Love the new line arrows at Peacock. The cut out numbers are awesome.
Are there any plans to install markers at the jumps?
TF
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Love the new line arrows at Peacock. The cut out numbers are awesome.
Are there any plans to install markers at the jumps?
TF
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+1 here... also love the T on the peanut line and the back to back arrows at the 1/2 way point.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
I believe a few of the jumps had the arrows removed intentionally. I believe Nicholson and Waterhole. I don't think those are going back. There's a facebook post with all of the changes you may be able to track down.
I'm still surprised that none of the changes were posted here or the NFSA page. Not everyone uses fb. Though at the end of the day if you can't figure out how to navigate the changes, then you've got bigger issues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7a24fd4977.jpg
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The markers at Crossover on the Peanut Side are missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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At Nicholson and Cisteen Line someone has installed personal arrows marking these jumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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I can see the pro?s & cons of having the jumps marked. Just seems to make more sense from a historical perspective (in my short cave diving history) to have the jumps marked.
Oh well. The tide of time marches on.
TF
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I hated to see the wishbone circuit marked and T?d. It was one of the few still pristine areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Agreed. The Wishbone circuit is one of my favorite dives in Peacock. I feel strongly that it should not be marked or T'd.
Completely agree. I think it’s the one change I don’t agree with. The crossover seems overkill since at this point it’s almost a sacrificial part of the cave. But it doesn’t bother me either way. I think wishbone will look like crap soonQuote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
I was bugged about the waterhole markers a lot. It is my favorite part of this cave. The way it was done is almost like trying to hide that passage. I think more damage will come by people trying to find it. Thankfully I was able to learn where it is years ago with the help of the markers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCityDiver
That one doesn't bug me so much since it will keep alot of people out of there. I don't know if they cut the jump back or not, but it's a pretty easy one to spot without markers. It's one of my favorites too
I read the FB post about these changes but forget now.Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCityDiver
What was the reason for cutting back and unmarking the waterhole line?
Here's the full report, minus the images.
North Florida Line Group – Proposal of changes, Spring 2019
Background
In November 2018, NFSA interim President Kelly Jessop and NSS-CDS Training Director Jon Bernot asked for the formation of a group to discuss current marking standards, line placement and navigation in several cave systems within the High Springs / Ft. White / Lake City area. The idea behind the request was for the group to evaluate the existing practices and determine whether they were appropriate or not, with the objectives of improving safety and conservation. This report contains their recommendations.
Group Membership
Cave divers tend to be an opinionated group and any discussion about changing line markings, placement, and navigational decisions is bound to stir an emotional response from many people in the cave diving community. In order to proceed within any reasonable time-frame it was decided that the group had to be small enough that schedules could be managed, but to serve the best interests of the community at large, the composition of the group needed diversity. It was decided that it would be important to bring in one instructor from each of the main cave diving training agencies represented in the North Florida area of discussion (GUE, IANTD, NSS-CDS, TDI), but the group also wanted involvement from divers with experience in a variety of cave systems around the world.
The members of the group are Jon Bernot, Pete Butt, Rick Crawford, Kirill Egorov, Lamar Hires, Max Kuznetsov, Ken Sallot, Randy Thornton
Principles
During our first meeting, the group agreed to a series of principles and rules which were used for forming our recommendations. Those principles are:
• Gold line has an established safety record and should be used in main trunk passages that lead to an exit. White line should be reserved for side passages.
• Tee’s may be used to aid navigation and reduce inadvertent damage caused from installing jumps.
o While it is acceptable for gold line to be Tee’d, such as is the case in Little River at the Serpentine and Merry-Go-Round split, white line should never be Tee’d into gold line. Tee’s should be limited to gold line to gold line or white line to white line.
• Directional arrows should always point to the nearest exit (“air”), as measured in linear distance, on the current line.
• Jumps to passages with sensitive areas should be left unmarked.
• Jumps to commonly traveled areas should be marked with two arrows pointing to the nearest exit.
Systems Discussed
The group discussed Devil’s Ear/Eye, Little River, Madison Blue Springs, and Peacock Springs.
Recommendations – Devil’s Ear/Eye
The group recommends the following changes to the lines in Devil’s Ear/Devil’s Eye:
1. Extend the start of the permanent gold line from 50’ to the back of the Devil’s Eye Cavern at 30’. This will eliminate the need for multiple teams to run a reel through the chute, reducing erosion and wear while minimizing entanglement hazards.
2. T the lines in the expressway tunnel.
The changes proposed are reflected in the following map:
Recommendations – Little River
The group reviewed the current line placement in Little River and has no recommended changes at this time.
Recommendations – Madison Blue
The group recommends the following change to the line placement in Madison Blue:
1. T’ing the Godzilla Room Circuit
The changes are reflected in the following map:
Recommendations – Peacock Springs
The group recommends the following changes to the lines in Peacock Springs:
1. T the Peanut Line into the Olsen / Challenge line. The Peanut to Olsen continuous line will be measured with arrows changing direction at the midway point.
2. To reduce diver traffic, cut back the Crossover Tunnel jump and leave it unmarked except with a distance arrow. All arrows on the Crossover Tunnel should point to Olsen.
3. To reduce diver traffic, remove the jump indicator markings for the Waterhole tunnel. The Waterhole tunnel will be measured with arrows changing direction at the midway point.
4. To reduce diver traffic, the Nicholson tunnel jump will be left unmarked, except with a distance arrow.
5. To reduce diver traffic, the Cisteen tunnel jump will be left unmarked, except with a distance arrow.
6. The Cisteen tunnel will be measured and the arrows reversed at the midway point.
7. To minimize diver impact, the Nicholson and Cisteen intersection will be T’ed together.
8. To minimize diver impact, both sides of the Wishbone tunnel will be T’ed into the Cisteen line.
9. To minimize diver impact, the Distance tunnel jump will be left unmarked, except with a distance arrow.
I agree with all but #8. T-ing in the Wishbone line will likely cause more diver traffic and impact, not less.
Think everyone I have talked to agrees on this. Sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
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Here too. I respect the job the nfsa does so dont want to complain. I think they give more to the springs than most other organizations. Maybe they will either reconsider or will at least have a discussion on it. I think that one change is a not great one. The rest are fine. I think people putting in jumps can mess the area up. 500 people going down there this year because its a new t will do much more harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
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There are still double line arrows marking the Nicholson and Cisteen jumps on on the Olson line.
OK, this is nice, but I don't get the "reduce traffic" logic in cutting back all jumps and jump markers in Peacock for practically all major passages. Anyone who wants to visit these based on the published maps will not be deterred by lack of markers etc - a little bit of planned search effort is all it takes. What I see is that this would result in more unnecessary work and potential confusion for all. I hope someone can explain these recommendations in a way that would make sense.
Other than this, the rest of the recommendations are all right.
I'll be the blunt jerk here. The consensus of many was if you need a neon sign telling you where the tunnel is because you lack the familiarity with the cave to find it on your own, and you're not with someone who has been there before, maybe you shouldn't be going there.
Comparing double arrows making a jump to a neon sign is a bit of a stretch.
Isn't that really the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
Just because the double arrows are gone, it doesn't prevent someone who is looking for the passage from finding it. It does, however, reduce the swimming by, seeing a marked jump, and exploring it just because it's there phenomenon. There is a LOT of cave to see at Peacock. For those that haven't been there enough to know where the pulled jumps are, I don't think they are exactly missing out on passage to explore. For those who are ready to explore new sections, or who specifically want to find the areas in question, there is no barrier preventing them from doing so. Furthermore, unless the jump lines were significantly cut back, I don't see how this would result in any increased damage to the cave. The same jump line needs to be put in place...
Am I missing something here? I am trying to understand why people are expressing concern over this, but I'm just not seeing it...
I just don't get the circuiting the wishbone. I can't think of a good reason to do it. Would like to hear the thoughts on that one.
Aren't lines supposed to be there to help someone find their way out, not find their way in?
Well, if "if you can't find the tunnels without the double arrows, then you shouldn't be there => pull out the double arrows" is a sound argument, then shouldn't we pull out the double arrows in Ginnie and all other systems? While we are at it, perhaps consider the argument "if you can't find your way around the cave without the guideline, you have no business in the cave => pull the lines out of the cave". But why stop here? We can take away all cave maps too. Where do we stop?
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
To prevent damage to the cave caused by unskilled divers installing jumps?Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Sure one can argue about not having it Teed would keep the unskilled diver from going in to begin with, I believe that would be no more than assumptions, but if the “T” is indeed to prevent damage from installing jumps, then we already have a solid motive without need for assumptions, as one would be able to observe damage near the start/end of the line?
Of course my vote is to T everything, everywhere ;)
If all of the jumps being placed are whats damaging the caves then we should just t the crap out of everything. I personally suspect higher traffic will damage the wishbone circuit more than jumps. I?m hoping to be proven wrong and it stays pretty. Ove the years I?ve seen the olden bypass get more and more scarred so I?m glad its not marked anymore (at least last time I dove it). In my head I see the same scars popping up in the wishbone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavão
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If these line changes are made due to the assumption that there is a lack of skills in certified cave divers shouldn't the root problem be addressed?
That?ll be the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmint
+ alotQuote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Thank god eric..Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
I started to think i was all alone with that train of thought..
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
That'd be great, wouldn't it? Sadly, I think that's an even bigger nut to crack, though. Especially since not everyone who dives in Florida is trained here...but hey, I am all for cave police!
Are you trying to say that it is folks that are trained outsideQuote:
Originally Posted by TotDoc
of Fl are lacking the skills?
I was wondering how long that comment would take to be questioned. I think people completely trained in mexico come here and may need some getting used to diving heavy steel tanks, but I think a very large number are much better prepared for making jumps and exploring off the mainline than those trained here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
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Overall the Mexican trained divers I have seen are much better than the US trained ones. This is especially true for sidemount. The Protec guys and Go Sidemount are definitely turning out better divers than most of what I see coming out of Florida. There are only a few instructors in Florida who I would recommend especially for sidemount. The ones doing the best seem to have spent a good bit of time in Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Are you suggesting that the only people who lack appropriate skills are people trained in Florida? Because if not, your comment is just trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
All I'm saying is that "addressing" skill problems noted in divers in Florida caves is difficult, when everyone who dives here is not necessarily from, nor are they necessarily trained here. Nor are there necessarily witnesses of someone's lackluster diving skills, particularly if someone isn't from the area and doesn't dive here frequently, or if they are diving solo while visiting the area.
How, exactly, do you propose we address training deficiencies in cave divers in Florida caves? Especially for visitors that we can't monitor well, and that we have no direct control over the quality of their non local instructor?
Also, to address the Mexico trained divers... that was not even the direction I was going with "not trained here." I was thinking more along the lines of trained from out of state where they have no caves, and doesn't dive ANY caves regularly.
That said, I know at least one individual who was refused a cave card by a local instructor, who then went to Mexico and got certified... in sidemount... and that guy has NO business being in any overhead environment... ever.
So even in an area like Mexico, where there are such a large number of quality sidemount instructors, there are still folks churning out crap quality students. I'm sure the same could be said for anywhere...
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
If people are having a hard time fathoming the line changes at Peacock, I hope they stay away from river caves. Lines aren't going to follow symmetrical logic, with random Ts,pulled back jumps, and all of this in lower viz and silt.
We could always request that instructors force students to accumulate a certain number of dives and/or time between certs. The number of people I've watched go from OW backmount to full cave sidemount with stages in a single week's time since I've been diving has blown my mind. Instructors are more worried about hounding people to pay them for cards than they are about the actual "training and experience". Just something that's become quite apparent/blatantly obvious in the last couple of years that I've been diving in the overhead.
Oh wow. How did we fall into the classic "PADI/FL/Mex/etc divers are the best/worst" fest?
Well, line changes or not, I will keep on diving. Thank you for sharing the changes whether they make sense or not.
Anyone out there mentoring new cave divers? Just wondering. Seems like tons of $hit gets thrown on instructors and agencies. I have to be honest, I've been really fortunate to have some mentor divers that give me a thorough debrief on a regular basis including room for improvement and pre-dive briefs running through possible problem scenarios. I have learned a great deal after receiving my cert by putting in the time and practice, and having mentors.
Oh sorry, the topic was line changes.
Lines are good.
I like them.
I also greatly appreciate public notice of radical changes to the lines.