I FOUND OUT THIS WEEKEND THAT INTRO CAVERS CANT DIVE IN THE DEVIL SYSTEM AT GINNIE WITH DOUBLES.YOU CAN HOWEVER DRIFT DOWN TO THE EAR WITH THE TUBERS AND GO IN.
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I FOUND OUT THIS WEEKEND THAT INTRO CAVERS CANT DIVE IN THE DEVIL SYSTEM AT GINNIE WITH DOUBLES.YOU CAN HOWEVER DRIFT DOWN TO THE EAR WITH THE TUBERS AND GO IN.
Ginnie is following the rules of your certifying agency. This topic was BEAT TO DEATH on TDS. I suggest you contact your instructor and discuss options. If you were trainied in doubles, it may be possible for you to get a discretionary doubles "cert" if your agency allows for it.
Again, this was beat to death on The Deco Stop.
WELL ILL BE GETTING MY APPRENTICE IN ABOUT A MONTH SO ILL JUST DIVE PEACOCK ECT.HOWEVER I UNDERSTAND THAT I AM QUALIFIED TO DIVE DOUBLES TO 6THS.OF COURSE THERES NO WAY FOR THEM TO MONITER THAT,SO THEY FIGURE A SINGLE TANK ON 3RDS IS SAFE EXCEPT FOR THE LACK OF REDUNDANCE.AS FOR THE FACT THAT THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN DISCUSED TO DEATH,I AM NEW TO THIS FORUM,GREETINGS ALL!
the Caps Lock key is the one to the left between the Tab and Shift keys
Not only am I not a computer geek, but I've never chatted on any forum about any subject. My daughter who does, tells me that the caps lock appears that im yelling. Thats not all the case. Sorry guys. Be patient, my one finger typing, is also slow...
I'm not an instructor, but if I remember correctly since I was recently in this situation:
NACD allows you to dive doubles at the intro level with a discretionary apprentice form signed by your instructor (good for a year), but not without it.
NSS-CDS recently changed there Standards and Procedures to allow doubles diving at 1/6th's for intro cave divers.
What agency are you certified with?
nsscds. Thats what i was saying earlier, 1/6th on doubles which no one can inforce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
the NSS-CDS did just change the cert from "Intro to Cave" to "Basic Cave". That allows doubles at the Intro level..
As an Intro cave diver, you should be inforcing the 1/6 rule yourself.. (while using doubles)
not trying to start anything... just my 2 psi
Charles, just some words of advice.....Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
Cave instructors and Ginnie staff monitor this forum and it may not be the wisest thing to sign your name if you're going to talk about breaking park rules, diving outside of agency limitations because the rules don't apply to you and there's no way for anybody to enforce them etc
You are not allowed to dive a 1/6 of doubles with an Intro card through the CDS at the Devil's system. However if you contact a CDS instructor, if they choose to they can issue you a Basic Cave certification which will allow you to dive doubles in the Devil's system. Please think a little before you post on a public forum, as there are no secrets in the cave diving community. Hope this helps.... :D
Safe diving,
Rich
The Shallow End of the Gene Pool is where the tubers get in the water.
:smt023
i dont think my jeans have anything to do with diving a cave that ive been in several times past,but during the week.however i wouldnt bother making the trip from the river again.i love that system and have no intentions on breaking any of their rules put there to keep people safe.ill get my full cave course completed and all will be good.i find it funny that some folks on here are nice and others are not.
Most are nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
You hit a topic that was recently and hotly debated, with strong feelings on both sides (three sides?) of the issue. Some times strong feelings about a topic appear to be meanness directed toward the one who brought it up, but they are rarely intended to be so.
That and your shouting (through inexperience) brought on some abrupt replies.
Stick around. You'll enjoy the ride. Perhaps read more than you write for awhile to get a feel for the place.
WJH
Ive been reading posts on here for a little over a year now,but being new to cave diving,never really had anything to say.I thought writing that doubles werent allowed as an intro'ermight save someone a trip,or dissapointment.Since they dont tell you this when your registering,but tell you at the waters edge.
Although not as well enforced,the same thing does apply to Peacock.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
true, but thats where all the teenage females go....For once I would like to actually see them for more than acouple seconds while they drive past the eye ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Actually, per standards, this should have been discussed with the student by their cave instructor....Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
Safe diving,
Rich
Lusting after teenage girls riding innertubes Aye Titen?? I'm telling your Mother :wink:
When I got my "Intro" I trained in Doubles and my instructor signed off on my temp card as a Discretionary Apprentice. I was allowed to dive Doubles, and use the rule of thirds, but it specifically stated "No Solo", "No Jumps".
I thought that was a fair allowance at the time and I abided by it.
It would be nice if the NSS-CDS made this more official, The change to calling it "Basic Cave" seems like a positive step.
TDI's Intro card has no doubles restriction on it (and the restrictions are on the card ITSELF) - also missing is "no solo", so under agency rules you're entitled to dive solo if you'd like as well.
So it appears right now that a NSS/CDS, TDI or The-Agency-That-Must-Not-Be-Named permit doubles at Intro level, and TDI at least has no issue with solo diving.
What they used to call it (CDS) is not material; their current standards permit doubles at "intro" level.
Thus, the only "mainstream" agency that insists you dive LESS SAFE at the present time is NACD. Something to think about...
FWIW I will not go in an overhead without doubles. If Ginnie wants to play the game of "let's make people dive LESS SAFE" to the point that they want to impose rules beyond what an agency requires they of course are entitled to do so as the land is their property. I am of course entitled to give them the finger.
My understanding was that this was resolved with the recent changes to the NSS-CDS standards. If not, well, that's cool - I will vote with my wallet.
If they want to play that game I will come by boat and bring two flags for my mast - one dive flag and one of a middle finger salute. That's perfectly legal and while I'm sure they won't like it there's not a thing they can do about it. I think I'll bring a scooter along too. Not only will I choose to insult them, they won't get my money this way either.
Find a friend with a pontoon or small skiff. The best response to stupidity is found through your wallet.
You guys wil be at the conference this weekend...we will be in the shallow end of the gene pool doing power tubing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Titen
In as simple language as possible:
Ginnie Springs is privately owned.
Ginnie Springs has no obligation to the cave "community".
For thirty years, Ginnie has seen fit to provide access to Devil's Cave System from their property.
Ginnie most certainly does not require the relatively small revenue generated by cave divers.
Ginnie follows the Standards set by each agency.
NACD and NSS-CDS Intro to Cave Diver does not permit the use of doubles without a Provisional/Discretionary Apprentice.
NSS-CDS Basic Cave permits the use of doubles to one-sixth of gas supply.
How difficult is any of that?
Perhaps if Ginnie shut their doors to cave diving for thirty days or so, we would appreciate the value of what they have provided us instead of whining and complaining that we are not the beneficiaries of some imagined entitlement.
For those of you who want to ##### about Ginnie, please use the river for access. That might actually limit the time you have to spend behind your keyboards.
Johnny Richards
actually, 60 days per discretionary form, but you can get another as needed so long as your instructor is willing.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuster500
Impressive rhetoric - As someone just said - Ginnie won't miss your money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
David Andrews
That's fine. I have all sorts of issues with what appear to be conflicts of interest w/regards to Ginnie, and as far as I'm concerned there's nothing all that enticing about Devil's in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by dlanc
Whoa, Karl. I usually enjoy reading your rants, but my gosh, the Devil system is AWESOME. I don't get there as often as I'd like because it's so far, but when I do I'm in awe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
Russell
Agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sludge
But then , I am in awe in any cave I go into ...
(must just be me then)
Jean
I found myself laughing out loud at 1:30AM as I read that line... Hillarious!Quote:
Originally Posted by Titen
I thought you were not able to get full cave cert. untill you could do P1 to Olsen on a single tank.
I guess ...Quote:
Originally Posted by jammer
Close the isolator
Dive to Olsen and switch regs on the way back...
You didn't say you had to use the SAME single tank :-D
Jean
well then keep all those conflicts of interest to yourself, i myself enjoy diving at Devils and I am more than happy to pay the $20 to be able to park my truck 100ft from the water, have a nice general store with food and drinks, and bathrooms with hot water showers ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
You hold yourself out as a business, you get to take the slings and arrows for your conduct.
Well said, Ginnie does not make a lot of money off of Cave Divers. Most of their money comes from campers and tubers.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
If it wasn't important to them then why charge divers several times what they charge tubers and campers?
Market forces....duh.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
I find it worth the entrance fee. If you don't - either use a boat or don't dive there.
Life ain't fair. :lol:
Ain't about "fairness" and I have no quarrel with using a boat - in fact, if you look up above in this thread that's what I recommend.
The fact is that Full Cave Divers are charged at a lower entrance fee than OW or intro, basic apprentice or cavern divers. No one in this community should overlook the contributions Ginnie has made to the cave community. They took it from the point where the state wanted it closed to where it is at today, an acceptable recreational activity enjoyed daily by thousands annually. /KQuote:
Genesis wrote:
If it wasn't important to them then why charge divers several times what they charge tubers and campers?
BTW Karl, easy on Ginnie. No more rule 6 violations for you or I will give you a vacation. Keep your diatribe constructive or go somewhere else.
Jay
Agreed. Make it value-added or lose the opportunity to contribute. Poking a bear for 'fun' is just dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Angie
So debating the value - or vapidity - of a dive site's policy is not allowed here? If you say so.....
Genesis wrote: "FWIW I will not go in an overhead without doubles."
Forgive a dumb question from an Intro Cave Diver: Why are 2 tanks connected by a manifold safer than a single tank with a Y-valve? In either case, a blown O-ring or a burst hose forces you to shut off the air supply to one regulator as quickly as possible. In either case, it's going to be hard to see which one to shut down. In either case, if it happens deep in the cave, you will probably lose so much air that you will need some of your buddy's air to get out.
If I have a leak and cannot instantly determine where it is I go for the isolator.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
I have now protected at least half of my gas and, assuming I did my gas management right up to that point, I am no longer at risk of being dead. If I can manage to fix whatever the root cause is of the leak I have even more. But - the salient point here is that the knowledge that I am no longer "dead" means that my stress level - and thus the risk of panic - has just gone way down at the moment the isolator is shut. In an emergency keeping your head screwed on straight is the salient factor differentiating between an "aw %#$%" and a recovery.
Second, two cans dove to sixths are always safer than one can dove to thirds. In a flowing system the higher the capacity of the cans on your back (dove to thirds) the safer you are, because on the way out you get an "assist" from the flow - ergo, you have more "dwell time" in the event of an "oh @##$" situation to sort it before your remaining gas is insufficient. As such even if you violate the Intro "sixths" rule and dive twins to thirds provided you are in a cave with outbound flow you are objectively safer than you are with a single dove to the same thirds.
(This is counter-intuitive but if you do the math you will find it is in fact true - every time - even though you're further back in the system on the thirds! I'll omit the actual math here in the interest of brevity, but will be happy to PM an example to anyone who needs it....)
This is where those who argue for singles get it wrong; they simply refuse to do the (fourth grade) math. The argument that its "too tough" to require doubles (or that we should "open" introductory levels of overhead diving to people in singles) is similarly foolhardy - you should have plenty of time on doubles in open water before attempting to use them in an overhead, of course, just like you should have plenty of time on a scooter in open water before trying to take one into a cave. Requiring people to show up for an overhead class already competent in doubles is not "too stringent" - it is in fact smart.
I find it amusing that you rant about "freedoms" so much, yet you are trying to "take away" the freedom of a private business to run the way it wants to... :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
Look, Ginne Springs Outdoors is a private business. They own the land that is only on ONE side of the river. If you do NOT like their policies or business practice (even though it is perfectly legal), then simply go by boat (which you say you do, thus why are you on here trying to take their business freedoms?) or get permission to access the river from the other land, which is privately owned and may or may not allow access to you. At which point you can then get pissed at them for not allowing you the access you "deserve" to the spring which is in the river...
Since I was asked in a PM about the math, here it is....
Assume you have a 100cf tank (single) with a "Y" valve.
We have a hypothethical cave and diver with the following characteristics:
1.0 scfm air consumption while swimming @ 1 ATA
Depth of 4 ATA (~99'), or actual air burn of 4 cfm while swimming, straight line with a vertical shaft down to the cave.
Flow rate of 100 fpm
Swimming rate of 300 fpm
Ok, so our intrepid adventurer dons his single with "Y" valve and proceeds into the cave. He gets to 1/3rds in about 8 minutes, and is (300 - 100 = 200 fpm * 8 ) or 1600 fpm back.
As he is about to turn around (he's at thirds) he has an "oh !@#@!!" moment and loses half his remaining gas supply.
How long does he have before he dies?
Answer: If he SITS he has ~8 minutes before he runs out of gas and dies.
To get out, he requires (1600 = (300 + 100) x), or 4 minutes.
He therefore has four minutes to get his act together and sort whatever happened to him when he lost the gas (lost guideline, etc) before he's a dead man.
Ok, now let's say this same intrepid "intro diver" gives the bird to all the instructors, agencies and dive parks (commercial and otherwise) who insist on him using a "Y" valve and instead mounts himself a pair of HP100s. He's ALSO going to break the other Intro rule about sixths for "discretionary apprentice" and dive to thirds on those doubles - he doesn't believe that garbage about sixths and he's quite sure he is safer doing this than the guy is diving the single to thirds.
Let's see if he's right - just on the math here now.
This adventurer goes into the very same cave, he dives for 16 minutes (since his thirds are now twice as large), and is 3200' back in the cave.
He has the same sort of "oh !@##!!" moment and finds himself with 1/3rd of his remaining gas ALSO gone (less probable, by the way, since it takes twice as long to drain, but heh, we'll give you guys that one - tying one hand behind my back to make it fair is part of the deal!)
HE can sit for sixteen minutes before he dies. But of course he's not going to do that - he's going to swim for the exit too, as soon as he has the problem sorted.
How long does it take him to exit?
3200 = (300 + 100) x, or eight minutes.
And how long does he have to sort the problem?
HE HAS EIGHT MINUTES, WHICH IS DOUBLE THE MARGIN OF THE GUY ON THE SINGLE!
In other words by giving the finger to "the rules" even though I have penetrated twice as far I have bought myself twice the margin of the guy on the "Y" valve!
If I obey the sixths rule and thus penetrate only the same distance as the guy on the "Y" valve then the comparison isn't even close to fair.
For those who argue that I'm more likely in the second scenario to have to blow off a deco obligation, that's fine - go ahead and run the same scenario at 60' (e.g. Peacock) on EANx32 - its just convenient to use nice round numbers for this example.
Besides, we can fix bent (some of the time anyway.)
Dead is always permanent.
(Yes, I realize the numbers are nice and round - and more than you can manage actually swimming. That's ok - the larger the percentage of your forward swim rate the flow is the better the argument for the doubles! At a place like Devils where the flow in some places exceeds your ability to swim the margin is likely 3x or better for the guy with the dubs on over the guy with the Y valve! The point is that in any cave with outbound flow the diver with doubles is never in worse shape than the guy with a single in terms of his dwell time after an incident in which the same percentage of his total gas is lost.)
You want to know why I get riled about this stuff?
You should now understand.
I don't know about 4th grade math,but history shows we've never ever had an accident with an intro cave diver on a single tank.
We recently had a cavern diver - making a cave dive - who I'd wager would be alive right now had he been wearing doubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Well, I'd wager he would still be alive had he not broke the guidelines of accident analysis and dove beyond his training level....Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
I heard an interesting viewpoint at the NSS-CDS workshop about rebreathers and perhaps they might be the way to go as far as reducing the % of accidents involving fully trained cavedivers in caves. The idea being that rebreathers give a diver more time to solve a problem.
Remember, I don't know jack about rebreathers but I found the idea to be intriguing.........
One could also say that we had an Intro diver die in Little River - making a cave dive - who I'd wager would be alive today had he been wearing a single tank instead of doubles....Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
Safe diving,
Rich
I think it would be very instructive if Genesis and Rich would share the details of these accidents: both the one where doubles might have gotten the diver out of trouble and the one where doubles got the diver into trouble.
Hey we all should admit we are in love with dangerous sport. While I not condoning breaking any rules in the sport we all have to say that there has been a number of full cave Cert. divers die in caves also from pushing the envelope just a bit to far. Comfort,Confidence, and Training go hand and hand I think, but when you say to yourself I have been to Olsen 100 times on 1/6th or I have dove to the Florida room and back 100 times and been way within 1/3rds and not even monitor your air or anything. I was trained to check air early and often. I was trained time is air and air is time. I was also trained awareness, Like my Inst. would say what time did I call the dive? Where where we hen I called it? How long did it take to get to Pot Hole? How much air did you use to get to 800' marker and Ect. So he was wanting you to know in case something happened to be comfortable and confident you could handle it. I thought it was hard and he was being a little to picky and hard nosed about some things but he just wanted me to be safe.
A few years back, a couple of Intro divers with rented doubles went into Little River and only one made it out, my point was that if the divers involved were not wearing doubles they would probably not have even attempted this dive that ended with such tragic consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
In the example Karl used, a Cavern diver ran out of gas roughly 1200' back in a system with an Intro diver and a Cave diver. While doubles might have helped in this situation, the diver involved broke pretty much every limitation of his certification level and went on a "trust me" dive, again with tragic consequences.
Hope this helps....
Safe diving,
Rich
...divers involved...Quote:
the diver involved
In both instances.
Johnny
One reason is if you extrude a neck O-ring or knock a burst disk loose (I've seen it happen...the burst disk thing) with a single tank, you're screwed, Y valve or H valve.Quote:
Originally Posted by allen
As long as those divers are willing to invest a significant amount more time, effort, and money to aquire, maintain, and stay proficient with a RB....yes, overall, IMO, they are safer. RB's, however, are not nearly as tolerant of bad technique, poor maintenance, etc.. RB's also create a much higher workload and have their own unique problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
Mike
There is an old adage about solving a problem and how much time you have.
The answer is:
"The rest of your life"
Yes, I can't believe no one else has brought up this HUGE problem with BM singles. However, both BM doubles and singles have failure points which are not reconcilable. If you lose a tank neck o-ring or a burst disk on a single you are screwed -- . -- Y OR H valves will do nothing for one of those problems. BM doubles give you added redundancy because neck ring and burst disk failure can be isolated. Of course the isolator valve itself could blow.... but that ONE fatal failure point on doubles is better than the TWO fatal failure points associated with BM single tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Bottom line, BM doubles and singles both have failure points, which is why you want to always have a buddy when diving with either setup. The only type of diving where you have TRUE FULL redundancy (buddy optional) is with two side mounted tanks.
Buddy bottles are good too but I can't believe how many will over swim their AL80 and not even consider the "missmatch" tank sizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrebasso
All I dive is sidemount anymore, last time I dove BM doubles is when I was in Akumal. Because of the team structure, I dove the doubles.
Not necessarily true, and further, this example actually makes my point rather than others - these divers were probably not qualified to dive doubles, because they had to rent them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
If they had not been able to get the Intro cert without showing proficiency in doubles, there is a significant chance they would not have had the card (and thus still be alive), or would have had only one new piece of gear with them (scooter .vs. scooter AND doubles)
I know that when I started diving doubles I was an absolute freaking mess in the water for the first half-dozen dives.....
I argue that the LR incident actually argues for requiring doubles for overhead certifications - ANY overhead certification.
well we can say it is safe to dive doubles or singles, but has there been an acident or fatality from blown neck ring or burst disc? Alot of the fatalities have been diving past there lvl of training or pushing the envelope to far.
None of which has to do with having gas on your back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammer
IF you do something stupid, more gas (more TIME) is always better.
Not if you have a buddy worth diving with...Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Perhaps the real value in single tank Intro diving is teaching communication and buddy awareness, given the single tank scenarios mentioned in this thread.
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I don't see too many full cave divers complaining about the intro rules. Step up to the plate and take full cave if you want to dive doubles. (This from someone who took Intro in doubles, at Ginnie, when it was nearly heresy to do so)
Drew
ROFLMAO...I took cavern in doubles at GinnieQuote:
Originally Posted by Limestone Cowboy
Times change don't they? I think my instructor was the only one teaching Intro in doubles at the time...at least it seemed that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
I just see a lot of divers who take Intro in doubles and then think thats all they need to do to do any cave dive they want. Maybe a single is a good way to remind them they shouldn't.
Anyways, I don't have a dog in this fight....have at it.
Drew
Just my point of view....
A few months ago, I made the 3 hour drive to Ginnie, checked in and paid my money, got down to the water, got geared up and was getting ready to dive when Eric told me that I couldn't dive doubles. You have not seen pissed off until you saw me on that day. I hadn't brought a single tank rig (and wouldn't have dove one even if I had... being the big, bad "Intro Cave" diver!!) There was nothing else to do but make the 3 hour drive back home.
I was plotting revenge... Screw them all...I'm gonna boycott Ginnie, I'm gonna kick Eric's tail, I'm gonna this, I'm gonna that, etc....
Instead, the next day I signed up for full cave, started the class 3 days later, learned a TON of valuable material, made a few mistakes, learned from them and have never regretted my choice for even a second!!
Now, Eric and me are cool and having been on both sides of the debate (recently I might add), I have to admit, I am amused by these discussions that keep repeating themselves.
I'll throw in my vote... Although I dove doubles as an intro diver, I NEVER turned at 6ths (unless I was buddying up with someone in a single tank). It was usually 4ths with 3rds thrown in there on a regular basis. Seeings how I'm one of the most conservative divers that I know, if I'm breaking the rules, there's a pretty good chance everyone else is too. About the only rule I followed was that I did always stay on the mainline.
Those rules are there for a reason and no one is following them. I vote for the single tank for Intro. If you want to dive doubles either get a discretionary (which I had, but it had expired) or get more training. Once you get that and dive doubles at least you know what the rules are and why they are there. If you kill yourself after that, that's your problem. Just don't take out anyone I care about when you go.
Rick
Oh PLEASE let me know when you plan on doing this. I would love to have a ringside seat.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick68fl
I will put my money on Eric.
Johnny :twisted:
Naah... Eric and I get along great now... We just had a few rocky days back then.
I'm surprised that no one has tried yet, but you're right... I think Eric will probably surprise them, ex cop and all...
Rick
I certainly didnt get mad at the big guy,I knew he was just enforcing what he was told.He was very polite to us.Maybe a notice in the lobby would help.Iwas planning to go on to full cave this summer anyway,that just got me motivated quicker.Then Ill dive my doubles and enjoy the caves and other sights ,I still think GINNIE ROCKS!!!!!!
I thought he was an ex-lawyer? I know you could take an ex-lawyer :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by rick68fl
Ignore the guy from Indiana- he's too busy picking corn right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Johnny
:lol: :lol: :lol: :-D
Sometimes you guys make my day! It's like John Boy and Billy go cavediving........
Angie
PS. I think I met Eric when he told me to slow down before I run over some drunken teenagers. He has cop written all over him! All I could do was nod and say meekly okay. (I WAS hauling ass. I 'needed' to dive). I bet it was a hoot for him on Memorial weekend!
I saw the Jail was set out in the field this year...I wonder how many "bodies" were placed in there over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
I stayed up around the Luraville area Memorial day weekend ... I didn't even THINK about getting close to Ginnie :o :o :o
Jeano Beano
toucheQuote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
We were up there Memorial Day weekend. We tubed (IT IS A BLAST) on Saturday and dove Sunday!Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
There actually weren't a lot of people in the jail during the day. We stayed at the Cadillac so no idea about the evening/night.