Printable View
Just heard on BBC that a boys' football team and their coach had been exploring a cave in Thailand when rising waters trapped them inside. Search is underway.
Considering CNN's image of the rescue divers, perhaps it's time to call in Forrest and friends.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/24/asia/...ped/index.html
https://gulfnews.com/news/asia/footb...land-1.2241717
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44598079
Fingers crossed that everyone emerges OK.
I can think of a few suggested changes to their equipment configuration
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg
I have been called to several rescues due to high water. In all cases, the water level came down before we could actually do anything. I do agree that single tanks is scary, but there was one successful rescue done in Georgia by someone with a single 80. He brought them out one at a time on his octopus. It is hard for me to imagine he had enough gas to take out a dozed scared, cold people.
Maybe they have incredible cave fills and no burst disks. :yawinkle:Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I talked with friend in Thailand. The Navy rescue team were dispatched, unfortunately, they do not trained for this. However, the volunteer cave divers and instructors are on their way and some are already there, waiting for the authorities to ask and grant them permission to go and searching for the group.
Please keep them in your prayers
I wonder the likelihood of any permanent line existing in a cave that's normally dry. That water looks like you won't be able to do much of anything without line to follow.
Sounds hopeful Thanks for the updateQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Today's update from CBS News - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-military-joins-search-for-missing-thailand-soccer-team/
"Three British cave diving experts made a second attempt at entering the cave through chimneys Thursday after they tried to go in through the main entrance on the day before but were turned around by rushing flood waters."Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyver
I hope these are British CDG (Cave Diving Group) divers, but there is no discussion of it on their website.
On a tangent, I submitted our article on sump rescue to UWS two weeks ago but haven't heard anything back yet.
Latest article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44639087
I wonder who the British cave divers are.
Robert Charlie Harper, Richard William Stanton and John Volamthen from Derbyshire Cave Rescue Organisation (DCRO)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
I just got that same information from the CDG. I know Rick and John. I have actually dived with Rick. Not that is makes much difference, but Rick Stantton is Welsh section, not Derbyshire.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaiCaveDiver
And now the US military has joined the search. https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=56226527
Today's story, they are still trapped, but the community is posting their love for the boys.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44652576
I was just contacted by a Canadian television network. They want to do an interview with me about the rescue attempt.
Are any of these military rescue people actually trained in Cave Diving. Seems to me they are wasting precious time and should send in people who actually Cave and sump dive not useless military Divers.
I wonder why no American cave divers or organizations have been asked to join the efforts. Like, perhaps members of the IUCRR. Would this be unreasonable? This has been going on for days now, plenty of time to employ other resources, right?
There are cave divers and rescue groups in countries other than the US. If the cdg guys are having trouble, so would americansQuote:
Originally Posted by diverdarren
Although Thailand itself was not a colony, the general south east asia around it was under heavy British influence. There is still a strong presence to this day. I would be surprised if the idea of invoking American cave diving community?s help ever came up. Someone knowledgeable would have needed to chime in.Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdarren
It’s good to have options. Irrespective of whether it was advisable or not, the recent Finnish recovery shows there is a graded assessment of risk and different parties may arrive at different conclusions that influence actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
I volunteered to go over 3 days ago through a FB contact, could be there at no cost in 24 hours - heard no reply........
The British team has the number one cave diver in the world, and the other two are very good too. FWIW, all three are also "dry" cavers, so they are much more qualified for this kind of rescue. I can only think of half a dozen US cave divers up to the task.
Well I was just interviewed by the Canadian TV network for about 5 minutes over a cellphone. Did anyone on here in Canada happen to be watching?
Ben Reymenants is also there to help. He is a belgisn but lives there. He was my cave instructor.
I hope they get out alive.
I am aware of the Brits on scene, and the difficulties that they may be encountering, but I see no reason to believe that U.S. help could not be valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdarren
Gotcha, it just sounded a little Team America #1'ish. Especially considering this isn't a cave diving rescue. It's a sump dive rescue, and the US is by far not the best choice for a sump diving rescue. I can agree the more heads the better, but when we're talking $1000s in flight costs and getting equipment over it isn't the most plausible.
It seems florida cave divers forget there are tons of european countries with cave and cave diving.
Last time I heard from the cave support team, most parts of the cave were underwater now. On the way in seem like a one-way tunnel, but, there're other tunnels once you turn around and the flow is really strong from the continuous rainning.
Ben had to abort the dive when he was about a kilometer from site where they hope to found the children.
https://www.facebook.com/10001345041...6144340756081/
The video in this link show the entrance to 2nd chamber.
I saw this on facebook earlier today. Might be worth trying to reach out to this person.Quote:
Originally Posted by caveflyer
"RTN S.E.A.L. #Thamluang urgently needs STRONG diving volunteers!!!!!
Before volunteering, carefully read the requirements and job descriptions detailed below. Competency is compulsory in this operation.
What you need to do: transport supplies of scuba tanks, food, drinking water, first aid kit, etc. from the cave entrance to help set up the new S.E.AL. Rescue Base in Chamber No. 3, approximately 3km from the entrance.
You must be able to: know how to breathe through a regulator and pull yourself using the guide rope against cold (~ 20C) and strong current, in low visibility without panicking. You don't need to be a certified cave diver, but you must be able to hike the steep slope with full gear and the said supplies (20-30 kg) for a few hundred meters.
You must bring your own diving equipment (fins not necessary) including an underwater torch with a burn time of at least 5 hours, and you should also bring your own helmet.
The passage is approximately 2-3 km long and you will be submerged for a distance of 10-15m at each flooded point. In addition, there is one very narrow channel where you will have to dismount your gear to continue. The last hike is up a 45 degrees slope that is slippery and muddy (see diagram).
If you think you are qualified, and will be not be a burden to the rescue operation, kindly contact K.Top 0875027414, LineID: topks233.
The dive team at Tham Luang reserve the rights to choose applicants. You must be ready to mobilise ASAP and there is no travel and accommodation budget, but the locals are very kind and may provide free food and beverages!"
Didn't catch it. Which network was it??Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Update from Blue Label Diving's (Ben Reymenants) FB page
Looks like they have about 1200 m left of line to lay before they reach the area where they suspect the boys to be.
Seems a few shops from Koh Tao have donated SM gear for the effort as well...
https://www.facebook.com/bigbluetech...597612/?type=3
Here's the link to the FB post (with rough sketch of the cave system)...Quote:
Originally Posted by BluEclipse17
https://www.facebook.com/digitalay/p...29237023796534
Seems they need volunteers to hump gear through the sumps.
The help that has been described today on this forum as being needed is exactly what I have been thinking that the American cave divers might be able to provide. The divers on scene making this push are likely becoming fatigued and fresh divers could make a serious difference in this attempt. I would encourage any divers on this forum who think that they meet the qualifications and have the time and ability to help, to please make arrangements to do so immediately. I'm not saying that this is the right thing for all of us, and I don't think anyone who cannot provide help needs to make any excuses, but if any of you can, don't let the nay-sayers talk you out of helping.
Can someone enlighten me please.
What is taking so long? According to the provided map it should not take 10 days to reach the 3rd chamber. There are a few short sumps and some dry caving passages between.
Reading CNN reports they are bringing 600 tanks and are staging tanks every 25 meters (for what?) bringing heaps of gear and still have only barely reached chamber 3 and made no further pushes beyond. It seems to me that the priority should be to reach the trapped kids and at the same time prepare base camps etc.
Is this waste of time due to incompetence of navy divers and an attitude of ?the army knows best? instead of having real cavers and dump Divers be put in charge. The pics of navy ?Divers? shows open water gear.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
They have CDG members there from Great Brittan. Very qualified cavers/sump divers. They are having issues with flow, etc. Read back through the messages in this thread. It might help you understand.
CTV news station.Quote:
Originally Posted by crookshanky
I see in the above article from CTV that Australian divers are on scene. I wonder if they are military, or CDAA. There are a couple of really good divers in the CDAA (Cave Divers Association of Australia) that can handle low visibility, and high current.
I did read that but every news report says the navy divers are pushing etc.. it seems to be that untrained army divers would be a liability and even a hazard and even more so if conditions are difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by rblackburn
Seems like a colossal waste of time, the CDG divers and other cave trained divers should be the only ones pushing.
Seems to me that this rescue is organized by the army using useless navy divers and various other incompetent army personnel when actual cave rescuers and sump divers should be in charge of organizing this rescue.
This is a prettu good write up today....Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ZCI?li=BBnbcA1
The problem is that it has become a "media circus". Public outcry form Thai citizens require the government do something. What is happening is the appearance that something is being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
The British team realized it was futile to do an underwater search with the monsoons continuing. They are the ones combing the hills looking for a back entrance, as they are "dry" cavers that became sump divers.
You mean Floyd Collins all over..... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I hadn't thought of that, and I hope there is a better outcome :(Quote:
Originally Posted by twaldo
Initial reports now saying they got to them and 13 of them are ok.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44688909
Looks like some good news out of Thailand
That is awesome news!
Boys found alive!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverhippi
another one.. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44688909
That is great news! Thanks for posting it.
Now they just have to find a way to get them out, short of waiting until the end of monsoon season.
Thank God! This could still be a very tough extraction, though.
Yes, because the Seals had to remove gear to get through a tight passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdarren
The good news is the Seals can take the kids food and warm clothing, etc.
Based on the equipment shown in pictures those "seals" have no business in a cave, hope that none of them die as this isn't over yet.
That's a long time for those kids to be down there, glad they are alive....they've got to be hungry as heck.
https://www.facebook.com/ThaiSEAL/vi...18M9qg&fref=nf
Looks like they let the sump divers push through....
I don't think it was Seals that reached the boys. According to this report https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44688909 it was the British sump divers that reached them.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/gen...cave.#cxrecs_s
in cave Photos
It was the Brits that found them. You can clearly hear in the video here: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/02/a...ntl/index.html
Fantastic news! Kudos to the British divers and the support team.
Strong work by all involved! Now for the getting them out part...
Great news! Unfortunately it's not over. There's still a lot of to be done to get them food, medical, and safely out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44692813
The Thai army has made a statement that the only way to get the boys out before the end of the rain season (October) will be to teach them to dive. Yikes!
I imagine that they will not try it for at least a few days while the children get nourished back to relative health. From what I read, they will need to navigate some no-mount zero-vis passages (not clear how long). Maybe a good approach might be to rig full face masks with communications equipment on extra long hoses and have a cave diver manage the gas supply from behind while in touch contact. Experiment with a technique of this sort with trained divers until you get it just right before attempting with a child. Make sure the guideline is strong enough to not risk being broken and put lots of markers on it every few meters. In the meanwhile have instructors work with the kids in the "confined water" area where they are trapped to get them reasonably comfortable in the proceures.
I am confident the British cavers will figure out a way to do it and it will be a feat of ingenuity and perseverance. All fingers crossed!
As the story played out, I wondered if Rick Stanton were involved. Yay to him and his buddy, John V. Super awesome. And as critically important as what they did, what I can't understand is why I've only seen a couple of 4" hoses modestly pumping out the (now) sump. If they've got >1000 rescue workers, why can't they get a few more pumps out there? I'm sure this is a question due to my ignorance, but I do find it curious.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44690688
This story is about the Rescue divers.
More info about the rescue efforts.
https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-44681374
Seems everybody is in pretty good shape, though of course the adventure is not over until they get them out. Does anybody know the air temperature of the cave? Must be fairly high, as it seems everybody was lightly dressed.
Great job sump divers!
Relatively high, but the news story mentions they had their jerseys pulled over their knees.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
Somewhere (Facebook or a news story), I read it was in the low to mid 70s F.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Sounds like they are going to try and dive them out.... (hopefully last viable option)
Local article on it.....
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/gen...re-water-rises
That is pretty scary! From the description of the narrow channel, I am not sure I would even want to dive it. The Seals couldn't get through. Only the British sump divers have been through.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex1836
Not to mention, what sort of thermal protection will they have?
Has anything like this ever been attempted? Taking anyone, children or otherwise who do not know how to swim, and of course do not know how to dive, and Diving them through some very arduous passages conditions out of a cave. They don't know how to swim, let alone dive. Hats off to them if they can pull this off.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
One of the stories mentions Anmar Mirza as a cave rescue expert. His name is new to me. Is he well known in cave rescue circles?
Anmar is the National Coordinator (iow head cheese) of the National Cave Rescue Commission. It's the only large-scale organized cave rescue resource we have in the US. NCRC is an organization of the NSS.Quote:
Originally Posted by oms121
Dragging people through sumps has been done before, but only on much smaller scales as far as I'm aware. Usually done with a FFM for non-divers. Scary stuff on any scale.
Finding a full face mask for children would be problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
Better to drag a few cave trained physicians, teachers, counselors, and prayer people to the kids and help them wait it out. I don't think that even Edd could swim that many kids out safely in that crap. I'll bet plenty of folks would volunteer to spend a few days with those kids til they can walk out.
Sure, but with all the media attention going about I'm sure the few people that own them would gladly trade for a spot in the limelight. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
They are talking about letting the kids swim through the narrowest passage one at a time, unaccompanied. There isn't room for 2 at a time.
The ignorance in some of the comments is astounding. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Sorry, been on the road a few days. Just catching up with the news.
As I understand it, the Soccer team, 13 yr old boys have all been found safe. They are trapped behind flood waters that will continue for up to 4 months. They are trapped over 1 mile back in a cave that requires diving thru major restrictions in zero vis. One rescue plan so far is to take 13 yr olds, some of whom can't even swim, and teach them to be expert cave divers and swim out thru major restrictions in zero vis? Did I miss anything?
Two questions: What are they smoking? and Where can I get some?
Have you thought about what the risks are waiting 4 months for the rainy season to end? Unsanitary conditions where they are. One or more of the boys falls and is injured or becomes sick for any reason that would require an immediate removal. What happens then? Lets say 1/2 the exit is walking - 1/2 would be in water. Some of the water would be a surface swim - but could easily be done in an inflatable raft or something like that - that would leave a portion of underwater passage. None of the boys need to swim. If they are being escorted out then the just need to hold on the cave diver. The area with restrictions - they might be tethered to a rope that pulls them thru the rustication.
NPR and BBC today have given segments of air time to the dramatic location of the Thai football team and their coach in the Thailand cave. There have been some very positive things said about cave divers, a pleasant change from the sensationalized negative press usually accorded the cave diving community.
Though we know the Brit team that got to the kids were cave diving cavers (Brit versions of Forrest and company, right?) , the segments I've heard refers to them as "cave divers." When the interviewers fished about the dangers of cave diving, the experts being interviewed always explained that cave divers are skilled, experienced, highly-trained, and serious about assessing and mitigating risks.
Nice to have positive PR for a change.
Now let's keep our collective fingers crossed they can get the kids out safely, with no casualties among the rescued or the rescuers.
- Sid
Anmar Mirza was just on Tucker Carlson?s show. Did anyone else catch his interview? He did not seem to do a very good job explaining the challenge of bringing a group of non diving (many unable to swim) children out through multiple zero visibility restrictions in an overhead environment.
He also touted the Navy Seals rather than the British experts as having the training and skills needed to conduct this type rescue and I don?t think he gave the Brits any credit. Was that likely done to to be complementary to the Thai divers or for some other reason?
As I don?t know him, I don?t want to just be critical but am curious why the leading cave rescue expert in the US would provide the information he did. Others may see his responses differently and I?m interested in others? thoughts.
Uh, Forrest is a member of the British CDG (Cave Diving Group). That makes him "one of them", not the other way around :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyver
There are positives and negatives about what should happen next; obviously the trapped people will have to be rehabilitated with food, liquids , rest , etc., for several days before they are ready to be moved. This will give the rescue team more time to plan and arrange a coordinated effort. The soccer team, although young, are not small children who cannot be taught, they are of an age that many youngsters have been taught to scuba dive, and must be pretty tough, as they had already survived nine days trapped in a cave with very little supplies. I believe that they can be taught to scuba, given proper instruction as to how to survive this particular circumstance, There exit will be with the current, not against it, they will have a line to hold on to and to follow, there should be sufficient breathing gas in place, and some excellent help by their side to help deal with contingencies. Full face masks for smaller divers exist, and should be most valuable for the safety of the unskilled divers. Thermal protection should be available and adequate for the extraction dive, and there sac rates should be good, considering they are all athletes and hopefully in good health by the time the dives could occur. Of course, the poor vis will be a negative, as well as the possible negotiation of a restriction which may require gear removal, but possibly not considering the size of the divers, and the possibility of configuring them with small tanks and possibly no-mount systems for this portion of the extraction. Not an easy task ahead, to be sure, but to me it seems doable.
My guess (without any actual facts) would be that the sumps are already laid with rope instead of thin, cave line. That would have helped the medical staff who probably weren't cave certified, plus getting ready for everyone else they figure will be going in and out. I also figure they're working on ALL possible contingencies. Teaching them to get out of this one situation by diving the sumps is one of several options. While the rest of things are being worked (more supplies coming in), more pumping of the water, etc, they can be getting the boys accustomed to being in dark water without panicking.
Yes, Forrest, it sounds like a zoo. One of today's newscasts had a report that the Thai government plans to turn the "death cave" into a tourist attraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Unfortunately the Aussies are not CDAA but the AFP (Australian Federal Police)...not sure who the AFP individuals areQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Why can't a mine type shaft not be sunk?
News from this morning: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ive/757531002/
The are starting to train the boys to dive.
Not very surprising. It would become a tourist attraction just because of curiosity :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by cavedivingwoman
A different aspect to zero-to-hero. The cave/sump divers have done a tremendous job there.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
It's 700 m to 1 km from the place the boys are located and the surface (the land rises up from the entrance of the cave 4 km away). It's a mighty thick rock layer to do a cave radio location, not to mention a long distance to drill a hole big enough for a person to get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dive Africa
Anmar is a good guy and very experienced with cave rescue. He's diver a but only AOW. I gave a presentation on sump rescue at NCRC's week-long training this year which he attended. I'd say he has knowledge of the basics in this area, but this is why the NCRC has a committee of experts in various areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oms121
Latest update: https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/04/asia/...ntl/index.html
It looks like there may be another entrance nearby. The boys said they could hear dogs barking, and chickens crowing.
Did that happen, Forrest? I'd love to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW