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Any feedback on getting by with Full cave Cert in mid 90's and Abe Davis. Is this really something that is being enforced (cave DPV)? Hate to drive the extra 4 hours and not be able to make the dives I've been making there for the past 20 years. Any feedback from recent experience is appreciated. Thanx.
In the past "don't ask, don't tell, just providing a cave card worked pretty well.
This past weekend I noticed Beth walking around the parking lot by Little Devils and she appeared to be watching which cars divers with scooters came from. Then I would see her walk around by the cars apparently reviewing the parking slips for DPV endorsements... Yes, I did say "she appeared" to be doing this. But when was the last time management was walking around there?
In the past I would get in with history and an Abe Davis endorsement. When I renewed my annual this time, they were quite clear in requiring a DPV card.
YMMV
They are definitely keeping track of stuff. I assume the Abe Davis = OK to scooter rule has been thrown out (It made absolutely no sense anyway). In the past few months since Rose is gone, there is generally somebody wandering around checking things out. Not every time and not consistently, but way more than in the past.
You could play stupid and say you didn't know and take your chances, but there's a decent enough chance you'll get questioned.
On my way home after a short dive trip. Hit JB, Little River and Peacock. Didn’t even bother with Ginnie now that they require CCR Cave.
For those of us that got grandfathered in in the mid-90s we can quote the ruling and date. The trouble maybe convincing the person behind the cash register or their new manager of this rule, because at least Rose knew about it due to her longevity. The people at Ginnie do check to make sure your pass and what they see you carrying to the water match. Does Ginnie management read our posting on the forum-yes; so perhaps seeing posts like this and making their staff aware will enhance the check in process.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavekrazi
Cave DPV course isn't really that expensive.
Instructors currently in cave country that teach it are solid.
Guarantee that you'd learn a bit diving with someone like Dan Patterson or other dpv cave instructors around here.
Sounds like a fun trip resulting in a cert that avoids future issues.
I recently ran a CCR Cave Upgrade (crossover from OC to CCR) for a friend that is a fairly accomplished OC diver (~800ish cave dives, many of them exploration, used to hold the end of the line in Madison, Manatee, and Ginnie all at the same time, plus some very big mapping projects and a lot of deep diving).
Given that we had been planning on diving that weekend for a few months, and he and I had previously done some longer CCR dives (scootering to Sheck's Mountain, etc), we were very informal in the class, but I covered all of the material and skills in the CCR Cave course anyway -- I'm a by the book guy.
After the weekend was over, he told me he learned a few tricks during the course that added arrows into his quiver. YMMV, but if a guy like that could learn something during a few days of diving with an instructor...
Ken, I have yet to find someone that knows everything and new things to be learned. You taught me many years ago I was capable of carrying double 95s from the parking lot to Jug Hole...:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
And I think I tried to convince you not to do it.. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Probably did... what doesn't kill you makes you better. Still a very great dive for my first time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
But in that instance, what doesn't kill you leaves you hobbling around in pain. Thank god there's now a cart.
Those tree roots though.....
That's why it's great to bring 1st timers there. You can volunteer to pull the cart for the fist half of the trail. ;)
So many other places to dive besides Ginnie. I don't miss it
Newbies are great for diving the out of the way places and ask them to walk down the trail to check the water conditions. It clears all the banana spider webs for you...:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
During training our instructor, Michael O'Leary, took us for a short walk in the woods out to Challenge Sink. As Vermonters, we were sure that Florida was just chock full of poisonous snakes waiting to sink their fangs into us, and our fears were heightened when Mike picked up a stout stick before entering the woods. But instead of using it to repel snakes, he used it to whack down the numerous spider webs across the trail. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Beth's job is enforcing all the rules of cave diving in Ginnie. She told me late last year that all the rules will be enforced and there will be no grandfather exceptions.
Cave DPV, Overhead SM, CCR Cave Certification, etc.
It is a private corporation so they can do whatever they want.
If you have an annual pass you always had to show your certifications and they would put it on your annual pass.
As we all know , it is their business.
So you can't dive sidemount anymore unless you got a SM card?Quote:
Originally Posted by shellmoundal
Are these rules written down anywhere? I looked over the Ginnie Springs website and their online brochure - there is a list of diving rules but no mention of DPV's, CCR, etc.
What does this even mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by shellmoundal
There is a big difference in sidemount and overhead sidemount in some agencies. Esp PASA.Quote:
Originally Posted by josh
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In my opinion it is your job as the CDS bod to represent the interest of the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by shellmoundal
I do not feel this is happening, certainly not if you OK the absolute stupidity of Ginnie requiring a SM card for a cave where 99% of the SM divers never even go into a sidemount passage.
Never mind CCR cave which in my opinion is on rank #2 of the most useless certs ever.
What's next, do you need an overhead photography class to bring your gopro? Do we need to do the cave survey class to be allowed to survey a piece of line?
Those rules are BS and I would expect the NSS-CDS to support the community, not this madness.
Having said that, I would prefer Ginnie requires first time visitors to do a check-dive to assess their in-water skills and make sure they can even frog kick.
P.S: Funny that Ginnie has the rules all under perfect control yet cannot even keep people from guiding OW divers in Devil's...
Attachment 17810
These are now required too.
You can do your full cave in SM configuration. The SM cave card is an 'advanced cave' card.
I am only speaking for myself and not in an official capacity as an NSS-CDS board member, and I am sure I am going to have an unpopular position on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Land access to the Devil's Ear/Eye cave system goes through the Ginnie Springs Outdoors park, which is on private property. Ginnie Springs does a huge amount of business with the tubing/swimming/camping crowd and I would not be surprised to find out that they earn more in one summer weekend from tubers/campers than they do in any six month period from cave divers.
The landowners of Ginnie Springs Outdoors carry liability insurance which has hefty premiums, and they are completely within their right to request/require any certification that they see fit in order to access the system through their property that satisfies their underwriters.
Personally, I am grateful they still allow cave diving on their property. If you're unhappy with the rules, go someplace else.
Let me also add that I do not think you fully appreciate that members of the NSSCDS and GUE have worked hard to maintain a positive relationship with the management of Ginnie Springs Outdoors in order to help keep cave diving an activity that is allowed on their property.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
I agree. Their property, their insurance, their rules.
It would be good if GSO would publish their rules on their website so that divers would know what the deal is before going there, rather than being told while checking in that changes have been made.
And it might be beneficial to both GSO and the cave diving community if the NSS-CDS offered to assist GSO management in coming up with a set of rules that make sense. Maybe this is already the case.
Mike
And yet they cannot do a thing if I decide to do a sidemount rebreather, scooter dive with my Gopro, or maybe even a single tank dive up Hill 400 using a chemlight as my only source of illumination ..... as long as I do it from the river and don't step foot on their property.
So with all that you have said Ken, riddle me this, if the cave diving and cave divers are such a pain in the arse for GSO, their insurance underwriters, and staff, with little to no return for their efforts, why wouldn't they have stopped allowing this cave diving nonsense from their property years ago ??????
I would think drunk masses hanging out the back of a pickup would be more of a liability then the relativity small number of cave divers.
Also once a dive enters the water are they not leaving GSO property?
Al
Wheres's your car locatedQuote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Al
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What agency does this? Sorry, but that does not sound right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Germie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
PSAI offers an Overhead Sidemount Diver course. At least, they used to. The folks at Ginnie have never asked me to produce that card when renewing my annual.
IANTD, PATD, CMAS, TDI, etc. I think all agencies allow this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
Equipment OC is or doubles , or sidemount. After the (full) cave course you can do the advanced cave course sidemount/no mount cave course.
You can do intro to cave in sidemount too.
Some references from Internet:
http://www.iantd.uk.com/courses-cave.php
All bottom mix tanks must be equipped with dual-outlet (H or Y) valves or double tanks, which may be either side-mounted or with dual orifice manifold
http://www.underthejungle.com/en/tdi...-diver-course/
Equipment: Back Mount or Side Mount Tec Rig Using Double Cylinders
Even cavern can be done in sidemount already.
In a (full) cave course you don't do equipment removal. This is part of an advanced cave sidemount/no mount course.
What does a persons vehicle have to do with this? What I?m getting at, once a diver enters the water aren?t they leaving GSO?s property? So how would GSO be libel? Just wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Even if you're not liable in a suit, the cost of defending yourself is high. How many companies -- and individuals -- have gone bankrupt over the cost of defending themselves against something? Many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Al
Because when you're wife sues Ginnie when you die, her lawyer will say your car was on their property so they're liable for you death to try to defeat Ginnie's lawyer who says you died off their property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Al
The problem is you're thinking from a normal person's perspective. Think from the perspective of either a lawyer trying to get paid the most bucks possible for his client, Ginnie's insurers who want the leas tliability possible, or Ginnie who wants to minimize liability and cost of their insurance.
This is worse then politics [emoji15]
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Al, the same logic could apply to the divers who perished at School sink. Did the CDS attorney use this as a defense? I don't think they did for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Al
I never understood how some of these private cave owners manage to get insurance for divers to exceed their agency standards. It certainly adds risk by precluding an instructor from diving with them unless of course they are in a class.
Sean, it comes down to respecting the desire of the landowner who has granted accessibility. Then it comes down to is it worthwhile to maintain access for the majority because the small minority expose them to risk and liability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanmeboy
I think all you guys should just stop going to GSO. That will show them, the heartless bastards. Yeah, I know that will only leave you with a hundred or so caves to dive in Florida, but sometimes you just have to make a statement against injustice.
This post should be required reading for everyone whinging about the new Ginnie rules. Or possibly everyone, full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
The potential difference is that school sink is geographically isolated (and privately owned) whereas the Santa Fe River is a state-owned water way. So, by entering the river or spring run, a person has left Ginnie property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
And then depending where they go in the cave they go back onto it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
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One thing I was told is that the Sportmans Law exemption doesn't apply if they charge any fees to access the site. As assinin as the rules are they own the sandbox so if you want to play in it you have to abide by their rules. Personally I just go elsewhere. I enjoy the river caves much more than dealing with a bunch of idiots.
Please explain... are you saying that GSO owns the actual cave under their property? Even the map they sell in the shop show very little of the Devils system is south of the river bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Yes, I believe they do. That's also why I said "depending on where they go in the cave." There's no such thing as an underground & underwater "navigable waterway."Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
I think the Sportsman's law in one thing we keep calling on,but is really poorly understood. If the Sportman's law was that the savior we wish it was, we would still have access at Telford. They lost a lawsuit from someone getting injured on their property, which they weren't charging access to, and their fear of more lawsuits and liability is what caused the closure of the property.
So by this logic, owning the cave under their property, gives them "control" of very little. I.e. Little Devils, the eye, half of the bone room and down past the big room. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Who owns the property on the north side of the Santa Fe?
That's a different question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
As for who owns the other side of the river, I would defer to whatever is listed on the property appraisers office.
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So this is the legal theory that I thought could have been interesting for the School sink lawsuit, if the victims were located in sections of the cave that extended beyond the property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus
Indeed...Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
Hypothetical: I own Blackacre which is on the south side of the Greywater River.# The Greywater River is owned by the State of Confusion, which has sovereign immunity.##On the opposite shore to the north is Whiteacre, owned by the Acme lumber company.
One of the attractions at Blackacre is the zipline which goes from a bluff at the top of Blackacre, across the Greywater River, and onto Whiteacre.# I charge a premium to engage in this activity vs. all my other visitors.# My visitors zipline across the river, some land in the river, some go all the way to Whiteacre, and then swim back.# I don't have permission from Whiteacre to do this and it's disputed whether they are aware of the activity.##
A:#
A visitor using the zipline lets go right away, before going off the bluff, and breaks their ankle on Blackacre.# Who has liability?
B:
A visitor using the zipline lets go above the Greywater River and drowns.# Who has liability?
C:
A visitor using the zipline lets go above Whiteacre and breaks their ankle.# Who has liability?
D:
A visitor using the zipline makes it to Whiteacre without injury but while swimming back to Blackacre drowns in the middle of the river.# Who has liability?
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I actually think GSO is justified to act like there is an assumed liability on their part for divers who acces via their park. Much like a dive charter op cannot forget about you once you enter the water. GSO is acting as a Dive operator and is a likely target when something goes wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
I feel the problem is in an odd, inconsistent network of training and certifications. Ginnie does not want people diving from their operation beyond their training/cert level. That makes total sense to me. But the way training and certs have evolved over the last 25yrs, they have a tough job calling balls & strikes at the counter amongst teaming hoards of tubers and college kids.
Ginnie can do whatever they want, as they own the property, but I find the certification requirement an odd justification. There is clearly a need to be cavern certified in order to dive in a cavern and I'm unaware of any training agency that (actively, in writing) endorses diving in an overhead environment without additional training. So, if the motivation was purely liability and certification, it would seem that requiring a cavern card to access the ballroom would naturally follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
The larger issue is that CCR diving is perceived as more dangerous than OC diving, a perception that hasn't really been helped by a lot of big name cave divers or even CCR manufacturers.
I got thrown out of Arby's today for not wearing pants.
This is BS! Pants are not required for eating delicious roast beef sandwiches!
Now there is no way for me to ever eat any sandwiches because they want to insist on some sort of ludicrous "pants" rule.
It just makes me so angry!
That example is just ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by oya
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the card requirements do not make sense, absolutely zero sense.
And I'm not speaking on my behalf as I have all the classes and cards for the type of diving I would do at Ginnie. So it's not even my problem.
And of course agencies like the one you are interning for do nothing about it and gladly accept that everyone wanting to scooter at Ginnie gets another card. It's all about the money.
I'd even be ok with that, provided the instructors would guarantee proper classes. Which quite apparently they don't if you look at the sorry state of some instructors diving skills and those of the students they produce.
Sad, very sad...
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I can't believe all the BS this thread I started has exposed. Ginnie Cave DPV, Ginnie Cave Sidemount...How about Ginnie "Master Cave Diver". There has got to be an undernourished cave instructor behind this certification card run up. Hey Mr. Master Cave Diver Trainer, how about cutting us old guys that have been diving these springs for 25 years some slack. By now I think I know not to scooter through Mainland, but I'd like to scooter to it. I didn't even know there was a Cave Sidemount card. You really are pushing people away from some great cave diving. Who's gonna police the redneck stoners and the underage drunks if the grey haired cave divers go somewhere else? O Hell, I'll probably pop for the full "Master Cave Diver Certification" eventually, probably will learn some great stuff along the way, and look back on the days when I was Master of nothing and realize the error in my ways. I gotta do something, or what good was buying that 140 dollar Ginnie map.
I was typing while you were ranting. Great minds think alike...sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I would think the hordes of drunk/drugged, stupid college kids and rednecks would be a far greater liability (revenue source or not) and deserve more policing than they get by the facility staff than they get...Quote:
Originally Posted by cavekrazi
And those pesky stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
You forgot to mention the insurance companies.. they believe so as well
Mixed gas diving was perceived as more dangerous than air diving not that long ago. What I was getting at is that ccr diving trades risk. You might have increased risk of a wrong gas accident (hypo or hyperoxia), but you gain a lot in reduced time pressure to solve problems. It's much like the perception that solo diving is more dangerous than team diving. Solo divers may not have a buddy to bail them out, but they also don't have a buddy to cause problems for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by cerich
Yep. All decisions are made by those fat cats at Big Scuba.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I agree with you completely on quality training, though.
That is actually the lens through which I'd hope most people would try to see this. That even people who have been scootering Ginnie with rebreathers since before either of those things were even invented might look for someone who might teach them something instead of looking for someone who would just cut them a card or just bitching about it on the internet.
Any which way it doesn't matter. Ginnie owns the access. Their ball: their rules. Remember the chapter on landowner relations?
What really gets me about the quality of training is the people that are in a position to do something about it are often the worst offenders or totally clueless. Here is a prime example with the CDS.
https://youtu.be/J5sfYT-smMo
Ginnie is not making any money off of asking people to have a dpv certs though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Ginnie knows very little about cave diving. They ask the instructors and agencies what they would recommend and that is why the new rules are being instituted.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
It's just the instructors and agencies that are making money off of it.
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So are you insinuating that the reason Ginnie is changing the rules is that local instructors are making those recommendations to Ginnie ownership in order to put money in their (ie instructors') pockets?Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Yeah. Instructors and agencies are probably the wrong people to ask. So-called-experts are far to self-interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I'd suggest putting out a paper poll with the menus on 1/2-price burger night at The Great Outdoors. It's time for the common man to have a voice. Vote for safe cave diving practices and get 1/2 off a desert!
Even if we assume this to be true (and I doubt it is), so what?Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Not sure I really understand the comparisons you are making.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Well let's see you have a CDS BOD member and I believe the CDS property manager filming someone who clearly has no clue what sidemount is in a CDS owned cave that has fragile clay banks. Isn't one of the purposes of the CDS conservation? Is this type of configuration something the CDS endorses? The person who made this video was apparently proud of what was going on in this video and posted it. This isn't the first time that videos showing sloppy configurations that are bound to cause cave damage have been posted by this BOD member. When you go to Mexico the guys there laugh at most Florida instructors and while there are exceptions is anyone going to deny that this isn't true? The CDS likes to claim they are the best and I ask by what metric?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Personally I think the guys profile would have been better in bm and if you don't see anything wrong with this video I guess we have different views on what a proper sidemount configuration should look like.
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't seen the CDS claim to be the best, matter of fact I haven't seen anybody playing king of the mountain. What I do like from the CDS and former NACD, was that instructor candidates had to intern with several different instructors, and then they had to pass an institute that had peer review. The advantage here is that a future instructor has had contact with many instructors before they are signed off on, versus some agencies which can be from one instructor -trainer only.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Just ask Wyatt he seems to like to post that regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Wait! You mean to tell me that those guys weren?t laughing WITH me? [emoji25]Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
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Wait... You mean I had to go all the way to Mexico if I wanted to get good cave training? Could I possibly have gotten quality instruction if my guy has BEEN to Mexico?! I'm just sad to hear that my cards are worthless now...
Oops, I learned cavediving in Thailand, that will be bad then, the opposite site of the world. :D
Am I ok I learned in Florida but my instructor is from the UK????
One of the big problems with cave diving training is most instructors only train divers to dive in the local area. This is true in Florida, Mexico, and anywhere else cave diving training is done. A couple examples are Florida cave diving instructors not allowing northern divers to train using gloves. I say "why not?". They will be diving in gloves when they go home. On the other hand, Mexican instructors only teach aluminum 80s, and any US diver that trains there will probably be diving steel tanks in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Oh no...Ginnie Cave Glove certification. Is that required for gloves with fingers cut out or just full cave gloves???
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Forrest I agree with what you are saying some what and that is an issue. I would argue that often times it is that way because the instructor only knows one way. This is a failure of the instructor. If they don't know they should say so or maybe send the student to an instructor who could better serve them. A prime example of this was when I changed over from bm to sidemount. I knew absolutely nothing about sidemount and thus went to a highly recommend instructor who was supposedly the sm guru of North Florida. I took a sm class and was sold an SMS 100. I asked about several other sm rigs and the instructor told me they were all a pos. The instructor now posts pictures of himself diving one of the rigs I asked about and he told me it was a pos. Was this the instructor just pushing a product that he sold? Was it ignorance? I don't know but as a professional who I was paying to take a class from he should have told me the truth not pushed gear. I asked about traveling with the SMS and diving Al 80's too. I was told oh you don't need another bc just slap a 2 or 3lb weight on the cam band. I did exactly 1 trip like that and when I came back I told him that this sucked. The guy looked at me and said yeah I know. Wtf? This is a professional? Don't even get me started on Florida instructors who can't even frog kick. Just go to Gennie or Peacock on a busy weekend and can anyone honestly not say that there isn't a problem. People can attack me and I never said that all Florida instructors are that way and certainly there are some crappy instructors in Mexico too but I definitely feel that the Stealth or Razor guys turn out better looking students than a lot of the Florida instructors. Oh and if you are taking your Florida style sm rig to Mexico with weights on the cam bands they will definitely laugh at you and you are just reinforcing their belief that most Florida cave divers look like crap in the water.
Can anyone who has spent time in Mexico honestly say that this isn't true? I have seen it and have had other who have told me that too. Why don't the Florida centric agencies do something about this?
There's definitely some truth to what you're saying. It doesn't mean Mexican instructors are better, but I have found a larger group of instructors I trust and respect in Mexico more than that which I've found in Florida. The shops I frequent in Mexico are a hell of a lot better run than those in cave country. I also find a lot more open-mindedness from the instructors I know in Mexico to different ideas and ways of diving than I have found here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
At the same time there is a strong group of really good instructors here that aren't closed minded. The problem is that I see people being trained by a number of people I don't think should be training at all almost every time I'm in cave country.
I get what you're saying for sure. It's just hard to express fully without making it sound like you're saying all Florida instructors suck compared to those in Mexico. There's just some things in the instruction community down there that would be nice to see more of here.
I agree Rddvet. I did a few dives with a new cave diver in North Florida a few weeks ago. This is someone who has less than 100 dives total and took a class from HP. I honestly wasn't expecting much but I was honestly impressed and would say this intro diver with just a few dives looked better than many full cave divers.
A big issue I have seen over and over again is the cave divers ability to negotiate high flow, and to a lesser extent dealing with the decompression requirements in caves that are 90-100 feet deep.
I suppose those of us Florida cave instructors would be inferior while teaching someone to dive in no flow at 30 feet deep.
Allowing divers to use gloves in north Florida caves should not be a big deal. I always told divers that they may need to remove their gloves while following a #24 line in zero/limited visibility.
One thing I frequently will see on the forums is that someone will ask about a light to purchase or dry suit recommendations. People will respond with buy the one they own because it is the best,but ultimately they don't have a good basis of comparison, because they maybe have only used/owned one or two. Hence, I can't provide a qualification of one instructor better than another, or instructors from one country better than another because my data set is too small. There maybe someone out there that has gotten instruction from a large number of instructors, from different regions, and can provide the definitive comparison/contrast. My basic judgement is how instructors are made. To me the instructor that has had a lot of experience with a large pool of instructors involved in their training because it is required by the agency, would be a good basis, versus minimal exposure-maybe I am wrong here.
Flow masks crappy trim and buoyancy issues so it's fantastic for those who are unskilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Learning where to pull and how to shield from the flow (or how to use it on the way out) is something people figure out during their first couple of dives. It's nothing that requires special skills or training.
As to the depth and penetration, obviously proper gas management becomes even more important in shallow caves with longer penetration.
Also I see nothing special about Florida deco. Compared to cold water deco it is not even in the same league.
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Yes, perhaps. However in North Florida we are also able and do train cave divers in no flow such as Peacock where those issues are dealt with. There are also places in high flow caves where there is no flow so a cave diver student has to deal with both high & no flow during the same dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Come deco with me, big boy. I?ll show you something special.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
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Let's just meet in the middle and say the Euro instructors who just come over to the US for a short 'business trip' and teach in caves they hardly know are the crappiest. How are they getting their work visas for stuff like that anyways? :grin:
That's no problem. Local florida cave instructors just get pissed and call the government on them and get them banned from teaching in the US since they're stealing all of their clientsQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
I think they just do that to the CanadiansQuote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
You do depth and long penetrations so the difficulty multiplies exponentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
That's another league of it's own.
Jim Wyatt was talking about typical Florida caves like Ginnie.
And a dive in Ginnie with 85s and a stage is much less involved than using the same gas in a 15' deep cave in Mexico where thirds can take you 3 hours into the cave instead of maybe an hour and fifteen minutes or so at Ginnie. Especially since you actually will need to swim back 3 hours in Mexico with no flow helping. Never mind the 200 killer T's in Mexico vs. no gold line T's at Ginnie.
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Hey, Canada sent us Alex Trebeck and and Justin Bieber. Someone has to get even for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
this thread is just ridiculous, people essentially saying there is some sort of conspiracy between GSO and instructors to make money. Bashing FL instructors, and to top it all off...bashing by name. Wow, people! First its not the job of an instructor to make someone a "good diver", whatever that means? There are about a million different definitions of that, are you a good diver if you can do a 1 hr swim dive in a shallow cave and not be all jacked up? or do you have to push the EOL in deep caves and do 18 hour dives? Each person is given a licence to learn, assuming they complete the required skills and the instructor judges that this person is safe to do these types of dives, at each level and must take it upon themselves to put in the work and time underwater to become a proficient diver at their level. No one is just born a great diver. How about everyone just relax and maybe if you do see someone who is all jacked up and your so concerned: educate them, dive with them, and teach them. And as far as GSO outdoors is concerned as is the topic of the initial thread, maybe just maybe they want to enforce the rules and make sure people dive with in their limits? just a thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
It's OK. I don't think Trebeck or the Beibs read CDFQuote:
Originally Posted by jdobbertien
You?ve obviously never experienced deco at Ginnie in the Eye on a busy holiday weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
You?ll need to be able to negotiate no fewer than 17 primary lines, run from 51 directions, while sharing space with 32 divers all wrapped in tanks, stages, scooters and deco bottles, AND be able to hold your stops while laughing and giggling at the antics of the open water course taking place just inches outside the cavern where the instructor is conducting CESA exercises without the aid of a descent line and desperately hoping that none of the free divers get stuck or blocked off from their exit and wondering how the newly minted OW divers managed to sneak their hand held flashlights and selfie sticks past the springs patrol.
Deco at Ginnie is no easy task my friend.
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I don't really disagree with what you're saying but I do think the divers setup in the video looks very sloppy. I think it's fair to point that out since the video was posted on youtube for the public to watch. If you post a video of yourself or your buddy with all kinds of stuff dangling about... I mean, what do you expect?Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbertien
FYI: I have no clue who the guy in the video is or who his instructor is but if I was his instructor I might give him a call and give him some pointers on how to fix his gear as it's not exactly good advertisement.
Lmao! It's been a rough few days, I needed that laugh :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
Ah, let the thread go on ridiculously a few more pages, so Draker will start posting cave porn photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbertien
Can we all just agree that good diver skill and ability to consistent make sound judgements is really the key? And as a private property, Ginnie can pretty much do anything they want - get over it. Lastly, while trim and many other issues present real challenges, I personally have had more serious issues dealing with restrictions posed by thicker, cumbersome exposure gear on technical Great Lakes dives. Laugh if you will, but simply clipping/unclipping bolt snaps, storing hoses cleanly after use and accessing SMB's efficiently with 4 or more tanks in the way while wearing dry gloves have created more problems for me on a regular basis.
Amen to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyver
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Did somebody say photos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyver
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...20ab2f04c2.jpg
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Finally!