Accident Analysis

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Tough to do an accident analysis when the only info you?re givin is bits and pieces of what happened.

Wagons circle up and it?s road block after road block.

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I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

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the stuff in the old IUCRR reports is great for a start.
gas in the tanks, how diver was found, gear he had and condition of it. anything relevant a surviving buddy may have had to say

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

1. Certification information as to involved parties, if known;
2. Experience of involved parties in terms of total number of dives, number of prior dives at incident location, as well as recent dives prior to incident, if known;
3. Equipment inventory of involved parties;
4. Environment inventory of incident location, reported locations of involved parties, reported observations of cave and line conditions;
5. Witness statements, if available; and
6. Computer downloads from involved parties, if available.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

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Not sure I can come up with 6 line items.

All objective information that was collected should be published. On the past 2 recoveries I have been a direct part of, I took DETAILED notes. I think all of that should be released. Position of the diver, equipment state, gas situation (volume, analysis on the tank, actual analyzed content), state of the regulators, mask, lights, scooters, etc. While most details were released on those two, I know not all of them were. In one case I actually think a detail that wasn’t released had an impact on the outcome of the deceased diver. I wish that could be shared. But...

One thing hat I’ve never been able to get is a computer download. There’s a lot that can be shown from that. Significant delays, rebreather po2. I think we could really get a good handle on how things transpired with a level of detail that we currently just don’t have. My notes only give what I find and can immediately observe.

The pressure recovery divers get to not say anything is really astounding to me. It makes a bad situation worse. I truly believe there’s lessons to be learned or reinforced from all of these. The 5 rules are good. But there’s more to it than that.

I've only got 5...

1. specific location, orientation, and condition of body
2. certification level of diver
3. equipment inventory including what was found on the body and the contents of the tanks/ccr, any staged bottles with their contents and location. Mask on/off, equipment generally disarrayed etc etc.
4. dive computer profile *super easy now with most of us diving Shearwaters to be able to display the graph which can tell a lot*
5. witness statements

if all of that was published, we'd be able to have a lot better discussion and I think the computer profile would actually sort out most of the commentary that happens afterwards as AJ said above. The information is all there, it just isn't released, and I truly have no idea why because if it was being done by say a police department dive team it would legally have to be published

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

1. Certification information as to involved parties, if known;
2. Experience of involved parties in terms of total number of dives, number of prior dives at incident location, as well as recent dives prior to incident, if known;
3. Equipment inventory of involved parties;
4. Environment inventory of incident location, reported locations of involved parties, reported observations of cave and line conditions;
5. Witness statements, if available; and
6. Computer downloads from involved parties, if available.

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Yes. This.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

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I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

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not by the police. she didnt seem to care.
by other divers

oh also what currently is happening is only a handful of local divers really get the full scoop on what happened. So pretty much anyone that lives south of Tampa, west of Tallahassee, north of Lake City, or east of Orlando doesn’t get the full deal. It’s a total disservice to cave divers.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

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I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

oh also what currently is happening is only a handful of local divers really get the full scoop on what happened.

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AJ, do you think they are really getting the full scoop, or just what is found after the accident. As example, at the EN incident, does anyone really know what happened at the restriction to Revelation space that caused these two guys to leave a rebreather, bail out, and scooter behind and bolt for the door? Or is that a detail that was withheld?

Did any of the other divers give a reason to withhold information? Is there a liability issue here that I am not understanding?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

AJ, do you think they are really getting the full scoop, or just what is found after the accident. As example, at the EN incident, does anyone really know what happened at the restriction to Revelation space that caused these two guys to leave a rebreather, bail out, and scooter behind and bolt for the door? Or is that a detail that was withheld?

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So I think that would get into developing a narrative that we can’t demonstrate given the evidence. “Why” something happened is tough to say since we can’t interview some who passed away. “What” happened is something we can report on.

Here’s an example: we could match shearwater depth/ time graphs and that could indicate if a diver was significantly delayed and if there was a prolonged buddy separation. Possible factors? Maybe. But we just don’t know because the information is withheld for whatever reason. To me that’s bad. SOMEONE has seen those downloads. But it wasn’t me, and it certainly isn’t the general cave diving community.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

So I think that would get into developing a narrative that we can?t demonstrate given the evidence. ?Why? something happened is tough to say since we can?t interview some who passed away. ?What? happened is something we can report on.
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I agree with you 100%. The only reason I asked was to try to give some answer to all of the yahoos that engage in endless speculations on the accident threads, some of which are both comical and cruel.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I agree with you 100%. The only reason I asked was to try to give some answer to all of the yahoos that engage in endless speculations on the accident threads, some of which are both comical and cruel.

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the endless speculation is because nothing gets released though. when these details DO get released, all that stuff is toned down a lot

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

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One thing that I want to point out is that nothing in my list is speculation.

I think that's something that should be reserved for individual cave divers to do on their own as part of a personal accident analysis thought exercise (or perhaps in a private conversation with respected peers and mentors). That can't be done unless cave divers are equipped with the 6 things I listed.

I would like everyone who chooses to engage in this activity to be equipped as a thinking cave diver and able to do this thought exercise and self inventory every time there is a fatality in a mindful fashion.



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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

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I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

I know for a fact that computer downloads help to piece together exactly what happened. I would like them be released to the public.

After my buddy and I had a bad day at the Nest coming back from Revelation space, our downloads answered a lit of questions. I was able to "layer" the two profiles to determine the exact timeframe of each of our actions even while separated. There is no room for guessing because the profiles show the facts.

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If the victim or any other diver in their team was wearing a GoPro, wouldn't it be useful to release the video they captured during the dive? Combined with downloaded computer data, that might give us a clearer idea of what lead up to the fatality.

This would be analogous to a long-standing practice in the aviation community. After an accident investigation is complete, they publish data from the "black boxes." Flight Data Recorder info is analogous to what we'd get from dive computer downloads. The Cockpit Voice Recorder would be analogous to GoPro video from the dive. In aviation, syncing flight data with voice data often provides a good picture of what happened that led up to the incident. Analyzing this has resulted in many aviation safety improvements.

The downsides I see to releasing video would be (a) The video and comments from the community might add to the family's anguish, (b) Parts of the video would likely be frightening as hell to us in the cave diving community, and (c) We'd probably have some in the community use the video to bash the divers' gear config, kick, skills, training agency, color of drysuit, and everything else)

Upsides: (a) In some cases we might actually learn what happened that led to the fatality (lost in a silt-out after a blind jump, wedged in a restriction, gear issue, etc) (b) If the terrifying bits scare us into diving more conservatively, good! (c) We may notice things -- skills, gear, etc. -- that causes us to reconsider own own skills or gear.

I don't have anything to add re:list of desired information. But I definitely want to throw in as another voice with a desire to get all of this information. I think the old IUCRR database as a resource for learning is pretty powerful. It's a shame that information doesn't get released like that anymore. If it makes everyone safer, it should be available.

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Originally Posted by bent

I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

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I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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I think AJ is bringing light to this Good Ole Boy crowd, as opposed to acting on their behalf. I'm pretty sure AJ is for as much disclosure as needed/possible. No reason to dislike his post(unless you just dislike the facts he is stating).

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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Well what do you want me to do? If I just buck the system and go rogue there?s a good chance I wouldn?t be involved in any capacity going forward and then you?d really be up the creek. Real authority is who takes leadership during these situations and calls the shots regarding who gets in the water and actually does something. Show up at 11pm on a Friday and try and negotiate and see how you do.

Any clown with a hammer can tear down a barn. Takes a bit more skill and thought to build one.

I agree with what lord1234 said.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation.

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that AJ is trying to cover up something?

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

Enough spine?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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I am with you in that I would like to have an overt report that we can have. I think the perception of it being a "good ole boys" network comes into play because the same people do the recoveries for the most part, and many are following the paradigm set up by Henry Nicholson, which calls for the reporting of the accident coming from law enforcement and ME, while it is still considered a crime scene.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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Dude really? The whole thread started as a result of AJ lamenting that more information isn't shared, and gave his perspective as a recovery diver and the pressure put upon him not to share (thank you for which, by the way)

Though I do give you credit for owning up to the downvotes...

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

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AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

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I have heard for many years about this deep state "good ole boys" network. What I don't like about it is the basic assumption that there are that many North Florida cave divers around anymore that can agree on anything, even where to get lunch.

How is the information that AJ is passing along detrimental? Aren't you shooting the messenger?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

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I can’t reaosnably conclude what impact speed in reporting has. But I suspect that people’s interest really cools and the result is no one pressing for the info to be released. So it isn’t.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

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I guess the real question is what were the reasons given to you at that time?

I have to agree with Kelly, I can see reasons to hold off giving all of the gory details instantly. I would think that common decency would allow for some time for the family to make some arrangements. Does anyone object to at least getting the dead guy buried before we start dissecting his mistakes? I would qualify that in if a piece of common equipment catastrophically failed, or bad gas, then that should be discussed.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I guess the real question is what were the reasons given to you at that time?

I have to agree with Kelly, I can see reasons to hold off giving all of the gory details instantly. I would think that common decency would allow for some time for the family to make some arrangements. Does anyone object to at least getting the dead guy buried before we start dissecting his mistakes? I would qualify that in if a piece of common equipment catastrophically failed, or bad gas, then that should be discussed.

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they were worried about lawsuits in the recovery i participated in

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

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I don't think it's so much of an argument that rapid dissemination of information would save lives, rather a lamentation that the status quo seems to be, "be patient, we're getting all the information together, we'll release information when it's ready," only for time to pass and the promised information never actually gets released. I'm not making an argument that we have the right to know anything at all, let alone before the lights are off on the squad cars, but being strung along doesn't really make anyone feel good about it.... By all means everyone needs time to decompress, gather their thoughts, organize the information, etc. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

It's not that information isn't getting released in a timely manner, it's that information isn't getting released at all. That there's a monopoly on information as dictated by what I guess people are calling the "good ol' boys club," isn't good for anyone. I mean, I guess they like knowing that they're the only people that have the information? I don't understand it. Seems pretty silly to me. It's not like they're nuclear launch codes or the key to the vault at Fort Knox.

?Lawsuits? ?the data belongs to the police? ?active investigation? ?HIPPA?.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

they were worried about lawsuits in the recovery i participated in

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Lawsuits against who? What would the basis be for suing a recovery diver?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Lawsuits against who? What would the basis be for suing a recovery diver?

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?\_(ツ)_/

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

?\_(ツ)_/

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this

There are a couple people involved in recoveries that really enjoy giving out details. That may sound out there or made up but a reality. I avoid people in cave country and generally dont talk to people at dive sites, but I have a couple of "well connected" friends. Anytime an incident occurs, I usually have all of the details by days end and typically immediately. This isnt true for all people involved in recovery, but there are a few who love the attention of being the information holder and enjoy the million texts they receive, and will freely give information to their friends with an assumed "hush hush about it" attached. If my friends dont get their info directly from those involved in the recovery they can easily get it from their friends who are buddies with recovery guys.
I have utmost respect for those involved in recovery and dont intend to detract from what they do. I definitely dont want to do it. But to say there isnt a "good old boys" mentality is incorrect. I actually refer to it as the sewing circle as some of these guys really enjoy to gab it up like my grandma and her friends


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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Well what do you want me to do? If I just buck the system and go rogue there?s a good chance I wouldn?t be involved in any capacity going forward and then you?d really be up the creek. Real authority is who takes leadership during these situations and calls the shots regarding who gets in the water and actually does something. Show up at 11pm on a Friday and try and negotiate and see how you do.

Any clown with a hammer can tear down a barn. Takes a bit more skill and thought to build one.

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I guess "sad" would be better than dislike, but I'm applauding you for doing what you're doing, and disliking the fact that you have to do it and are probably catching flack for doing it. It obviously came across as me disliking what you're doing vs. disliking what others are holding you back from doing, which is fully disclosing the information that we should all be getting in order to make a proper accident analysis. How in the hell are we supposed to analyze accidents, which is something we are taught about in the classes, when the people in charge won't disclose any information? AJ clearly wants to disclose it, if he could, then we would have as much information as anyone could possibly have so we could actually analyze the accident and maybe learn something from it.... Unfortunately, as he wrote above, and that we are all aware of, the first time he did would be the only time we ever actually got all of the information because he'd be kicked out of the "club" and we'd be back at square 1

Ken Hill and the rest of the IUCRR leadership are intentionally preventing the cave diving community from being able to conduct accident analysis. There has been no published incident report since 2015, and the information on that one is completely useless. Those are facts. You may not like them, but they're facts. If they published all of the information, and did it in a timely fashion, we could actually conduct accident analysis, which is something that everyone is taught in their cave course. Is analyzing accidents from the last 3 years which occur with modern equipment, modern diver training, etc. not important compared to analyzing accidents that are actually properly documented from more than a decade ago? As soon as the law enforcement has declared the case closed, everything should be out. The IUCRR should work the the LEO's to publish as much as they can as soon as they can, no different than in the aerospace world so you can actually learn from it. They clearly aren't trying to do that

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Originally Posted by Troglodyver

If the victim or any other diver in their team was wearing a GoPro, wouldn't it be useful to release the video they captured during the dive? Combined with downloaded computer data, that might give us a clearer idea of what lead up to the fatality.

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There are people on the internet that love "snuff films". Aside from making a new episode of "faces of death," I see no reason to release the videos.

Non-speculative information would be great. All the stuff we're supposed to collect -- orientation of the diver, pressure in the cylinders, whether the regs are functioning, etc. can be very helpful. I think certification / training / experience levels are also very useful and important.

On the recoveries I've been involved with I was told not to say a word and that this vow of silence was to protect me in the event a legal action ensues. I have been told there's a 2-year window for a case to be filed. One of the most difficult things I've ever had to do was bite my tongue and stay quiet while a good friend of mine was blasted on Facebook by a flaming a-hole.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

There are people on the internet that love "snuff films". Aside from making a new episode of "faces of death," I see no reason to release the videos.

Non-speculative information would be great. All the stuff we're supposed to collect -- orientation of the diver, pressure in the cylinders, whether the regs are functioning, etc. can be very helpful. I think certification / training / experience levels are also very useful and important.

On the recoveries I've been involved with I was told not to say a word and that this vow of silence was to protect me in the event a legal action ensues. I have been told there's a 2-year window for a case to be filed. One of the most difficult things I've ever had to do was bite my tongue and stay quiet while a good friend of mine was blasted on Facebook by a flaming a-hole.

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at least with the ginnie recovery, i was told to stfu but then someone who was not part of the recovery team posted a bunch of details. with at least one fact knowingly wrong

FWIW, I was at the very first recovery "class". I was the NSS-CDS training director at the time. Henry Nicholson had asked Sheck Exlely and me to set up the class. It is important to understand that Henry was a policeman, and most of what we covered was how to treat the recovery as a "crime scene". The current head of IUCRR is a former US Marshal. The IUCRR is concerned that if the various Sheriff's departments loose faith in the ability of the IUCRR to maintain the crime scene until the investigation is over, that law enforcement agencies won't allow the IUCRR to enter the crime scene. The local Sheriff's departments could go as far as closing the spring, if the local law enforcement isn't able to conduct the recovery themselves.

While I would love for the information listed in earlier posts to become immediately available, I also understand the IUCRR's caution in waiting for law enforcement to declare the case closed. The sad part is that law enforcement is only interested in the possibility of a crime, so once they have determined it was actually an accident, they are in no hurry to declare the case closed.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

at least with the ginnie recovery, i was told to stfu but then someone who was not part of the recovery team posted a bunch of details. with at least one fact knowingly wrong

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Right? Man that whole thing sucked.

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Originally Posted by FW

FWIW, I was at the very first recovery "class". I was the NSS-CDS training director at the time. Henry Nicholson had asked Sheck Exlely and me to set up the class. It is important to understand that Henry was a policeman, and most of what we covered was how to treat the recovery as a "crime scene". The current head of IUCRR is a former US Marshal. The IUCRR is concerned that if the various Sheriff's departments loose faith in the ability of the IUCRR to maintain the crime scene until the investigation is over, that law enforcement agencies won't allow the IUCRR to enter the crime scene. The local Sheriff's departments could go as far as closing the spring, if the local law enforcement isn't able to conduct the recovery themselves.

While I would love for the information listed in earlier posts to become immediately available, I also understand the IUCRR's caution in waiting for law enforcement to declare the case closed. The sad part is that law enforcement is only interested in the possibility of a crime, so once they have determined it was actually an accident, they are in no hurry to declare the case closed.

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This is totally at odds with how the police actually conduct themselves at one of these incidents.

I'm not sure what a recovery diver would be sued for. IANAL though so......

It seems to me that any of the divers might be called to testify in court, but I'm not sure how releasing any information would subject the diver to legal action as long as they're not speculating or saying anything libelous.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyC

I'm not sure what a recovery diver would be sued for. IANAL though so......

It seems to me that any of the divers might be called to testify in court, but I'm not sure how releasing any information would subject the diver to legal action as long as they're not speculating or saying anything libelous.

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real simple. The divers don't release it. The IUCRR does and gets liability insurance or whatever. Any diver acting under the IUCRR is protected under that policy and that policy is covered by donations, hopefully from the training agencies themselves. No different than the cops having to have liability insurance. The IUCRR divers send in their reports, the IUCRR compiles the information and releases a report in a timely manner. There is nothing they can get sued over for that information getting released, and if they did, the IUCRR deals with it because they were acting as an IUCRR diver. No different than when I am teaching for the University under their courses. I am covered by their umbrella policy because I am acting on their behalf. If someone goes after me, they go through the University, no different with this. The problem is the leadership of the IUCRR don't want to bother with that so they keep on obstructing the cave diving communities ability to conduct accident analysis by refusing to publish facts.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

Ken Hill and the rest of the IUCRR leadership are intentionally preventing the cave diving community from being able to conduct accident analysis.

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What would Ken or IUCRR gain from this?

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

This is totally at odds with how the police actually conduct themselves at one of these incidents.

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I agree. For the most part the officers on scene are glad to have help.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

What would Ken or IUCRR gain from this?

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not having to put the effort forward to actually do it, potentially ego driven from holding all the information, but likely just not wanting to change and put the effort forward

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Lawsuits against who? What would the basis be for suing a recovery diver?

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Hypothetically, if a piece of expensive gear were lost by the deceased during the accident, and a recovery diver was falsely accused of taking it, having made a public statement in writing could potentially incriminate them even if they are innocent.

Homework assignment:

Watch this, it may save your behind one day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

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Originally Posted by cmint

Hypothetically, if a piece of expensive gear were lost by the deceased during the accident, and a recovery diver was falsely accused of taking it, having made a public statement in writing could potentially incriminate them even if they are innocent.

Homework assignment:

Watch this, it may save your behind one day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

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I don't think we are all asking the divers to make a public statement. The IUCRR should be publishing the information, not the individuals

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Originally Posted by JohnnyC

"be patient, we're getting all the information together, we'll release information when it's ready," only for time to pass and the promised information never actually gets released. .

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We want a rapid report frequently, often to satisfy curiosity ,but does anybody ever go after the report, or do we stand by social media hoping it will appear. If a cave diving accident is treated as a crime scene, then that means it is investigated by law enforcement, and a report is released-which can and will take time. Does anybody ever request the information from the ME or police department conducting the investigation when the report is completed???

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

Ken Hill and the rest of the IUCRR leadership are intentionally preventing the cave diving community from being able to conduct accident analysis.

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Have you ever talked to Ken? Very approachable person and getting factual information directly from him would help some of the misinformation you have. He is a former US Marshall and cave diver/instructor since the mid-90s. He could give you good context and answer your questions directly.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

We want a rapid report frequently, often to satisfy curiosity ,but does anybody ever go after the report, or do we stand by social media hoping it will appear. If a cave diving accident is treated as a crime scene, then that means it is investigated by law enforcement, and a report is released-which can and will take time. Does anybody ever request the information from the ME or police department conducting the investigation when the report is completed???

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we shouldn't have to, that is a huge part of the justification for the existence of the IUCRR and is all over their website, problem is they aren't doing it. They used to provide useful reports, including Ken starting threads about incidents and followed up with useful reports

Initial thread started by the IUCRR the day following the incident
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ond-the-Hinkel

an actually useful incident report that gives all of the information that we are asking for aside from computer profiles which were admittedly kind of a crap shoot in 2008
http://www.iucrr.org/mar10-2008.php

Compare that to the most recent report from 2015 which is completely useless. What changed in the last 10 years that they are now choosing not to publish useful reports?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

the endless speculation is because nothing gets released though. when these details DO get released, all that stuff is toned down a lot

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I disagree, mindless speculation happens every time whether or not a detailed report is released. For example in 2011 after we had the co accident in Cozumel we reported a detailed description of the accident only to have 20 pages on why that's couldn't of been what happened. A year later Jim Wyatt gave a full report on a diver dying from breathing O2 at depth again 20 pages about the truth being withheld till the thread got kocked. Sorry but every time someone tries reporting what happens it makes no difference, page after page after page of mindless speculation. A-holes, cave divers with personal agenders and those who can't Handel any truth nevermind the truth flood the internet. So don't complain that no one ever reports when every time someone does report they're made to regret it.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

we shouldn't have to, that is a huge part of the justification for the existence of the IUCRR and is all over their website, problem is they aren't doing it. They used to provide useful reports, including Ken starting threads about incidents and followed up with useful reports

Initial thread started by the IUCRR the day following the incident
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ond-the-Hinkel

an actually useful incident report that gives all of the information that we are asking for aside from computer profiles which were admittedly kind of a crap shoot in 2008
http://www.iucrr.org/mar10-2008.php

Compare that to the most recent report from 2015 which is completely useless. What changed in the last 10 years that they are now choosing not to publish useful reports?

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The question is has rampant speculation helped? Has complaining about getting an accident report helped? Has complaining about the IUCRR helped? Are we any better off now than we were last year, or year before...? Using the same formula on social media will more likely have the same result,so, why not try something different. All I can say is talk to the people who are responsible for the questions you seek answers to.

Pack it up boys it’s settled. Status quo.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

?Lawsuits? ?the data belongs to the police? ?active investigation? ?HIPPA?.

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Well I can assure all potential recovery divers that the HIPAA threat is BS. Recovery divers are not covered entities meaning HIPAA doesn't have any bearing. HIPAA only applies to healthcare and insurance providers.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

... Does anybody ever request the information from the ME or police department conducting the investigation when the report is completed???

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That would entail actual work, not just keystrokes on the Internet. :-)

I was at the midwest workshop a couple of years back where Lamar Hires gave an excellent presentation on IUCRR, its policies and practice. If memory serves correctly, Peter Buzzacott who was also there wrote an article on the subject matter which summarized it well. Personally, I think IUCRR's policy has room to allow for factual data along the lines of what tbone and others have noted to be published without unreasonable exposure to lawsuits. Accident analysis and reports are not unique to cave diving.

I can't speak to the deep state theory, but I would suspect that IUCRR being a volunteer organization has something to do with it. It's one thing to hand over information to law enforcement, quite another to compile information for public release. Someone has to vet the information by talking to all the recovery divers, checking for errors or inconsistencies, etc. If publicly released data is inaccurate, there is certainly risk of litigation with good cause.

So, if say, 5 people with necessary background and competence get together and volunteer their time to perform this task, and propose formally to the IUCRR (or through CDS as an agenda item at a board meeting), I would think that a proposal might be seriously considered. Perhaps even have a chance of being adopted. Instead, if all that's being said is that IUCRR should do this and that, in essence, dictating what others should do with their own time, I am not sure I would consider such exclamations (however well-intentioned) seriously.

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Right on.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them.

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Exactly right! I have said several times in posts the human defense mechanism rationalization.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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if they don't want to write up anything for us *which they technically do*, then they have to specifically remove that as something their organization does. Their website very clearly states they they owe it to us, and they are choosing not to. Some quotes from their website

"Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it."

"It is also pertinent to know that we do not hold any information back, with one exception noted below. Once the recovery divers have written their report, law-enforcement has released that information, and the regional coordinator has checked it for accuracy and approved it, the information is posted on this web site. No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)). "

"have a single-point for consolidation of accident reports, and provide accident analysis services for the benefit of all underwater-overhead divers. "

so, why do you say "they don't owe writing up crap for us"? If they don't want to, that's fine, but rewrite everything above to remove the very specific parts where they say they will, because they aren't

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

What changed in the last 10 years that they are now choosing not to publish useful reports?

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IMHO, what has changed is the overall vitriol and general nastiness that is floating around today. It is not just a matter of the amount of self serving speculation anymore, it is the overall tone of most conversations, particularly on social media, and from members of the diving community. This thread is an example.

You need to come to a couple of basic conclusions.
1 - No recovery diver is doing it for personal enjoyment, at least I hope not. It you are, seek help. It is a community service.
2 - IUCRR was established as an organization that assists law enforcement. They were never a public information service. I will agree that since Ken has taken over, the public information has basically stopped.
3 - People who demand instant answers, and then hound recovery divers or post page after page of stupid analysis based on no facts are idiots, and look at any accident thread, we have a lot of idiots.
4 - Accidents can happen to you. You are not immune. You can study every case, do mindful reflections, talk to peers, take additional training (just not from CDS), doesn't matter, you are not immune. I have found that experience is the best remedy, but just remember, anyone can fark up.

You guys doing recovery dives, thank you. It is a public service, and is appreciated. My advise is that the next time one of the good ole boys pressure you into shutting up, tell them in no uncertain terms to F6ck Off. Tell them that if they cannot come up with a factual report in a few weeks, that you will. Ted and that team did a pretty good job of releasing facts on the EN incident, maybe not everything, but certainly better than nothing. No one was sued, no one was prosecuted, no one had their birthday taken away from them, or caught a STD.

LiteHedded, it is only status quo as long as there is a supply of recovery divers willing to accept it. Don't push all the blame off on IUCRR. Or the so called good ole boys. When they run out of people willing to uproot their lives, spend their money and time and expose themselves to the risks involved, you can bet your mamas dimpled ass that it will change.

Finally, I am not sure who told any of you that you were entitled to all the facts being published for you without you actually doing something on your own to obtain them, but they were lying to you.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Finally, I am not sure who told any of you that you were entitled to all the facts being published for you without you actually doing something on your own to obtain them, but they were lying to you.

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well, the IUCRR does on their website....

"Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it."

"It is also pertinent to know that we do not hold any information back, with one exception noted below. Once the recovery divers have written their report, law-enforcement has released that information, and the regional coordinator has checked it for accuracy and approved it, the information is posted on this web site. No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)). "

"have a single-point for consolidation of accident reports, and provide accident analysis services for the benefit of all underwater-overhead divers. "

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

IMHO, what has changed is the overall vitriol and general nastiness that is floating around today. It is not just a matter of the amount of self serving speculation anymore, it is the overall tone of most conversations, particularly on social media, and from members of the diving community. This thread is an example.

You need to come to a couple of basic conclusions.
1 - No recovery diver is doing it for personal enjoyment, at least I hope not. It you are, seek help. It is a community service.
2 - IUCRR was established as an organization that assists law enforcement. They were never a public information service. I will agree that since Ken has taken over, the public information has basically stopped.
3 - People who demand instant answers, and then hound recovery divers or post page after page of stupid analysis based on no facts are idiots, and look at any accident thread, we have a lot of idiots.
4 - Accidents can happen to you. You are not immune. You can study every case, do mindful reflections, talk to peers, take additional training (just not from CDS), doesn't matter, you are not immune. I have found that experience is the best remedy, but just remember, anyone can fark up.

You guys doing recovery dives, thank you. It is a public service, and is appreciated. My advise is that the next time one of the good ole boys pressure you into shutting up, tell them in no uncertain terms to F6ck Off. Tell them that if they cannot come up with a factual report in a few weeks, that you will. Ted and that team did a pretty good job of releasing facts on the EN incident, maybe not everything, but certainly better than nothing. No one was sued, no one was prosecuted, no one had their birthday taken away from them, or caught a STD.

LiteHedded, it is only status quo as long as there is a supply of recovery divers willing to accept it. Don't push all the blame off on IUCRR. Or the so called good ole boys. When they run out of people willing to uproot their lives, spend their money and time and expose themselves to the risks involved, you can bet your mamas dimpled ass that it will change.

Finally, I am not sure who told any of you that you were entitled to all the facts being published for you without you actually doing something on your own to obtain them, but they were lying to you.

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i've done more than one recovery and I've seen it handled both ways and no one got sued of course.
i know which way i prefer, and I'm sure most people would agree.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

well, the IUCRR does on their website....

"Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it."

"It is also pertinent to know that we do not hold any information back, with one exception noted below. Once the recovery divers have written their report, law-enforcement has released that information, and the regional coordinator has checked it for accuracy and approved it, the information is posted on this web site. No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)). "

"have a single-point for consolidation of accident reports, and provide accident analysis services for the benefit of all underwater-overhead divers. "

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Read their mission statement. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Call Ken, talk to him. Stop whining. For Christs sake man, bitching and moaning will get you nothing.

Don't you understand the position they are in. If they post nothing, people B!tch. If they are not timely in posting, people B!tch If the report does not meet some sort of perceived standard people B!tch. What is the upside for them to do anything? IUCRR is performing a community service, but when the community is full of nasty, demanding jackholes, why should they care?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

no one got sued of course.

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Yes, but did anyone get a STD?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Yes, but did anyone get a STD?

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Uncertain.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

...no one got sued of course...

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Yes, but did anyone get a STD?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Uncertain.

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:rollguy

I came in late to this discussion. Can someone give me a synopsis?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Yes, but did anyone get a STD?

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Psst - the correct terminology is now STI (sexually transmitted infection). Don't ask me why, but those who know (or think they know) like to change labels just when they become common vernacular. Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by divindoc

Psst - the correct terminology is now STI (sexually transmitted infection). Don't ask me why, but those who know (or think they know) like to change labels just when they become common vernacular. Just sayin...

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Makes sense, I went for a couple of years thinking UTD was Urinary Tract Disorder.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

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As in health records or autopsy results? The latter are public record unless under active criminal investigation.

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Originally Posted by Six Feet Under

As in health records or autopsy results? The latter are public record unless under active criminal investigation.

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If it's public knowledge why then does anyone need to release it.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

If it's public knowledge why then does anyone need to release it.

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IMO, it would be nice to have all of the information related to the accident compiled into one PDF or something similar. The medical examiner's report/autopsy results and law enforcement death investigation report are both public record once closed, but the information most divers would find beneficial (the recovery team's notes/statements) will likely not be quoted word-for-word in either of the aforementioned public records. The simple truth is that no one individual is going to submit a FOIA request for ALL public records pertaining to each cave diving death. I'd like to see an entity do this in an attempt to better educate divers on real world examples of what goes wrong and how those circumstances led to someone's demise. Hypothetical "what if's" are great, but they don't come with the same level of seriousness as a real dive accident that ended in someone's death.

I see no benefit to everything being so hush-hush, except for some perceived fear of liability that doesn't really exist...

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Originally Posted by Six Feet Under

IMO, it would be nice to have all of the information related to the accident compiled into one PDF or something similar. The medical examiner's report/autopsy results and law enforcement death investigation report are both public record once closed, but the information most divers would find beneficial (the recovery team's notes/statements) will likely not be quoted word-for-word in either of the aforementioned public records. The simple truth is that no one individual is going to submit a FOIA request for ALL public records pertaining to each cave diving death. I'd like to see an entity do this in an attempt to better educate divers on real world examples of what goes wrong and how those circumstances led to someone's demise. Hypothetical "what if's" are great, but they don't come with the same level of seriousness as a real dive accident that ended in someone's death.

I see no benefit to everything being so hush-hush, except for some perceived fear of liability that doesn't really exist...

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I'd like to see that too, I'd like to see local hospitals open up there chambers to divers instead of flying them out of county, I'd like like to see all divers embrace conservation and work together to protect the systems, I'd like to see the backstabbing and petty one-up-manship between cave divers and agents go away, but I don't see it happening. All I can do is realize that no one is going to make me safe but me, I do what I can to make the system better then before and to rise above the bull. I am not saying your wrong, I am saying that until someone makes doing the research and putting ir all together their little baby project and since I don't see anyone volunteering, it ain't happening.

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Originally Posted by Six Feet Under

. I'd like to see an entity do this in an attempt to better educate divers on real world examples of what goes wrong and how those circumstances led to someone's demise.

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If people are not satisfied with IUCRR or other cave diving entities, why not form an entity that will do that? Creation of other cave diving entities were formed due to a reason, be it not satisfied with status quo, profit, or spite. The people who feel the need for information in a format that is wanted, as rapidly as wanted, why not do it? Like the other volunteer agencies it will take time consumption of a person or group of people to put this together, and publish it,but be forewarned, you will have social media critics that won't be satisfied- hint- recruit them or have them form their own entity...:-)

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

If people are not satisfied with IUCRR or other cave diving entities, why not form an entity that will do that? Creation of other cave diving entities were formed due to a reason, be it not satisfied with status quo, profit, or spite. The people who feel the need for information in a format that is wanted, as rapidly as wanted, why not do it? Like the other volunteer agencies it will take time consumption of a person or group of people to put this together, and publish it,but be forewarned, you will have social media critics that won't be satisfied- hint- recruit them or have them form their own entity...:-)

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Great idea Kelly. I look forward to the new organization.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

I'd like to see that too, ....... I'd like like to see all divers embrace conservation and work together to protect the systems, I'd like to see the backstabbing and petty one-up-manship between cave divers and agents go away, but I don't see it happening. .........

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DILLY DILLY!
Well said MA.