Election nss

Those of us who are members of the NSS have received an Email for the annual election.
If you have scrolled through the names of candidates you would have noticed that one of our current CDS BOD Member , TJ Muller, is one of the candidates.
TJ has been the liaison between the NSS and the CDS for several years. This would make a great fit for the CDS to have a person like TJ on the BOD of the NSS.
Please take time to read the platform statements of the candidates and vote for the person of your choice.:arrowred

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Originally Posted by shellmoundal

Those of us who are members of the NSS have received an Email for the annual election.
If you have scrolled through the names of candidates you would have noticed that one of our current CDS BOD Member , TJ Muller, is one of the candidates.
TJ has been the liaison between the NSS and the CDS for several years. This would make a great fit for the CDS to have a person like TJ on the BOD of the NSS.
Please take time to read the platform statements of the candidates and vote for the person of your choice.:arrowred

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I am afraid I don't agree with this, and I don't intend to vote for TJ.

What I said was to vote for the person of your choice. Not sure what you know that I don't know Forrest?

This would be an interesting conversation and I think should be allowed and not moderated. I know TJ is on here so it's not like he couldn't respond.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

This would be an interesting conversation and I think should be allowed and not moderated. I know TJ is on here so it's not like he couldn't respond.

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Agree!

I read TJ's platform statement and had totally forgotten about the Alachua Sink thing. That was pretty cool.

TJ, what are your plans for getting the NSS more involved with the CDS?

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Agree!

I read TJ's platform statement and had totally forgotten about the Alachua Sink thing. That was pretty cool.

TJ, what are your plans for getting the NSS more involved with the CDS?

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I have the Vice President of the NSS attending our(NSS-CDS's) upcoming workshop in Mariana for starters, and the NSS will have a table there.

As for as a discussion, having one here would be tough with Forrest being a moderator. I think this post is safe until morning as Forrest goes to bed around 5pm.

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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

I have the Vice President of the NSS attending our(NSS-CDS's) upcoming workshop in Mariana for starters, and the NSS will have a table there.

As for as a discussion, having one here would be tough with Forrest being a moderator. I think this post is safe until morning as Forrest goes to bed around 5pm.

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TJ, my issue with you is voting against changing the anti NSS bylaws that the past chair got pushed through.

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Originally Posted by shellmoundal

Those of us who are members of the NSS have received an Email for the annual election.
If you have scrolled through the names of candidates you would have noticed that one of our current CDS BOD Member , TJ Muller, is one of the candidates.
TJ has been the liaison between the NSS and the CDS for several years. This would make a great fit for the CDS to have a person like TJ on the BOD of the NSS.
Please take time to read the platform statements of the candidates and vote for the person of your choice.:arrowred

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On the subject of the NSS, the CDS board used to be proactive in getting people nominated for NSS awards like the fellow award etc. There are some members doing some amazing things that qualify for other awards. If you want the NSS membership to accept having a cave diver as a board member, things like this are important, because right now we are that section that is unknown and isolated in the eyes of the majority of the dry cavers. As you will find getting elected to most boards is about name recognition, and presently nobody on the CDS has any recognition, other than forming the NSS/CDS and CDS. I say these things having worked on the NSS Strategic Planning committee for several years, and interacting with their board, and for the most part the CDS has a huge membership base compared to some of the grottos,but we just exist, not active, which doesn't produce the mass membership embracing the CDS.

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Agree!

I read TJ's platform statement and had totally forgotten about the Alachua Sink thing. That was pretty cool.

TJ, what are your plans for getting the NSS more involved with the CDS?

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In addition, I now have the NSS attorney involved with putting the CDS properties in stand-alone corporations, so we never have to look down the barrel of insolvency, like we did during the last lawsuit.

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Originally Posted by FW

TJ, my issue with you is voting against changing the anti NSS bylaws that the past chair got pushed through.

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I will cover this later as it will be a long post.

See- good discussion.

And I seriously doubt Forrest will moderate the thread that he's an active participator in.

Aside from personal gripes........ wouldn’t it be a good idea to have someone who has served on the CDS side on the NSS board?
I don’t see where it could hurt, it may just be a good asset. Good luck TJ.

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Originally Posted by jblack

Aside from personal gripes........ wouldn’t it be a good idea to have someone who has served on the CDS side on the NSS board?
I don’t see where it could hurt, it may just be a good asset. Good luck TJ.

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This is true. Ironically the CDS is the largest grotto, and has the largest voting group,but rarely if ever do we exercise it. We only have a representative at the national convention by default, because someone connects with their dry caving identity,but our voice at the congress of grottos etc goes wasted, or giving identity to the CDS with an informational kiosk. So I would say having TJ, or someone similar there is good,but that person now has an identity to serve the whole NSS membership, not the CDS exclusively, so this leaves the CDS with the continued dilemma of being the largest group in the NSS, and squandering their opportunities. As I mentioned previously, there are opportunities to get outstanding CDS members who are doing great work recognition at the national level,but for the last 10 years it hasn't occurred. What I have always felt is a pity is that most CDS board members don't take the time to reach out and develop a relationship with the NSS,or understand the organization. The NSS isn't the evil empire,but it is really an organization that we want to embrace and utilize their resources, which are very far reaching.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

This is true. Ironically the CDS is the largest grotto, and has the largest voting group,but rarely if ever do we exercise it. We only have a representative at the national convention by default, because someone connects with their dry caving identity,but our voice at the congress of grottos etc goes wasted, or giving identity to the CDS with an informational kiosk. So I would say having TJ, or someone similar there is good,but that person now has an identity to serve the whole NSS membership, not the CDS exclusively, so this leaves the CDS with the continued dilemma of being the largest group in the NSS, and squandering their opportunities. As I mentioned previously, there are opportunities to get outstanding CDS members who are doing great work recognition at the national level,but for the last 10 years it hasn't occurred. What I have always felt is a pity is that most CDS board members don't take the time to reach out and develop a relationship with the NSS,or understand the organization. The NSS isn't the evil empire,but it is really an organization that we want to embrace and utilize their resources, which are very far reaching.

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Well said.

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I will cover this later as it will be a long post.

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Don't leaving us hanging TJ! We all want to know your thoughts on the matter. I, for one, am still unsure of the state of the current NSS/CDS split. It seems to be in an unfinished state and I'm curious of the direction of both sides.

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Originally Posted by jlillest

I, for one, am still unsure of the state of the current NSS/CDS split. It seems to be in an unfinished state and I'm curious of the direction of both sides.

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Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

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This is why I’m supporting TJ I believe he will help strengthen the relationship between the Two.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

See- good discussion.

And I seriously doubt Forrest will moderate the thread that he's an active participator in.

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There's no need for anyone to moderate so long as people keep their discussions civil. There's nothing wrong with a difference of opinions. It's the ranting that leads to breaking of the forum rules that leads to moderation.

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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

I have the Vice President of the NSS attending our(NSS-CDS's) upcoming workshop in Mariana for starters, and the NSS will have a table there.

As for as a discussion, having one here would be tough with Forrest being a moderator. I think this post is safe until morning as Forrest goes to bed around 5pm.

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The Workshop has passed. I think you meant to say The International Cave Divers Conference, in May.

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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

As for as a discussion, having one here would be tough with Forrest being a moderator. I think this post is safe until morning as Forrest goes to bed around 5pm.

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Moderator's note- this would not be a problem, because there have been discussions in the past where moderators have recused themselves. Please allow a discussion to occur, as always, kept civil.

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Originally Posted by FW

TJ, my issue with you is voting against changing the anti NSS bylaws that the past chair got pushed through.

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Hi Forrest! Good to hear from you. To be clear, the past chair (me) "pushed" nothing through. There was nothing "anti NSS" about the bylaw change unless you consider anything pro NSS-CDS to be anti NSS. The changes were presented to the membership for a vote and the will of the membership was carried out. Now perhaps there are some who believe that their personal wishes supersede those of the members or perhaps that the members aren't savvy enough to know what is best for them but I believe the BOD serves at the pleasure of the members. As such it is the BODs mission to carry out their will and not to do as it pleases and ignore them. Anyone who thinks otherwise should not be on any board of any Non profit.

In years gone by a small group of well meaning people ran the NSS-CDS into the ground with a string of bad decisions which almost led to its demise. Those bylaw changes were designed to put the NSS-CDS in a better situation should another adverse circumstance arise and to help it expand its numbers. It was done at the suggestion of the NSS after TJ was sent to one of their meetings. It seems that you and a small handful of members are unhappy about this. That is your privilege. Diversity is what makes an organization strong.

If the NSSCDS is to grow and prosper it can not have a board filled by the same people with the same stale ideas year after year for decades. It needs fresh blood with new ideas which is why it desperately needs to have term limits established, not the faux revolving door limits it currently has.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

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agree...

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

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Agreed. The closer we remain to the rest of the NSS, the better.

Joe, thanks for the good response. Some questions:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

In years gone by a small group of well meaning people ran the NSS-CDS into the ground with a string of bad decisions which almost led to its demise.

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Can you provide some examples of these bad decisions? I'm aware of the major problems from decades ago, the ones that made the CDS look like the NACD of 2-3 years ago, but I'm not aware of anything in the recent decade which was caused through board member malice.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Those bylaw changes were designed to put the NSS-CDS in a better situation should another adverse circumstance arise and to help it expand its numbers. It was done at the suggestion of the NSS after TJ was sent to one of their meetings.

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Can you offer more details on who in the NSS suggested the change and what parts they suggested be changed? The bylaw change wasn't a singular thing, it offered several different changes and I'm not sure I understand which part was the suggestion. I've had discussions with several people across the NSS power structure (including the IO Committee) and I haven't met anyone that was aware of it until the vote was published on the website.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

If the NSSCDS is to grow and prosper it can not have a board filled by the same people with the same stale ideas year after year for decades. It needs fresh blood with new ideas which is why it desperately needs to have term limits established, not the faux revolving door limits it currently has.

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The CDS currently has term limits in it's bylaws. Which part of this are you looking to change? While I can agree with not allowing people to run indefinitely, there are controls for this in place and I believe a democratic process should handle any problems arising from it anyway, right?

This has been a good discussion, I'm looking forward to learning more.

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Joe, thanks for the good response. Some questions:

Can you provide some examples of these bad decisions? I'm aware of the major problems from decades ago, the ones that made the CDS look like the NACD of 2-3 years ago, but I'm not aware of anything in the recent decade which was caused through board member malice.

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No malice is suggested and I'm not pointing a finger at any one board or decade. That said, one bad decision was to title properties with dive able sinkholes on them in the name of the NSS-CDS with no conservation easements. This was suggested and voted down because they wanted to use the properties as collateral for future purchases. Of course no bank would ever finance undeveloped property, especially one with a sink hole on it but evidently no one researched that.

Another was to move the storage warehouse to Tallahassee where there was only one person available to manage and access it when the overwhelming majority of active members were in the Ocala to Lake City region. *Very* impractical and counter productive. The result was that there was untold dollars wasted in unnecessary travel and in inventory we didn't know we had because it was never properly tracked. Then there was the purchase of *palletts* of books that no sane person would ever expect to sell in a reasonable time frame. We are still offering these for sale years later.

Or how about the manuscripts for a new cave book that were donated to the NSS-CDS by numerous authors and then saved on private computers. They were allegedly stored on a cloud server. When I asked for the files to put them on the CDS computers because it was CDS property I was told there was a computer crash and all was lost. You never store files in one place on one PC, especially one you have no control over. Over time many things similar to this have been changed and the NSS-CDS has gravitated towards being run like a business that uses professional service where ever possible so that its critical operations are not dependent upon on one person or organization

I could go on but I think you get my point. It was being run like a private good old boys club - (sometimes - not all boards conducted themselves that way).

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Can you offer more details on who in the NSS suggested the change and what parts they suggested be changed? The bylaw change wasn't a singular thing, it offered several different changes and I'm not sure I understand which part was the suggestion. I've had discussions with several people across the NSS power structure (including the IO Committee) and I haven't met anyone that was aware of it until the vote was published on the website.

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OK. You will have to ask TJ that question because we sent him to the NSS annual meeting to ask for help with the lawsuit. Our Treasurer at the time also asked them to not raise the dues to CDS members. Their response was that they had a building to pay for and could not give the CDS a break on the dues. TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

Now, consider that for an NSS-CDS membership the net figure on dues was about $3-5 annually after deducting expenses. Also consider that we were at the tail end of a lawsuit that bled us dry and in the event of an unfavorable decision we had nothing to go to the table with. There would be no viable option we could offer as a payout settlement over time. The alternative membership was the closest thing we could use to create a predictable revenue stream so we could offer to pay a given amount on a schedule. Were there an unfavorable decision and we couldn't come to an agreement a liquidation of assets could and most likely would be forced.

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The CDS currently has term limits in it's bylaws. Which part of this are you looking to change? While I can agree with not allowing people to run indefinitely, there are controls for this in place and I believe a democratic process should handle any problems arising from it anyway, right?

This has been a good discussion, I'm looking forward to learning more.

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The term limits in place are for no more than 3 consecutive terms. Then you can sit out one year and you could start the 6 year cycle all over again. If you and I ran on alternate years one of us could be chair indefinitely. This is what destroyed our sister organization.

There may be some that are wondering why I am revealing all of this. First, the membership has a right to know if they ask and second, the notion that I "pushed" anything through suggests it was done in an underhanded way which is an absolute falsehood. Nothing was traded or bargained for by anyone and they guy that says I "pushed" things through did not vote against it because even he realized it was necessary. The only thing those bylaw changes did was place the NSS-CDS in a better position should things go awry again.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

No malice is suggested and I'm not pointing a finger at any one board or decade. That said, one bad decision was to title properties with dive able sinkholes on them in the name of the NSS-CDS with no conservation easements. This was suggested and voted down because they wanted to use the properties as collateral for future purchases. Of course no bank would ever finance undeveloped property, especially one with a sink hole on it but evidently no one researched that.

Another was to move the storage warehouse to Tallahassee where there was only one person available to manage and access it when the overwhelming majority of active members were in the Ocala to Lake City region. *Very* impractical and counter productive. The result was that there was untold dollars wasted in unnecessary travel and in inventory we didn't know we had because it was never properly tracked. Then there was the purchase of *palletts* of books that no sane person would ever expect to sell in a reasonable time frame. We are still offering these for sale years later.

Or how about the manuscripts for a new cave book that were donated to the NSS-CDS by numerous authors and then saved on private computers. They were allegedly stored on a cloud server. When I asked for the files to put them on the CDS computers because it was CDS property I was told there was a computer crash and all was lost. You never store files in one place on one PC, especially one you have no control over. Over time many things similar to this have been changed and the NSS-CDS has gravitated towards being run like a business that uses professional service where ever possible so that its critical operations are not dependent upon on one person or organization

I could go on but I think you get my point. It was being run like a private good old boys club - (sometimes - not all boards conducted themselves that way).



OK. You will have to ask TJ that question because we sent him to the NSS annual meeting to ask for help with the lawsuit. Our Treasurer at the time also asked them to not raise the dues to CDS members. Their response was that they had a building to pay for and could not give the CDS a break on the dues. TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

Now, consider that for an NSS-CDS membership the net figure on dues was about $3-5 annually after deducting expenses. Also consider that we were at the tail end of a lawsuit that bled us dry and in the event of an unfavorable decision we had nothing to go to the table with. There would be no viable option we could offer as a payout settlement over time. The alternative membership was the closest thing we could use to create a predictable revenue stream so we could offer to pay a given amount on a schedule. Were there an unfavorable decision and we couldn't come to an agreement a liquidation of assets could and most likely would be forced.



The term limits in place are for no more than 3 consecutive terms. Then you can sit out one year and you could start the 6 year cycle all over again. If you and I ran on alternate years one of us could be chair indefinitely. This is what destroyed our sister organization.

There may be some that are wondering why I am revealing all of this. First, the membership has a right to know if they ask and second, the notion that I "pushed" anything through suggests it was done in an underhanded way which is an absolute falsehood. Nothing was traded or bargained for by anyone and they guy that says I "pushed" things through did not vote against it because even he realized it was necessary. The only thing those bylaw changes did was place the NSS-CDS in a better position should things go awry again.

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Joe, thank you for responding here. Firstly, thank you, and anybody who has served on the CDS board, it is a hard job, that can be more frustrating than rewarding. You and I have had some candid discussions, and I have always felt we have gone away with mutual respect,but I always valued your input. You and the board at that time saw the CDS through an uncertain future with the lawsuit, did what you thought was best, and as a result the CDS has a future. I think the new board that will be seated soon, needs to know their past to understand how not to repeat past mistakes, plus they need to have goals for the organization for the future. The CDS was aligned with the NSS by Sheck, versus starting a stand alone organization like the NACD at the time. Having this alignment with a much larger national organization has its advantage,but rarely has the CDS exploited it. My challenge to the next board, try to understand the NSS, and what benefits of resource sharing can occur. Besides the NSS doing dues processing, in the past they have published books for the CDS, award recognition for CDS members at the national level, grants, purchased properties etc.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

...There was nothing "anti NSS" about the bylaw change unless you consider anything pro NSS-CDS to be anti NSS. ..

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You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

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Originally Posted by FW

You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

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One thing that is being ignored is the NSS only allows this for 1 year then you must join the CDS if you want to stay active with the grotto. I think it was meant to be a way for people to try out the grotto and hopefully join after the 1 year period. I don't think the CDS is using it this way and to comply with the NSS they need to track these members and I doubt that is done. I also doubt the number of divers has increased substantially at Cow due to this change.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

One thing that is being ignored is the NSS only allows this for 1 year then you must join the CDS if you want to stay active with the grotto.

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I think you mean you can be a CDS member for only 1 year, and then have to have a NSS membership. That is correct per the IO policy https://caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-D.pdf

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I think you mean you can be a CDS member for only 1 year, and then have to have a NSS membership. That is correct per the IO policy https://caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-D.pdf

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Yes I mistyped sitting in traffic.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Joe, thank you for responding here. Firstly, thank you, and anybody who has served on the CDS board, it is a hard job, that can be more frustrating than rewarding. You and I have had some candid discussions, and I have always felt we have gone away with mutual respect,but I always valued your input. You and the board at that time saw the CDS through an uncertain future with the lawsuit, did what you thought was best, and as a result the CDS has a future. I think the new board that will be seated soon, needs to know their past to understand how not to repeat past mistakes, plus they need to have goals for the organization for the future. The CDS was aligned with the NSS by Sheck, versus starting a stand alone organization like the NACD at the time. Having this alignment with a much larger national organization has its advantage,but rarely has the CDS exploited it. My challenge to the next board, try to understand the NSS, and what benefits of resource sharing can occur. Besides the NSS doing dues processing, in the past they have published books for the CDS, award recognition for CDS members at the national level, grants, purchased properties etc.

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Thank you Kelly. The BOD was faced with tough decisions and we did what we thought was best for the NSS-CDS and I think it is in good shape as a result of those decisions.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Thank you Kelly. The BOD was faced with tough decisions and we did what we thought was best for the NSS-CDS and I think it is in good shape as a result of those decisions.

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I agree with Joe that the CDS is in better shape today. I also agree the CDS needs to not have dinosaurs on the BoD year after year with the same stale ideas.

As far as "pushing" through the membership by-law, it was voted in the a majority of the membership. Sour Grapes comes to mind...

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Originally Posted by FW

You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

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That was not anti NSS but pro CDS. Our job was to protect the CDS first. That statement was put in so if a few guys like you were on the NSS board they couldn't arbitrarily undo what we did. Nothing more. None of this would have come about if we were not in survival mode but we were and the reason we were is because we were being run with a 1970s mentality in the 21st century. All the board did was remove us from the time warp we were trapped in.

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Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

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I never heard any suggestions other than negativity. What would you have called it? A non NSS NSS_CDS membership?

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

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"A lot of money"? You can be an NSS member for $40 per year. That's not a lot of money for any technical diver, especially for a foreign visitor who has spent a lot of money to come to this country and presumably has spent considerable funds on equipment and training. It's quite reasonable IMO to ask visitors to help support the organizations that do so much to keep caves open.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

It needs fresh blood with new ideas which is why it desperately needs to have term limits established, not the faux revolving door limits it currently has.

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Was there some reason you were not able to change this during you were the chair?

Thank you,

David

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Originally Posted by bigdave

"A lot of money"? You can be an NSS member for $40 per year. That's not a lot of money for any technical diver, especially for a foreign visitor who has spent a lot of money to come to this country and presumably has spent considerable funds on equipment and training. It's quite reasonable IMO to ask visitors to help support the organizations that do so much to keep caves open.

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Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

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Was there some reason you were not able to change this during you were the chair?

Thank you,

David

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I proposed putting it on the ballot but the board voted it down.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

the CDS only sees $3-5.

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Isn't this more of a function of UWS? I remember when I was on the BOD, UWS was eating up 100% of the dues. One day I hope UWS could go digital, and save the CDS a fortune.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Isn't this more of a function of UWS? I remember when I was on the BOD, UWS was eating up 100% of the dues. One day I hope UWS could go digital, and save the CDS a fortune.

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I agree with the numbers but a survey of the membership indicated that most wanted a printed UWS. We were afraid that we would lose a good portion of our membership if we went digital. Many of the older members who were no longer cave diving and many of the members who lived out of state and by virtue of geography do not have the same direct contact with the sport we Floridians enjoy really want that printed magazine and if it was at all possible we did not want to change that.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

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No, the $70 does more good towards keeping caves open because the caving community gets more money overall.

If TJ agrees with this sentiment then I surely could not vote for him to be part of the NSS leadership.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

I proposed putting it on the ballot but the board voted it down.

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Fair 'nuf.

I would also add that when we formed the alternative membership we did not raise the CDS portion of the NSS-CDS dues. Doing so would have put them is the $90 range and we feared it would trigger an exodus from the NSS. Understand though that the boards role in this was to propose it to the membership and let them vote on it. They decided. All we did was give them the opportunity to make that choice.

I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the affiliation with it is a good thing. I also know we were in survival mode and had to restructure some things to ensure that. The changes do nothing to detract from that affiliation and probably enhances it because the CDS is a huge contributor (member dues) to the NSS. Were it to go under because of that frivolous lawsuit the NSS would lose quite a bit of revenue because most NSS-CDS members are not dry cavers and would most probably not join the NSS only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

---

I think it's fair to say it's not much money overall, but $70 is a lot to spend on a constantly bickering organization when you're not sure which direction it's heading. I'm supportive of all those who have served on the board, and totally respect the work that has been done, but want to offer an outsiders perspective of what some of the rest of us see. I understand the stressful times of the lawsuit, but that doesn't fully explain the aimless nature of the organization.

Also, your numbers are a bit skewed to support your point. I think it would be fairer to say that the cost breakdown is closer to the following:

NSS-CDS: $70 = $50(NSS) + $3(Member/CC processing) + $12(UWS) + $5(CDS)
CDS only: $35 = $5(Member/CC processing) + $12(UWS) + $18(CDS)

So, we're really arguing about ~$5 versus ~$18 per member. I'll admit this is more money, but it's a far cry from the picture you're trying to paint. I've mentioned this before, but part of the cost of having members is the membership and credit card processing fees. We're currently using the NSS for this, which is fine in my book, but if you have a guaranteed way to save us these costs or the UWS costs then I'm all for it. But, more importantly, I think your skewing of the numbers is dishonest and we need to talk real numbers if we're going to have a real discussion about the merits of the different routes the society could take.

So, to be fair from my side, the numbers above are from my own flawed recollection of discussions that I've had with various BOD members over the years. I don't have the exact numbers, though I know they're close, so I welcome anyone that is willing to offer updates that are factually based. I know I was quoted the $12 per member number for the UWS and the approximate per member processing fee (which was based on credit card processing fees at ~3% per member + administrative fee).


That being said, Joe, I'm thankful for the years you served on the BOD and totally respect the job you did and am thankful you're willing to contribute meaningfully to the ongoing discussion. Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlillest

a constantly bickering organization when you're not sure which direction it's heading.

---

You do mean the NSS? Trust me when it comes to bickering the grottos and the NSS have the CDS looking like amateurs. I get very amused when people use terms like "cave politics" when talking about cave diving organizations, when our dry caving brothers do it so much better. But, I still support the NSS, and CDS, because overall they generate a lot of good.

The CDS had it made when the NSS had their basic membership, which gave the CDS members their NSS membership at a very nominal fee, and without NSS News. This is the ideal situation, which would be great if this membership category was brought back

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

I would also add that when we formed the alternative membership we did not raise the CDS portion of the NSS-CDS dues. Doing so would have put them is the $90 range and we feared it would trigger an exodus from the NSS. Understand though that the boards role in this was to propose it to the membership and let them vote on it. They decided. All we did was give them the opportunity to make that choice.

---

You can't have it both ways. For this discussion, your argument is that all the board did was propose it to the membership and let the membership vote. So it was all in the hands of the membership. But looking a bit more deeply the board DID recommend it to the membership:

"It is our intent to form an alternative membership which accommodates individuals who wish to be CDS members but do not wish to join the NSS."

https://nsscds.org/nsscds/2016-propo...titution-laws/

But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

Hi everyone I am not ignoring this thread, I am crunching numbers and will a great post that might surprise some of you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

You can't have it both ways. For this discussion, your argument is that all the board did was propose it to the membership and let the membership vote. So it was all in the hands of the membership. But looking a bit more deeply the board DID recommend it to the membership:

"It is our intent to form an alternative membership which accommodates individuals who wish to be CDS members but do not wish to join the NSS."

https://nsscds.org/nsscds/2016-propo...titution-laws/

---

No argument. If we thought it was a bad idea would never have proposed it. Fact is that we recommended it but the members ultimately decided.

Quote:

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But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

---

The board voted against it because of member apathy. They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run. That was not my personal choice but that's why we have a BoD.

Quote:

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I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

---

So you allowed your membership to lapse but you are still interested enough to post here which means that in your heart of hearts you still believe the CDS is viable and not all that horrid.

I believe (not researched) that many of those Grottos are 10-20 members so the 200 Grottos is not all that significant.

Fact is that the If your number is correct then the NSS-CDS represents about 10% of the NSS, maybe more. I suspect they value that number. But ... it really should not be "them vs us" and we never looked at it that way. I believe they were of the same mindset. From what I am told the relationship between the NSS and the NSS-CDS has been quite positive. I hope it remains that way.

As with most things there are those who will naturally resist change. They don't like it. That is their prerogative. The changes made in the CDS were never intended to be adversarial. The intent was to protect and ensure survival during bad times and encourage expansion of our numbers.

The reality is that the NSS-CDS has never been in such a good position financially as it is now. This is a direct result of good management and the utilization of the awesome pool of talent within its ranks. Fresh blood brings new energy and ideas to the table and opens the door to untold opportunities to support education, conservation and exploration.

There are those who would rather live in the past and never evolve, never take a chance on a new idea. Rather than get bogged down in how it was in the past and trying to remain there the CDS should be looking towards the future and embracing what it holds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

---

The bylaws require all bylaw changes be voted on and approved by the membership, this I can assure has been done. I have been part of bylaw rewrites that occurred around 2003, and 2007, and the membership voted on and approved this. Also this last bylaw rewrite went to the membership for vote, because I administered this election. The present bylaws are very specific about term limits, and in the last election we had to research to see if any board members that were re-running didn't trigger this and become disqualified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The bylaws require all bylaw changes be voted on and approved by the membership, this I can assure has been done. I have been part of bylaw rewrites that occurred around 2003, and 2007, and the membership voted on and approved this. Also this last bylaw rewrite went to the membership for vote, because I administered this election. The present bylaws are very specific about term limits, and in the last election we had to research to see if any board members that were re-running didn't trigger this and become disqualified.

---

Apologies, my comment was poorly worded. Perhaps "The board disapproved the proposed term limit changes and therefore the changes were not sent out for a vote" would have been better. I did not intend to imply that the bylaws were not followed. Sorry about that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run. That was not my personal choice but that's why we have a BoD.

---

Perhaps you mean that in jest, but in actuality I would suggest strongly you discontinue the dinosaur references. It's not respectful of us older folks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

So you allowed your membership to lapse but you are still interested enough to post here which means that in your heart of hearts you still believe the CDS is viable and not all that horrid.

---

I guess that would be largely accurate. I do not think the CDS is horrid, but am disappointed that it does not want to support the NSS and am still dismayed that Sheck's property was sold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

As with most things there are those who will naturally resist change. They don't like it. That is their prerogative. The changes made in the CDS were never intended to be adversarial. The intent was to protect and ensure survival during bad times and encourage expansion of our numbers.

---

Please ease up on the implied criticism. I don't resist change, but I do know from experience that change is not always good. No matter how bad things are, they can always get worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

There are those who would rather live in the past and never evolve, never take a chance on a new idea. Rather than get bogged down in how it was in the past and trying to remain there the CDS should be looking towards the future and embracing what it holds.

---

OK, I would argue that there are those who do not respect or understand the past. Everything you do as a cave diver is built on what the original cave divers did. The NSS-CDS was built by the original cave divers.

Not everything that the older generation did was good, but most of it was.

Cheers,

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

---

It's worth noting that the 10,000 member number is several years old (maybe 2010ish, or as early as 2008) and the NSS has been bleeding members at a rate of 300 or so per year. These numbers are mostly taken from various reports and director candidate platform statements. These are not easy to come by, so I wish I could provide more solid sources.

As before, I welcome anyone with solid sources or more actual numbers. I suspect those sources could be found in NSS BOD minutes, but those shouldn't be posted publicly.

I don't know how this correlates to the CDS membership numbers, but if you read board statements and candidate platforms it appears that the loss of membership is a big concern for the NSS (as it should be). I'd welcome any comments on the state of CDS membership over the past decade and what the current trend is. Does anyone have real numbers they can share? It's hard to discuss a topic like this without knowing what the numbers actually are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

Apologies, my comment was poorly worded. Perhaps "The board disapproved the proposed term limit changes and therefore the changes were not sent out for a vote" would have been better. I did not intend to imply that the bylaws were not followed. Sorry about that.

Perhaps you mean that in jest, but in actuality I would suggest strongly you discontinue the dinosaur references. It's not respectful of us older folks.

---

I am one of those older folks so I include myself in those references. I did hull inspections for Noahs Ark. No disrespect intended.

Quote:

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I guess that would be largely accurate. I do not think the CDS is horrid, but am disappointed that it does not want to support the NSS and am still dismayed that Sheck's property was sold.

---

That is not accurate. The CDS does want to support the NSS as evidenced by the Board not raising the dues to CDS members who joined the NSS. This was specifically to not hurt the NSS. We did not want to sell Cathedral. We HAD to sell Cathedral.

Quote:

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Please ease up on the implied criticism. I don't resist change, but I do know from experience that change is not always good. No matter how bad things are, they can always get worse.

---

Agreed and wasn't trying to criticize you. If you look, nothing has really changed. The Alternative membership did not detract from the NSS and most likely picked up disgruntled NACD people who might ultimately join the NSS-CDS.

Quote:

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OK, I would argue that there are those who do not respect or understand the past. Everything you do as a cave diver is built on what the original cave divers did. The NSS-CDS was built by the original cave divers.

---

I have a huge respect for the past. I just don't want to live in it. Remember VooDoo gas LOL?

I also have a huge appreciation for the opportunities the future holds.

Quote:

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Not everything that the older generation did was good, but most of it was.

Cheers,

David

---

I would agree with that and add that all of the knowledge we enjoy today was paid for with the lives, blood and sweat of those who went first. I just like to think of them as true explorers and in that tradition the CDS should explore new ideas and methods and resist the temptation to remain static and safe. There is nothing safe about what we do.

Cheers!

Joe

The CDS is down some from a couple years ago, but still around 10% of the total NSS membership.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlillest

It's worth noting that the 10,000 member number is several years old (maybe 2010ish, or as early as 2008) and the NSS has been bleeding members at a rate of 300 or so per year. These numbers are mostly taken from various reports and director candidate platform statements. These are not easy to come by, so I wish I could provide more solid sources.

As before, I welcome anyone with solid sources or more actual numbers. I suspect those sources could be found in NSS BOD minutes, but those shouldn't be posted publicly.

I don't know how this correlates to the CDS membership numbers, but if you read board statements and candidate platforms it appears that the loss of membership is a big concern for the NSS (as it should be). I'd welcome any comments on the state of CDS membership over the past decade and what the current trend is. Does anyone have real numbers they can share? It's hard to discuss a topic like this without knowing what the numbers actually are.

---

Thank you for the update on NSS membership numbers. I looked at all of the candidate platforms and 3 of them reference membership levels between 8500 and 9000.

When I took my cave diving training back in the day, students were encouraged to join the NSS, the CDS, and the NACD to support caving. And I joined all 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

The CDS is down some from a couple years ago, but still around 10% of the total NSS membership.

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Forrest - Does that 10% total include all of the CDS members, or just the CDS members who are also NSS members?

Thank you,

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run.

---

Personally, I think of myself more as a fossil from the obscene period.

Joe, since you and a few others are in a position to answer this question, what exactly is the upside for anyone to actually serve on this board? The downside is evident.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Personally, I think of myself more as a fossil from the obscene period.

Joe, since you and a few others are in a position to answer this question, what exactly is the upside for anyone to actually serve on this board? The downside is evident.

---

Service to the cave diving community was the upside for my several years service. Above and beyond the individual whiners...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

what exactly is the upside for anyone to actually serve on this board? .

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I don't know, ask Wayne Marshall...:-) Yes, it is only a joke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I don't know, ask Wayne Marshall...:-) Yes, it is only a joke.

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:rollguy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I don't know, ask Wayne Marshall...:-) Yes, it is only a joke.

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I think he's busy shopping....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Personally, I think of myself more as a fossil from the obscene period.

Joe, since you and a few others are in a position to answer this question, what exactly is the upside for anyone to actually serve on this board? The downside is evident.

---

The upside is that you have an opportunity to give back to a sport that has given us a huge amount of enjoyment over the years. It also gives you the opportunity to make a difference. No matter how small you may think it is, it still makes a difference. Plus you make a lot of new friends and acquaintances, help the cause of conservation and maintain the popular cave systems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I don't know, ask Wayne Marshall...:-) Yes, it is only a joke.

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http://i.huffpost.com/gen/239748/thu...O-large300.jpg

i have this problem solved with the printer network i have i have quotes saving a great deal.....

As promised, I am back and I have some info for you. Please be warned that the following is my opinion, and not direct statements by the NSS-CDS.
First off, let’s dispel some myths I am tired of hearing:

Myth 1#
“The NSS-CDS is planning to secede from the NSS.”
This is silly and wrong— no one wants that. The CDS is a separate corporation, but the CDS is a section of the NSS, and will remain so. There would be no way for the CDS to exist outside of the NSS. So if you hear this from somebody they are either misinformed or know better (and are being trolls).

Myth #2
“It’s against the NSS rules for the CDS to have a junior/associate/basic membership.”
Wrong— many grottos and sections of the NSS have junior memberships. I am in regular contact with the NSS, and I can assure you that it is ok for the CDS to have a junior membership; we have had it for at least a year now.

Myth #3
“With the option of a junior membership, no one will renew as full members”.
Again — wrong. Over the last year with a junior membership option, we saw no decrease in full memberships. Let me repeat that for the haters: last year with a junior membership option, we saw no net decrease in full memberships. At a time when other organizations like the NSS are losing members, the CDS is holding its own; and what’s good for the CDS is good for the NSS. The CDS full members are roughly 12% of the NSS now.

Now let’s get into some facts:

Fact #1
“The junior membership has been a huge success and has opened up a new demographic for the CDS”.
The junior memberships are growing rapidly, with new ones being added daily. Junior memberships are now over 20% of the CDS in just under a year. By having a lower priced option, many more people are joining and giving us the chance to step them up to full membership…. which would be good for both the NSS and the CDS. Now that we have this opportunity to grow both organizations, let’s not waste it.

Fact #2
“With a junior membership option there will be less ‘informal diving’ at CDS sites.”
With a lower-priced option and a quick 5 minute smartphone application process, there is no excuse to manipulate a buddy to get a key. Signed waivers for Cow have doubled in the last year; and more signed wavers equals less liability to the CDS and the NSS.

Fact #3
“TJ fought the by-law change tooth and nail”
This is true — there were some things about it I did not like. I voted against the referendum, but it passed and was sent out to the members — who voted in favor of it.

Where should we go from here?

Now that we have bucked the trend and have a potential new pool of full members, we need to show people the value of full membership. This can be done by both the CDS and the NSS. Let’s start by inviting the NSS to have a table and represent at our workshop so they can communicate the value in dual membership. We should also encourage CDS members to get involved with the NSS — like running for the NSS Board of Governors. Good communication between both organizations is key.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sly-vester

As promised, I am back and I have some info for you. Please be warned that the following is my opinion, and not direct statements by the NSS-CDS.
First off, let’s dispel some myths I am tired of hearing:

Myth 1#
“The NSS-CDS is planning to secede from the NSS.”
This is silly and wrong— no one wants that. The CDS is a separate corporation, but the CDS is a section of the NSS, and will remain so. There would be no way for the CDS to exist outside of the NSS. So if you hear this from somebody they are either misinformed or know better (and are being trolls).

Myth #2
“It’s against the NSS rules for the CDS to have a junior/associate/basic membership.”
Wrong— many grottos and sections of the NSS have junior memberships. I am in regular contact with the NSS, and I can assure you that it is ok for the CDS to have a junior membership; we have had it for at least a year now.

Myth #3
“With the option of a junior membership, no one will renew as full members”.
Again — wrong. Over the last year with a junior membership option, we saw no decrease in full memberships. Let me repeat that for the haters: last year with a junior membership option, we saw no net decrease in full memberships. At a time when other organizations like the NSS are losing members, the CDS is holding its own; and what’s good for the CDS is good for the NSS. The CDS full members are roughly 12% of the NSS now.

Now let’s get into some facts:

Fact #1
“The junior membership has been a huge success and has opened up a new demographic for the CDS”.
The junior memberships are growing rapidly, with new ones being added daily. Junior memberships are now over 20% of the CDS in just under a year. By having a lower priced option, many more people are joining and giving us the chance to step them up to full membership…. which would be good for both the NSS and the CDS. Now that we have this opportunity to grow both organizations, let’s not waste it.

Fact #2
“With a junior membership option there will be less ‘informal diving’ at CDS sites.”
With a lower-priced option and a quick 5 minute smartphone application process, there is no excuse to manipulate a buddy to get a key. Signed waivers for Cow have doubled in the last year; and more signed wavers equals less liability to the CDS and the NSS.

Fact #3
“TJ fought the by-law change tooth and nail”
This is true — there were some things about it I did not like. I voted against the referendum, but it passed and was sent out to the members — who voted in favor of it.

Where should we go from here?

Now that we have bucked the trend and have a potential new pool of full members, we need to show people the value of full membership. This can be done by both the CDS and the NSS. Let’s start by inviting the NSS to have a table and represent at our workshop so they can communicate the value in dual membership. We should also encourage CDS members to get involved with the NSS — like running for the NSS Board of Governors. Good communication between both organizations is key.

---

Well said TJ.

Correct on all points TJ. So there was never a need to change the bylaws to allow for CDS only membership. I would be in favor of leaving it, except for the part in the revised constitution that says:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sly-vester

As promised, I am back and I have some info for you. Please be warned that the following is my opinion, and not direct statements by the NSS-CDS.
First off, let’s dispel some myths I am tired of hearing:

Myth 1#
“The NSS-CDS is planning to secede from the NSS.”
This is silly and wrong— no one wants that. The CDS is a separate corporation, but the CDS is a section of the NSS, and will remain so. There would be no way for the CDS to exist outside of the NSS. So if you hear this from somebody they are either misinformed or know better (and are being trolls).

Myth #2
“It’s against the NSS rules for the CDS to have a junior/associate/basic membership.”
Wrong— many grottos and sections of the NSS have junior memberships. I am in regular contact with the NSS, and I can assure you that it is ok for the CDS to have a junior membership; we have had it for at least a year now.

Myth #3
“With the option of a junior membership, no one will renew as full members”.
Again — wrong. Over the last year with a junior membership option, we saw no decrease in full memberships. Let me repeat that for the haters: last year with a junior membership option, we saw no net decrease in full memberships. At a time when other organizations like the NSS are losing members, the CDS is holding its own; and what’s good for the CDS is good for the NSS. The CDS full members are roughly 12% of the NSS now.

Now let’s get into some facts:

Fact #1
“The junior membership has been a huge success and has opened up a new demographic for the CDS”.
The junior memberships are growing rapidly, with new ones being added daily. Junior memberships are now over 20% of the CDS in just under a year. By having a lower priced option, many more people are joining and giving us the chance to step them up to full membership…. which would be good for both the NSS and the CDS. Now that we have this opportunity to grow both organizations, let’s not waste it.

Fact #2
“With a junior membership option there will be less ‘informal diving’ at CDS sites.”
With a lower-priced option and a quick 5 minute smartphone application process, there is no excuse to manipulate a buddy to get a key. Signed waivers for Cow have doubled in the last year; and more signed wavers equals less liability to the CDS and the NSS.

Fact #3
“TJ fought the by-law change tooth and nail”
This is true — there were some things about it I did not like. I voted against the referendum, but it passed and was sent out to the members — who voted in favor of it.

Where should we go from here?

Now that we have bucked the trend and have a potential new pool of full members, we need to show people the value of full membership. This can be done by both the CDS and the NSS. Let’s start by inviting the NSS to have a table and represent at our workshop so they can communicate the value in dual membership. We should also encourage CDS members to get involved with the NSS — like running for the NSS Board of Governors. Good communication between both organizations is key.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sly-vester

Myth #3
“With the option of a junior membership, no one will renew as full members”.
Again — wrong. Over the last year with a junior membership option, we saw no decrease in full memberships. Let me repeat that for the haters: last year with a junior membership option, we saw no net decrease in full memberships. At a time when other organizations like the NSS are losing members, the CDS is holding its own; and what’s good for the CDS is good for the NSS. The CDS full members are roughly 12% of the NSS now.

---

Question, and please don't categorize me as a "hater",it is good the CDS membership isn't dropping, but are the people who are becoming CDS only members converting to NSS membership after 1 year per the rules of an IO? The CDS only membership level has existed for over a year , and how I am reading the rules, they should become NSS members upon renewal or be dropped. "C. IOs may, at their option, have members who are not members of the NSS and who are limited to a year or less on this status."

TJ you bring up a good point about having the NSS present at the workshop and talk about the benefits of the NSS. You understand because you have spent time with the governing body, and if you didn't think there is value, you wouldn't considering running for their board, which I thank you for becoming involved. Honestly, projecting the value of the NSS is going to have to come from the CDS board, who are required to be members of the NSS per the rules of an IO. Cave divers think of themselves more as divers than cavers, so this has always been a huge void to fill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Question, and please don't categorize me as a "hater",it is good the CDS membership isn't dropping, but are the people who are becoming CDS only members converting to NSS membership after 1 year per the rules of an IO? The CDS only membership level has existed for over a year , and how I am reading the rules, they should become NSS members upon renewal or be dropped. "C. IOs may, at their option, have members who are not members of the NSS and who are limited to a year or less on this status."

TJ you bring up a good point about having the NSS present at the workshop and talk about the benefits of the NSS. You understand because you have spent time with the governing body, and if you didn't think there is value, you wouldn't considering running for their board, which I thank you for becoming involved. Honestly, projecting the value of the NSS is going to have to come from the CDS board, who are required to be members of the NSS per the rules of an IO. Cave divers think of themselves more as divers than cavers, so this has always been a huge void to fill.

---

Good point Kelly, The interpretation of the IO rules "limited in scope to one year" was one of the main reasons I voted against the referendum. I felt the junior membership is fine you get one year then upon renewal, one must step up to full membership. The interpretation being used was one could have several one-year junior memberships which what I did not agree with. The good thing about interpretation is it can be changed without a written by-law change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

Good point Kelly, The interpretation of the IO rules "limited in scope to one year" was one of the main reasons I voted against the referendum. I felt the junior membership is fine you get one year then upon renewal, one must step up to full membership. The interpretation being used was one could have several one-year junior memberships which what I did not agree with. The good thing about interpretation is it can be changed without a written by-law change.

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Technically "junior" membership doesn't exist in our lexicon,but the one year "intro" period is actually a temporary membership in the grotto, and then you become a full member. Does the CDS convert these people after 1 year to full membership, my understanding no. This is up to the CDS, because I will always maintain an NSS membership, but as a future governing board member, you will have the duty of upholding the rules of the IOs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

Correct on all points TJ. So there was never a need to change the bylaws to allow for CDS only membership. I would be in favor of leaving it, except for the part in the revised constitution that says:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

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Forrest, there was no provision for a intro membership so a by-law change was needed. As you know I fought the bylaw change for reasons I stated above. The numbers do not lie, And the success of the intro membership is right there in black-and-white. Reverting back to the old bylaws will undo the progress this organization has made both financially and in gains of membership which are also potential members to the NSS. I cannot in good conscience vote for something that will set the organization back no matter what I am running for. I am up for interpreting of the limited in scope to one year clause as requiring full membership upon renewal. But I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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Drain the sinkhole!!!!

TJ question- knowing that someone can be member of that IO for 1 year,and then they have to become a member of the NSS, what would your response be as a NSS governing board member if the IO allowed them to continue as a "Intro", "temporary","junior" member each year? To be in compliance what would your action be as an NSS board member?

When I looked I could not find where the one year requirement was in the bylaws. I only found where it was a past practice but not a hard and fast rule. I don't think there is any compliance issue.

My understanding is that this seems to be working well and has not harmed the NSS and has helped the CDS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

Forrest, there was no provision for a intro membership so a by-law change was needed. As you know I fought the bylaw change for reasons I stated above. The numbers do not lie, And the success of the intro membership is right there in black-and-white. Reverting back to the old bylaws will undo the progress this organization has made both financially and in gains of membership which are also potential members to the NSS. I cannot in good conscience vote for something that will set the organization back no matter what I am running for. I am up for interpreting of the limited in scope to one year clause as requiring full membership upon renewal. But I will not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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TJ, you addressed the first part of Forrest's comment, but not the second. Can you address the part about the change to Article 8? I think you guys agree about everything you commented on.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

When I looked I could not find where the one year requirement was in the bylaws. I only found where it was a past practice but not a hard and fast rule. I don't think there is any compliance issue.

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Policy for Internal Organizations, Bullet/Section #5, Part C
https://caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-D.pdf (NSS member login required)

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

When I looked I could not find where the one year requirement was in the bylaws. I only found where it was a past practice but not a hard and fast rule. I don't think there is any compliance issue.

My understanding is that this seems to be working well and has not harmed the NSS and has helped the CDS.

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5. The membership of IOs shall conform to the following requirements:
A. All persons who serve on the governing board of an IO must be a member of the NSS except in the case of Surveys where representatives of state entities or other conservation organizations may serve on the board regardless of their NSS membership status.
B. Full membership in IOs shall be open only to members of the NSS.
C. IOs may, at their option, have members who are not members of the NSS and who are limited to a year or less on this status.
D. Membership in grottos (or chapters) shall consist of at least five members of the NSS who have designated that grotto as their Primary Affiliation
E. The formal name of a Student Grotto shall indicate that the organization is a Student Grotto (or Chapter).
F. Membership in sections shall consist of at least ten members of the NSS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

When I looked I could not find where the one year requirement was in the bylaws. I only found where it was a past practice but not a hard and fast rule. I don't think there is any compliance issue.

My understanding is that this seems to be working well and has not harmed the NSS and has helped the CDS.

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Perhaps numbers don't lie, but they can easily be misunderstood. How do you know it hasn't harmed the NSS - perhaps some of these cheap CDS-only members would have joined the NSS. You don't know, and you can't know.

You guys keep focusing on how the CDS needs money, like membership dues are your only source of money. It is not, there are merchandise sales and certification fees. My understanding is that the latter is significant.

The bump in members could be due to it being sold at the discounted price. Or it could be due to the collapse of the NACD, or perhaps even your instructors are (as they should be) encouraging their students to join.

I personally believe that the NSS is important to the CDS and that in return the CDS should support the NSS. Offering a junior membership without time limit is not supporting the NSS. As word gets out, I expect a lot of CDS members will migrate to the CDS-only membership. Why shouldn't they - it's endorsed by their leadership and saves them a few bucks.

It costs $40 per year to belong to the NSS with an electronic copy of the News - the NSS gives a $10 discount for going electronic. Maybe the CDS should offer a similar discount for subscribing to an electronic UWS.

I wish that our candidate for the NSS board and our CDS leadership here would give some thought to the comments here. Instead, the responses are that everything is great and it's all a big success. Maybe so for the CDS, maybe not so much for the NSS.

Bottom line - if you want to be part of the NSS leadership, then you should be committed to the NSS. The NSS is struggling and needs good leadership. I'd like to see the CDS be part of the solution.

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Originally Posted by bigdave

You guys keep focusing on how the CDS needs money, like membership dues are your only source of money. It is not, there are merchandise sales and certification fees. My understanding is that the latter is significant.

.

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Maybe CDS board members can clarify, but merchandise sales aren't the big item it used to be. If you notice there have been over stock sales to move inventory since it tends to stagnate. Certification is probably not what it used to be, especially since TDI has become the biggest certification agency for cave diving. I think workshops are the biggest money maker for the CDS. The largest expense is UWS, which takes probably around 80%+ of the membership dues. I am thankful for the CDS boards which have shown fiscal concern for the organization and good oversite.

Maybe it's because I'm one of the oddballs who was a caver long before becoming a cave diver, but I believe that everyone who cares about caves, even if you only think of them as places to dive, should belong to the NSS.

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Maybe it's because I'm one of the oddballs who was a caver long before becoming a cave diver, but I believe that everyone who cares about caves, even if you only think of them as places to dive, should belong to the NSS.

Mike

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I personally don't know why I should belong to the NSS. I have zero interest in dry caving. I've been in dry caves, and it does nothing for me. As soon as I get the NSS magazine, it goes in the trash (I wish I could opt out of it). I would prefer to only be a member of the CDS. It's great that my NSS money goes to convservation efforts, but there's other charities I'd rather the money go to.

And if the CDS makes all of their money off of workshops and not nearly as much on certifications as before, maybe it's time to give up on being a certifying agency. Stick with educational/conservational.

The NSS is the primary organization for conservation, exploration, and study of caves, underwater ones as well as dry ones.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

As soon as I get the NSS magazine, it goes in the trash (I wish I could opt out of it)

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Being a basic member is an option for not getting the magazine. It'll also save you $10 per year. Either that or the CDS-only option.

Instead of throwing out the magazines, you should give them to people at dive sites or dive shops, maybe?

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I personally don't know why I should belong to the NSS. I have zero interest in dry caving. I've been in dry caves, and it does nothing for me. As soon as I get the NSS magazine, it goes in the trash (I wish I could opt out of it). I would prefer to only be a member of the CDS. It's great that my NSS money goes to convservation efforts, but there's other charities I'd rather the money go to.

And if the CDS makes all of their money off of workshops and not nearly as much on certifications as before, maybe it's time to give up on being a certifying agency. Stick with educational/conservational.

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I can understand your stance. So many relate to the CDS since we are divers, and we go into caves. It is funny once I remember having a conversation with some NACD board members when I sat on the board, and they wish they had the advantage of belonging to a national organization. The NSS has done a lot for the CDS over the years. For example, we wouldn't have had "Taming of the Slough" if it wasn't for NSS press publishing it, in fact they have made their resources available to publish other books for the CDS. Alachua would more likely be a drain pond for Wal Mart if they hadn't taken over the property. They provided help for the CDS in their lawsuit, which had the potential to shutter the CDS. They have donated grant money to support cave diving projects. The biggest benefit is we have a recognized national organization that is proactive in supporting all facets of caving that we can call upon when we need a larger voice. People say the CDS is anti-NSS, this is not accurate, but NSS-apathy is probably a better description. The CDS minimally embraces all the resources the NSS can provide, and never exercises its majority in this organization to help it become stronger.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I can understand your stance. So many relate to the CDS since we are divers, and we go into caves. It is funny once I remember having a conversation with some NACD board members when I sat on the board, and they wish they had the advantage of belonging to a national organization. The NSS has done a lot for the CDS over the years. For example, we wouldn't have had "Taming of the Slough" if it wasn't for NSS press publishing it, in fact they have made their resources available to publish other books for the CDS. Alachua would more likely be a drain pond for Wal Mart if they hadn't taken over the property. They provided help for the CDS in their lawsuit, which had the potential to shutter the CDS. They have donated grant money to support cave diving projects. The biggest benefit is we have a recognized national organization that is proactive in supporting all facets of caving that we can call upon when we need a larger voice. People say the CDS is anti-NSS, this is not accurate, but NSS-apathy is probably a better description. The CDS minimally embraces all the resources the NSS can provide, and never exercises its majority in this organization to help it become stronger.

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I can appreciate having to rely on the big brother organization to help the smaller cds and therefore the nss is an asset. If the cds could accomplish everything without the nss then I would prefer to not have to be part of the nss.

Dry cave conservation is cool, but I'd prefer my conservation money to go elsewhere if it could.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Being a basic member is an option for not getting the magazine. It'll also save you $10 per year. Either that or the CDS-only option.

Instead of throwing out the magazines, you should give them to people at dive sites or dive shops, maybe?

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I'll have to look when I reup. I think we have the family membership and thats why I havent gone to basic.

As far as keeping the magazines, I have enough trouble remembering all my dove gear sometimes let alone bringing magazines.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I personally don't know why I should belong to the NSS. I have zero interest in dry caving. I've been in dry caves, and it does nothing for me. As soon as I get the NSS magazine, it goes in the trash (I wish I could opt out of it). I would prefer to only be a member of the CDS. It's great that my NSS money goes to convservation efforts, but there's other charities I'd rather the money go to.

And if the CDS makes all of their money off of workshops and not nearly as much on certifications as before, maybe it's time to give up on being a certifying agency. Stick with educational/conservational.

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I too have almost zero interest in dry caving but I prefer that CDS is part of NSS and I don’t mind supporting their general conservation and exploration efforts. Given that memership dues are on the order of a gas fill or two, not sure what all the hoopla about memership dues are about.

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Originally Posted by midway

I too have almost zero interest in dry caving but I prefer that CDS is part of NSS and I don?t mind supporting their general conservation and exploration efforts. Given that memership dues are on the order of a gas fill or two, not what all the hoopla about memership dues are about.

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I agree. The cost is pretty much negligible. Getting a magazine bothers me the most as its wasteful to send me one. I will see about getting it stopped. I was mainly revealing an opposite opinion of what someone commented on.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Dry cave conservation is cool, but I'd prefer my conservation money to go elsewhere if it could.

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Ironically the NSS and CDS have reached out to each other with conservation. Cave diving projects for conservation have appeared in NSS News ( too bad nobody reads them and throws them away), and the NSS has some interest in a couple cave diving cave repairs, and want that to appear as a chapter when the Cave Restoration book goes to reprint.

To me it is caves, mutually exclusive if it is wet or dry. The biggest problem is we get our training from diving agencies not a cave agency like the CDG, so we identify ourselves as divers not cavers. Honestly if we did identify as cavers we probably wouldn't have the cave damage issues we have.

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Getting a magazine bothers me the most as its wasteful to send me one

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It is too bad the NSS eliminated the basic membership we once had, which was no magazine, and a lower cost dues. I understand why they did it,but perhaps TJ in his new role if he wins, can persuade the NSS to bring it back. For me, I get the electronic version of the NSS News for the same reason other people have commented in this thread.

A little history. When cave diving first became popular in Florida, a group of cave divers got together and formed a group, called the NACD. For the most part, they were open water divers that just happened to swim into caves. A few of the members wanted to know more about caves, so they might be able to predict where to find new leads. Sheck Exley joined the NSS, so he could learn more about caves. He found out that there were other cave divers that were NSS members. Many of those early NSS cave divers predated the NACD. Some like me were both "dry" cavers, ans sump divers.

When the NSS first started having "sections" of like minded cavers, Sheck asked to form a Cave Diving Section. The biggest advantage of the CDS being part of the NSS is all their knowledge of caves applies equally to wet, and "dry" caves.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

It is too bad the NSS eliminated the basic membership we once had, which was no magazine, and a lower cost dues.

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Like I mentioned above, there is still a basic membership in the NSS. They eliminated a couple of other membership types, but not this one. It's $40 per year with no magazine, versus $50 for regular membership. Though it used to be cheaper, they increased dues on basic members by more than 30% the last dues increase versus less than 10% on regulars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlillest

Like I mentioned above, there is still a basic membership in the NSS. They eliminated a couple of other membership types, but not this one. It's $40 per year with no magazine, versus $50 for regular membership. Though it used to be cheaper, they increased dues on basic members by more than 30% the last dues increase versus less than 10% on regulars.

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You are right. The original basic membership was no magazines, and was a very nominal fee. Perry, for the NSS really petitioned to eliminate this, and reduce the membership levels. Unfortunately this slipped by the CDS, and we got the membership levels we have now. At one time the NSS software was severely out of date (heard they were using DOS type software), and it was difficult to handle the membership levels, but with the software now, no problem. The CDS representing such a large percent of the NSS membership could petition to bring this back.

"C. IOs may, at their option, have members who are not members of the NSS and who are limited to a year or less on this status."

The one year limited membership complies with this. It says nothing about having to become an NSS member after a year and it says nothing about not being able to renew that limited membership.

Anyway, I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the CDS does and should support it. I also think that the NSS puts its needs first (as it should - think "we have a building to pay for when the CDS asked for help with not raising NSS dues to its members - I understand those kinds of decisions) and like wise, I think the CDS board should put CDS needs first. As its fiduciary's, it is their responsibility to make decisions based on what is best for the CDS.

With the (sad) demise of the NACD, the CDS was / is in a position to pick up some of their membership, many of whom did not want to join the NSS-CDS because NACD was cheaper or because they had no interest in dry caves. I know that sounds silly but we've all heard that comment at one time or another. I think it is better to have these folks at least partially in the fold than to ignore them. Over time I'm sure some of them will change their minds. Better to do that with education and exposure than by what they might perceive as coercion.

I think the more we debate this the more both sides will dig their heels in. I don't see either side changing its position and ultimately the CDS belongs to its members and this was their decision.

Many other grottos and sections have non-NSS memberships that are allowed to renew. The reasoning that I received from the NSS is "That it's better to have them participating in cave conservation and contributing to their local grotto then to force them out of their social circle where we(The NSS) will have no access to them." When something is working you do not try to fix it. This has been a wake-up call that we needed a lower priced option and we missed an entire market/opportunity.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

I think the more we debate this the more both sides will dig their heels in. I don't see either side changing its position and ultimately the CDS belongs to its members and this was their decision.

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Sadly I think you are right.
I am not reading item C how the CDS is interpreting it. If the NSS is fine with it, and the CDS has a loop hole, go for it. The biggest negative is CDS' tremendous majority in things like COG etc will be diluted, but then again we rarely participate, who cares.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Sadly I think you are right.
I am not reading item C how the CDS is interpreting it. If the NSS is fine with it, and the CDS has a loop hole, go for it. The biggest negative is CDS' tremendous majority in things like COG etc will be diluted, but then again we rarely participate, who cares.

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Perhaps the NSS should reach out to the CDS members and make a concerted effort to engage them. Make it obvious that they are getting something tangible in return for their dues. You can't see or feel conservation efforts so people tend to dismiss it but they'll love you forever if you buy them a hot dog and sponsor some cave diving related clinics or workshops. It's just human nature.

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Anyway, I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the CDS does and should support it. I also think that the NSS puts its needs first (as it should - think "we have a building to pay for when the CDS asked for help with not raising NSS dues to its members - I understand those kinds of decisions) and like wise, I think the CDS board should put CDS needs first. As its fiduciary's, it is their responsibility to make decisions based on what is best for the CDS.

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Which brings us back to the original point of this thread:

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Originally Posted by shellmoundal

Those of us who are members of the NSS have received an Email for the annual election.
If you have scrolled through the names of candidates you would have noticed that one of our current CDS BOD Member , TJ Muller, is one of the candidates.
TJ has been the liaison between the NSS and the CDS for several years. This would make a great fit for the CDS to have a person like TJ on the BOD of the NSS.
Please take time to read the platform statements of the candidates and vote for the person of your choice.:arrowred

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Personally I cannot vote to put TJ on the NSS board if (as JoeyP says) he would put the CDS interests ahead of the NSS.

(I really don't think the interests are all that divergent, but seemingly some of the CDS leadership is focused more on CDS membership and money rather than the benefits of the caving community. Cave divers may feel that they are not really part of the caving community, but they are.)

And I will say that I'm surprised that the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." can somehow be stretched to allow unlimited annual renewals. Seriously?

So having said that I will get off of my soapbox, shut up, and vote. :)

Cheers,

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeyP

Perhaps the NSS should reach out to the CDS members and make a concerted effort to engage them. .

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Slightly counter intuitive. NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD. If the CDS leadership can't see value in an affiliation with the NSS, then more likely the membership will have the same point of view. Please note Joe, I may not share the same opinion as you, but I have huge respect for you, and thank you again for helping the CDS during some dark days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Slightly counter intuitive. NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD. If the CDS leadership can't see value in an affiliation with the NSS, then more likely the membership will have the same point of view. Please note Joe, I may not share the same opinion as you, but I have huge respect for you, and thank you again for helping the CDS during some dark days.

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That huge respect is mutual Kelly. You gave me a lot of much needed guidance when I was chair. I thank you for that.

My idea is that the NSS should woo the CDS only members so they are no longer this mystical figure in the shadows and have a real presence in the world of CDS members, especially the newer, younger ones. Also, the notion that the CDS wanted to leave the NSS is not true. No one wanted that. What we did want was to become more financially stable and to increase our numbers. That seems to be the case here so why not capitalize on the increased numbers and make them want to be NSS members instead of forcing them. The CDS was and is part of the NSS family. All we are doing now is taking in a few foster children that we may some day adopt :-)

In the end I think we are on different sides of the same coin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD.

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Possibly the most important quote of the thread.

I've read this post, all 10 pages of it with interest because as was said by a previous poster the NSS should woo CDS members. Maybe woo is too strong of a word but certainly the NSS should make us CDS Members feel a part of the larger whole of the NSS. I know there are business reasons why the CDS should be part of the NSS but how about the reasons for the CDS members themselves.

Here's my NSS story. Maybe others have experienced the same. When I first started diving I was a member of the NSS-CDS. Each year when I would receive the current membership catalog I would see dry caver members with all sorts of awards listed next to their names. So when I received my Abe Davis Award on my next renewal I informed the NSS that I had received this award and could they please include it in next years membership catalog. Well, it wasn't included that year, or the next year or the one after that. After the third failed attempt I called the NSS. They told me that they would never include a cave diver's award BECAUSE it wasn't a NSS sanctioned award. They only recognize NSS awards NOT CDS awards. I quit the NSS the following year because it was obvious to me the NSS didn't recognize the cave diving section.

So as a current CDS Member, my comment to our board members new and old is to raise concerns like this to the NSS. Maybe CDS members like me would join back with the NSS if they gave us the same level of acknowledgement as the dry cavers receive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JJKJR

.

Here's my NSS story. Maybe others have experienced the same. When I first started diving I was a member of the NSS-CDS. Each year when I would receive the current membership catalog I would see dry caver members with all sorts of awards listed next to their names. So when I received my Abe Davis Award on my next renewal I informed the NSS that I had received this award and could they please include it in next years membership catalog. Well, it wasn't included that year, or the next year or the one after that. After the third failed attempt I called the NSS. They told me that they would never include a cave diver's award BECAUSE it wasn't a NSS sanctioned award. They only recognize NSS awards NOT CDS awards. I quit the NSS the following year because it was obvious to me the NSS didn't recognize the cave diving section.

.

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Funny you mentioned this. When I chaired the CDS I spent time with the NSS, and one of the things I asked about was getting CDS awards included in the member's manual. Not only is there Abe Davis etc, but there are conservation award, outstanding service award, cartography award etc. I did get an answer back, and the reason was that with 100+ grottos, sections , affinity groups, many have awards, and they can't include all of them. So they deal with the NSS awards, which the CDS used to be very proactive in nominating their members for these awards. I can't remember the last time a CDS member got a Fellow of the Society recognition, which I can think of several people who are deserving. I think at one time when the CDS had their member's manual we used to put the award levels in ( or should have) but the CDS hasn't done a member's manual in 10 years.

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Originally Posted by bigdave

Personally I cannot vote to put TJ on the NSS board if (as JoeyP says) he would put the CDS interests ahead of the NSS.

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Well, the term "low-information voter" comes to mind, so let me help you out. I am on the board of CDS which means I am supposed to do what is in the best interest of the board I am on, that's the way boards work. My position is the liaison between the NSS and the CDS, and I have regular contact with the NSS as matter of fact I brought the president of the NSS to speak at the CDS board meeting tonight. My strategy has been trying to unite the two organizations despite negativity from internet trolls. I would usually ignore this but I find this post so egregiously misformed that I'm worried there might be more of you so consider it a community service. Let me cover a couple of your concerns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

And I will say that I'm surprised that the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." can somehow be stretched to allow unlimited annual renewals. Seriously?"

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-The President of the NSS interprets it the same way, at his own grotto(Bear Grotto) they have a non-NSS membership that they allow to renew. The reasoning it's better to have people involved in cave safety, conservation, social activities etc. They do not feel it is wise that after a year you kick them out where the NSS doesn't have access to them anymore if they don't go to a full membership. The rationale being if they stick around they will eventually become full members with the support of the rest of the grotto. I would agree with this rationale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdave

(I really don't think the interests are all that divergent, but seemingly some of the CDS leadership is focused more on CDS membership and money rather than the benefits of the caving community. Cave divers may feel that they are not really part of the caving community, but they are.)

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The president of NSS is very happy with the success of the CDS only membership and plans something similar for the NSS. What is good for the CDS is good for the NSS, you are right. Growing the CDS by over 20% in a year is huge, and now we have a fertile pool of prospective full members for the NSS. This is kind of big-picture thinking I know but stay with me.

As far as the interest of the NSS, I did successfully litigate a suit on behalf of the NSS, against a municipality and WAL-MART to protect Mill Creek Preserve(maybe you missed it). There are now permanent covenants on the land and no gas station is being put above the aquifer. Now there are conservation easements as well as the neighboring parcels being locked down by SRWMD. There is even retrofitting to manage the runoff for the development that's already there.
Maybe you should ask the City of Alachua or WAL-MART if I was looking out for the interest of the NSS.

So now I have a question for you. What cave conservation projects you currently working on BIGDAVE?

I know you won't vote for me but could I suggest.
John Brooks
Kim Flieshmann
Nathan Farrar

TJ I wish you success with your role in the NSS if it comes to fruition, and if not possibly consider helping in another role. I also wish to show appreciation to all out going CDS board members in a few days, and the new ones coming in. This discussion on the thread has been civil, and informative, no matter how a person feels about the organizations. Caving and cave diving is always under attack with us losing site access and meeting other restrictions. These organizations have done a lot to help, and am very appreciative there have been a group people with like minded goals and ambitions to protect a sport we appreciate.

TJ - interesting post. This is the first time I have been called a troll, but I've been called worse. Given that I joined this forum in 2004 and that I do post on other topics, it is difficult to argue that I meet the definition of a troll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Should you or anybody else actually be interested in who I am and some of my diving history (which I seriously doubt), please PM me and I'll provide the boring details.

TJ - THANK YOU, THANK YOU, and THANK YOU for all of the things you have done to protect and advance cave diving. Seriously, it is time consuming and without much payoff other than personal satisfaction. You've done a lot, and you deserve thanks. As far as what I've done, I can't offer up anything. I've had some personal challenges that again I don't imagine anybody is interested in. BTW BIGDAVE is a nick name that some of my friend use for me. My first name is David.

Back on topic, I'm an old school (literally) guy and to me words mean what they say. IMO the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." is not readily interpreted to become unlimited years in this status. If that was the intent of the BOG, the phrase should not have been codified into the by-laws in the first place. IMO by-laws should be followed or changed. It is interesting that you mention the NSS President, as I was just looking at the May issue of NSS News. (Great magazine, by the way.) There is a section titled "President's Message", and it discusses grotto leadership, membership, and how to grow a grotto. The President lists 10 programs or efforts that he considers to be successful in growing a grotto. A lower priced grotto membership without NSS membership is not on that list.

(Also in that issue - good news Kelly, on page 24 there is an article about IT and at long last that DOS-based database is going away!)

Being an engineer, I like to have numbers and documents. The hope expressed here is that the junior members (or NSSCDS-only members) will become NSS members down the road. So that leads me to some questions. Are there any records showing how many junior NSSCDS members have joined the NSS? Is there a plan on the part of either the NSS or the NSSCDS to convert these members to NSS membership? For example, at some point will the NSSCDS website offer an option for joint membership? Will the NSSCDS suggest joining the NSS when renewals are sent out for those members? Will the NSSCDS allow the NSS to solicit these members?

It does not seem likely to me that NSSCDS members will join the NSS out of the blue without some sort of campaign or encouragement.

I hope you may take some of the above into consideration. Should you win your seat on the BOG I will offer my congratulations and support.

Tonight I will reread the platform statements, and cast my low-information vote. :D

Cheers!
David H.

Dave,
With the generous inclusive interpretation of the bylaws as far as non-NSS members I think it?s incumbent upon the sections and grottos to show value in full membership with the NSS and help communicate the mission of the NSS. As far as promoting the non-NSS memberships the NSS the grottoes nor the CDS will advertise the non-NSS memberships. We are not actively promoting them, although this thread has certainly got the word out. Again personally I feel everyone should be full members and remember I voted against the bylaw change. Unfortunately right now we are a dying breed and if we don?t change the way we think and attract new members and grow the next generation of conservationist and cave divers this organization will die with us.


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Originally Posted by Sly-vester

I think it?s incumbent upon the sections and grottos to show value in full membership with the NSS and help communicate the mission of the NSS.

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This is good in theory,but it is imperative the leadership of these grottos and sections see value in it and understand the main organization to be able to communicate this value. Rarely have CDS board members attended the national convention. participated in COG (if they know what this acronym means) etc. Rarely, if ever do you see in the platform statement of someone running for the board, I want to develop a better relationship with the NSS and help the CDS grow within their umbrella. If you in your role with the NSS are able to develop a relationship, then that will be truly remarkable. The uphill climb is that we are trained as divers, and not as cavers, so we identify with the diving part of the equation, not the caving. Hence we are divers who enter caves. Honestly I don't see a lot of change occurring because we as an organization don't want to change, I get it. The demise of the NACD, where unfortunate, was not without prediction for so many reasons beyond the scope of this thread, but at least knowing the CDS has some affiliation with a larger organization, I have comfort in knowing the CDS may have some longevity. Pity, the CDS has the potential of out living the sport, at least in Florida.