Help a noobie cave diver save some bread?

I recently relocated to Mobile, AL and happened across the Vortex by chance. I have been a swimmer my entire life and love the water.

I had a business trip down to Panama City that I was lucky enough to maneuver to a Friday and opted to scoop up a few snorkel "packages" off scuba.com and enjoy the jetty (sp?) diving in St. Andrews park. I could not get enough and found myself really wanting to get deeper. We visited a couple dive shops and ran into some really great people who were very passionate about their hobby.

I am DYING to cave dive - but want to do it right. I want to be safe, well trained and well equipped. What I don't want to do is spend my hard earned cash on equipment that cannot be used for the grand goal of cave diving when I am ready.

Having gone through a wealth of hobbies I understand that people who live and love the activity have the inside edge. I want to build a suit that I can use in my pool to toy with, certify in open water and advanced open water (on our newly downed aircraft carrier in p-cola :D ) with and eventually use for some very high level cave diving.

I don't want to make noob mistakes, as this appears to be a very sofisticated activity which is very gear dependant. At this point I have the best snorkel package that scuba.com sells including some split fins that I am told cave divers do not buy into. I don't want to spend any more money on equipment that is not usable in the gravy of the cave environment.

I have a sandals trip scheduled for July in Sandals in Jamacia - I would love to bring a solid gear set and do some serious diving in the waters there. Could I get some advice in peacemealing a solid diving set tapping the wisdom here for the best bang for the buck? My gear will be used for recreational diving first, but I will be training cave as soon as I am ready.

Thank you in advance.

The Sandman
Mobile, AL

from OW to full cave... You can probably find an instructor to do it by July for you...


and so it begins...

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Originally Posted by Tegg

from OW to full cave... You can probably find an instructor to do it by July for you...


and so it begins...

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There you go planting seeds again... :-)

I would imagine your average OW instructor would #### a brick if you showed for OW class in a cave rig.

I would start by shopping around for a good OW instructor. You may be able to find one that cave dives which would probably help.

Asking that question here is an exercise in futility.
With 1600 users you will get 1600 answers.
All of the answers are good answers for that person.
It comes down to what is safe and what you are comfortable with.

Use your set you have now and get open water scuba training.
Most open water instructors will supply the rest of your gear.
After that, rent gear for a while and see what you like.
When you find something you like you can buy it.
Get advanced open water certified after mastering basic skills.
Then do your homework and shop around for a cave instructor.
Ask a lot of questions to the potential instructor.
In my opinion a good instructor won’t mind taking the time.
When you have found an instructor you like ask him or her what gear they recommend and ask why they recommend it.
Get 2nd opinions as to why. (Or why not)
By this point you should know what you like anyway and the opinions will only be guides to you.

By taking your time you will have gained the knowledge to buy proper gear. And remember, not all of the gear will work for you after you leave the store. I have a $50 backplate pad that is now used to keep my socks from getting dirty while putting on my dry suit. If you can’t find a second use for something you can always put it on the gear exchange forum right here.

And finally having extra pieces gear is not so bad. My short and fat spring heeled cave fins really suck for spear fishing and my longer rubber strapped fins would kill me in a cave.

~G

You sounded like me when I first started, so here's my advice, based on what mistakes I made:

Start slowly, take the tme to really learn the basics of scuba diving and truly feel comfortable in the water. The only way this can happen is by taking the beginner classes and then by practicing your skills. I would take Advanced Open Water and also Rescue. The Rescue course offered by most training agencies should give you a basic feel for the type of thought patterns that you must be comfortable with while cave diving. Namely, preparation, prevention and performance. Most rescue diver classes also focus on stress and how it contributes to problems while diving. In the cave stress and panic can become a real concern so you should have a handle on the theory regarding stress/panic in the open water before sticking yourself into a mud tunnel somewhere 1.000ft in a cave.

In my opinion, if you don't have a basic handling of OW, AOW and Rescue, you shouldn't really be thinking of cave diving yet or the type of gear you'll need to buy. However, the one piece of gear you can get away with that can be moved over to cave diving is the BC. Get a aluminum backplate system w/ continuous webbing (any will do, no H's are needed on webbing) and a single tank bladder for the plate. This can be used in any OW diving and with a swap of the bladder can be upgraded for doubles.

Other than the BC, I would filter out any other gear concerns. Cave equipment is so specialized and so specific that you will kick yourself a thousand times if you start buying all kinds of cave gear now.

Bottom line, start thinking of cave diving once you've finished OW to Rescue, start thinking of cave diving GEAR once you've finished Cavern. This is just my opinion from someone who felt that he "went to fast" in the beginning. I'm a fairly decent cave diver now, but I definitely could have learned more instead of steppping on the accelerator.

Also, don't fall victim to the various "cults" out there. Some will tell you that you should be diving in a FULL CAVE RIG from day one. Most often, then are just trying to sell you gear - don't be fooled.

Be an OW diver and enjoy yourself - then move forward slowly.

WOW active community here and I thank you all for the feedback.

I don't want to spend one red dime on equipment that is not premium and of use for my grand goal. I am of the personality type that if I am not planning for the grand goal I am not planning at all. I am 100% positive that there are passionate divers here who are not in it to make a buck but instead can offer me solid advice in building the best cave diving set to protect my life and pocket book at the same time. My goal is to go into this with at least a smidgen of advice from pros. I would like to buy my gear with precision and keep my eye out for solid technology and perforance at a good price point.

From what I can gather cave diving equipment is the premium package as it is the most demanding scuba equipment out here. I don't want to invest in anyting I will have to replace to do deep cave diving. I am wealthy enough to invest in solid gear but poor enough I don't want to buy anything twice.

Is there a first great step? A solid piece of equipment that I can use to train that will carry me to the most demanding environment?

-The Sandman

go buy a Dive Rite Transpac and Rec Wing....I know your not ready for any kind of technical diving, but when your local dive shop trys to sell you Mares new jacket BC tell them to you want a Transpac. That will take you from your first dive in a swimming pool all the way to just about as hardcore cave diving you can do, then when you just cant do anything more hardcore, buy an Armadillo harness and opportunites open all over again :-D

I've had my ScuDa from day one.
This is an indispensable piece of gear for me.


http://www.worldtribeweb.com/scuba/scuda.gif

http://www.scuda.com/The_SCUDA.htm


:-D

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Originally Posted by the_sandman

Is there a first great step? A solid piece of equipment that I can use to train that will carry me to the most demanding environment?

-The Sandman

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Private Message (PM) sent.

Don't be in a hurry, the caves aren't going anywhere. Take the time to learn what you are doing and be comfortable with what you are doing. Part of diving is pissing away money....(trial and error, what gear works for you) As for cave diving practice by standing on the steps at Ginnie and throwing $20.00 bills in the water. :-D

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Originally Posted by nic160

Part of diving is pissing away money.... As for cave diving practice by standing on the steps at Ginnie and throwing $20.00 bills in the water. :-D

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ROFLMAO. These are two truths worth remembering.

I don't write much, but sympathize with the question...

I'm a newbie (diving about a year and half, and just did intro to cave in Feb), and pretty easily recall similar question.

Your concern is very valid in my opinion. From the short period of time that I've been diving I have quickly noticed that every dive shop I walk into offers what I am told to be is the absolute best gear, used by most of the cave & wreck divers and should be considered in place of what I currently have and/or am considering...

The suggestion of finding a cave instructor that happens to do OW is probably excellent. Pay very very very close attention to who you are talking too, and try to do everything you can to buy in due time with lots of patience. The closest LDS talks about cave diving etc and sells a whole bunch of gear to folks after they take OW. Had a close friend buy everything that he would ever need with his intention being that he would become a cave diver. His story dates back 6 or so years, but he bought the absolute best sherwood regulator, 7mm wetsuit and aluminum 100 tanks with yokes, and tech ready black diamond BC, and air integrated computer that the shop advised him was the way to go. Turns out they teach cavern, do so very rarely, and go cave diving almost as rarely (been about 4 years maybe?!?). After a year or so he quickly felt "lost" in the confusion of how to do it and "need different stuff" and I think just felt completely broke... hasn't dove and has given a lot of the gear away... I was in the shop a couple months ago and heard them advising a 20'ish year old about the adventures that await in the caves and that he should be looking at this nice flashlight with handle and lanyard which was "really bright".

Pay attention to who you are talking to, ask lots of whys, do lots of reading, meet lots of folks. Find out their experience level- - how often are they going and what in particular they are doing when they go.

Dive a whole lot and get your skills and knowledge ready all as part of the preparation...

well that's my 1 cent worth!

Several books out there... start reading away, at least for when you aren't diving...

worst case ask some folks here and/or read the posts... lots to reflect upon.


Dave

Hey sandman.
As you can see you are getting one agreed answer.
Invest in your brain gear first.
And do it slowly.



G

i really understand where you're coming from, and feel for you, but i don't think starting in the gear i use now would have been any advantage *at all*. i spent about $1500 on an openwater setup. i've replaced EVERYTHING. just the *lights* for cave diving are up to $1500 each, as are computers, and doubles with a manifold, and drysuits - see what i mean?

starting off in doubles with a vr3 isn't a good idea.

now, that being said, there *are* some things that you can get from the ground up. basic paddle fins like jets, turtles, or rockets. two good second stages, one on a long hose and one bungeed under your chin. a backplate or transplate with continuous webbing. a simple, good-fitting mask. a nice wetsuit & booties (yeah, you'll most likely go dry eventually, but start wet since you live in the warm). if you're going to go computer, go ahead and get one that does nitrox. you'll have to get other stuff, but put your money in these things since you'll be continuing to use them.

but the most important thing is a buddy willing to be a mentor, because the skills are different than what you'll be taught in open water. i'd never have been able to do this without bobby and jason. never. find one of these magical creatures, dive dive dive every chance you get, and in a year or so you'll be ready.

all personal opinions, but backed by personal experience!

PM sent.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

i really understand where you're coming from, and feel for you, but i don't think starting in the gear i use now would have been any advantage *at all*. i spent about $1500 on an openwater setup. i've replaced EVERYTHING. just the *lights* for cave diving are up to $1500 each, as are computers, and doubles with a manifold, and drysuits - see what i mean?

starting off in doubles with a vr3 isn't a good idea.

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To be fair if we were smart enough to ask questions as he is doing right now maybe I would have opted not to buy those 2 al 80s and bought 2 steel tanks that could be set up for doubles later after training progressed.
And I wouldnt have bought that 600 dollar aladin air computer that required a 115 dollar battery replacement that was a console.
And lights why not buy one that can serve as a backup?
I just saved boatload of money and can dive Open Water.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

now, that being said, there *are* some things that you can get from the ground up. basic paddle fins like jets, turtles, or rockets. two good second stages, one on a long hose and one bungeed under your chin. a backplate or transplate with continuous webbing. a simple, good-fitting mask. a nice wetsuit & booties (yeah, you'll most likely go dry eventually, but start wet since you live in the warm). if you're going to go computer, go ahead and get one that does nitrox. you'll have to get other stuff, but put your money in these things since you'll be continuing to use them.

but the most important thing is a buddy willing to be a mentor, because the skills are different than what you'll be taught in open water. i'd never have been ab

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I agree completly.

Im jealouse this guy he had a better plan then I did when I got certified.
Not knowing where I was going with this at the time and buying the wrong things that could have been used as I progressed still is upsetting.

I would have liked someone to say hey dont buy that octo just buy another set of regs you may not need that second first stage now but later it may come in handy.

I dont want this to be taken as bashing to anyone but I really liked his question and would have liked to find a place to ask the same.

John

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Originally Posted by john

maybe I would have opted not to buy those 2 al 80s and bought 2 steel tanks that could be set up for doubles later after training progressed.

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Believe me, you'll be wanting some Al80's for stages. Keep 'em.

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Originally Posted by Jason B.

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Originally Posted by john

maybe I would have opted not to buy those 2 al 80s and bought 2 steel tanks that could be set up for doubles later after training progressed.

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Believe me, you'll be wanting some Al80's for stages. Keep 'em.

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True but.

The guys question revolved around what to buy now.

It was kind of an answer that could be used closer to the future. And not having to keep current vis and hydros in place until the time came.

I see where he is coming from the expence is overwhelming why not try to find out if you can buy something like a tank that would be useful in the progression.
The 80 is long in the future if your going to do Ow then do it in that tank that can be converted quickly that will have the same cost either way(valve or none) and still be able to enjoy the sport and not have to worry about paying for something that you already bought.

Like I had said I wasnt trying to bash in this just suggest a plan not to spend as much.
Mask fins (throw that away) Most can be converted and used if bought properly.
He asked a hell of a question and think hes just as welcome as Matt...

Mr. Sandman,

It seems you want someone to give you a price/gear list. If you really think you NEED cave gear NOW, this is it. You'll never need anything else, IMHO. This is all best of breed and not cheap.

Mask - ScubaPro Frameless $100
Fins - Scubapro Jetfins w/ steel spring straps $100
Suit - DUI CFx200 drysuit custom fit $3,000
Regs - 2 Atomic B2's or Scubapro s600's (DIN) $1,000
BC- DiveRite Alum backplate w/ Trek wing $500
Cpu- VR2 or VR3 $1.5 -$2,000
Backup Lights- 2 Tektite Excursion LS4 $350
Primary Light- Salvo 9.6 Amp Li-Ion 21 Watt HID $1,400
Tanks- 2 galvanized steel PST E8-130's banded $1,000
Manifold- Diverite 300 bar manifold. $300

There it is, let the money pissing begin. The only thing - if you plan to do OW and cave diving, there is the whole saltwater issue. Many cave divers don't like the salty seawater rotting out their life support gear (tanks, regs, hoses, etc...) and typically will have multiple sets of gear for this purpose. That's when the REAL money pissing begins.
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Originally Posted by andrebasso

Mask - ScubaPro Frameless $100
Fins - Scubapro Jetfins w/ steel spring straps $100
Suit - DUI CFx200 drysuit custom fit $3,000
Regs - 2 Atomic B2's or Scubapro s600's (DIN) $1,000
BC- DiveRite Alum backplate w/ Trek wing $500
Cpu- VR2 or VR3 $1.5 -$2,000
Backup Lights- 2 Tektite Excursion LS4 $350
Primary Light- Salvo 9.6 Amp Li-Ion 21 Watt HID $1,400
Tanks- 2 galvanized steel PST E8-130's banded $1,000
Manifold- Diverite 300 bar manifold. $300

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Glad I don't shop where you do :D Although it looks like some of your quotes are low (unless you are buying used). Pretty good setup Andre.

If yuo watch for swap meets you can usually pick up your gear a lot cheaper used than new...All my 72s were made before I was born. I just picked up some 104s that were made in 74....

It is a LOOONNGG road from basic OW to full cave. You will take years and possibly HUNDREDS of dives to get from one to the other... be sure to enjoy each stage as you go and don't rush yourself. You need to have the skills down pat before you move on to the next level each step of the way or you will be missing out on the training.

As was said above, there is a lot of gear that you will probably use for OW that gets tossed in the cave - like a snorkel for instance. Don't despair... here are some things that can take you all the way through. Also – I would suggest renting the first few times to make sure you like being under water.

BC - the DiveRite Transpac is a harness that you can buy different wings for. Get the harness and they are single tank wings. Later in apprentice you can get larger wings. I do dive singles in the OW sometimes and like having the gear flexibility.

Regulators - get a high end reg... don't skimp here. Apex, Dive Rite, ScubaPro all these are good. I like the DiveRite because they are high quality and relatively cheap. You will end up with many regs down the road (I have 6 or 8) but at least you won't have to toss this. You will end up changing around all the hoses later, but the core will be there.

Tanks – there are several ways to go here. Aluminum tanks are pretty standard for OW they will go into the closet when you get to cavern & full but then come out again when you start using them for stages – they are apx $150. Steel tanks are really nice but more than 2x the cost. You won’t have to wear as much lead in the water, they usually hold more air, and for cavern and cave you can buy new valves/bands to make them into doubles. HP 120’s are nice, LP 95’s are also – you can do some research on tank weights and buoyancy characteristics to see what is good for you... I think there is info on the resources page

Fins - these will probably be worn out by the time to get to cave training! Maybe not... heavy fins like the Turtles won't make you happy in the water unless you need them to adjust your trim - otherwise you will be fighting them on your dives. You want fins that create a lot of thrust, not ones that flap around in the breeze. Go online to DiveRite, Halcyon, etc. etc. to look at their fins. http://www.diverite.com/

Mask – get one that fits and feels comfortable. I spent $80 on the last mask I bought, but that isn’t necessary.

Lights – when it is time to buy lights this may be WAY out of date. Currently you would want to get an HID canister light. I would recommend going for a focusable light head and the smaller/more dense batteries. When you start doing night dives you might splurge for one of these… you will be the envy of the WHOLE dive boat ; )

Training – You may want to read “Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival
by Sheck Exley”, it talks about trim, kicks, etc. Having an idea of where you are headed as far as technique goes may keep you from developing some bad habits. (Don’t kick up the bottom, stay parallel to it, don’t touch things, your legs move you around – your arms just waste energy)

Hope this helps!

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Originally Posted by andrebasso

Many cave divers don't like the salty seawater rotting out their life support gear (tanks, regs, hoses, etc...) and typically will have multiple sets of gear for this purpose. That's when the REAL money pissing begins.
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Haha - I love it! I use my same gear for ocean or cave. I guess I am living on the edge

Just wanted to thank everyone for the wealth of information and the private messages. I got so many I have not been able to respond to each - but the information was priceless.

The one thing I have gathered from this is that it is a long road and I do have a ways to go. I have already identified some equipment choices that I can carry over with me - but before I do anything I am going to get in the water and start the live process of training. I did not truely respect the dive time before hearing the many testimonies people have sent to me. Now I understand my best choice is to be thrifty with the pocket book and buy my equipment slowly, when I need it.

I am going to make some sacrafices in perhaps a wetsuit and a single wing that won't carry over into my cave diving goal, but this is a reasonable sacrafice as there is no point in buying the highest grade cave only diving equipment at this early stage possibly years before it is of use to me.

Thank you all. I will be around gathering more info.

The Sandman