet money Ginnie will potentially be closed tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by DogDiver
Details have been shared to the Incidents and Accidents forum
And now the details are gone. There was nothing in rddvet's post that was disrespectful to the deceased or recovery divers. I've never understood those who want to keep information from others and silence individuals. Who are you protecting? This sport, hobby, whatever you want to call it was in part built upon accident analysis. By keeping information from others you prevent others from learning and make the sport more dangerous in my opinion.
Don’t blame the mods. I was asked to have the mods take it down. The person who passed along the information got some negative commentary from a small few and rather than it turn into a this group vs that group argument, decided to take it down. The post obviously did it’s job of dispelling speculation by feeding the usual angry mod an appetizer. I will be honest. The grand majority of people appreciated the posting. A very small number messaged me their concerns (and not in the most polite way). It’s funny there’s still a good ole boys club mentality of it’s ok for our friends to hear every single detail from us but if someone else posts it it’s no ok. That seems to be a lot of what it boils down but they veil it in the cloak of concern for the family.Quote:
Originally Posted by UCFKnightDiver
I've said it before and will say it again, the absolute worst thing in this community are the stickers from Amigos that say "Dive More, Post Less". It creates nonsense like this. "Dive More, Post More"... Unfortunately that same group of people are the ones that truly believe in the sticker as it stands today and it is what feeds these firesQuote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Well at least most people got to read it before it was removed. There is always Scuba Board and FB. It was posted there too
Thank you for the information and your attempt
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I think you and Tom, Richard and some others are spinning this. Who says the details are gone for good? None does. You guys don't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by UCFKnightDiver
Put yourself in position of the recovery divers. You basically just got out of the water after you had to get a body (likely of someone you knew) out of the cave. Now, you haven't even dried off and already you are being bugged by a pack of vultures that DEMAND details NOW. So they can talk about it on the internet. Really? If I was a one of the recovery divers, I'd be livid. For crying out loud, if there is no information in 3 month you guys can ##### and moan all you want and you would at least have somewhat of a point.
What do you guys need to info for NOW and why can't you wait another 2 weeks?
For instance, in the EN accident with the two JJ diver and the tow germans in Mx, there was lots of info released. Just not the day after.
If anyone wants to talk accident analysis, you can open up a thread about CCR HUDs or whatever and talk about what could have happened in a situation like that.
That's quite the accusation, don't you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
So you actually expect one of the divers to get out of the water and get on the internet straight away to write a report so you and other can chitchat about it on facebook etc? Let's not kid ourselfs here, accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook.
Besides, from most accidents there is not much to learn. In most cases I'm aware of there was either a rule broken or someone made a mistake that we all know was a possibility. Odds are that there is no great big secret people want to hide.
Usually I very much agree with what you post, Rich. But here I think you're way off.
Edit: I wanna know what happened too. I can wait though.
It is completely fair to expect what was posted within 24 hours of a recovery, yes. What it does is keep the discussions somewhat on track instead of veering way off into wild speculation. The discussions on facebook and scubaboard now are about HUD's, which wouldn't be happening if that post wasn't made. They are healthy discussions for the most part and are getting a lot of people to step back and look at what they do and some may change their stance. That is a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
If accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook for cave diving accidents, where is it done? The IUCRR certainly isn't doing it any more *specifically trying to pretend some incidents never happened*, the agencies aren't doing it any more, the manufacturers have never done it, so where is it done if not by the community?
If a rule was broken, then we need to be talking about why it was broken. Is the rule antiquated? Was it taught properly? Should it be emphasized more? Should the "why" behind the "what" or "how" be redefined so others aren't apt to break it?
On the details being gone for good, there are still several IUCRR recoveries that do not have reports out, from YEARS ago. Those details never materialized. History says if they are trying to sweep it away, they will. We are moaning now because there are a ton of incidents that never have reports filed by the IUCRR or have reports that aren't filed properly because it doesn't fit the narrative. If they're muzzling him now, I fear that this is one that will end up on that same path.
This? You think this is the "ABSOLUTE WORST THING" in the cave diving community?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
WOW.
Just....wow.
I'll say it a little differently. For the past 7 years that I've been in cave country I have found out every gritty detail of every major incident in less than 24 hours. The reason I find out that info is that there's always somebody that tells that info to their "friends". But they don't realize their friends can't keep it quiet and it spreads like wildfire and text chains start along with lots of speculation. In every single case I have direct knowledge of who the people that blabbed the initial facts first are. I can tell you that the people who vocally and semi-rudely tried to bend my arm to take this post down because of "concern over the family and friends" are the exact same people I know for a fact run their mouths to their "inner circle." Don't mistake that I'm saying these are recovery divers discussing it with other recovery divers. I am saying these are recovery divers/support team members who as soon as they have access to their phones fill their friends in with all the gory details. Not to move accident analysis forward, but because they want their buddies to know. People may not like to hear it, but its cold hard fact. If you're not privy to these conversations and details you may not understand it. I never go searching for details, but they always seem to fall into my lap. The ole boys club mentality is still alive and well. If you're in the inner circle you get the deets.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
So my issue is why are the people who run their mouth to their friends suddenly upset that I posted the details I was asked to post? What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander in their eyes I guess.
I
Except information was posted and now it has been taken down. No one was hounded, in fact rddvet specifically said one of the recovery divers asked him to post information. Who's spinning? I don't think it's me. As others have said, many times details never come out. If not now, when is appropriate? In your mind, why are the details that were posted not appropriate now but will be in a few weeks?Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
I don't know where you're getting this from. You sound like you think the recovery divers owe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
I'm happy if I can get details on accidents directly from the recovery divers. I also very much appreciate when I can read a report and/or analysis by a recovery diver, like the one from the calimba accident.
You're not entitled to get a report and neither am I. And you are certainly not entitled to get a report within 24 hours after.
Maybe they wanna be left alone for a few days? I wouldn't wanna report to you right after a body recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
if they are reporting to their friends and starting the rumor mill, then the IUCRR should have an official channel that they post to when something like this happens. I knew what happened around the time that rddvet did, so did many others, but if they want to stop the rumor and speculation, then the IUCRR should have someone post on their website or facebook page or whatever once. That post would look very similar to what was posted originally and end with "further details to come". This stops any pressure on the recovery divers directly and is an official post from the group that pulled the diver out. Really easy for the organization to do and would stop this kind of nonsense. I've done body recoveries, it's not fun, it's really not fun when you know the guy, but at the same time, the divers have to file everything that happened, so someone like a media coordinator would write a quick blurb. I'm not asking the divers to post it, it's not their job, I'm asking the IUCRR to do it because it is theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
I apparently missed this post, but saw your others. You can go back and look, I have never once said I think info needs to come out in a specific time frame or even soon. I don't really care because I get every little bitty detail sent to me without asking. I have no dog in the fight as to when the info should come out. I do have issue with the fact that details never seem to become public knowledge for people to learn from at some point, and there really isn't any accident analysis. The main issue I have is the recovery divers can't seem to get things straight within themselves. Every single incident someone runs their mouth(almost always the same couple of people) and their buddies know the details. But when one of the recovery divers feels it should be public, those same people who constantly blab the details suddenly have an issue with it. And they veil it under concern for the family. If that was true then they should be caring enough not to blab to their buddies to begin with. There's alot of talking out of both sides of their mouths. This isn't meant to be derogatory to all of the recovery divers. They garner my respect. This is specifically about the few who can't keep quiet to their friends, but don't want anybody else to know. I don't mean this as a slight to you but I have no other way to say it. You don't live in cave country and are far from local, so it's hard to understand unless your around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Yes, people gossip. I think farmerted(?) said that what was said about the monitor was not correct, which leads me to believe that your source might not have the full picture. I think farmerted also said that he will report what he knows if there is no report released after police closes the chase. That sound good to me and it think it's reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Eitherway, I don't think it's too much to ask to let it rest for a couple of weeks. I mean, if you wanna complain about the same stuff in 6 week, I'm with you. But not now.
@UCFKnightDiver, you guys act like the details were gone for good. That part is spin. You can't possibly know that.
I was one of the people who asked that the thread be closed. I did not send any nasty messages or anything. To me there was a good reason for it. The deceased spouse is also a cave diver. They were not in town. This person had also not been told much at the time. Why I do not know. Is it too much to ask to wait a few days or a week? Part of the process of doing recoveries is to gather forensic data. This information is then used to discover what happened. When the extraction has been completed the recovery divers are asked not to share the details outside of the team until the investigation has been finished. This stems from the law enforcement side I would guess. I?m not saying I agree with any of this, but that is what was asked of me. Now we have one of the team ask someone to post the facts so they remain anonymous. The reason is to get the details out to save lives. The anonymity is so that the team member does not want to get kicked off the team? Really? Personally I don?t care if I ever do another recovery. They should have just posted it directly. For what it?s worth, I don?t know who it was and don?t care.
So now I am a good ole boy and am hiding behind the cloak of protecting the family because I?m hoarding the information in secrecy. Thanks. What a conspiracy this is. I don?t agree with anyone withholding information about these instances. In my post I did say that if nothing was put out in a timely manner that I would post what I know and I will. All I asked for was that the thread be taken down as then was not the time. It could have waited a few days. An accident report is not needed to talk about hypoxia and huds and such. Just start a thread about it.
Last Friday. I got to go in a cave for 5 hours. During that dive, I had to work hard. While you try your best not to, you will see their face. That face was someone I knew and liked. He was a friend. I did this for the sake of his family so they could have closure. I don?t want to talk about it for a little bit. Someone else does? Fine. Don?t hide behind anonymity. I merely asked for the thread to be closed as it was too soon. Cant things wait a few days? In this day and age, we have become accustomed to instant gratification. I believe this has led to a decline in self control. There is much we can learn from this incident. Waiting a short period changes nothing. Please have some respect.
Ted McCoy
386-292-9936
I think you're putting words in my mouth. My issue is with the pervasive and in my mind detrimental mindset of withholding information about these incidents and silencing others that speak out in general that is common amongst the cave diving community and is evidenced by many past examples some of which have been provided. You also didn't answer my questions. If the information that has been shared thus far is not appropriate now, then when is it appropriate? Why is that information more appropriate in a few weeks?Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Ted, my comments were in no way directed to you or meant as a dig at you or any of the other recovery divers who are professional and act like adults. My comments were about a specific few who love to be the ones that spread the gossip, but when this thread was posted suddenly are high and mighty about all of it and then send me nasty messages. You were not one of those people and most of the recovery divers aren't. It's a very specific few and I'm pretty sure that any of you guys in the industry or on the team already know about it. I hear your comment about self control, but I firmly believe the intent of this thread was to try and quell the hysteria that occurs because everyone nowadays lacks the self control to wait. I agree waiting 1 or 5 days isn't a big deal in my eyes, but it seems anytime there's a delay in information the rampant speculation and tons of misinformation goes wild. I think this tragedy has actually had less of that and I think it's directly related to giving people information to calm them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
Well, if you don't know why even after reading Teds post, I don't think I can explain it to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by UCFKnightDiver
Well stated Ted. Also, consider this: none of the recovery divers are asking for payment for these tasks, they do this as a service to the community. It's an absolute #### job, this one in particular. Especially if you know the victim. Yes, the recovery divers talk to people close to them, they likely can't afford to talk to a therapist about the aftermath of the experience, so that's the next best to unpack all the mental/emotional toll. The Eagles Nest incident had a very thorough report after some time had passed. I think the public can wait for some details. Though I was not one of the recovery divers, I knew the victim in this case and his lovely wife, I personally have had a rough few days with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
When a recovery takes place, there are many people involved. In this case there were over a dozen. Each person has a role. When they are done paperwork is filled out. It is the job of the surface manager to put all the small stories together and create a timeline and then hand that over to law enforcement. In this case( and most others), the surface manager was on site for multiple days till late at night. That?s a lot of time. Now they still have the job to compile all this info all the while being asked by law enforcement not to share this info. As recovery divers we are asked the same. The reason for this or as I was told in the recovery class is that stating anything on a public forum could potentially make you an expert witness in the eyes of a lawyer or such. This would mean that potential time in the future would be spent having to testify. I don?t want that to happen to me. Enough of my time has been taken. As far as I know, there is no getting kicked off? the team?. That is just dumb. I would agree that the iucrr could do a much better job releasing reports. It was never the mission of the iucrr to do so. It just happens that in the distant past reports were released. The sole mission of the organization is to conduct forensic examination and extraction from a location where law enforcement personnel are not qualified to go. In this role, the iucrr has been very successful. It would be nice for the organization to have a reporting branch to list the incidents. Maybe someone should step forward and volunteer their time. It is after all a volunteer organization. I think it is way too much to ask of anyone to release info so soon. The managers hardly had enough time to compile all of their info and things were being unofficially released already. Again, it?s not too much to ask to wait a short time.
People deal with stress and traumatic events in many different ways. Some like to talk about it. I just wish the person that wanted the info released had done it themselves.
On the subject of self control. By releasing info to quell the ?angry mob? are we not rewarding bad behavior? There is talk of some sort of memorial for the victim at the end of the week. After that time would be a good time to start talking about the specifics of the incident. It is respectful to let people mourn. It is also respectful to let people finish their duties before sharing info.
I think what we are seeing with this is the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction. Too many incidents never get any information released so the "angry mob" demands information as soon as possible because the longer the wait, the less likely the incident will ever actually be reported. If there was consistency with information being released, I don't think there would be that same mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
IUCRR coming out with a statement that says something along the lines of
"Solo diver recovered approximately 5,800ft in Ginnie Springs on 1/23/21. Diver was on a KISS Sidewinder, loop was found in mouth, bailout was intact. No further details at this time."
Then in say 2 weeks they actually release the compiled report, I think that would suffice.
By coming from the IUCRR it protects and particular individual from being called as a witness, and by actually following up, would do it. Per the website today, Jeff Bozanic is responsible for accident analysis, when was the last one published? Also per the website, and I quote "Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it." The IUCRR is choosing not to do that, and that's why I think the pendulum has swung where it is. If they followed through with what they say, then I truly believe that everything will calm down.
I?m not defending anyone here, but... Its a volunteer organization. Maybe someone should step up and take Jeff?s place. The surface manager had a lot on their plate and taking the time of which they had none, to put out a statement is a lot to ask. Everyone has great ideas, but nobody wants to step forward to help improve anything. Jeff has not been involved for a very long time. On a personal note, I have thought a few times to just start a discussion about the risks of hypoxia and its various ways to appear. Maybe that?s the place people should go. Right now I?ve lost 2 days of work and am busy catching up. I also want to put a little more time behind me as well.
If someone shared information about a recovery they were on, I would hold whatever is communicated in confidence.# If they wanted it public, I assume they#would post it themselves.# If the purpose for sharing with me was (spoken or unspoken) for me to serve as a conduit to get the information out publicly, I would consider politely declining and maybe ask myself why I was chosen for this.# If you post information about a cave diving accident or recovery operation that you weren't involved in and don't have specific relevant information to add, it looks like a particularly morbid form of clout chasing,#despite whatever noble intentions you may have.##
It would be nice if IUCRR voluntarily#posted reports like they used to.# When I started cave diving the IUCRR reports were important reading to reinforce best diving practices to follow and malpractices to avoid.# I came up in a time period where there were very few cave diving accidents in Florida, and almost all of the#ones that occurred were connected to inadequate training or equipment.# It seems like the past decade has had a lot more accidents, many of them divers who on paper had#all the required training and equipment.# Maybe the message of getting correct cave diving equipment and training was too successful, and it is worth investigating what,#if anything can or should be done to stop fatalities by trained and equipped divers.# Maybe the answer is nothing.# This hobby has a nonzero amount of risk to it, and the more complicated your dive plan is the#higher your risk.# #It seems there are a lot more complicated dives happening now on a more regular basis than in the past and a lot more divers doing them.# Those complicated dives are going to have complicated recoveries if there is a fatality. Recovering a body from several thousand feet back in Devil's was an amazing achievement.
If you want to get information about old accidents, send a public records request to the relevant law enforcement organization.# If IUCRR#submitted a report to them, you should be able to get it this way.# You will probably get the runaround from the PIO# but be persistent enough and you will probably get what you are asking for eventually.# #No matter what, you won't get it immediately since they will tell you the#investigation is ongoing, but once it's closed they are probably out of excuses not to provide it.# Focus your efforts on the people who are paid to deal with inquiries from "concerned citizens".
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To an ignoramus like myself is seems that it's almost always people on rebreathers. Those weren't around nearly as much 10 or 15 years ago. Yet, lots of the ccr divers I talk to say they are as safe or safer in caves compared to OC. I find that odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
One unreported IUCRR recovery in Ginnie was on OC. This was someone that I knew and was in one of my cave courses. This was several years ago, but no report has been completed by the IUCRR despite the recovery being done by them. This is also not a "lag" in reporting because they have one report from a more recent incident on the website. This was on a DPV which I think is far more dangerous than CCRQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
Knock yourself out:Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
Dear <NAME>:
Pursuant to Article I, section 24 of the Florida Constitution, and chapter 119, F.S., I am requesting an opportunity to inspect or obtain copies of public records in the possession of the Gilchrist County Sheriff's Office that relate to a cave diving fatality which occurred in the location of "Devil's Eye/Ear Spring" and/or "Ginnie Springs Outdoors" on or about <DATE>.# I am specifically requesting copies of any reports submitted by the diver(s) who recovered the body or equipment of the deceased (aka divers from the International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery "IUCCR"), as well as any electronic file downloads from the deceased diver's computer, if available.
I would prefer electronic scanned copies of these records, if possible.#If there are any fees required for searching, scanning, or copying these records, please inform me before filling my request. I am willing to pay fees for this request up to a maximum of $50.00. If you estimate that the fees will exceed this limit, please inform me first.##
Should you deny my request, or any part of the request, please state in writing the basis for the denial, including the exact statutory citation authorizing the denial as required by s. 119.07(1)(d), F.S.
Please e-mail me back to#advise when I may expect fulfillment of my request, and payment of any required fees.# If you have any questions in the interim, you may contact me via phone at <NUMBER> or via e-mail at <EMAIL>.
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Please see the quote from the IUCRR website that says if they can, they will. They can, they haven't and/or won'tQuote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
See the last paragraph of my post immediately prior to that one. Dont bother IUCRR, ask GCSO directly if you are so interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
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so because the IUCRR doesn't do what they're saying they will do, instead of pressing them to actually do it, we're supposed to let them off the hook and go around? That is ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
You must not be really that interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
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My thoughts on the matter mirror this exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
Of all comments, discussions, and threads started about this incident, these few paragraphs that Ted wrote are the only words that I feel that I can relate to right now.
Ted, thank you for everything. Especially thanks for being out front on that dive.
We owe each other a beer... or a coffee or whatever...
- Adam
This is part of that mentality of not sharing information. For those with knowledge of these past incidents (not just talking about this most recent one), don't you want to share that information with the hope that it could help others and make the sport safer? It seems like the answer is "no" from a lot of people to the point of actually silencing others. It seems insane to me to suggest someone do a public records request to gather information when we have a cave rescue and recovery organization that's purpose is to do those recoveries and in the course of that process also gathers relevant information from the knowledge and lens of a fellow cave diver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Noone is stopping you or anyone else from making a written public records request to the applicable government agency and disseminating the results. I even posted a boilerplate written request you could copy paste if you wanted. If you're too shy to ask and not motivated to pursue it and want someone else to do the leg work for you, that's on you and not the IUCRR, the good old boy network, or whoever/whatever the bogeyman is.Quote:
Originally Posted by UCFKnightDiver
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Cave divers holding a constructive discussion on modern accident analysis: "angry mob", "human suffering indulgers", "internet divers", "good ol' boys club", "accident reports mafia conspiracy", "hiding behind the victim family skirt", "go bug Uncle Sam for your accident report - if you have the guts", "slackers that won't put their foot where their mouth is"...
I would like to point out once again that the IUCRR is a VOLUNTEER organization. Just about everyone who is active with the organization was involved this past week. A lot of time was put in. Now according to some that is not enough? Once again, why doesn?t someone step forward and volunteer their time to help make the accident reporting side better instead of whining about it. It may say on the website the a report will be released or whatever. That was written a long time ago. There is no head office staffed with personnel to handle public relations. It is a group of cave divers donating their time to drag dead people out of caves and aid in the investigation. Who really wants to do that. The website needs a major overhaul. The organization could certainly use more people. If you are someone who is complaining and feeling that you are owed this information, than put on your big kid shoes and step in to help make things better. Everyone would appreciate it. You may also learn something too. If anyone is interested contact someone in the organization to start getting involved.
Are you talking about the diver who lost his scooter and his buddy and didn't have enough gas to swim out? That one was talked about on here at length. People shared lots of info.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
Not sure if Daedalus is just yanking your chain but he's given you a way to get info. If you'd be actually interested, you could at least try to get it instead of just demanding it from behind your computer. What's stopping you?
IIRC the other day you and others complained about the CDS not being worth the membership fee... that's also a club that lives of people donating their time. If you or anyone else unhappy with the situation, try to help out in the future.
no, that one is documented on the IUCRR site. I have requested the report from the IUCRR several times, they did not provide it. I don't make a habit of wasting my time with a lost cause. The IUCRR is headed up by Ken Hill, who is the primary reason for the muzzling. As long as he is head of that organization I do not see any positive changes in communication happening and volunteering with the intent of changing that would be a complete waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Tom, do you really think complaining about it on the internet is gonna help in anyway? Besides, Ted has already said several time that he's gonna share details if there is no report released after the investigation is closed. What more do you want?
As I already said, just open a thread about some issue that could have occured in any rebreather cave accident. I would like to read about it. It doesn't have to be about a specific accident and it doesn't have to be a day after an accident. That would be more productive.
BTW: Riches thread is back online.
If you requested a report from GCSO about a closed diving death case when I explained to you exactly how to do it you would have gotten a response by now. If GCSO refuses to release a report about a recent case because an investigation is ongoing, would it be smart for IUCRR to release it? I submit not.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
Again. ask GCSO they have a nice lady with a badge, a uniform, and an email address who gets paid to deal with requests from the public. IUCRR doesnt and some may argue shouldn't since it's an open question on their sovereign immunity vs. the sherriffs office.
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One of the things you guys complaining about info has not explained to me is exactly why you believe you are entitled to anything other than a public record. And why you are too damn lazy to actually do and get the record for yourself?
You?ve just pulled a body out of a cave.
You just finished rendering aid at a horrific multi-victim crash.
You?ve just watched your buddies ticket get punched.
After a recounting of the facts to the proper authority, then what?
Some folks cannot deal with a traumatic event at all and look the other way from the get go.
Some folks can suppress emotion through the event by focusing on the task at hand and emotionally crash afterwards.
Some folks can handle the event and are then able to deal with the aftermath bit by bit.
Many of these people will re-live the event in nightmares or flashes that seemingly come out of nowhere.
The after affects, in some cases, can linger seemingly forever.
Nobody I know jumps into assisting in these situations for appreciation or thanks. They are simply wired that way.
I have found sharing the burden to be quite helpful, but have learned the hard way to be careful who I share with. Sharing is a double edged sword. Once it leaves my mouth, I no longer control my own narrative.
Certainly there is a horrendous family tragedy here. There is also a lot of raw emotion yet to be processed by members of our community. Just maybe, we could all be respectful of that and take a step back for a bit.
because the IUCRR says they will give it to us and are not consistent in when they do or do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
the point is not for the rescue divers to share the details, it is for the IUCRR to share them. The details are all there within 24 hours of the incident, it's not hard for the coordinator to post something briefQuote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
Yeap! Exactly because ICURR badly need help in their information dissemination department, Rich took care of it for them. Preliminary accident report - check!
Ah, all the unappreciative cowards who think that recovering dead comrades in extreme environments is a walk in the park and wouldn't lift a finger to help with a rescue effort when called upon!
So, what sort of hypocrisy was Rich yapping about? Beats me!
This is ridiculous, someone just died and y?all are sitting here on the internet demanding answers from a VOLUNTEER organization? They don?t owe you ANYTHING, get off your high horses and donate your time if you believe accident reports and information releases are something important for the IUCRR to provide. If you aren?t willing to do that or contact GCSO about information then that?s on you.
Thank you to all involved in the recovery, the difficulty of dealing with that is truly something only a few will ever understand... I wish no one ever had to endure that.
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Tom, my point is that the iucrr and the rescue divers are one in the same. So by asking for the iucrr to release a report, you are in fact asking that of the divers. If you think that it?s no big deal for the coordinator to release a statement within 24hrs cause they have all the info, why don?t you ask that directly to the coordinator? And do you know for sure that all that info had been compiled by then? It is the duty of the iucrr to assist law enforcement in the investigation and recovery. The iucrr has never posted a report before law enforcement has closed their case. Sometimes that takes a while due to medical findings and such. Yes, in the past the iucrr has not posted reports. It?s not because anyone is withholding information. I honestly think nobody wanted to be bothered with it. I certainly don?t. It has always been policy to not share details of recoveries due to the connection with an open investigation. They are the policies of law enforcement. While I agree with many the release of some info early on would be nice, this is law enforcement policy. Rather than someone posting about a team member leaking info, why not just start a discussion pertaining to some of the issues that were encountered. There?s no doubt that info gets leaked. It happens everywhere in any community. If the recovery involved someone who pushed their gs and ran out, why not start a post on gas management? This would be way more productive than the normal bickering.
How many times have you been working on a problem, say something mechanical is not functioning properly. You think you?ve found the issue and only 10 minutes later the real problem arises. The same thing holds true here. Law enforcement is not going to release a report until it is all compiled and looked at. They will then release the info when a solid conclusion is drawn.
best discussed over whiskey next time I'm down as my experience with LEO on recoveries up here is apparently very different than what you deal with down there.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
From what I'm retaining after reading this so far is that manually controlled RB and Solo can be catalytic factor for already mentally loaded mission. Kinda suggest me that mental overload and Solo are something to watch for. RB is probably even worse although other surveying explorers were dying on OC. Mental overload it is.
The rest of the team knows it was me that asked Richard to post the details. My motivation was to stop the rampant speculation that normally follows a big incident and this was probably one of the most logistically challenging recoveries ever performed. I felt that a release of factual data, skipping anything speculative, and focusing on the effort that the team went through was the best way to quell the rumor mill and disinformation that invariably surrounds anything like this.
I owe everyone on the team an apology for not discussing this first, hopefully they will accept that.
thanks for making the effort to get that info out KenQuote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
I don't believe there is statistical evidence of increased fatality incidence in solo vs team dives. In fact, the inverse could be true given the overwhelming number of dual and triple fatalities. Solo dives tend to be more focused and productive for a number of reasons. People who dive solo don't forget to keep an eye on their gas and other dive parameters. In fact, they do it with greater reliability than group divers. In any case, we don't know the root cause of this accident just yet. Could be medical, could be equipment failure, or could be a human factor. Whether a buddy could/would have made a difference in this situation is impossible to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ARY
Thank you, Ken! From what I can tell, the data release achieved the effect that you intended very well. While militaristic bureaucracies despise leaks, the people appreciate them. It was the subsequent effort to censor the info that started the firestorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Got any evidence to support that theory of yours? And 'overwhelming number of dual and triple fatalities'? When was the last triple fatality.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
citation desperately needed for a number of the claims in that post...Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Nah, this is the internet. Have you met my friend Q'anon?Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Ron Simmons, AG, Wes ... I was recalling mission diving "with lens or slate" but Solo is not in a safety rules list of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
This just in from Q... Cave Diving Fatalities, A Summary - Jeffrey Bozanic, Rebecah Halpern, 1999 [Granted, this is a bit dated, but have we seen a trend in another direction in recent years with the multitude of muti-fatality accidents from Italy, Mexico, etc?]
Humor me for a moment and hang your GUE/UTD/etc hats, folks. Do you see any evidence in this chart that solo divers have a higher rate of accidents than team divers?
https://i.ibb.co/sJRhsm4/Screen-Shot...t-17-43-24.png
I know how convenient it is to say that when a solo diver perishes, it was, well, because he was diving by himself - end of story.
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/image...AAAElFTkSuQmCC
So when was the last triple fatality again? In the 80s in Italy? Also, tell me more about those octo-fatalities.
Looking at this 'evidence' you got, I reckon we should dive in teams of 10 or more... much safer than solo, according to this. Doesn't really support your theory, does it now?
While you were looking at this, have you considered that more people might be diving in teams of two than teams of 8 or solo?
So the info is out on Scuba Board and elsewhere but this forum is too politically correct to release it??? How exactly does this serve the community? Why even bother calling ourselves CaveDiver.net? May be we should swap it for PoliticallyCorrectDiver.net?
The only reason I see people "need" to know what happened right away is because they won't care in a month. Let the friends and family grieve.
A HUGE THANK YOU to all involved in the recovery!
This is bull. SB deletes TONS of content all the time, much more so than here. The mods on SB deleted lots of my posts while I don't remember getting anything deleted on here ever. How do you explain that?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
SB is a business, they're trying hard to protect some of their idiot 'power users' in order to keep them around to drive traffic. Accident 'analysis' theards are great for traffic... like it or not.
(This post would have been deleted on SB within 5 minutes, likely followed by personal insults from at least one mod via PM).
I don't know what happened but if the mods on here were asked by the recovery divers to take it down and Rich was ok with it, it's not because of pc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
This very well might be the case, I have not looked at from this angle. Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
To clarify, the mods did an excellent job with my post. They allowed it to remain up. In the background I got alot of fb messages and pm's explaining that the majority seemed to agree it was a good choice to post it since it quelled the typical mob. I also got about 4 people not being the most polite, and 2 that were very polite but wanted it down. I spoke with the mods who told me they felt it was a worthwhile post and they wanted to keep it up. I received a message from Ken asking me to ask the mods to take it down. I don't know the details, but I suspect it was because he was getting some push back from other recovery divers and he wanted to respect their wishes. A couple of the ruder people were on a witch hunt trying to find out who my source was. So I'm sure they sent him nasty messages too. I contacted the mods and said that ultimately it was their call, but that Ken (not named to them of course) would like it taken down. A couple hours later it was taken down, and then later put back up. I don't know why the mods chose to put it back up (But I agree it was the right choice). I know that the mods definitely seemed to feel the post had merit and was doing what it was intended to do. I find it funny that when the post came down, that's when the bickering grew in this thread. And seems to have died down when it went back up. Maybe that's a coincidence. Either way, don't blame the mods. I was in contact with them throughout the entire time and they handled everything very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Too late to edit but I meant to write it's 'not because of pc'.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Not too late, I changed it for you :)
All the bickering is entertaining.
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Yeah, just like a show I saw once in Juarez, "Juicy Lucy and her trained donkey".Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Lmao. Maybe not that exciting [emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
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Ideally, I wanted his wife to have the known details first, hopefully a moment to process, then this report posted here.
It is very worthwhile to know what happened, but respecting the family should be a priority.
Do we call “a moment” in this context a day, two, a week; that’s open to debate. A month is too long IMHO.
There will be a gathering at the devils eye pavilion on Friday from 10:00 to 1:00 for the celebration of life for Tom Ellis.
Thanks for letting us know. I'll see you on Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
My name is Ken Hill and I have been an IUCRR member for the past 25 years and its Director for the past 15 years.
Kelley texted me asking me to post a little about the IUCRR. It?s founding was done in the day of cave fatalities that involved mostly divers without cave training or cave divers that violated the rules of accident analysis.
The IUCRR is a Florida Not For Profit Corporation that is all volunteer and its SOLE purpose is to provide trained cave divers to assist law enforcement in the rescue/recovery of victims in an underwater cave. The IUCRR has worked very hard to maintain a level of professionalism. In addition we have been rewarded with gratitude and thanks by families and friends of victims we recovered.
The IUCRR is NOT a cave diving organization. It?s accident analysis is forwarded to Cave Diving organizations and it is for their safety officers to promulgate.
Its reports are prepared SOLELY for law enforcement use. They are complete and objective. There is NO speculation in the report. Law Enforcement trusts us to look at what they consider a homicide and a Crime Scene. Our divers make notes or provide photographic evidence of what we see. We are their eyes and ears. Only when finished with documentation do we attempt an extraction. Extractions can be difficult. Gear may have to be removed. Bones may have to be broken in some of the worst cases.
Once our report is turned in Law Enforcement does what does, evaluates it, sometimes asking our professional opinion. It also waits, sometimes months for toxicology reports, autopsy and gear and gas analysis etc. We are in no position to hurry things up.
As to reports not being published like years ago. Well it is 2021. We deal with threats of litigation. One example is the recovery diver at School Sink who was sued by the victims family. We encounter many fatalities the may fall under HIPAA rules. We don?t have a legal department to tell us whats good to go, or not.
We reserve the right to notify the Cave Diving community of an issue that is of an imminent threat to all divers. Other than that the reports belong to Law Enforcement we cannot release them without their approval. And as already said that may take months. We do what we can. If you think we are about keeping secrets you have your own issues to deal with. Use sunshine laws of the State of Florida if you want all the details.
You might want to test what I say by doing something simple. On your way home or going to work if you see an auto accident stop!!! Go over to the Trooper, Deputy or Police officer and give him your internet handle, then demand the who, what, where, when, why and how of the accident so you can post that info to save yourself and other motorists from a similar fate. ..... Let me know how that works out for you.
Accident analysis is important but if you trust your training, trust your dive plan, trust your gear and that of your dive buddy you?ll be fine
I?m doing this from an iPhone so please excuse whatever!
Thank you Ken
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Thank you, Ken.
Thank you for the post, the mission, the clarity, and the recoveries.
Thank you, Ken, for the clarification and for your incredible work with the IUCRR. God bless you and all members of the team.
Thanks, Ken, and thanks to all of the IUCRR team members for being willing to do what few would be willing or capable of doing. I've done several body recoveries in a variety of settings, and it's not fun. I've never recovered a diver, and sincerely hope that I never do.
I had to look up Promulgate. Great description and clarification.
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I have only done one in-cave recovery. It was before the IUCRR existed. I wouldn't care to do another one. I also did one OW recovery, in Virginia years agoQuote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Is 45 days still considered timely?Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerted
I think it basically has come out if read the posts about it. From everything that has been posted it sounded to me like the diver shut off his O2 feed, on purpose or not and either fogot to switch it back on didn't notice the po2 drop in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrki
If I had known the diver or was personally involved, I'd probably wait at least for half a year to a year to talk about it. Six weeks is not a lot of time.
and how would you feel if there was another fatality before you talked about it that could have been prevented from the learnings of this incident? The reports are already written, why is the IUCRR preventing them from being published?Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
That's bit of a red herring. Last year there was a accident where a diver went through a long restriction and somehow disconnected his O2 supply. Apparently he didn't notice it a died. (At least that's what I was told happened). A HUD might have helped. Is that news to anyone who has a CCR?Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
It seems to me that the problem is that people make mistakes and/or get distracted not that they don't know that they need o2. Besides, we already got a report from Rich/Ken.
Why not file a FOIA thing if you really think it could save somebodies life? Seriously, you should.
because the f*cking IUCRR says on their website that they will publish it if they can, and they can, but they won't. I heard all of the relevant information within days of the actual incident, this is the principal of holding an organization accountable for doing what they claim they are supposed to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
If you have all the relevant information, why don't you let us know then? YOU said it might save a life. Less barking more biting, Tom. And stop with that lame excuse 'because IUCRR wont publish a report for whatever reason'.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004