A controversial concept, but maybe a good one.

I know you guys are all thankful that I don't post much anymore. And I'll try to keep it that way. But a discussion with a cave instructor this morning led to a great idea we think he had. Of course, proposal of said idea would probably bring a bunch of criticism. I don't really care about criticism, so I said I'd post it.

What if cave society and prospective new cave divers had a list of instructors that not only had their length of cave instruction but also listed the number of graduated students who have died in cave diving. Say you've been teaching cave diving for less than 6 years but have already had 3+ students die while cave diving. Maybe it shows a trend in either poor instruction or an inability to weed out a poor state of mind in a diver.

Worst case, it allows people thinking about entering the sport to evaluate whether they want a guy known for student deaths to be their instructor.

Whatcha think?

too early for popcorn...hmmm...too fat for donuts...hmmm....this should be good. Just can't figure out the right snack.

Obviously that happens on a small scale as when we're asked who's a good instructor, we give our opinion based on some of those facts we know. Unfortunately a lot of crappy instructors or what I would say are "unsafe" instructors still get recommended by others. So I think your idea is a good one. Unfortunately, I think that in today's society there could be a legal issue as that could be seen as an unfair practice. Though it would be based in fact, I think there's still the precedent for legal concern.

How about instructors are required to have a certain amount of continuing education where they take courses or are "re-certified" by another instructor. Ideally not a croney or buddy, but that's hard to stop.

I have alot of respect for instructors who go take some basic classes like fundies eventhough they really have no need to.

I have wondered about this by agency vs the number of students certified. It seems to me that lately one agency is having a high percentage of deaths vs the number of certifications that are issued. Per the CDS bylaws they are supposed to maintain records for analysis of trends. It would be interesting to see and I think could be very valuable to the community. Sadly it will probably never happen.

Look, blaming the instructor for the bunny brained ideas of a student is stupid. An instructor sees a diver for the duration of their class, and has a set of standards that the student has to meet. Years later, the student may go bat crap crazy and ignore everything he was taught. Or have some testicular swelling that causes him to go far beyond his training and abilities. Or move to the frozen north and only cave dive every other year. That is not the fault of the instructor, or as important, the certifying agency.

And Krazi - the proper snack for this type of trolling is a banana.

I'll start. I started cave diving in 1997. Bill Rennaker was my instructor. I started teaching about 7 years ago. I have had zero students die (certing about 200 students, most still active)

I have yet to had a single student die or fail for that matter. Never mind that I’m not an instructor, I still have a perfect record.

i'm sure agencies and instructors will be all for this idea. i expect it to be implemented any day now

Many divers have had multiple instructors while progressing (cavern, intro, ANDP, full cavern, sidemount, CCR, DPV, trimix etc). Who gets the blame if the diver has a medical event or does something stupid that none taught or recommended?

If we want to evaluate an instructors judgment can we also discuss instructors that have been thrown out of certification agencies, instructors that have stolen things, instructors that are drug addicts, and instructors that associate with convicted pedophiles?

Or do we have to evaluate an instructor based solely on the actions of a former student days/weeks/months/years after that former student took a class?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Look, blaming the instructor for the bunny brained ideas of a student is stupid. An instructor sees a diver for the duration of their class, and has a set of standards that the student has to meet. Years later, the student may go bat crap crazy and ignore everything he was taught. Or have some testicular swelling that causes him to go far beyond his training and abilities. Or move to the frozen north and only cave dive every other year. That is not the fault of the instructor, or as important, the certifying agency.

And Krazi - the proper snack for this type of trolling is a banana.

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If this is true then the deaths should be evenly distributed then shouldn't they? Just like flipping a coin. Sure you will have streaks where you just get heads but over time it should even out on a percentage basis. I really don't think that this is what the data would show.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

If this is true then the deaths should be evenly distributed then shouldn't they? Just like flipping a coin. Sure you will have streaks where you just get heads but over time it should even out on a percentage basis. I really don't think that this is what the data would show.

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I had a student that took full trimix with me in 1997. He didn't pass the class initially, and he had to come back and take it again before he passed.

He died in 2011 or 2010 from complications due to DCS after a dive in a deep cave.

Is this my fault?

I do think there is an issue with students instructor shopping. I know of a few students who some instructors refused to take any further than ow sidemount or cavern so they went and found another instructor. Two of these are now dead.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I had a student that took full trimix with me in 1997. He didn't pass the class initially, and he had to come back and take it again before he passed.

He died in 2011 or 2010 from complications due to DCS after a dive in a deep cave.

Is this my fault?

---

I don't know but statistically it should even out over time if there isn't an issue with a certain agency or instructor. Sure the more complicated dives your students do the more deaths one will have. It is a hard thing to measure. I look at GUE and I would guess they train as many or more cave divers per year than say the CDS. Do you think their incident rate is the same? Are the CDS divers doing more extreme dives? I can't answer this and don't believe anyone else can either but I think the data should be analyzed.

Without any other knowledge about a student, an instructor can only evaluate what they see. A student that displayed an unsafe attitude in a course with one instructor may decide to follow all of the rules and act appropriately while enrolled in a course with a different instructor.

Here's an example:

Student jokes about playing tic-tac-toe by carving into the walls during a cavern course with Instructor A. Instructor A admonishes the student about conservation and tells the student he is not mature enough to continue training to become a cave diver.

Student shops around and finds Instructor B and enrolls in a cave course with B. During the course, student acts mature and reasonable and demonstrates the normal conventional maturity towards cave conservation. Instructor B certifies the student, and a week after the student uses his cave diving skills to go and harvest clay in a popular cave so that he can sell pottery made from cave clay.

Would Instructor B be considered responsible for this?

BTW, if anyone starts selling cave clay pottery because they think that's a brilliant idea after reading my above comment, I'd like a new coffee mug.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Without any other knowledge about a student, an instructor can only evaluate what they see. A student that displayed an unsafe attitude in a course with one instructor may decide to follow all of the rules and act appropriately while enrolled in a course with a different instructor.

Here's an example:

Student jokes about playing tic-tac-toe by carving into the walls during a cavern course with Instructor A. Instructor A admonishes the student about conservation and tells the student he is not mature enough to continue training to become a cave diver.

Student shops around and finds Instructor B and enrolls in a cave course with B. During the course, student acts mature and reasonable and demonstrates the normal conventional maturity towards cave conservation. Instructor B certifies the student, and a week after the student uses his cave diving skills to go and harvest clay in a popular cave so that he can sell pottery made from cave clay.

Would Instructor B be considered responsible for this?

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Well in one of the deaths instructor A contacted instructor B and said I had issues in ow with your student. I have heard that your student is regularly disregarding safe gas practices and that the student has even done this in a class. Instructor B agrees and says well I think I can change him and I am afraid he will just cave dive anyway. It is a slippery slope and I could make an argument for either side. Sadly I think it has more to do with $$$ for a lot of agencies and instructors. It is a conversation definitely worth having. Lets face it cave diving is a small sport / hobby. None of us have to do it. Like anything that is done for entertainment when money is tight people cut back on hobbies. The current model of cave training is ripe for abuse. Ethics sometimes take a backseat to money and from what I have witnessed in cave diving this happens way to often. You can certainly disagree with Peter's proposal but I think everyone agrees there are issues. What would you propose to help fix these issues?

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I know you guys are all thankful that I don't post much anymore. And I'll try to keep it that way. But a discussion with a cave instructor this morning led to a great idea we think he had. Of course, proposal of said idea would probably bring a bunch of criticism. I don't really care about criticism, so I said I'd post it.

What if cave society and prospective new cave divers had a list of instructors that not only had their length of cave instruction but also listed the number of graduated students who have died in cave diving. Say you've been teaching cave diving for less than 6 years but have already had 3+ students die while cave diving. Maybe it shows a trend in either poor instruction or an inability to weed out a poor state of mind in a diver.

Worst case, it allows people thinking about entering the sport to evaluate whether they want a guy known for student deaths to be their instructor.

Whatcha think?

---

I actually like the idea.

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Originally Posted by jerrwhy01

I have yet to had a single student die or fail for that matter. Never mind that I’m not an instructor, I still have a perfect record.

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My brother went to a university with no football team. He proudly wears his sweater AND t-shirt both proclaiming they've been undefeated in football since the university was founded.

So: Keep up the good work!

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Originally Posted by bamafan

If this is true then the deaths should be evenly distributed then shouldn't they? Just like flipping a coin. Sure you will have streaks where you just get heads but over time it should even out on a percentage basis. I really don't think that this is what the data would show.

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Deaths will only be distributed evenly over a group if there are enough deaths and enough time for them to even out. Flip a coin 1,000 times, and the heads and tails should be darn close to even. Flip a coin 3 times and you could easily get 3 heads and no tails. With the numbers we are talking about, a couple of deaths could be damning, even if both were caused by heart attacks.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I had a student that took full trimix with me in 1997. He didn't pass the class initially, and he had to come back and take it again before he passed.

He died in 2011 or 2010 from complications due to DCS after a dive in a deep cave.

Is this my fault?

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Yes. Every time I get a speeding ticket it is completely the fault of my driving education instructor

Banana with a little peanut butter...yum!

Personally I think it is an extremely stupid idea. There are too many variables involved. One could be a very bad diver and instructor and as such turns the student off to diving. Now that instuctor won?t have any dead former students as they no longer dive. On the other hand you could have a very active instructor who is solid in the water and a good mentor. This instructor will more than likely attract a more active student base as well. There is no way that a deaths vs years or students metric could work. The only benefit would be for the politically motivated type which has an inferiority complex.
For the record:
Years teaching- 27
Years teaching tech- 20
Years teaching rebreathers-12
Years teaching Cave- 10
Dead former students-1
It was a former cave student that died on a wreck in the northeast while solo. Not a week goes by that I don?t think about that and what I could have done or said to maybe prevent that.
I?ll take the Pepsi challenge any day with anyone as to my diving skill or instructional ability. Bring it on and film it while your at it. Talk is cheap.

Who gets the black mark on their training record for the death of Sheck Exley? How about David Shaw?

A year and a half ago I was on a team that lost a diver. He was a highly trained, highly skilled diver doing a dangerous exploration dive that I would not dream of doing. When he died, it was part of a sequence of cave diving deaths that caught my attention because the divers were doing such extreme dives. There were the Finnish divers who died in an extremely deep Norwegian cave. There was the diver who passed when his scooter imploded at a depth around 200 meters.

These were probably once outstanding beginning cave students taught by outstanding instructors. They went on to go far beyond what 99% of cave divers will ever do. They lived and dived on the very edge of what is possible in this activity. How would those deaths look any different on an instructor's record than the death of an unskilled diver doing something really stupid?

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

Who gets the black mark on their training record for the death of Sheck Exley? How about David Shaw?

A year and a half ago I was on a team that lost a diver. He was a highly trained, highly skilled diver doing a dangerous exploration dive that I would not dream of doing. When he died, it was part of a sequence of cave diving deaths that caught my attention because the divers were doing such extreme dives. There were the Finnish divers who died in an extremely deep Norwegian cave. There was the diver who passed when his scooter imploded at a depth around 200 meters.

These were probably once outstanding beginning cave students taught by outstanding instructors. They went on to go far beyond what 99% of cave divers will ever do. They lived and dived on the very edge of what is possible in this activity. How would those deaths look any different on an instructor's record than the death of an unskilled diver doing something really stupid?

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Do you think there is an issue with training? What would you propose? You certainly have to have some kind of measurement. I think by agency would probably be a little more useful statistically since the sample size would be bigger but them you get the issue of people with multiple agency certs.

On one hand, my full cave instructor was proud that none of his students had died in a cave (do to something other than a medical issue), and he also lamented that while at one time we could say that no trained cave diver had died in a cave, that is no longer the case.

Now, admittedly his zero death rate was in part due to some luck, but some portion of it was also probably due to his unwillingness to pass anyone who could not meet the standard, or who did not impress him as having the maturity to be cave diving.

Things do seem to have gotten worse and skill levels seem to be on the decline, due to poor training, lower expectations in the community as a whole, a decrease in cave diver discipline, or a combination of two or more of these elements.

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In an ideal world, we could have a data base that calculated the rates of fatalities by instructor. This could be used to generate a list of instructors who have fatality rates that are higher than the average by a statistically significant margin (more than one or two standard deviations above the mean).

In simple terms this would mean that instructors with large numbers of prior students could have more former students who died in a cave (due to non medically related reasons) than a newer or less active instructor with fewer total students trained and the two instructors could still have comparable rates. And it means we'd only be raising the red flag when a particular instructor has significantly more fatalities than can be accounted for by random chance at the 67% or 95% level.

However, it's just not practical because we do not live in an ideal world.

Such a data base would require all cave certification agencies to report past and present cave C cards and instructors to the data base - and that's just not going to happen. Ever.

That data base would then need to be cross matched with accident reports world wide that are detailed enough to list the cause as medical versus an error on the part of the deceased. We can't make that happen here in the US, let alone worldwide.

Even if both these things occurred, we'd have very few instructors on the list at the 67% confidence level and we'd probably have no instructors on the list at the 95% confidence level. Which means it would be pretty pointless. And, absent a sufficiently high confidence level, the list would just be arbitrary and again pointless.


But feel free to keep on beating this dead horse....

Crass.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

In an ideal world, we could have a data base that calculated the rates of fatalities by instructor. This could be used to generate a list of instructors who have fatality rates that are higher than the average by a statistically significant margin (more than one or two standard deviations above the mean).

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There are not enough fatalities to derive any sort of statistically significant results. A couple years ago there were no deaths whatsoever for the entire year. If I am not mistaken, about half of all cave fatalities involve uncertified people, so none of those would count. Then take out the ones caused by medical events, and you are down to a pretty small number. If anyone has a record of fatalities with enough total to be one or two standard deviations above the mean, that would be news indeed.

And then, are there others that should be excluded? How about what I mentioned earlier--the highly experienced and highly skilled diver attempting an incredibly challenging dive. Should a diver with 2,000 cave dives count against his cavern instructor's record?

Transparancy... very controversial.


Not too long ago somebody PASSED his instructor training course and is a cave instructor now even though a stundent died alone during the course in a place he shouldn't have been in the first place... but surely, why blame the instructor or the trainer or the agency.
A dude apparently died due to hypoxia on an breather while the instructor was right there... just to name a couple of examples.
I would never want anyone I know to take a course with these people.

So someboby remind me, why take training and have training standards to begin with when instructors have no responsibility and there are never any consequences?

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Originally Posted by farmerted

Personally I think it is an extremely stupid idea. There are too many variables involved. One could be a very bad diver and instructor and as such turns the student off to diving. Now that instuctor won?t have any dead former students as they no longer dive. On the other hand you could have a very active instructor who is solid in the water and a good mentor. This instructor will more than likely attract a more active student base as well. There is no way that a deaths vs years or students metric could work. The only benefit would be for the politically motivated type which has an inferiority complex.
For the record:
Years teaching- 27
Years teaching tech- 20
Years teaching rebreathers-12
Years teaching Cave- 10
Dead former students-1
It was a former cave student that died on a wreck in the northeast while solo. Not a week goes by that I don?t think about that and what I could have done or said to maybe prevent that.
I?ll take the Pepsi challenge any day with anyone as to my diving skill or instructional ability. Bring it on and film it while your at it. Talk is cheap.

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You have a good track record, so why would you say it's a stupid idea? People like you would benefit from more tranparancy. The legit instructors should be the once wanting to weed out the bozos, more than anyone.
Counting the accidents of stundents might not be the best way but more tranparency would help out the good instructors and the stundents.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Do you think there is an issue with training? What would you propose? You certainly have to have some kind of measurement. I think by agency would probably be a little more useful statistically since the sample size would be bigger but them you get the issue of people with multiple agency certs.

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Do I think there is an issue with training? I have no idea, and I wonder how others are gaining their insights. I remember my training, with one instructor, and I can to a very small degree compare that with a friend who was trained by someone else at the same time. I only have his descriptions for that comparison--I didn't actually see it.I had some more advanced training (overhead sidemount and overhead DPV) later on, but those experiences are the only training I have ever seen. I didn't see anyone else's training when I was first certified, and I have not seen anyone else's training since. How can I make a valid comparison?

Even if I were to watch another class now, can I really compare it to mine? Do I really know what I looked like when I was certified? Am I not more likely to compare the students to myself now than to what I was then?

If you go to a place like ScubaBoard, you will see almost every day someone talking about how bad ALL current instruction is compared to ALL instruction when he or she as certified. How can they know that? I was OW certified 20 years ago, and as an instructor I have seen hundreds of classes over the last 13 years, both my own and others sharing a training site with me. Every one of them was FAR better than the pathetic instruction I got two decades ago. Should I conclude from my that all instruction throughout the world now is better than all instruction decades ago? How can anyone with such limited experience draw any sort of a valid conclusion?

For reasons that I have mentioned in other posts, I simply don't see how you can draw conclusions from fatalities. There are too many reasons for them that have absolutely nothing to do with initial training.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I had a student that took full trimix with me in 1997. He didn't pass the class initially, and he had to come back and take it again before he passed.

He died in 2011 or 2010 from complications due to DCS after a dive in a deep cave.

Is this my fault?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Yes. Every time I get a speeding ticket it is completely the fault of my driving education instructor

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Of course not and nobody said that. You guys must know, better than I do, that there are some instructors who let very crappy divers pass and that there is a pattern. When I see someboby got trained by X I know he/she must be good couse otherwise they wouldn't have passed, with instrutor Y I know it's a mixed bag, they might be good or horrible. There is no way you guys don't know any X-type and Y-type instructors.

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Originally Posted by bent

Of course not and nobody said that. You guys must know, better than I do, that there are some instructors who let very crappy divers pass and that there is a pattern. When I see somebody got trained by X I know he/she must be good couse otherwise they wouldn't have passed, with instructor Y I know it's a mixed bag, they might be good or horrible. There is no way you guys don't know any X-type and Y-type instructors.

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When I as a school district administrator, I was assigned the task of becoming an expert on teacher evaluation so I could participate in a leadership role in redesigning our teacher evaluation system. I attended a national conference on teacher evaluation, and a presenter talked about this exact thing during a presentation on the different ways of determining which teachers were competent and which teachers weren't. A common attitude you hear in school districts is that everyone in a school knows who the good teachers are and who the bad teachers are, so why can't we find a simple way to measure and report it?

According to the presenter, studies have conclusively shown that the "everyone knows it" method is by far the LEAST accurate. Some of the teachers with the best reputations are among the worst, and vice versa. People develop reputations in a lot of ways, but if you actually go into the classroom and see them at work, if you look carefully at the results in student achievement, you may find out that those reputations do not hold up.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

BTW, if anyone starts selling cave clay pottery because they think that's a brilliant idea after reading my above comment, I'd like a new coffee mug.

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You got it.

As already mentioned a couple of times, the sample size is just way too small. There (luckily) aren't near enough cave diving deaths to get a meaningful distribution.

I have not said to go by any 'everybody knows system'.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

Some of the teachers with the best reputations are among the worst, and vice versa.

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I went to school too. There were good and bad teachers... and the bad once where not good (as your story suggests), they were incompetent and should have been fired... but teachers over here can't be fired as they are government employees. This has nothing to do with dive training or anything in this thread.

Being a good diver can be measured objectively for the most part. Having a stundent die and getting a new instructor rating the week after is an objective observation as well. Telling people that diving unknown circuits is objectively bad too.

Bringing up Sheck or 12 year olds learning math is a red herring.

There is point in making up examples and inaccurate comparisons when you can talk about the topic at hand.

Reminds me of a FB Conversation recently with a similar topic.


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Originally Posted by mgif99

As already mentioned a couple of times, the sample size is just way too small. There (luckily) aren't near enough cave diving deaths to get a meaningful distribution.

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That is true, but I would add another point..

We have far too little DATA on "near miss" type events. I can think of only a few brave souls who have been very generous in sharing a detailed account of their nearly fatal incident.

Honestly, I think there's a gold mine of accident analysis out there if more would share it. And this applies to both gear failures and human/training errors.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

BTW, if anyone starts selling cave clay pottery because they think that's a brilliant idea after reading my above comment, I'd like a new coffee mug.

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It is a brilliant idea..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

When I as a school district administrator, I was assigned the task of becoming an expert on teacher evaluation so I could participate in a leadership role in redesigning our teacher evaluation system. I attended a national conference on teacher evaluation, and a presenter talked about this exact thing during a presentation on the different ways of determining which teachers were competent and which teachers weren't. A common attitude you hear in school districts is that everyone in a school knows who the good teachers are and who the bad teachers are, so why can't we find a simple way to measure and report it?

According to the presenter, studies have conclusively shown that the "everyone knows it" method is by far the LEAST accurate. Some of the teachers with the best reputations are among the worst, and vice versa. People develop reputations in a lot of ways, but if you actually go into the classroom and see them at work, if you look carefully at the results in student achievement, you may find out that those reputations do not hold up.

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The part that caught my attention was "student achievement (results)". Seems to me that we don't even measure / report that beyond "you got the card". Most agencies recognize instructor achievement by how many certs they have issued.

I frequently dive with new OW divers to help introduce them to local diving and help them stay active. I've learned that if they were taught by certain instructors that the dive is going to be drama free.

My first tech instructor's final debrief ended with him telling me that he trusted me and that he would sleep soundly at night. I hope I can say the same every single time if I ever become an instructor.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I know you guys are all thankful that I don't post much anymore. And I'll try to keep it that way. But a discussion with a cave instructor this morning led to a great idea we think he had. Of course, proposal of said idea would probably bring a bunch of criticism. I don't really care about criticism, so I said I'd post it.

What if cave society and prospective new cave divers had a list of instructors that not only had their length of cave instruction but also listed the number of graduated students who have died in cave diving. Say you've been teaching cave diving for less than 6 years but have already had 3+ students die while cave diving. Maybe it shows a trend in either poor instruction or an inability to weed out a poor state of mind in a diver.

Worst case, it allows people thinking about entering the sport to evaluate whether they want a guy known for student deaths to be their instructor.

Whatcha think?

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Isn't that how we choose training directors already? 😎😋

That was a joke folks.. some of you can take a deep breath and stop thinking I was talking about you

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

When I as a school district administrator, I was assigned the task of becoming an expert on teacher evaluation so I could participate in a leadership role in redesigning our teacher evaluation system. I attended a national conference on teacher evaluation, and a presenter talked about this exact thing during a presentation on the different ways of determining which teachers were competent and which teachers weren't. A common attitude you hear in school districts is that everyone in a school knows who the good teachers are and who the bad teachers are, so why can't we find a simple way to measure and report it?

According to the presenter, studies have conclusively shown that the "everyone knows it" method is by far the LEAST accurate. Some of the teachers with the best reputations are among the worst, and vice versa. People develop reputations in a lot of ways, but if you actually go into the classroom and see them at work, if you look carefully at the results in student achievement, you may find out that those reputations do not hold up.

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Teachers are like any other bureaucracy now, there is more spin on student outcome that has very little to do with student outcome and everything to do with metrics that can be presented.
Yet we have universities across the USA teaching basic skills to folks with high school diplomas from schools that have lots of metrics to justify teacher and staff raises.

Everyone knows the true measure of a cave diving instructor is how many DPV Jousting tournaments they have won ;)


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Muffler bearings are the future

If this thread runs to 11 pages I?m deleting my account.


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Originally Posted by tflaris

If this thread runs to 11 pages I?m deleting my account.


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Again?

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Originally Posted by kensuf

BTW, if anyone starts selling cave clay pottery because they think that's a brilliant idea after reading my above comment, I'd like a new coffee mug.

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8 oz or 12

The banana didn't last very long but the jar of peanut butter lasted all day. Got that stuff all over my iPad and the keyboard at work.


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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Again?

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Yes. Again.


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Why is dying while cave diving viewed so negatively? I always knew that I stood a good chance of dying when I was pushing the envelope. My instructor massively reduced that probability by being a damn good instructor... and if I had died, it would have entirely been my fault.

And If I had died 500 dives in, he should have been proud for giving me the skills to survive that long.

So... if the initial post were to be taken seriously, some control would have to be introduced for how many dives that instructor’s students did subsequently,and how complex their dives were.

Good luck doing that without some serious actuarial training. Superlyte, perhaps your record is so “good” exactly because of your self selected nickname... you only train superlyte divers who barely venture past the lips in Ginnie.

Yeah, that must be it.

Say what you want, but when an instructor has multiple students dead in 2 years time, either the instructor sucks at teaching or the instructor sucks at weeding out poor behavior/mentalities.

Self congratulatory leadership... my least favorite sort.

Caveat emptor on this guy.

Lol. You're awesome. I'm out. Enjoy the thread.

This can't possibly be the real Superlyte! Aliens must have abducted him and switched him out with a kinder, more gentle model. :-) No yelling or cursing! Lol! Love ya Pete!

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

i'm sure agencies and instructors will be all for this idea. i expect it to be implemented any day now

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:rollguy

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

I actually like the idea.

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Even if one would like the idea, it seems hard to envision any way this should work in reality..
Who would even keep that list? the instructor having a long list of fatalities? certainly not..
The agency with instructors having a long list of fatalities?
Aren't they interested in having the instructors paying their fees for active teaching status? and how would making such list available affect on such instructors willingness to pay dues to such agency?
The agency that such instructor crosses over?
Does he start at such new agency with a clean slate?


That would only work if ALL agencies would act that way and stay true to such system.. anybody seeing that happen??




This is a good point about skills and impact and significance of such system:

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Originally Posted by bamafan

I look at GUE and I would guess they train as many or more cave divers per year than say the CDS. Do you think their incident rate is the same?

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I state that likely nobody disagrees with the fact that GUE has extremely high standards and therefore the skills and output of GUE certified divers is very high..
Also likely nobody would disagree that the GUE protocols rather err on the conservative side of commonly accepted practices of safe cave diving, right?
Yet they do have fatalities and such fatalities mostly turn out to be the result of human error despite such safe protocols..


What would be the significance of such a fatality on anybodies "track list" ??


In short certainly such system would first not be practical in any way, secondly have no significance towards the quality nor the safety standard of the trainer in question !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Also likely nobody would disagree that the GUE protocols rather err on the conservative side of commonly accepted practices of safe cave diving, right?

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I don’t know if I’d call it more conservative or just more thorough, better thought out, and the teachings being more consistent compared to what I’m seeing from other agencies. In my mind what gue teaches isn’t so much “conservatively as it’s just good ideas.

I’m aware of only 1 GUE Cave fatality, and that was from an improper gas switch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I don’t know if I’d call it more conservative or just more thorough, better thought out, and the teachings being more consistent compared to what I’m seeing from other agencies. In my mind what gue teaches isn’t so much “conservatively as it’s just good ideas.

I’m aware of only 1 GUE Cave fatality, and that was from an improper gas switch.

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since when did GUE Cave 1 even include gas switches?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Why is dying while cave diving viewed so negatively?.

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Nobody gives a crap that you die in a cave. They ONLY care that you dying in a cave may cause the cave to get closed. It isn't about dive safety, the family/friends, the recovery team (in fact look at the popularity of ICURR workshops, it's what the cool kids do, they can't wait to prove their chops) or any of that.

It's about them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cerich

since when did GUE Cave 1 even include gas switches?

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It doesn’t.

1 GUE Cave fatality. Not a GUE Cave 1 fatality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

It doesn’t.

1 GUE Cave fatality. Not a GUE Cave 1 fatality.

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thanks, that 1 danced around

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cerich

Nobody gives a crap that you die in a cave. They ONLY care that you dying in a cave may cause the cave to get closed. It isn't about dive safety, the family/friends, the recovery team (in fact look at the popularity of ICURR workshops, it's what the cool kids do, they can't wait to prove their chops) or any of that.

It's about them.

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Actually, for me. It's none of that. I take death pretty bad. Not sure why. Call me a big baby, but death sucks. Death that could easily be avoided really bothers me. Even people I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Say what you want, but when an instructor has multiple students dead in 2 years time, either the instructor sucks at teaching or the instructor sucks at weeding out poor behavior/mentalities.

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This is not a binary choice. You can have 2 well trained divers make 2 independent and separate errors. Or 1 mistake and a medical issue. Or 2 medical issues. Or a group error that leads to multiple deaths.

Look, there is a core group of people on the forum, and you know who you are, that have a personal agenda to prove that certain instructors and agencies are inferior to others. The problem is that all you have is bias, you have no meaningful data. You have biased observations, pre determined conclusions, hearsay, occasionally videos of someone having a bad day, and real arsehole attitudes. And this just grinds along over and over and over. Every accident this is dredged up from the bowels of your prejudices and spewed all over the place.

Get over it. As much as you hate it, training agencies exist and compete, standards are written, instructors evaluated, students taught, and the machine rolls along just as it has for 40 years.

If you want an agency to do better, get involved. Spend your time, effort and money trying to improve standards and instructor evaluations.

And Superlyte, you should take it personally. I do also, however, after 43 years of seeing friends make mistakes I have learned that it is errors compounding themselves leading to panic that is most often the cause, not poor instruction. One of my close friends died in Peacock years ago, before arrows, because he was solo and jumped onto a different line without noticing it. Berman and Tillman did something to blow their gas plan. The GUE guy picked up the wrong tank. The 2 guys in EN had something so onerous happen that they chose to leave gas, a rebreather, and a scooter behind them and bolt for the door. You cannot blane their instructors.

And Andrew, I am pleased to see you still lurking around, come see me.

I think a more effective problem to solve is instructor shopping by failed students. There should be some sort of way of identifying those that move around trying to get certs they shouldnt have. That doesnt mean not giving people a chance. There should just be a way of identifying those people so there can be clear instructor to instructor dialogue about why the student failed. Obviously it cant be assumed a failed student is a bad student, but there are those that are failed due to dangerous mentality and the new instructor should be made aware.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I?m aware of only 1 GUE Cave fatality, and that was from an improper gas switch.

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That is the one I was mainly referring to, I thought I had heard of one more.. But quite irrelevant to the point..
Point was even with good safe protocols and doubtlessly high quality training people do die in caves. All are human after all and stuff happens.
What could be drawn from such fatality towards the quality of the training or trainer getting a "black mark"?? --> nothing or an unjust view at most..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

That is the one I was mainly referring to, I thought I had heard of one more.. But quite irrelevant to the point..
Point was even with good safe protocols and doubtlessly high quality training people do die in caves. All are human after all and stuff happens.
What could be drawn from such fatality towards the quality of the training or trainer getting a "black mark"?? --> nothing or an unjust view at most..

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Yeah I totally agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

What could be drawn from such fatality towards the quality of the training or trainer getting a "black mark"?? --> nothing or an unjust view at most..

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Please look into GUE's quality management and the way they ensure that the standards are enforced.
No student gets a card without interacting with HQ/QM and providing feedback for the class.

On the other hand I've heard from non-GUE students who have never done a lights out OOA exits in their cave class.
How is it possible that something like this can happen systematically without the agency's QM catching it?

Also when someone dies in a cave, don't you think the agency should do it's homework and take a close look at the situation and try to understand what happened?
Any fatality should trigger an automated process within the corresponding agency to eliminate any possible wrongdoing by their instructor.

I am not GUE trained and don't even hardly dive bm. I think the industry could definitely learn a lot from their success rate. They don't seem to have issues with their divers taking ow divers in the overhead or having divers who regularly bust 1/3rds especially in classes. They can also pull certs from divers and have quality control after classes. They are apparently doing something better than most agencies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

On the other hand I've heard from non-GUE students who have never done a lights out OOA exits in their cave class.
How is it possible that something like this can happen systematically without the agency's QM catching it?

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Oliver, you keep flogging this, and I admit that I have not read everyones training standards, however, let me ask you this. In order to share air that implies a dive team of at least 2. Lights out implies that you have 6 light failures during the dive, and with helmet lights, probably more. Lights are so far superior than what we had years ago, but even so, I have never seen or heard of this.

Isn't this akin to having 3 regulator failures and having to buddy breathe to get out? Are there more realistic skills, such as lost line recoveries that should warrant more attention? What about a wing failure in a group of 2, I have had that happen 2400 feet in a cave, swimming in a wet suit. I understand confidence building, however, why are you so focused on such a low probability event?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

The GUE guy picked up the wrong tank. The 2 guys in EN had something so onerous happen that they chose to leave gas, a rebreather, and a scooter behind them and bolt for the door. You cannot blane their instructors.

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Their instructors you can't blame but what's with the cases where the stundents died during the course or right after while they were in the water with their instructor? There where 3 of thoses cases with Euopean instructors just recently.
Stuff like that was probably always going on but it was easier to sweep it under the rug before people had the internet. Just because it's been like that for 40 years doesn't mean it's good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

If you want an agency to do better, get involved. Spend your time, effort and money trying to improve standards and instructor evaluations.

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And how would I go about that? Should I buy a IA*** instructor rating, pay them a membership fee and then ask them to change their business model? Getting involved in a non-Profit is one thing, getting 'involved' in a business is another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bent

And how would I go about that? Should I buy a IA*** instructor rating, pay them a membership fee and then ask them to change their business model? Getting involved in a non-Profit is one thing, getting 'involved' in a business is another.

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Well, you have been pissing and moaning about IANTD for years, how has that been working out for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

In order to share air that implies a dive team of at least 2. Lights out implies that you have 6 light failures during the dive, and with helmet lights, probably more.

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It isn't just light failure in "lights out", that covers zero viz like in silt-out. And that is more likely to happen in teams vs solo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Oliver, you keep flogging this, and I admit that I have not read everyones training standards, however, let me ask you this. In order to share air that implies a dive team of at least 2. Lights out implies that you have 6 light failures during the dive, and with helmet lights, probably more. Lights are so far superior than what we had years ago, but even so, I have never seen or heard of this.

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It simulates sharing air in a zero vis situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Oliver, you keep flogging this, and I admit that I have not read everyones training standards, however, let me ask you this. In order to share air that implies a dive team of at least 2. Lights out implies that you have 6 light failures during the dive, and with helmet lights, probably more. Lights are so far superior than what we had years ago, but even so, I have never seen or heard of this.

Isn't this akin to having 3 regulator failures and having to buddy breathe to get out? Are there more realistic skills, such as lost line recoveries that should warrant more attention? What about a wing failure in a group of 2, I have had that happen 2400 feet in a cave, swimming in a wet suit. I understand confidence building, however, why are you so focused on such a low probability event?

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You don't do a lights out skill to train in the unlikely event of 6 light failures. You teach a lights out drill to train in the likely event of a total silt out. What's the chain of events? Diver goes oog, in the course of that chaos, either he or his buddy zeroes vis trying to get gas to the diver oog. We're not training lights out because we think you're going to have 6 lights go.

Well that makes perfect sense. Sorry, I had not thought of it that way. I am so used to having crap for visibility south of Tally.

Thanks guys, I had forgotten this. I kinda remember doing this in my class but the instructor had us cover our masks with a piece of a black trash bag held on with a rubber band so it could be removed quickly if anyone freaked.

And Oliver, as I said, I have not looked through standards in a long time, and no, I am not suggesting that anyone not meet standards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I understand confidence building, however, why are you so focused on such a low probability event?

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It's about dealing with low to no viz and staying calm, trimmed out and able to make a good exit when it happens in real life.
I've not made the standards but they are there for a reason. It's not up to the instructor to leave stuff out just because he, you or I think a drill may not be relevant.
His agency does or should care and the instructor is not only robbing the student of the experience, he is possibly endangering him.

About a month after our cave class my buddy got into a tight sidemount tunnel, in backmount, due to bad judgement. He got stuck and the vis turned to zero.
He told me afterwards that he thought his instructor had turned off the light, until of course he realized he was on his own. He was scared as hell but remembered how he did it in training and was able to resolve it.
It took him 12 minutes to back out of that passage which for a beginner is a long time in such a stressful situation. Having done the OOA lights out drill eight times in total during our class, seemed to have helped him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

And Andrew, I am pleased to see you still lurking around, come see me.

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One day, John, one day! Every time I think this job gets easier it gets harder instead. I got some dives in on a trip to Cancun with my wife and her family. Conning them to go to Tallahassee is a bit harder though!

You guys are taking this too seriously. I think Pete was just trolling us with a dumb idea. He's prolly sitting back eating turkey and laughing at everyone who thought this was even remotely serious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jj1987

You guys are taking this too seriously. I think Pete was just trolling us with a dumb idea. He's prolly sitting back eating turkey and laughing at everyone who thought this was even remotely serious.

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Well played. Thanks for the laughs Pete. :)

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Just two more pages till Tony cancels his account, Gentlemen it's time to step up. Andrew, it's good to see you back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Just two more pages till Tony cancels his account, Gentlemen it's time to step up. Andrew, it's good to see you back.

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LMAO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This concept is silly, just like having this conversation without naming names and talking about details.
For instance, you're known to be somewhat emotionally volatile, to the point where you have done some pretty crazy things.
I don't trust you or particularly want to interact, folk that behave like you do are usually best to avoid imo.

Are you saying that we should be critical of a specific local instructor because he certified some folks that have died?
Because that's exactly how I take your post, if I'm wrong, and I have been divorced so I am totally fine with being wrong, please correct.

Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.
Patting yourself on the back because you don't have a death shows nothing except your penchant for misguided correlations in life.

Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdax

This concept is silly, just like having this conversation without naming names and talking about details.
For instance, you're known to be somewhat emotionally volatile, to the point where you have done some pretty crazy things.
I don't trust you or particularly want to interact, folk that behave like you do are usually best to avoid imo.

Are you saying that we should be critical of a specific local instructor because he certified some folks that have died?
Because that's exactly how I take your post, if I'm wrong, and I have been divorced so I am totally fine with being wrong, please correct.

Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.
Patting yourself on the back because you don't have a death shows nothing except your penchant for misguided correlations in life.

Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.

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Exactly right! Forgive the following crass statement but I think it makes the point perfectly,,,

Statistics say 9 out of 10 people enjoy a gang rape. Obviously there is much more to something and judging an instructor by a fatality is as flawed as the above statement. A fatality should be investigated and analysed individually and on a case to case basis. I am by no means experienced at all but all the old hands frequently say it?s often a chain of event.

There are many more effective metrics to measure instructors and apply quality assurance through agency involvement. That?s where it should be done. Not on a statistic that is removed from the causality.

My 1 cent worth,,


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdax

Instructors can filter based on some behavior, maybe you'll catch some goofs, but most are on their best behavior during class and then do as they will after.
It's just a fact, you aren't changing anyone during cave class nor are you particularly adept at psychological evaluation and behavior correction.
If the skills were taught correctly, then it's the person and their choices, every single time.
Personal responsibility is the answer. Not your spreadsheet.

---

One of my apprentice/full cave students showed great maturity in class and even went so far as to tell me the emphasis on team and the leadership he learned in cave class helped him be a better husband and father. Then, he decided to do a solo scooter to the Henkel within a few dives after completing full cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

One of my apprentice/full cave students showed great maturity in class and even went so far as to tell me the emphasis on team and the leadership he learned in cave class helped him be a better husband and father. Then, he decided to do a solo scooter to the Henkel within a few dives after completing full cave.

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Did he have enough sense to properly gas plan and I am guessing he wasn't known for busting 1/3rds in your class as well as with other divers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdax

This concept is silly,

Cave diving is a big boy adult activity, instructors teach a skill and that's it, looking to them to mentor and guide adults after class is ridiculous.
I know as instructors you feel some deeper connection, maybe feel responsible for some events, but if you didn't teach something totally incorrectly just get over yourself.
You are just teaching a skill, like driving, you aren't becoming someones parent.

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So, I'll sacrifice myself here on behalf of the newbies. I'm not exactly certain what constitutes a "big boy, adult activity". For myself, I have definitely needed some guidance, assistance, mentorship in most if not all of the major adult undertakings in my life and I am incredibly appreciative to those who have taken the time to share their experience and wisdom with me. When I was younger it was often in hindsight that I realized what these mentors had done for me (oftentimes I simply learned that they were incredibly patient with me). Today, I actively seek out the guidance of those with greater experience and evidence of greater success than myself in a number of arenas including love, work, life, etc.

Entering into the overhead environment may not seem like much to many but was a major decision for me. I did not have access to statistical analysis of instructor records and most likely would have questioned the analysis. I spoke with an old friend who is fairly well accomplished in the world of underwater exploration and went with his suggestion on who to seek training from. I suppose that might be the equivalent of a trust me dive taken to the exponential level but that was the decision making process. After making contact with the instructor, I found that he had significant experience in the overhead environment (that was really important to me, someone who has done this themselves and survived multiple thousand times) and he could hear my goals for the training and propose a number of routes to successfully meeting those goals. So far, this seems to be working. No offense meant to my instructor but I would not be able to do this without the mentorship of some of the more experienced members of this community. There simply is not enough time in a weekend long course for me to become as proficient as I would like to be in most of the skills that I have been learning.

I am extremely grateful to the members of this community who have reached out a hand to me and joined me on dives, worked skills with me, given me advice in the water, etc. which has largely been the result of this forum. This is the stuff by the way, the repeated practice of skills with immediate feedback from more experienced divers (learning experiences) that seems to truly incorporate those skills as part my own personal dive regimen rather than the conclusion of an exercise.

Ultimately, I am my own responsibility. I get that. I am not my instructor's responsibility once he has signed off on my training. For the moment, my goal is to avoid becoming anyone's liability on a dive team.

I think I've rambled off into something other than the topic. My apologies.

As a new face on the scene, here is what I would prefer over a database of instructor/student deaths.

1. Increase the length of the training: Land skills and In water skills. If it cost more, fine, it would be worth it. Spread it out over three days or two weekends.

2. Set a minimum number of dives at each level to move on in the training and consider if that number needs to increase. So far, being in the water, in the overhead seems to be the only way for me personally to gain familiarity and comfortability in the environment. This should not keep anyone from advancing quickly and seems to be much more in line with the whole idea of progressing slowly into the environment.

I realize I have just signed my own warrant for public persecution in sharing my opinion.

To those of you who have taken the time to help mentor me in this process, I cannot thank you enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Did he have enough sense to properly gas plan and I am guessing he wasn't known for busting 1/3rds in your class as well as with other divers?

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True. When his class of 3 students surfaced in Olsen with one diver 100 psi beyond his thirds, said student was team leader. He chose to do the "walk of shame" even though I tried to con them into the idea that they had enough gas to swim to P1.

What about something as simple as a "technical Referral", or database for students that have failed and go instructor shopping? Obviously if the student has the cert, the completed they class, but what if they didn't complete the class, and went to a different instructor.. The main issue that I have personally seen (and I have been only cave diving for a little over a year), is students that fail a set of standards and then go instructor shopping because heaven forbid they just simply suck at a frog kick, or like mentioned before have the wrong attitude. Start at the beginning of technical classes, such as ANDP, if the student passes, great.. if not state as to why, so the next instructor isn't under the impression that they are dealing with a fresh student. But then again this relies heavily on both student consent, and instructor participation... I surmise that in all likelihood the system would be defective based on piss poor instructors either hyping students abilities, flat out lying, or just not participating.

Realistically, its a huge task for someone to create this, let alone get the Technical Certifying agencies all on the same page with common access, but it could be done. I think sharing this information, is more realistic than say a spreadsheet with ratio of certified vs deaths per Instructor. To make the spreadsheet accurate, you would have to specifically target deaths associated with poor training, and unless its observed in a class, there is no way to tie it to the instructor... and if there is poor training during class, that should be reported to the certifying agency quickly.. but a student may not always know the standards.. so down the rabbit hole (proverbial) we go.

I know that there have been fatalities during training, and IMO the training agency in some cases did the right thing, and in other cases not so much. Just my .02 from a newbie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

True. When his class of 3 students surfaced in Olsen with one diver 100 psi beyond his thirds, said student was team leader. He chose to do the "walk of shame" even though I tried to con them into the idea that they had enough gas to swim to P1.

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Well that is way better than what the deceased did from the numerous stories I was told previous to last weekend. It also seems from the Bear's ramblings that there is a weekness with gas planning and scooters. I wonder if they had the same scooter instructor?

I failed Algebra I in high school with one teacher and had to take the class over with another and got an "A." The first teacher wasn't good at teaching me. The second was awesome.

I've had several students come to me with problems that were easily fixable with our instructor-student dynamic. I've had others that I couldn't fix and suggested a different approach with another instructor. I know that instructor shopping often seems to lean in the direction of trying to find an "easier" instructor. But, sometimes the instructor - student dynamic isn't always conducive to learning. My very first cave instructor and I never even got into the water together. He wanted me to use a left side long hose and steel deco bottles. I thumbed class because I had taken GUE-F and GUE Tech 1 before I took cave training and was comfortable with my configuration. I found an NACD instructor who was fine with my set-up. Turned out he was one tough hombre and a great teacher. I've had many tech and cave instructors for various levels and he was one of the best of the bunch.

Some cave instructors with years of teaching can't perform skills well. I've seen videos where training directors and sponsors are pumping their knees or bicycling the modified flutter or shuffle kicks. It's more difficult for a student to learn to do a skill when the instructor cannot do it well or at least know how to break down the components to correct a problem. Shopping isn't always a bad thing.

The latest line of thinking has the following assumptions:

1. An instructor who fails a lot of students must be really, really good, just as a plumber whose repair jobs regularly leak must be a really, really good plumber. An instructor's job is to teach. If an instructor admits a qualified student into a properly designed class, if the qualified student works diligently, and if the student was properly instructed, then that student should pass the class. If not, at least one of those conditions was not met. If a specific instructor has a lot of students failing his or her classes, my bets would start learning toward the quality of the instruction.

2. A student who fails a class and then goes to a different instructor is looking for someone with lower standards. In reality, he or she might be looking for a better instructor. He or she might not have had the necessary beginning skills needed for success, took time off to work on them, and then switched for any of a number of reasons. I know someone who went for cave training with very little previous dive experience and could see he wasn't going to make it. He took a year working in a tech diving program to improve his skills. His original instructor had been of the "drill-sergeant-curse-your-every-mistake" mode of instruction, and when the student decided he was ready to return to cave instruction, he chose someone with a less confrontational approach to instruction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

The latest line of thinking has the following assumptions:

1. An instructor who fails a lot of students must be really, really good, just as a plumber whose repair jobs regularly leak must be a really, really good plumber. An instructor's job is to teach. If an instructor admits a qualified student into a properly designed class, if the qualified student works diligently, and if the student was properly instructed, then that student should pass the class. If not, at least one of those conditions was not met. If a specific instructor has a lot of students failing his or her classes, my bets would start learning toward the quality of the instruction.

2. A student who fails a class and then goes to a different instructor is looking for someone with lower standards. In reality, he or she might be looking for a better instructor. He or she might not have had the necessary beginning skills needed for success, took time off to work on them, and then switched for any of a number of reasons. I know someone who went for cave training with very little previous dive experience and could see he wasn't going to make it. He took a year working in a tech diving program to improve his skills. His original instructor had been of the "drill-sergeant-curse-your-every-mistake" mode of instruction, and when the student decided he was ready to return to cave instruction, he chose someone with a less confrontational approach to instruction.

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Further to your post and Trace's above, some instructors and students gel, others don't. It's a matter of style and personalities involved. I am laughing at what you perceive to be a military style course. You need to separate selection style courses from content style courses. One thing I much prefer from military classes is the team teaching approach, when one instructor is not as successful as imparting a skill or concept, another is often capable. Don't mistake this for the team pile on used when the leadership cadre decided that somebody isn't suited however.

However your point in 1 above "qualified student into a properly designed class" is problematic. Frankly without diving with the prospective student, there is no manner for an instructor to actually know if somebody is actually qualified versus certified. The student has the same problem with instructors with the additional burden of "they don't know what they don't know". Often you will see an instructor that completely lacks skills but makes up in qualifications and a "name" that sure would seem like a great choice.. they sometimes are not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cerich

However your point in 1 above "qualified student into a properly designed class" is problematic. Frankly without diving with the prospective student, there is no manner for an instructor to actually know if somebody is actually qualified versus certified.

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I absolutely agree with this, Chris. I think cave instruction has the biggest problem of all diving instruction. If a student shows up, has paid for the class, and is thoroughly unqualified to begin the class, the instructor has a real problem. Perhaps there just needs to be a more thorough description of the kinds of skills that are needed before the class begins than I have seen in the past. When I was doing my first day of cavern class in the Ginnie Springs Ballroom, my instructor was approached by someone who was interested in starting a class. We later saw him in the open area of the ballroom practicing his skills while kneeling on the bottom. That diver was a long way from being ready to start cave training.

I am not a cave instructor, but I am a tech instructor. A few years ago, a new student came to me for beginning tech classes, and I was under the impression that he had just the typical minimum requirements for the course. He had all his own equipment already, which was a good sign. As is typical, he struggled with buoyancy and trim at first, and we had to work on that. As is typical of someone with that issue, he struggled to do the valve drills. Eventually he got it all down, and he went through the whole program. Near the end, he said something about his early training that stunned me. When he first came to me, he had already taken and passed GUE Fundamentals. If I had known that, I would have certainly had higher expectations about the skills he was bringing into the class. I think that shows how very hard it is to predict what a student is bringing into the course in terms of skills.

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

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A few good pics could really give this thread a boost...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...24a3caf78e.jpg


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Hey Tony. It's ummmm 10 pages.

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I already have the email typed up.


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I figured it would be Rosie O'Donnel with Trump all over again. She never left either. :)

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

When he first came to me, he had already taken and passed GUE Fundamentals.

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What endorsements were on his card? If he got a rec pass in a single tank and wetsuit and later learned drysuit and doubles on his own or got a tech pass in doubles and wetsuit and later went back and learned drysuit on his own or if he simply stopped diving for a long time and hadn't continued maintaining those skills I could totally see this as possible. A fundies card is a good sign but it isn't a pair of magic underwear.

Case in point... I recently met up with an instructor from Houston who is a far more accomplished diver then I am. He's won awards for cave rescues and dove with people like Kirill Egorov. I was sure to tell him up front that I was in a brand new drysuit and trying LP95s for the first time and that my trim and buoyancy might be off as I tweak things. I was also sure to tell him my deco training is from IANTD not GUE Tech 1. I don't want to ever get into the water with people and misunderstandings or missed expectations on what to expect. Having a fundies card just means that I went through that level of training nothing else.

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Originally Posted by chrpai

Case in point... and dove with people like Kirill Egorov.

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Kirill has been known to slum with some real riffraff. This isn?t always a benchmark of distinction.


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Originally Posted by Draker

Kirill has been known to slum with some real riffraff. This isn?t always a benchmark of distinction.

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Good to know. I guess my point wasn't to build this other diver up but to describe that he might have certain high expectations on what to expect from a GUE diver based on that. Obviously I wouldn't be at that level. Perhaps this wouldn't be obvious if someone thought that GUE divers were mythical unicorns or something.