JB flow is up!

Diving JB without a scooter is going to be tough, don't plan on making it past 2nd T, even with stages (or particularly with stages). Even making it to the start of the gold line would require a lot of pulling.

Here is a short clip made to show the flow between 2nd breakdown and 1st T, usually the toughest part when swimming.
https://youtu.be/GT5PAv250JU

Obviously there is less flow not going right by the gold line but not by a whole lot.
Flow is up all the way to stage rock, going down after that and back to normal after Source Nouveau.
Did not go past 4100ft, vis stayed around 50-60ish.

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Originally Posted by LMN

Diving JB without a scooter is going to be tough, don't plan on making it past 2nd T, even with stages (or particularly with stages). Even making it to the start of the gold line would require a lot of pulling.

Here is a short clip made to show the flow between 2nd breakdown and 1st T, usually the toughest part when swimming.
https://youtu.be/GT5PAv250JU

Obviously there is less flow not going right by the gold line but not by a whole lot.
Flow is up all the way to stage rock, going down after that and back to normal after Source Nouveau.
Did not go past 4100ft, vis stayed around 50-60ish.

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Before Cave Adventurers JB was consistently high flow and very few people had scooters. You learned to read the cave and find the low flow areas, and we would get reasonable penetration. I was there not too long ago testing out a new dry suit which was baggy, and had sidemount 95s. I made it well past the 2nd T, and turned out of boredom. During deco I watched 2 guys on scooters get blown out of the cave twice. Instead of going straight into the flow, look for areas of lower flow, and navigate there, which may not be a straight line.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Before Cave Adventurers JB was consistently high flow and very few people had scooters. You learned to read the cave and find the low flow areas, and we would get reasonable penetration. I was there not too long ago testing out a new dry suit which was baggy, and had sidemount 95s. I made it well past the 2nd T, and turned out of boredom. During deco I watched 2 guys on scooters get blown out of the cave twice. Instead of going straight into the flow, look for areas of lower flow, and navigate there, which may not be a straight line.

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It was JB back then that caused cave adapted scooters to be made.

There are plenty of lines prior to the 2nd t to explore that will also help get you out of the flow. Especially if you're in sidemount you can have a lot of fun in these areas and most of them are not on the map...you just have to slow down and look for them.

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I was there diving end of last year few weeks ago, and flow was ripping then also. I went up to the 2nd breakdown with my dpv (Magnus) and it was on highest setting and it was like i was going in slow motion. I have a video of it, I?ll post it once I edit out some of the boring parts.

But made it back to 4100? also towing a 2nd dpv and it took way longer than usual, I have to double check my slate, but it took nearly 42 minutes to make it back that far, and I wasn?t sightseeing....

I did see some divers without a motor, and they all said it was a workout..

We dove here again today (last time was about 2 weeks ago) the flow is even more than my last dive. Edd says the flow level is at record highs and climbing. It was absolutely brutal (we swam). Made it to just before the 1st T and decided we were not really having fun and turned. We ended up spending the majority of our dive in every side passage that could be found within the first 500ish'. Good times but not as fun as the JB im used to.

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

We dove here again today (last time was about 2 weeks ago) the flow is even more than my last dive. Edd says the flow level is at record highs and climbing. It was absolutely brutal (we swam). Made it to just before the 1st T and decided we were not really having fun and turned. We ended up spending the majority of our dive in every side passage that could be found within the first 500ish'. Good times but not as fun as the JB im used to.

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JB sucks for a swim cave. There are much better swim dives in the area. Most are probably blown and the park is closed to access Bozel if the river was down. Honestly I would go to Twin, Hole or Mattachuk. The Choctawatchee river is back down so Judge and Bone should be good too.

Back in the late 90's JB was a kicker. Like Gennie, you have to learn to read the cave or you are not going far. Of course far shouldn't be the goal anyway. Just enjoy what nature has done.

How cold is it down there???

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Originally Posted by cavekrazi

How cold is it down there???

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34 to 52 today. Over the next 10 days it will be as low as 28, and high as 60.

I'm bringin my woollies!

Ice diving local quarries vs. record JB flow. Not even close. Waitin for Tesla to get their act together.

Back in the 90s my buddy and I were working toward our Abe Davis awards, and my instructor required ten systems, not just ten different entrances . At the time, the skinny on JB was, "If you don't have a scooter, don't go to Jackson Blue." Well, we decided to try it anyway; even if we only got 300' in, at least we got another system in our logbooks.

Turns out we swam to the second T on backgas only! And I've watched the flow go from very high to very low to very high to very low...

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Originally Posted by Sludge

Back in the 90s my buddy and I were working toward our Abe Davis awards, and my instructor required ten systems, not just ten different entrances . At the time, the skinny on JB was, "If you don't have a scooter, don't go to Jackson Blue." Well, we decided to try it anyway; even if we only got 300' in, at least we got another system in our logbooks.

Turns out we swam to the second T on backgas only! And I've watched the flow go from very high to very low to very high to very low...

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JB is actually a swimmable cave, even in the 90s when the flow was consistently strong. Reading a cave and swimming is an art and is an important skill for cave divers to master. There is a pervasive feeling that you need a scooter to navigate against flow, but swimming is a process, just like cave diving. First few times you do a cave dive, your distance is limited by a lot of factors. By the time we hit Abe Davis, that same dive we will double the distance with air to spare.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

JB is actually a swimmable cave, even in the 90s when the flow was consistently strong. Reading a cave and swimming is an art and is an important skill for cave divers to master. There is a pervasive feeling that you need a scooter to navigate against flow, but swimming is a process, just like cave diving. First few times you do a cave dive, your distance is limited by a lot of factors. By the time we hit Abe Davis, that same dive we will double the distance with air to spare.

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And the Atlantic ocean is able to be crossed in a kayak too. Sure you can swim it but most of the better parts in my opinion are back past the trash room. Even in a no flow cave most people aren't going to swim 3 or 4k into a cave only to have that long of a return. In JB you can get off to the sides on some smaller lines or just away from the gold line if you know the cave but there will be sections you have to pull during high flow conditions. If you have a properly weighted scooter and have good skills on the scooter I would say that scootering is lower impact on the cave and actually safer for a properly planned dive as your deco obligation is significantly reduced. So yes it is doable but as I stated earlier there are much better swim dives in the area. Hardly anyone dives Judge's and I really enjoy it as it is a mini Peacock to me and you can do a dive in Bone with your leftover gas from Judge's. Mattachuk is fun as well as Gator Hole. Twin is a good swim dive even though the Subway tunnel is a little boring but there are some really cool parts to Twin 3 or 4k back that most people never go see. HITW can be good but the viz is spotty in the main passages a lot of time. Bozel is one of the best swim dives in Florida but the river is up and the park is still closed from the Hurricane. I think that most just dive JB because it is easy access and requires less effort to get to it. I generally prefer the non tourist caves as all the damage in the JB is not pleasant to look at for me.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

JB is actually a swimmable cave, even in the 90s when the flow was consistently strong. Reading a cave and swimming is an art and is an important skill for cave divers to master. There is a pervasive feeling that you need a scooter to navigate against flow, but swimming is a process, just like cave diving. First few times you do a cave dive, your distance is limited by a lot of factors. By the time we hit Abe Davis, that same dive we will double the distance with air to spare.

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I agree with the sentiment you regularly express, unfortunately I don't think it's taught too frequently. I think the majority of people taking cave class only learn about reading the cave when their instructor tells them to get high in the gallery at Ginnie. That's about it.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Before Cave Adventurers JB was consistently high flow and very few people had scooters. You learned to read the cave and find the low flow areas, and we would get reasonable penetration. I was there not too long ago testing out a new dry suit which was baggy, and had sidemount 95s. I made it well past the 2nd T, and turned out of boredom. During deco I watched 2 guys on scooters get blown out of the cave twice. Instead of going straight into the flow, look for areas of lower flow, and navigate there, which may not be a straight line.

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I just called Edd and asked how he managed to turn the flow down when he opened CA... that was a seriously weird comment.

JB boring.. yeah gonna disagree there

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Originally Posted by bamafan

And the Atlantic ocean is able to be crossed in a kayak too. Sure you can swim it but most of the better parts in my opinion are back past the trash room. Even in a no flow cave most people aren't going to swim 3 or 4k into a cave only to have that long of a return. In JB you can get off to the sides on some smaller lines or just away from the gold line if you know the cave but there will be sections you have to pull during high flow conditions. If you have a properly weighted scooter and have good skills on the scooter I would say that scootering is lower impact on the cave and actually safer for a properly planned dive as your deco obligation is significantly reduced. So yes it is doable but as I stated earlier there are much better swim dives in the area. Hardly anyone dives Judge's and I really enjoy it as it is a mini Peacock to me and you can do a dive in Bone with your leftover gas from Judge's. Mattachuk is fun as well as Gator Hole. Twin is a good swim dive even though the Subway tunnel is a little boring but there are some really cool parts to Twin 3 or 4k back that most people never go see. HITW can be good but the viz is spotty in the main passages a lot of time. Bozel is one of the best swim dives in Florida but the river is up and the park is still closed from the Hurricane. I think that most just dive JB because it is easy access and requires less effort to get to it. I generally prefer the non tourist caves as all the damage in the JB is not pleasant to look at for me.

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I am not saying don't scooter,but people who express the opinion that the only way to dive JB or Manatee is with a scooter are missing a dive that challenges you as a cave diver, and help you develop your skill set. There are some great cave dives that are very high flow, where a scooter is not reasonable due to the size. Having the physical stamina for sustained swimming against flow with a regulator which promotes hypercapnia, and knowing your surroundings as to where to be to avoid flow, can really pay off in these dives.

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I just called Edd and asked how he managed to turn the flow down when he opened CA... that was a seriously weird comment.

JB boring.. yeah gonna disagree there

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Funny. In the early 90s it was consistently high flow, and over the years the flow has diminished

JB wasn't boring,but the dive I was doing was because its only goal was testing gear

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I am not saying don't scooter,but people who express the opinion that the only way to dive JB or Manatee is with a scooter are missing a dive that challenges you as a cave diver, and help you develop your skill set. There are some great cave dives that are very high flow, where a scooter is not reasonable due to the size. Having the physical stamina for sustained swimming against flow with a regulator which promotes hypercapnia, and knowing your surroundings as to where to be to avoid flow, can really pay off in these dives.

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I swam Manatee as part of my cave CCR card. It was ok, but a lot of zigzagging to make any progress. I'm not sure I would call "hypercapnia or bust" fun. If the system is high flow and too small for a scooter, then I'm not sure if there's that much reading of the flow anyway. To me that's more a swim from handhold rest to rest scenario. The only one coming to mind is Mattachuk, but I was only there once years ago so I might be mis-remembering the experience.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Twin is a good swim dive even though the Subway tunnel is a little boring but there are some really cool parts to Twin 3 or 4k back that most people never go see.

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Is there a decent map of Twin showing past the terminal room?

Field measurement taken on Jan 16th was 180 cu ft/s. Previous field measurement taken on Nov 8 was 76.69 cu ft/s.

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Originally Posted by rjack

Is there a decent map of Twin showing past the terminal room?

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Rob Neto has surveyed it and has a stick map. Not sure if he will share it or not. You could ask.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Rob Neto has surveyed it and has a stick map.

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A lineplot is not a map. It's really cool that he has surveyed the cave, but without information about walls and floor, then it's just the survey data which constitutes a lineplot. You should encourage him to turn it into a map and publish it.

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Originally Posted by jlillest

A lineplot is not a map. It's really cool that he has surveyed the cave, but without information about walls and floor, then it's just the survey data which constitutes a lineplot. You should encourage him to turn it into a map and publish it.

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Sadly this happens a lot. Life has a way of doing this. I think with him Queva Quabrata on Cozumel has become more important.

There is a fissure crack back in Twin that goes from 100' deep to 0' even though no light can be seen. It is a cool cave and most never do anything but the circuit and maybe Skiles passage. Years ago Marius laid a bunch of line in there and in HITW. I don't think anyone has been to the end of Marius's line in HITW since he laid it. I don't know if this was before or after he made the connection to JB2 but it was close. There is actually dry cave in his HITW passage. I have been told it is really nasty.

Any updates on JB flow?

I'll let you know Friday, worst case.

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Originally Posted by Scubaru

I'll let you know Friday, worst case.

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Thanks

Flow is high as I have seeen it in past 20 years. Vis seems to fluctuate almost daily with the rains. Water is warm 69 and cave is very scooterable. Side tunnels are mainly clear and swimmable. Hope that helps...ps it's real quiet in Marianna


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Originally Posted by cavekrazi

Hope that helps...ps it's real quiet in Marianna

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Good to see you this weekend. Things are definitely a bit different since the storm but glad to see people diving. The big three on the Millpond along with Maddachalk and Ebro should be diveable, more options than in "cave country" right now...

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Originally Posted by MichelleC

...more options than in "cave country" right now...

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I always find it amusing that some people call the High Springs area "cave country", since there are cave dives all over the planet :-)

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Originally Posted by FW

I always find it amusing that some people call the High Springs area "cave country", since there are cave dives all over the planet :-)

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I think the euphemism of cave country is being able to back up to a picnic table, walk less that a couple 100feet to the entrance, and there are amenities at the sites eg bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I think the euphemism of cave country is being able to back up to a picnic table, walk less that a couple 100feet to the entrance, and there are amenities at the sites eg bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

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Possibly but in the 30+ years that I've been diving there, it was always referred to as "Cave country" well before any of those amenities existed. In fact, you could back right up to Peacock, camp at Cow or Telford and Bill's shop wasn't even twinkle in his eye. Picnic tables, bathrooms, hah . You trucked over to Arwyn's or Gene's

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I think the euphemism of cave country is being able to back up to a picnic table, walk less that a couple 100feet to the entrance, and there are amenities at the sites eg bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

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And post-dive BBQ and Mexican food within a convenient distance!

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

And post-dive BBQ and Mexican food within a convenient distance!

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Hell yes!!

or how about Gator tail across the street from Suwanacootchee?

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Originally Posted by Terry D

or how about Gator tail across the street from Suwanacootchee?

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The place at the foot of the old bridge?

exactly. They used to raise gators right there. Best fried gator I've ever had

JB was more manageable this trip than 3 weeks ago. We just stayed away from the gold line. It was back to pull and glide instead of pull and pull, but she's definitely still pumping.

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Originally Posted by Scubaru

JB was more manageable this trip than 3 weeks ago. We just stayed away from the gold line. It was back to pull and glide instead of pull and pull, but she's definitely still pumping.

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Thanks!