Whether you follow what these guys are doing or not, it will be of interest to the cave diving community to see if a new record is set next weekend.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/14549973.htm
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Whether you follow what these guys are doing or not, it will be of interest to the cave diving community to see if a new record is set next weekend.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/14549973.htm
The potential to set a world record is by anyone allowed and willing to compete. Are we all allowed to compete at this site? If not, it is a club/organizational record.
It will be a great accomplishment no doubt, but as outlaw stated, it will not be a true world record since the site is restricted. Then again, if the site was not restricted the old record might not still be waiting to be broken.
Hey Guys, Cathedral has just as much potential to go as Wakulla and isn't as deep. The guys are out around 12,000 there and still going. There are wide open sites that the record can be done/beaten in. What those guys are doing up there is fantastic and whether it is a "closed site" or not it's still a great effort and a monumental task. They have my respect for what they are doing. It will be a record in my book where ever it's done. I would like to see the day we can all respect each other our accomplishments. Believe me what they do up there makes all cave divers look good in the eyes of the DEP of Florida. This is one time I think that wishing them good luck and fair weather would be the best for our sport. Be good now and dive safe, Cindy :)
Well said Cindy and Thank You.
Bill
I deffinetly respect what they are doing as there are not many people equiped and skilled enough to do what they are doing. However I must agree that its kinda hard to consider it such a world record when they are diving in a place where they are the only ones allowed in there. I'm not trying to rehash an argument about who should be allowed where. But its kinda sad to hear alot of stories about amasing caves and places that need exploration but are off limits to the diving community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
I'd like to dive there also but I am unwilling to play by their rules. That's my choice, not theirs. Anyone reading this post could be up there if they have the money, talent, time and inclination. In that sense it's not a closed cave. I think that time will tell that all the teams that work with the DEP do more for getting caves open than most can see at this point. The information and science that is provided is very valuable to the DEP and they are beginning to actually want cave divers. Wakulla is just closed to people like me who are too darn stubborn to deal with the bs invovled in a team like that. Are they hurting me or am I hurting myself..... Frankly I would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. ;) But that's just me.
Competition is a good thing for all of us, while envy usually only hurts the person who feels it. Cindy :D
Really?
Then perhaps you can explain why the organizers of the petition to open Cheryl/Emerald are being stonewalled - although the money is there, the plans have been approved, the material is available and so are the swinging...... uh..... hammers ready and willing.
Hmmmm.. another FOIA is in order me thinks, along with, just perhaps, some letters aimed at a formal investigation by the machinery of the State as to exactly how a private organization gets to be endowed with "most favored" status - to the extent that others, who have approved access, can't even manage to get a return email.
If you recall the LAST FOIA sussed out that the original petition sat on a desk for nearly a full year without a reply, despite multiple inquiries.
Suddenly, one little FOIA and it was all shook out.
Me thinks more shaking needs to be done, and this time, I have no intention of stopping with just an FOIA. That I did the last time in deference to those who claimed that it would be "disruptive" to go further.
Not gonna be done that way this time around.....
What happened to George Irvine? Is he still cave diving?
I have read and re-read Sheck's book ... "Maybe it just goes on forever" (Cathedral) ... Anyone thought (or better yet planned) a exploration dive in this system????Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Those guys are pussies, I would do it with 2 scooters, made by my man from Downunder. and 2 megs. and I will do it all on a sneek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowvoltguy
he moved on-
Todd Leonard and Bjorn (sorry can't remember the last name) added 6200 feet to the end of Shecks line last year. It's still going and is right now 17,119 feet from the opening at Cathedral. There was an article in UWS about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lowvoltguy
They are trying to map Cathedral cave so data can be taken to the state to show how spray fields from Dairy Farms are affecting the water in that cave system and eventually the Suwannee River. Todd Leornard and Mark Messersmith have also been very helpful with data and survey with the protection effort going on at Alachua/Mill Creek sink. They show up and work hard. Why, because they love caves, want to see them protected and enjoy cave diving. All poilitics and posturing aside, isn't that what it's all supposed to be about? Cindy Butler
In what manner does the attempt to set a world record constitute "scientific research" justifying sole and exclusive use and possession of a State Park resource supported by tax dollars?
Johnny Richards
I believe that they are trying to connect to another cave system to try and show a physical connection to the human waste spray fields around Tally. They have dye test data and need actual survey to drive the point home. I think the "world record" deal is something someone drummed up on their own, it wasn't written by anyone I know. I don't know JJ or Casey so I can't tell you what their motivations are. I know that team has been heavy into trying to get something done on the environmental protection of underwater caves in that area. That they are selling or promoting their "Team" or their equipment to get that done, I can accept that.
What motivation did Sheck have for his world record attempts or any other divers? Sometimes it becomes a part of what people are trying to accomplish and sometimes it is what they are trying to accomplish.
Personally I think at some point the state will have to sit down and realise that we cave divers have as much right to use the parks as boaters, climbers, etc. Cave Divers have such a bad rap from the past to overcome here that it is going to be a long haul. The DEP in general needs a lot of education on what cave diving is as a sport. Right now all they are interested in is the science and work they can get in partnership with cave divers. That is why they issue pemits to dive the parks.
Like I said, any diver can get on any of the DEP permitted teams or for that matter start their own team and pull a park permit. They will have to work and give the state something in return for the privaledge to dive in the parks. It's not a free ride for anybody. You are building the steps and offering to monitor an area for diving. That will be your ticket in, it may take a while but you will get it done. Get your group together and take your issues, education, motivations and suggestions to the head people. Sit down with them and see if you can't work something out. Fighting with me on the web doesn't get Jack done. I am not a GUE team member. I just think that people who accomplish something that makes us all look good should be wished well. Cindy :)
How are they being stonewalled? I thought this was a diveable site already with access rules in place. I remember reading one of Johnny Richards posts here a few months ago detailing the procedures being set up to gain access to Cheryl/Emerald - Did all that work go down the drain? That would be too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
Also, I don't want to start a negative thread here, but I'm very curious. What exactly do those guys do that makes them so special in the eyes of the state? The only excuse I've heard is that they are "research divers." Do they carry out REAL scientific research or studies that warrants such exclusivity? Here's an excerpt from the RESEARCH section of the webite "From record setting cave dives to wreck dives that serve to enrich our cultural heritage" -- Forget about setting records, that's just macho chest thumping in my eyes, I'm sorry but even running dye traces and connecting sinks does not seem to be crucial scientific work that should CLOSE the site for everyone else. We all know the aquifer is getting dirty and that over building is to blame. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Seems to me the only beneficiaries are those making money from selling coffee mugs, hats and gear, (look what WE did, you can be an "explorer" TOO, if you buy this gear.")
There's only one solution: we need the Wakulla monster back for another misson.
http://www.andrebasso.com/lagoon4.jpg
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I thanks is in order to Barry Miller for financing their expedition by all the restitution he has to pay them. :twisted:
Ouch!! keep it above the belt- or :snipe: (lol)
To the other poster-
Why not them? is a better question. They have spent alot of time, and effort in this system. Would it be correct to bring some else in to acomplish the same feat. Why- They have the resources, the team work is already in place. Why interupt the machine when all it needs is some water. Have you ever dove with some of the these people? ever taken a class to see for yourself, how much work goes into the team?
With out the needed support, It wouldn't happen. The only other people that i can think of that would even come close to the amount of effort in this, and being sucessfull is the EKPP.
Look at it as whole, its not the individual that wins-for the reaching the goal. Its the team that got them there.
My 2cents- this was not directed at you John other than the first part. :-)
Decide what camp you are in. So when this all comes down you can declare your honor to the camp you are in. To the others, you can't ride the fence on this one. I don't care who these people THINK THEY are or what awesome cave diving courses they offer or equipment they have developed. Their exclusive access is plan wrong. I will say it to anyones face who dares to hear it. I guess it is obviouos the camp I am in.
Have some of you never wondered why some of the most accomplished cave divers in the world ARE NOT on this project? My hat goes off to the guys who started this effort in 1985.
Exclusive access to public resources for the purpose of personal aggrandizement is flat out wrong and should be criminal.
Effort, doing what? Accomplishing feats, what feats? My question still stands - what valuable research and/or contribution to the society are they performing that justifies their exclusive access to the site? If their "feats" and "efforts" are merely going on pleasure dives and collecting dye samples, that does not constitute a reason to ban every other tax paying citizen the right to enjoy the same system. Look, if real "research" is being done, I think it might make sense to ban lay people from having access. For example, Lechuguilla Cave in New Mexico is restricted to scientists only, who are constantly finding new formations and strange geologically dependant chemolithoautotrophic bacteria that have never been seen anywhere on the planet. The area holds so much promise as a test area for research into primitive bacteria (thriving in hostile environments) that scientists are convinced it holds answers to how life on Mars could have been possible. Because of this promise, to the extent that NASA itself has been involved, they want the site to remain pristine and as uncontaminated as possible. That, my friends is a REAL reason to close a place off to JOE BLOWS - like myself. Unless these guy in Wakulla are coming up with new theories, thesis or research - they are doing nothing but going on pleasure dives and they don't deserve the same exclusivity that scientists are getting at caves like Lechuguilla. I say, if they are allowed to go on PLEASURE DIVES - then why can't other highly qualified and technically advanced cave divers do the same? Not like I'm one of those individuals yet, but many of YOU should be able to dive there.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMitsu
Want to see real research being done in caves?
http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/111796/scientis.htm
http://www.i-pi.com/~diana/lech/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/caves/jewe_06.html#fea_top
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P...echuguilla.png
As far as people who have spent time in there, what about Bill Stone who originally explored the system in the early 80's? I'll bet he couldn't just go back in there any day of the week - and he was one of the originals.
My previous post was a question- not directed specifically to anybody. I don't argue via the internet- I'll do that in person.
My question stands. Why should my tax dollars finance the personal dives of the few? And yes, it may be time to address the bigger picture- why should we be limited to just Emerald? Why not Wakulla, Sally Ward and the rest of them?
Cooperation with the Park has resulted in lip service and little else. You can bet I will be talking to those higher in the chain of command.
Johnny Richards
Good point. your post is a very good cause for discussion. But i am unable to help any further than what i have tried to do. I havent been there, or done it. I was merely stating the amount of training and work amoung themselfs that had to have taken place before hand.
John when i go where your at, i go there to dive. Not to have a discussion about the wkpp. :-)
But im all ears afterwords- 8)
Im not in either camp i take what i can from instruction and if it works for me, i put it into my diving.
seems like their "record attempt" is a lot of chest thumping. whose record are they trying to break? other than their own.
didn't someone push 21,000 feet in a brazilian cave last year?
how is pushing past 19,000 in Wakulla going to set a record? other than to club that won't let anyone else attempt to break their record.
This kind of thing just makes me sad for cave diving. Somebody posts an interesting article. Someone (namely me) wishes the divers well. It turns into a brawl of put downs, threats (The I do my arguing in person,etc) chest thumping and bitching. I will be at the museum today. If you guys want to stop by and yell at me for wishing someone well please do so. I will of course at least expect a donation to the museum that is dedicated to preservation of the history of our sport. We record real accomplishments, have real gear that was used by real divers to accomplish great things and survive in a hostile environment. Maybe viewing this stuff will make you all realise that the sport is meant to be fun, we should be able to enjoy it and participate in it without all this bitterness. Cindy :cry:
The rest of us are not the ones with a 20+ year record of exclusionary practices and politics Cindy......
And in twenty years you haven't learned to join the effort, better it or get over it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
I have decided this conversation isn't real. I refuse to think this poorly of you men. Cindy
Cindy,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Where exactly is the cave diving museum? If I'm coming in from Fort White to High Springs on 27, where do I go?
Stacey
Hey Stacey, The museum is on the corner of highway 27 and 9th Ave. It's a large white building. When you turn the corner to the left on 9th you will see a big ugly tree painted on the side of the building. Park in the back and walk on in the back door. I'll be here till 6pm. Cindy :D
Yep, I should have known better than to try to make a point on the internet. Threats? How f-ing ridiculous is that? Back to ignoring these stupid forums and concentrating the effort where it counts.
Johnny
Why would someone join an effort they believe is corrupt? For their own personal gain I suppose - which just means that you put personal desire ahead of principle. So common these days - so simple - and so wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Museum
As for bettering it, what do you think that Johnny and countless others have been doing?
Get over it? What's wrong is wrong. It doesn't become less wrong over time - indeed, the longer a travesty continues the worse it is.
"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Blahdahblahahblahablah....blah.....
Enough already. Too bad someone just can't post something 'mildly' interesting or innocuous without starting this stuff up again.
Yeah.....I'm locking it. Back to your corners (what 5 or 6 of them) and start up something else...... :roll:
It's become a non-value added thread.