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Been to Madison Blue before and have always wanted to do this dive but never have.I dont have a map of the system.Wondering which jump you take off the mainline to get there and What is max depth and distance of this dive? Will me and my buddies need some stages?Also is it as beautiful a dive as I have been told before?Where can I get a good map of the system and has it been walled out? I know its alot of questions thanks in advance for all replies.
Greg
There's more than one way in. Take your thick undergarments, you're in for a long swim dive
wow-a lot of questionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Gregthecaver
The easiest way to the courtyard is through potter delight. This can be a challanging dive,and better attempted by more experienced cave divers or with somebody that has been there several times. There is a small section called Rocky Horror that won't allow you to turn around if you have a problem,and you don't want to meet another team in there. In fact,we used to put a slate on the line at the beginning of Rocky Horror to let those that missed the obvious jump line,that there isn't enough room for two teams. I have done it on backed mounted tanks,but a stage left at the mainline could provide a safety gas in case you have problems in Rocky Horror or blow out Potter Delight. There is a map,but it has not been made publically available,which there are several reasons why which I won't elaborate on. Has it been walled out-I've never been to EOL,but I've been told there are some going areas. Madison has some really crappy,nasty side passages that have potential,but it has baby powder fine silt. Is the courtyard a great dive...depends on perspective. It is okay,but not my favorite. My fear is that it will become a goal oriented dive. For example the well casing,the heinkel,the grand traverse to name a few have become goal oriented dives that everybody wants to put in their log book,but some dives are really dives that the whole populace needs not doing. Just my .02 worth.
Thank you Kelly. How have you been?
Any better I couldn't stand it. Hope we'll see you sometime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregthecaver
Hope you get to do the Courtyard sometime in Madison,especially before the tropical season gets full blown.
I have always felt that RH was the best part of that dive 8)
If you don't log it, does that eliminate the possibility of it being goal oriented? :wink:
A couple of friends & I are probably heading down over the fourth.Hopefully Madison will still be diveable then"Crosses fingers".
Greg:
Go down the main line and through the "Half Hitch" restriction until you reach the 1350' mark. The jump is to the right. It's then a 350' swim to the entrance of the "Potter's Delight/Rocky Horror" tunnel. Once you make it through this tight, silty, twisting tunnel, it opens up into larger tunnel with enough room to turn around in easily. A short distance ahead is the hole in the floor and the vertical drop to "The Court Yard" tunnel. Max depth up to this point is about 70', but then it drops to about 120'.
The last 2 times that we made this dive, it took 60 minutes to hit thirds in "The Court Yard" at about p3300'. It then took 48 minutes to return to the "Horse Shoe Room". The first time that we did it, we used Air and had 102 minutes of decompression. The second time that we did it a year later, we used EANx 32 and had 5 minutes of decompression. We never used Air on a cave dive after that.
I would highly suggest that you make the 1700' swim to the entrance of the "Potter's Delight/Rocky Horror" tunnel, then take a couple of minutes to get a good look at it and get a feel for how much gas you'll need and if you can physically handle the dive. You do NOT want to commit yourself to negotiating this tunnel the very first time that you see it. Unless you're using a scooter to get there, carry a stage bottle and drop it either before going through the "Half Hitch" restriction or before making the jump.
Frank
IMO, the best way to get to the Courtyard now is to enter at Martz, jump to the main line, then proceed up from there. It keeps you out of the flow until you get to the main line, and is a bit shorter.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
Of course...this dive was much easier when we could scooter there. I've scootered to Potters many times, and swam from there....and also towed scooters through Potters/Rock Horror several times and scootered the courtyard. There was also one attempt made with Moonfuzzy that ended in us dropping the scooters in the middle of Rocky Horror because her scooter was too heavy, with "new and improved" batteries, as I recall. After swimming into the courtyard a ways, on the way out my HID failed...and had to exit on a backup(actually 2 of my 5 - I carry 5 since I dive solo a lot - held in the same hand) on the scooter. What a fun dive! :-D If you want the play by play, look for a trip report that Moonfuzzy wrote....I believe it was about 3 years ago.
Mike
I agree with Mike. Go in Martz, hang your 02 on the main line and go upstream to the first jump right. On the way back, pick up your deco bottle and go out thru the main entrance and deco by a submerged platform.
Thanks for all the replies guys.Is there are a good reason that a complete map of the system has not been made?
There are two full maps of the system. There is also a team working there under permit that is pushing and mapping the cave now. I think Mike Poucher sells the map that Bruic made. Try contacting him at cavesurvery.com. Cindy :D
The dive that I've always enjoyed the most at Madison Blue was the swim to the Godzilla Room and then exiting it on the opposite and making the loop. :D
If you're comfortable with occasional tight, silty areas and are experienced with sidemounts, the swim down the Crossunder Tunnel to the deep section dropoff(p1000') is another good dive. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Cindy,
When you say pushing and mapping does that mean that the two full maps arent "walled out" maps of the system?
Greg
I think there is still line to be laid in that system. You may have to do many stages and or rebreather and any new line will be side mount. Cindy :D
I have to give a LOT of credit to the divers who made the connection between the Crossunder Tunnel dropoff and the Rocky Horror dropoff. That was a lot of passage to swim and survey, and without any exit point for thousands of feet. If you get a chance to see a map of all that passage that's not on the regular map, you'll understand what I mean.
A sidemounted rebreather?????? :?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
And now, for no reason associated with this post... I just wanna use this smilie I just saw: :smt079
That was a very fun dive, but I think we had more than "3 Strikes" against us on that one!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
Here is a link to the report Mike mentioned, goves some detail if you are planning a dive there:
http://cavediver.net/dive_reports/di....asp?DR_ID=291
Yes indeed, sidmount rebreathers! Three types , are currently in development. I just sold my D5 to Forrest and one to Mark. Sidemount rebreathers are being used in the UK. Also Brett Hemphill is putting on together and using it, I am sure it will eventually go commercial. I was actually checking out the Halcyon Rebreather the other day and thinking it could be mounted on one side with your bailout on the other. Personally I like diving where I can see things. If anything is going to leak I want to see the bubbles myself. Cute emoticon by the way! Cindy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
The CDS has a map of Madison to about 6000 feet in the Courtyard and about 2000 feet downstream. Mike Bruic took that data and added the connections between the Courtyard and Crossunder, some of the other cross passages, and the downstream that Guy Bryant, Wayne Head, and others had been pushing back in the 90's. I don't sell either one since they aren't my maps. The CDS has one availalble on their website, but I don't remember if it has all the Courtyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregthecaver
Mike Poucher
CaptainSpeleo wrote:
A bit of history about the Rocky Horror-Courtyard to Cross-under connection:Quote:
I have to give a LOT of credit to the divers who made the connection between the Crossunder Tunnel dropoff and the Rocky Horror dropoff. That was a lot of passage to swim and survey, and without any exit point for thousands of feet.
It took a good bit of effort to make the connection. The cross-under tunnel used to go only a couple 100ft. It can be done with back mounts but is much easier with side mounts. In July 1980 Court Smith and I were looking around in the cross-under tunnel. We went to the small restriction at the end of the then current line. We noticed quite a bit of current coming out from a pile of rocks blocking the tunnel. I started pulling rocks out and handing them to Court who would dispose of them further down the tunnel. I spent almost a full hour digging the restriction out. I finally had it big enough to fit through with a single tank. I could see tunnel opening up a bit and continuing on the other side. I decided to return soon and see if I could slip through with a single. If the tunnel continued on then I would continue my efforts to open the restriction more. It was several months before I returned due to other diving projects I was involved in at the time. I finally returned in January 1981 with Lee Sams. We made it to the restriction with single 80's Y valves and sliped through. To my surprise I found that someone had beat me to the tunnel and layed line. We followed the line back to the cross-under drop off and dropped down to the 110 ft depth and looked at big going upstream and downstream tunnel. We then made a hasty retreat as we were only diving single 80's.
I inquired with Sheck Exley if he had put the line in since he was pushing some of the tunnel downstream of the Courtyard. I figured he might be looking for a connection. He told me that it was not him. A few days later Roger Werner called Sheck about the possible connection and Sheck told him to call me. As it turned out Roger was the one who had scooped me by only 2 weeks. Roger and I then joined forces and set off on the quest for a connection between the Courtyard and the Cross-Under. We made several dives in the Cross-Under which is a lot of work carrying mutlitple stages through all the cross-under restrictions. Upstream from the Cross-Under drop-off is a maze of tunnel. We would lay line into a tunnel only to find it branching several times. We would eventually run into areas too small to traverse thus having to back track and try another route. Finally, Roger Werner made the connection on a solo dive. I was not able to dive that day due to having to work.
mpoucher wrote:
More history:Quote:
The CDS has a map of Madison to about 6000 feet in the Courtyard and about 2000 feet downstream. Mike Bruic took that data and added the connections between the Courtyard and Crossunder, some of the other cross passages, and the downstream that Guy Bryant, Wayne Head, and others had been pushing back in the 90's.
Durring the summer of 1990 Larry Royal, Bob McGuire and myself made a push on the downstream section of the cross-under tunnel. We made several dives to place stage bottles before attempting our big push. We finally were able to make a total penetration of about 6000 ft from the rabbit hole entrance. Near the end of the line the tunnel forks. It is still fairly large in both forks. I don't remember nor did I notate in my log which tunnel we left a reel in. Right or left fork? There is a reel in one of the forks with line on it waiting to be layed. It was so much work to get there and bring all our stages out that we never did go back and push the tunnel more. If someone does go to the end of our line and reel out the remaining line I would appreciate it if they would donate the reel to the Cave Diving Museum.
Mr. Bryant,
That was an exciting history report. I could feel my heart racing in excitement as I was reading your post wondering what it would have been like to be on a project like that. I only wish I could have been involved in a massive project like that, esp at Madison. I think back to when I first became intrigued with cave diving in 1999. I watched the Madison Blue Cave Map by "Video Cave Maps" hundreds of times literally. Scubatech was about the only outfit making video maps at the time. (I was introduced to Scubatech's products at Branford Dive Center when I saw it playing in his shop.) So for some reason Madison Blue became a symbol of kick-arse cave diving in my mind. What I wouldn't give to have been able in the 90's to help with an exploration such as that you describe.
Great work. Hey, anybody interested in getting together and retrieving that reel at 6,000 ft? :lol:
When Wayne K gets back on his feet, you might want to ask him for a look at his Madison map, it's the best I've seen by far :-D
He's obtained a permit and with some friends has been pushing it hard....
Safe diving,
Rich
What does a permit get you in a State park that is open to diving?
Scooters? Night Diving?
Wow...Lotsa replies. I guesss there is alot more to the system than I thought :D
Greg:
Madison Blue is indeed a massive size cave system, but most cave divers don't get to see 90% of it because the dives that need to be made to see most of it are very complex and advanced in nature. I've made a single stage/scooter dive to about the 3500' mark in The CourtYard, and that was enough for me, even with 19 years and over 1,000 cave dives under my belt.
Frank
And for some of us that are still new at exploring Madison , the Godzilla room is awesome to me. I've only seen a tiny bit of Madison so far , but what I have seen of it is just spectacular.
I found the "froggie" but no Godzilla ... :(
Jeano Beano
P.S. And I STILL love doing the cavern there...Lots of holes to poke/peek around in... :-D
Where the line runs along the left wall, just before you make the drop into the Godzilla Room, you'll see a gap to the right about 12' - 15' away. If you use a reel to close the gap, you can then go completely through the Godzilla Room and follow the clockwise loop back to the reel. It's not a long swim and only takes a few minutes. Some areas of the loop are silty, so be careful with bouyancy and swim technique so you don't blow it out for the diver(s) behind you.
It's another addition to the Godzilla Room dive, if you've never done it before.
We have a Madison Blue map on display at the museum in High Springs if you want a peek.
State permit at Madison allows use of DPV for exploration and mapping reasons only. Any data that group collects has to be turned into the state and they are expected to file a end of year report. These type of permits are a great way for cave divers and the DEP to start working more closely together and help understanding on both sides.
Later, Cindy :D
Have to have a tangible reason,and ask park permission to do anything outside the rules even with a permit. Plus the state park gets to share in your data. I share freely with the state parks all my info,which causes me extra paperwork,and the beneficery isn't me,but the sport of cave diving.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
Most cave divers today are going to have a hard time seeing parts of Madison without doing huge setup dives and Long swims. This is a problem/benifit of the no scooter rules the parks are putting in place.
Not that I'm trying to start something ;-) but since there is a Cert for scootering, isn't this an opportunity to open dialog with the parks. I will be the first to agree that there are folks that have used scooter that had no business do so. Some that shouldn't even be in the cave. Just a thought.
Curt
If the parks opened scooter use to all of those who have a DPV card, what special privledge would be left for those that apply for permits? :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
After Hours diving? :roll: on site camping maybe. The wonderful feeling that you are giving back to the community.
From what I understand Madison is not open for scootering. Hence requiring the permit to do pushes and survey. I believe it was closed to scootering for several reasons. Damage and access to the well head are two reasons that I have heard in the past. I can't say because I was not involved in that decision or in the current permit. If you have questions you need to address them to members of that team. I'm not trying to sound snotty, it's just I can only tell you what I have read and heard which is all second hand. Cindy
Does anyone know where the "hole" about 30 feet just to the right of the mail line entering through the rabit hole goes? Don squeezed through it using doubles a few weeks ago bid didn't go more than a few feet. Looking into it yesterday I noticed two lines visable. Is this the crossunder tunnel?
Yes, this is a way to get to the cross-under tunnel. It is much easier if you go through the rabbit hole and go a few feet down the permanent cavern line. You will quickly notice a tunnel to your right below you. The vis in this tunnel is usually a bit less than the main tunnels in Madison. It is usually a bit cooler too. Tie in on the cavern line and reel down into the cross-under tunnel. You should see an old large spool on the floor. At this point look up toward the ceiling on the left and you'll see the permanent line for this tunnel. There are a couple of jumps to the left off this line through sidemount tunnel. If you take one of the two left hand jumps you will eventually go to Ransom Sink on the other side of the road from Madison. To get to the downstream drop off stay on the main line for about 800 ft. Hope this helps you.
Guy
Guy, Thanks for all the work you've done. After swimming the Crossunder-Courtyard circuit, I truely appreciate the many hours of trial and error that went into connecting those lines. That is a dive that I will never forget.
Yeah, it was quite a bit of work to make the connection. You can thank Roger Werner for making the final connection. I agree, diving the Courtyard - Crossunder Circuit is quite a dive! Did you dive from the courtyard side 1st to the crossunder or did you go from the other direction? I found it easiest to go to the courtyard first. In 1982 I did it like this:
Dive 1 - place a Navy 95 stage at the drop off in the cross-under tunnel.
Dive 2 - Use a scooter (made by Lamar English) & Navy 95 stage bottle to get to potter's delight. Drop both scooter & stage at potter's. Swim through the rocky horror into the Court yard. Drop down through the hole and jump to the downstream. After quite a bit of swimming I finally reached my stage at the crossunder drop off. I was using dual low pressure 104's pumped to 3600 psi. I had more that 1/3rd of my gas when I reached my stage in the cross-under. I then used the stage to exit through the cross under. I used air at all deco stops below 20ft. At the 20ft and 10ft stops I used 02.
Dive 3 - Swim back to Potter's Delight and retreive my stage and scooter.
Going from the other direction was more time consuming as I did not use a scooter and had to swim against current most of the time.
Is the ciruit now one continuous line? When I made the circuit there were three T's in the line once you started downstream from the Court Yard.
Guy
No, the line isn't continuous. You've got the mainline running from the entrance up past the Mount Offshoot, a line running from the Mount Offshoot up through the Court Yard (some of the Ts have been cut back), and a line running from the Crossunder up to the Court Yard (several Ts along the way).Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Bryant
Lee
I swam from crossunder to courtyard and out thru potters. Dive was done on 104s and a al80 stage(carried the whole way) with O2 for deco, . The line is still continious in the deep section from the crossunder "T" to the jump at courtyard. The 3 Ts are still there. Line is still in pretty good shape.