Whatever happened to the rules of DIR diving?

Hey folks,

the other day I had drinks with a couple of GUE Divers in french cave country. I believe they were GUE Cave 2 and Tec 1 trained. Turns out, they had never heard of the first rule of DIR diving and they didn't even know what a stroke was. They had also never heard of GI.

So, as a gue/DIR diver you can dive with strokes now? Sounds like they made a 180 on the most important rule they had. I realise that this might have happened years ago but I just learned about it. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm honestly suprised that the No 1 rule was dropped and I wonder why and when. Does anyone know what happened? I'm asking here as I usually don't have much contact to DIR people as they always roll up in groups and mostly just talk amongst themselves.

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Originally Posted by bent

Does anyone know what happened? I'm asking here as I usually don't have much contact to DIR people as they always roll up in groups and mostly just talk amongst themselves.

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Sounds like these folks might be exercising Rule #1.


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GUE has made significant efforts to distance themselves from GI3 and his "rules". These rules have lead to significant bad blood between GUE and other agencies and their divers. GUE is a kinder, gentler agency now. In fact, instructors caught using the "s" word have had threats made to have their instructor card yanked. Your last sentence at the end regarding how you don't communicate with DIR people is exactly proof of how the old guard made people feel versus how the new guard wishes you'd feel.

Evolution is more than just a theory. At some point, even slime mold dragged themselves out of the primordial ooze.

Yeah . . .

The previous three replies pretty well summed it up. ;)

My only familiarity with the term is from seeing people on the Internet discussing what DIR used to be like long ago.

I’ll just be over here with the rest of the DIR Rules Preservation Society members.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I?ll just be over here with the rest of the DIR Rules Preservation Society members.

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Care to elaborate on the membership rules, requirements, and process for joining?


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Originally Posted by Draker

Care to elaborate on the membership rules, requirements, and process for joining?


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If you have to ask you can’t be a member.

This is the way.

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Originally Posted by Draker

Care to elaborate on the membership rules, requirements, and process for joining?


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I thought you were already a member.... was sure this is what fed your disgust of my diving in shorts and a t-shirt all the time :)

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Originally Posted by Draker

Sounds like these folks might be exercising Rule #1.

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Yeah, that's what I thought.

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Originally Posted by lord1234

GUE has made significant efforts to distance themselves from GI3 and his "rules". These rules have lead to significant bad blood between GUE and other agencies and their divers.

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Doesn't it undermine the whole system when you drop the rules? I was under the impression that everyone needs to have the same gear and the same prcedures to be a DIR diver.

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Originally Posted by bent

Yeah, that's what I thought.


I was under the impression that everyone needs to have the same gear and the same prcedures to be a DIR diver.

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Just the Internet divers

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Just the Internet divers

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By 'same gear' I meant same configuration, not that everyone has to have same brand and model of wing or reg.

So how many people actually know the derivation of the term stroke?

what are you guys going on about?

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Originally Posted by Draker

Care to elaborate on the membership rules, requirements, and process for joining?


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about that...

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I?ll just be over here with the rest of the DIR Rules Preservation Society members.

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DIRRPS?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

about that...

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I?m not getting a real warm and fuzzy feeling from the welcoming committee. [emoji22]

I?m guessing my rebreather doesn?t bubble enough. Or my tanks sit too far apart.

But I have been known to embrace change when group inclusion and acceptance has been dangled...


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Originally Posted by Draker

I?m not getting a real warm and fuzzy feeling from the welcoming committee. [emoji22]

I?m guessing my rebreather doesn?t bubble enough. Or my tanks sit too far apart.

But I have been known to embrace change when group inclusion and acceptance has been dangled...


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As long as there is no paperwork involved. Joel

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Originally Posted by jlcdvr

As long as there is no paperwork involved. Joel

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A guy has to draw the line somewhere.


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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I’ll just be over here with the rest of the DIR Rules Preservation Society members.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

DIRRPS?

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:rollguy

I first met George and JJ back in 1996. George was always a pretty good guy in person. As far as the derivation of the term "stroke", I believe it was taken by George from Parker Turner, one of the first WKPP divers that stated that some of the divers that showed up and wanted to dive with the WKPP would try to impress Parker by bragging on all their dive certs, all the incredible dives that hey had accomplished etc,etc, or in other words Parker said he was being 'stroked" by these newbes.

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Originally Posted by Walter Pickel

So how many people actually know the derivation of the term stroke?

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I don't even know the definition.

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Originally Posted by allen

I don't even know the definition.

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An unsafe diver.

The "rules" were basically:

1. Don't dive with unsafe divers
2. Don't listen to unsafe divers
3. Nothing is worth dying for
4. Always analyze your gas before every dive
5. Don't dive a rebreather unless you need it
6. Always look cool. (Be squared away with your skills and your equipment)

and option 1 ... any diver can thumb a dive for any reason

The rules still make sense to me. People will disagree with who is safe and not safe and some people dive rebreathers all the time but otherwise I think it's all good advice albeit was delivered in a very rude and mean way.

I was in rec.scuba 20 years ago and I was on the other side of arguments back then. Today I just try to be the safest diver I can be and the older I get the more rule 3 applies.

The first 4 rules are just common sense for any diver doing any dives whether caves or shallow reefs.

Lots public safety guys need that third one tattooed on the inside of both eyelids, and the back of their hands

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Originally Posted by jbdvr

I first met George and JJ back in 1996. George was always a pretty good guy in person. As far as the derivation of the term "stroke", I believe it was taken by George from Parker Turner, one of the first WKPP divers that stated that some of the divers that showed up and wanted to dive with the WKPP would try to impress Parker by bragging on all their dive certs, all the incredible dives that hey had accomplished etc,etc, or in other words Parker said he was being 'stroked" by these newbes.

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Thanks for the insight :)
That's some cool background on the genesis of the term..
As for folks being a lot different in real life than appearing in written exchange in online groups and such..
Well there is just a lot of that.. I mean look at CDF there is I would say at least 30% of the folks posting here frequently which do not really appear to be very pleasant, diplomatic or even appear rude and opinionated (including probably myself to some of the readers) but are actually nice civil folks in real life..
I mean even bent and I got along well when we met in person ;)
Written exchange is always difficult, then paired with some alpha on a topic one is passionate about.. it easily drags to conversations that start to hit low quite fast.. It is what it is.. You always have to take it with a grain of salt.. And I bet 90% of the readers that looked at GI3s rants did recognize that..
It is the ability to look past the obvious and catch what actually has value and sense to oneself..

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Originally Posted by chrpai

5. Don't dive a rebreather unless you need it

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If anybody these days disagrees with 1-4 such individual really is an unsafe diver if not past that and somewhat mentally challenged..
5 for sure is very arguable.. The argument for using a Rebreather on any dive is to keep your skills up and at best for the challenging dives.. of course there is always an inherent risk with using it being the argument for the school only use it when you need it.. if you do that though, we are talking about the most extremist dives such diver is doing.. Is it then really usefull to use gear that one is less familiar with because only used when needed??
How do you maintain a safe skillset which you should have for big dives, when you only use it when you need it??
Never made sense to me..
I personally have it that if I can do a "big dive" that I want to do in OC in OC I will do that, but as I also want to keep up my skills I tend to do "small" dives more often with the CCR than with OC exactly for the purpose to be prepped for the big dives on CCR...

I think #5 translates to applying the tool. Not the training part.

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Originally Posted by Panther1880

I think #5 translates to applying the tool. Not the training part.

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Sure that, but where do you draw the line between a training dive and no training dive? ;)

As a OC diver in a mixed team:
I'd say until you have reached a chosen level on CC and need to dive the other configuration(s) you choose to dive at a chosen level to avoid losing proficiency there.

I'm making the assumption here that the chosen levels of proficiency are beyond minimal requirements for the diving that you choose to do.

So if we're talking about wanting to comply with these rules I think it still allows for a very fluid situation.

I agree with Nitrogenius concerning rule #5. If you want to use CCR as a tool for a "big" dive you should be proficient on it and have the constant training (e.g. by using it on a regular base).
If you dont trust yourself or your CCR for a small/ average dive, how do you justify to trust your life on it on a big dive?

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Originally Posted by Rechno

I agree with Nitrogenius concerning rule #5. If you want to use CCR as a tool for a "big" dive you should be proficient on it and have the constant training (e.g. by using it on a regular base).
If you dont trust yourself or your CCR for a small/ average dive, how do you justify to trust your life on it on a big dive?

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Imo, the angle here is that you need to be doing dives big enough to require a rebreather on a regular basis. A “big dive” once a year with a bunch of rebreather dives in peacock in between doesn’t really cut it.

But mostly, I think the rule is really about people who just want to dive a rebreather because it’s neat, not because it’s needed.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

But mostly, I think the rule is really about people who just want to dive a rebreather because it?s neat, not because it?s needed.

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Not just neat, but neat-o.


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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

But mostly, I think the rule is really about people who just want to dive a rebreather because it’s neat, not because it’s needed.

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This.

I wonder how many rebreather divers will ever do a single dive that requires a breather. I think these days, most people dive their ccr just for the hell of it.

I actually think all of the DIR rules make sense. The only thing I ever disagreed with is that not being DIR was automatically defined as unsafe/stroke.

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Originally Posted by bent

I actually think all of the DIR rules make sense. The only thing I ever disagreed with is that not being DIR was automatically defined as unsafe/stroke.

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I remember those days and the way certain zealots delivered the message actually delayed me from becoming a GUE diver by about 10-15 years. Granted I'm a nobody GUE diver in Texas but the circles I interact with don't discriminate at all. If anything I've gotten more harassment from other non-GUE divers for being a GUE diver. It'll take decades for all the sins to go away I suppose.

Personally I'd love to own a CCR and do deeper diving but alas I have a 16 yo and 14 yo that need me to be alive and paying for college so maybe the technology will improve in another 10 years.

I don't *need* to cave dive, I just do it because I want to and enjoy it. Some people don't *need* a CCR, they just dive one because they want to and enjoy it. Some people don't need to eat ice cream and cookies for breakfast, they just do it because they want to and enjoy it. Adulting at its finest! :-D

I expected this thread to go off the tracks, and yet here y'all are, totally nailing this "being cool and having a nice discussion like grownups" stuff! Cookies and ice cream for everyone!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-02-2017/Knmxko.gif

I guess I am lucky in that I don't give a toss what anyone thinks. I dive because I like it. I dive a.. here it comes, my own homemade rebreather because I want to. I even dive it in a small muddy quarry. But I also believe there is no such think as a simple rebreather dive so there I am covered in the technical need. Stroke, well in some's eyes for sure. I can remember the first time I did a cave dive in a rebreather and there was a group of WKPP divers who stuck around hoping for a rescue or recovery. But then at the time, no one did rebreathers in caves. Now if it's not side mount, it's rebreathers. Go figure!

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Originally Posted by bletso

I guess I am lucky in that I don't give a toss what anyone thinks. I dive because I like it. I dive a.. here it comes, my own homemade rebreather because I want to. I even dive it in a small muddy quarry. But I also believe there is no such think as a simple rebreather dive so there I am covered in the technical need. Stroke, well in some's eyes for sure. I can remember the first time I did a cave dive in a rebreather and there was a group of WKPP divers who stuck around hoping for a rescue or recovery. But then at the time, no one did rebreathers in caves. Now if it's not side mount, it's rebreathers. Go figure!

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which wkpp divers waited around hoping you died? absurd

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

which wkpp divers waited around hoping you died? absurd

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I was there, I saw them:

https://www.birdorable.com/img/bird/photos/128/23_4.jpg

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

which wkpp divers waited around hoping you died? absurd

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You know the ones. They had red drysuits, OC doubles, truck with a topper. Can’t miss em.

GI3 would put a flame thrower to anyone that questioned his "infinite wisdom". Reading his internet posts was entertaining/disturbing/educational all wrapped into one nice neat package.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

You know the ones. They had red drysuits, OC doubles, truck with a topper. Can’t miss em.

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Watch out, they'll attack you with a 7ft long hose when you're most in need of it.