In the face of the recent change of the Godzilla circuit being made into a T, should there be a public announcement (eg forums, Facebook etc) when a line change occurs at "tourist" caves that are a popular diving and training sites?
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In the face of the recent change of the Godzilla circuit being made into a T, should there be a public announcement (eg forums, Facebook etc) when a line change occurs at "tourist" caves that are a popular diving and training sites?
No DILLIGAF option? ;)
Safe diving,
Rich
It wouldn't hurt anything.
Is there a phone app for this?
Linesnap
Snapline
FaceLine
iLine
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Line Change Announcement:
Yesterday the slack in the Connecticut Room was a little loose, so I double wrapped it around a rock in the center of the floor.
Please let your friends, family and loved ones know, on the off chance that they don't dive every day and may not notice the change.
Tracy
What was the NACD option?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Govern yourself appropriately?
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LOL Tony!
Safe diving,
Rich
Something like this would be good for those of us who are not local and only make it over a few times a year. My question is what is the best means of actually getting this information out? On here? A specific page on Facebook people follow?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
Thanks for making your sarcasm sort of obvious. I really hate when people post sort of ambiguous snarcasm and I have to read it two or three times to be sure.. ;)
I surely hope you get the difference between cleaning up a loose line, or fixing an obvious safety hazard .. vs the kind of permanent routing changes that this thread is meant to address. I am sort of surprised at the # of people who posted that they think unreported changes are ok. That's kind of why I tend to hate surveys. Because its hard to include all potential qualifiers to might change some peoples answers.
I mean.. heck.. What If I got a wild hair one morning, and decided I thought there should be a T at the park bench and integrate the bone line into the gold line. (just an example to make a point.... not a real suggestions).. According to 4 surveyed here, that's perfectly ok. And it might not present an issue for many folks here who know the system. But what about the many folks who travel in and don't see these caves all that ofen.
With exception of repairing a line, or correcting a safety issue.. I don't think the average joe-cave diver should be messing around with permanent lines in caves. If there is a good reason to make a change, it should be made public.
Posting on the Interwebs is reasonable, but not everyone checks Facebook / Forums etc. What's wrong with a written notice posted at the site? What the change was, who made it and why.
The potential problem would be somewhere like Little River, which would be an invitation by the locals to remove it. Generally most of us go by shops, and some notice there would be good. Nothing will be 100% foolproof,but need to start somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadHeadDiver
Then not everyone gets the information, pretty simple, right? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadHeadDiver
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler
If you're diving and the line has been changed from what you remember, you should have the skills and equipment to maintain a continuous line and to mark any points of potential confusion. Or if it's making you uncomfortable, turn the dive.
Actually I would expect the information to be more valuable to the locals than those making it few times a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Eternal
When I get to a cave site after a long period I would NEVER expect the cave to be exactly as I remember it, so why would a change notice be important.
Essentially if I don't dive a cave frequently I will dive it as I am diving it for the first time. In a first time cave it really don't matter how the line is actually routed, does it?
For the locals and frequent visitors complacency is much more likely and an "expectation" that the cave should be as known, there I can see how an unannounced change could actually cause real issues, if the diver did not pay full attention because of a certain "expectation"..
I think it depends on the change. If I haven't dove a specific area of a cave, or haven't done it in a while, and I'm following instructions - they need to be clear. Like the Godzilla Room example. If there was a T instead of a jump, I'd question if I had found the right room. I wouldn't be able to be certain if I was in the right spot. Locals and/or frequent divers would know something had changed, cookie the T, and wonder why that happened. The local/frequent diver would then proceed about their dive with no ill effects and still get to where they were going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
As for how to get the word out: I think it'd need to be multi-faceted. Not everyone gets online before a dive trip, especially locals. Dive shops might be a better solution. The issue with just posting it in dive shops is not everybody dives the same caves out of the same shops (or any shop, for that matter, for those that self-fill). I've dove Madison with gas fills from at least four different dive shops. Same with Peacock. Same with Little River. Plus, those are just the "common" caves.....would we post about the small/infrequent caves?
Different industry, hobby, and set of rules, but: In flying, changes in rules and/or status of airports/airspaces are sent out in periodically updated books. Notices to Airmen (NOTAMs) are available online in a cohesive location. It's FAA-controlled and dictated, so it's something outside of what we as a community are currently doing. Maybe one idea would be to leverage CaveAtlas as a location for our NOTADs.
Lets make cave tourism great again
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#make2018epicQuote:
Originally Posted by Garth
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My habit is to treat every dive site as if things may have changed since I was there last. I've seen that time and time again.
If it saves one life, if it keeps caves open for cave divers....im for posting it at dive site as well as all social media options, dive shops, etc......that said ....all cave divers should be comfortable encountering the unknown and unexpected in overhead environments. Turn the dive if there is ANY doubts or insecurities whatsoever.
Just curious because I don't get on here often... But did whoever made the change to the Godzilla circuit in the last couple of weeks... (2 months)... make an announcement on here? I didn't see anything at the site, and was surprised when we went left at what had become a T and circled around to find that someone had cut 25 ft of line back out. Seemed like a pretty ballsy move and I'm glad our team didn't have an issue and then come up on an end of the line expecting a T. Gotta love cave Gods and their egos. ;)
I don't understand, so going in there was a T but not when you came back the other side?! So the line is cut back yet still leaving a T, or is it just back to how it used to be? Because if it's back to how it used to be, one should not come up on an end of the line of a continuous circuit expecting a T since there were none going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
And speaking of line changes announcements, I heard that the Sweet Passage line in JB is now a continuous circuit, with the line coming from the left being extended and T'd into the line coming from the right, close to the far end, thus obviating the need for a jump reel in the low and silty areas at both ends. I did not verify that.
They cut the line but didn't fix the arrows, so it still looked like a T going in. We dropped a cookie on the exit side but didn't look over to make sure the line was intact as it was thr last 8 times I had done the circuit.
To be honest, I don't think there should be Ts in any system. Putting in a jump line diminishes the opportunity for misunderstandings or confusion. But cutting a T out from a place where it actually makes sense just feels like an ego move. I was wondering of the white knight had posted it anywhere or just went for it.
I disagree about not having any T's. If you make an inadvertent jump you still have a continuous line to the surface. I can certainly see not having T's in the front part of the popular training / tourist caves as jumps need to be practiced and it would ever further restrict intro divers.
You're missing the point, brah.
That was a personal opinion on Ts. I was just asking if anyone announced the change anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
I'm confused. Not being a douche. How did you not see it wasn't a t? Regardless of the arrows if it's a t you'll have 2 lines (mainline and the t line) when you enter. If it's a jump you'll have one(just the mainline). Was there a t on the mainline but on the back end of the circuit that line that came from the mainline was a dead end and from there you had to run line to the end of the circuit?
He didn't miss a point. You stated your opinion and he stated his personal opinion on T's.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
For the record I totally agree with him.
As to the reversed T change in Madison, I don't think it was announced here.
For all practical purposes to me it's not a big deal. The line is still continuous even if it is tied off on one end.
Someone getting to that end would at least be able to swim the other way and get to the exit.
So it's probably ok either way (T or jump).
Having T's that are not connected on either side can be a very bad thing, it depends.
I've done an inadvertent jump onto another in very low vis and it could have been fatal.
It ended up being a lost line search 3200' back in the cave in absolute zero viz.
Yes, I know it should not happen but there are circumstances where it can and does in fact happen.
The importance of T'ing in depends on the location of course but some jumps are truly very bad and dangerous.
I have reason to believe that such lines have already led to fatalities and I know of several recent cases that ended up being a close call.
But are the steps done? Or do you have to get in and out of Martz?
Attachment 17957
I can't think of any gold line Ts in Florida caves that are "very bad and dangerous". Anyway, back to my original point, which has nothing to do with whether or not Ts should exist....
Richard, I drew you an artistic rendition of what the line looked like at the time of my dive. Blue line is the existing line. Green was the line that was there on precious dives but was cut out. The arrow on the side tied off to the rock shouldn't have been there.
None of this matters. It wasn't a big deal. I was just curious about whether or the change was posted since there had been some discussion on this particular spot.
Ken, we rappelled directly over the No Jumping sign in the headspring. Rules are very important.
I would say that many of the gold line T's in the back of JB could be improved. There are several up on the ceiling and the gold line back there is smaller and stained so that the stained T'd in lines look similar especially on a scooter.
Yes, and I have been tricked into following a side lead, because it looked like goldline.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Makes more sense despite your channeling jackson pollock. Why would they cut it back there and not just remove it at the mainline. Dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
Ego move, probably not, possibly something that can be understood with a Myers-Briggs. Someone changes a line, and someone else gets upset and changes it back-has happened a lot in the past and result can be line wars. I would just be highly attentive because based on philosophies etc, things change a lot. My favorite is the permanent versus temporary line arrows, and the temporary line arrows point in the direction of my travel ,even though they contradict the existing line arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
Why would someone point arrows in the direction they travel? Contraindicated from what is taught in class. That is scary to me
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Is this the first circuit you come to in JB?Quote:
Originally Posted by LMN
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There are people that are teaching this, and there are cave divers that have been taught this, and swear it is the gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
That?s crazy! Someone could die. What book are they using?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
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Don't know. I read this frequently on Scubaboard's cave diving subforum. Usually the comment is prefaced by, "I was taught" or "My instructor taught me". There is some argument that there are permanent line arrows and personal line arrows that people have marked in some way. The rationale that a personal line arrow can contradict a permanent line arrow, especially if an exit up ahead hasn't been verified. My thoughts, in a lights out, or zero viz situation, especially when you are stressed, nobody will tell the difference between permanent and personal line arrows. Conventional wisdom is that all line arrows should be consistent, and use nondirectional markers for something different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Totally agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
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We had this happen on a recent dive in Peacock a month or so ago. We entered P1 planning to do the wishbone circuit. At some point we came across an arrow facing the opposite direction and didn't think much of it. Then the arrow, shortly after, switched back to the original, exiting direction. This was a bit confusing but the whole team noticed and confirmed the arrow changes. Later on we were hanging out at Dive Outpost and asked DJ and he said sometimes you find this. It was not a big deal since we all noticed it but I could see this causing confusion if it were missed or even worse finding this in zero visibility. I don't understand the logic behind doing this at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
A double fatality was facilitated by a line arrow facing the wrong way. From computer downloads it was discovered the team went back and forth over a certain area, and conflicting line arrows were more likely the cause of the confusionQuote:
Originally Posted by BluEclipse17
I don?t see how your question has anything to do with the line change but the answer is no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Thank you. I sent pm with my reason for asking. [emoji3]Quote:
Originally Posted by LMN
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I dove sweet passage on 05/13 and can confirm that the Sweet Passage is a full loop aka circuit and that is only at the end of it. Its a very short loop. IMHO that location should be a loop and no jumps. Get to the T, cookie it, swim straight ahead and you will basically loop clockwise back to your cookie.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMN
What worried me more are the yellow lines in the area which are T'd off into the lines, but lead into areas where you pretty much have to grovel thru the mud and there's already evidence of such which is a shame since the whole area is gorgeous. Those lines are "shortcuts" between existing lines and don't really anything useful for divers to visit.
Well I am one of those that have been taught that own arrows may contradict permanent arrows. As would likely ALL other divers that have not been trained in FL..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
FL is the only area know to me that handles it that way. Europe, Mexico is teaching to tie an offboard jump in the middle of the line that does not have an arrow pointing towards your exit, to place an arrow towards your exit tie the line into it and make the connection.
The alternative is using a Rem, which eliminates the issue of course. I have a system with Cookies that I can use when I am diving in your neck of the woods and such situation would occur, because of course I would respect local rules..
But please be aware that this is by far NOT a universal rule but very specific to Fl (and potentially all US) cave diving. But once you leave that area you might very much encounter such situations.
As the offboard jump is the only situation this occurs I am sorry to say that but if a diver is not able to understand a contradicting arrow with a line tied into ist as an individual and not permanent arrow then such diver should likely not be there in the first place.
Also what is the is the issue with contradicting (your exit direction) arrows? You negate hose with your cookie and move on..
With the described jump you would have to place a cookie once you come across it no matter what as it will represent a T no matter which direction the arrow is pointing in which it is tied in..
Y'all may flame away now.. it is not gonna change how things are taught in other areas of the world!
Ever since I discovered this difference (because for one taught that different school your attitude towards it is completely surprising) I had been paying specific attention to it and ask every instructor I come across how they teach it. It is a complete regional thing.. I just recently dicussed this with my old instructor I did Full Cave with who I had not been back with in 7 years.. same outcome.. Also my instrcutors in Mexico same thing..
Don't expect things to be the same when you travel.. this also applies to cave diving ;)
Obviously. Until the jump with contradicting arrow is placed AFTER you're already past that point and then you're in a zero vis exit on the way back and second guessing the proper way out when you get to that new conflicting arrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
I was also trained in Mexico and trained to use arrows on the main line for my exit even if they contradict but a good point is raised here where that could lead to issues for others. I guess if everyone used rems and nobody placed arrows in any direction (because you'd have the same problem with a new arrow pointed in the "proper exit direction" if it was not your exit direction and you had not canceled because it was not there on the way in) then the issue would be solved.
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My solution to marking my return direction when it differs from the permanent line arrows is a "directional cookie." This is a cookie with notches filed into it. I place the cookie with the notches away from my intended exit route. Since this is a personal code, it doesn't confuse someone who is following the line arrows.
I can assure you this is NOT just a Florida thing or a Mexico thing. To contradict the arrow scheme for a personal navigational decision is batty, off the wall, and flat out stupid. Whoever is teaching this needs to stop. Line arrows should point to the nearest exit. If that is not your exit, mark it accordingly with a cookie or REM. DO NOT CONTRADICT THE EXISTING SYSTEM LINE ARROWS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
SAVE A LIFE, BE A COOKIE MONSTER
Couldn't agree more. Don't know why we keep seeing discussions with the comment," My instructor taught me that my personal line arrows should point in the direction of my travel....." even though that contradicts existing line arrows. Accident analysis says that we learn from an accident, and so that death isn't meaningless, we apply these lessons learned. Two cave divers DIED in Madison Blue and a contributing cause was a line facing opposite the exit. We know they swam back and forth between line arrows pointing in opposite directions, because their dive computer depths validated this. This lost time in gas could have been the difference between a close call and dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebernot
I've heard this before but I don't know details about the actual dive. All I know, and I might be wrong, it is that it was inferred that the arrow pointing in the other direction led to their death based on their dive profile showing that they kept going back and forth through the Half Hitch. If that is the case, when does one stop going back and forth between contradicting arrows? When does one says "screw it, I've felt this arrows before and it makes no sense" and decides to go past the arrow that points the opposite way just to see/feel a second directional arrow? I've been through Half Hitch, it is not something one would not remember going back through it. It changes depth on both ends going through it and the upstream and downstream ends are very different, one could not mistake which direction they were going even in zero viz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
There are a lot of factors to this episode (and having to go from memory). The half hitch had shifted, though it never really collapsed, and this deposited fine clay silt through out the area,which caused an easy silt out. The line through the area was repaired with white line to re-route it, and that is where I understand the line arrow facing the wrong way was seen. The divers were from up north, and were 1-2 time a year cave divers, so things like knowledge of the system, peak skills for anti-silting etc may not been 100%. All these things became the perfect storm of Murphy. The Nitek computer was fairly new with the ability to download profiles, and it showed they had gone back and forth, with conflicting line arrows being an issue. Somewhere along the way they figured out that problem because must have felt the half hitch had shifted again, because they tried to no-mount through one of the areas off to the side. The question was how much time/air was lost because of navigating conflicting line arrows, which could have helped a self rescue. When does one say ,"screw it"- remember when you are stressed, and in low viz etc, your rationalization skills are impaired. This was an accident, with many things going wrong on different levels. What is scary is there are people actually training other cave divers that putting a conflicting line arrow on the line is okay, and there is difference between a permanent line arrow that exists already, a personal line arrow you place for your use, and contradiction is okay. I remember having to swim out over 2000ft back in JB when a collapse blew out the system and had inches of viz. I am thankful I had line arrows to aide my navigation and didn't have to deal with a confusing/conflicting line arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMN
Good luck teaching the Rest of World to do it different than what is currently taught..Quote:
Originally Posted by jebernot
My personal bet would be you wont succeed, so maybe just keep in th eback of your head that you might encounter such situation if you are diving elsewhere than FL..
The latter was the only intention in regards to my comment. I did not want to discuss whether what is taught elsewhere on this world is right or wrong!
I already stated that personally I work with my own cookie system.
But when I am for example taking a guide in Mx I will not interfere with them doing it their way (which are usually all also Cave instructors - and certainly I am not in a position to tell them being wrong)
If you think this is wrong and want to have it changed in the ROW the path to do it would be via the training agencies, and here I can state from personal experience that at least IANTD and their instructors are teaching it in the way I had decribed..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Again.. maybe you are tired of this discussion, and there is no doubt that to your view this is wrong.
However it does not change the FACT (not alternative fact) that it is being taught differently in other parts of the world and when you encounter divers that have been taught this way they might actually do as they are taught!
or in other words: only because you disagree with it is not going to change it ;)
Just to be clear it is not only taught contradicting is "ok" it is taught that this is the actual only correct way to do it when working with arrows.. The possibility of a REm is being mentioned nowadays though.. There might nowadays even be a shift towards promoting to preferably to use a REM, but the fall back would be the arrow and it will be taught that the correcdt way to place such personal arrow is towards your exit no matter what!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I have to mention that it is also trained in no vis scenarios to deal with potentially contradicting arrows and to differentiate between a permanent and personal arrow in no vis etc.
Again I am not saying that this school is right nor I am saying it is utterly wrong though I am only pointing out it does exist and in my personal observation it is the majority of instructors outside US!
Talking about scary, one could add it is scary that there seems to be little awareness that this school exists and it is scary if divers are not trained to deal with contradicting arrows... Just saying..
Honestly, I am not tired of discussing this, because the more people understand how FAS it is, they will realize it is a safety issue. Even having a difference between a permanent and personal line arrows as a potential justification is equally as FAS. In a stressful situation where there could be silt, lights out, air share who is going to stop and feel each line arrow and see if this arrow has a notch, two holes drilled, magic angel glitter to differentiate it from permanent line arrows- why do I want to slow a team performing an emergency egress and task them with this. I know the people who created the line arrow, and the purpose was intended to point to the closest exit. Please buy REMs, buy cookies.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
Neither am I, Kelly and LMAO at the second part... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Safe diving,
Rich
So when the intention of the inventors of the Sparrow was always to point to the closest exit, what is one supposed to do in emergency? Head to such closest exit even when it is an unidentified exit?
There would be examples where the latter also already had killed people..
and if one should not head for the closest exit even it is unknown, why is it important that the arrow points to the closest exit?
Again I am all for a Rem or 'remed' cookie solution, but it dies not change the fact that people are being taught to place an arrow towards their exit direction placing a Jump no matter what and discussion it here wont change that especially since nur seems most here are on the same page. If this is such an important safety issue, then it should be Adresse to the training agencies and they would have to each out to their instructors..
If someone is being a prudent cave diver then exits are known and checked. Performing progressive penetration and learning the cave, because line doesn't guarantee an exit. Doing a traverse and testing it from one direction, which means verifying exits, before completing the whole traverse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
What examples?Quote:
There would be examples where the latter also already had killed people..
Why does the arrow point a particular direction for a one way street? Why is there an arrow coming off I75 to head to High Springs? Why does the arrow on map always point to north? It is for navigation purposes, and that is why the line arrow was created. We kept the clothes pin, as well as cookie/REM later.Quote:
why is it important that the arrow points to the closest exit?
You are right it is being taught, and threads like this give visibility to that fact. Anybody that has an instructor that has been taught something other than the mainstream convention really needs to challenge what they have been taught by that person, and make sure their skills and knowledge haven't put them at risk. Just like sidemount became a fad in the OW industry, instructors would buy equipment and learn from a course director one weekend, and start teaching the next weekend, we have some similar issues in cave diving- so when picking an instructor caveat emptor.Quote:
not change the fact that people are being taught to place an arrow towards their exit direction placing a Jump no matter what and discussion it here wont change that especially since nur seems most here are on the same page..
With that nowadays exploration would likely get nowhere. Are they not prudent ? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Also does not really fall in line with what is happening on a daily basis in Mexico, but I get your point.
And of course once the penetration was slowly progressive and unknown exit might become a known exit, but then it is exactly that a known exit and not what you meant. What do you do in an emergency with arrows pointing to an unknown exit. if unknown you should not tempt that exit but us your exit as you know you can pass and if following establish gas rules you should also have sufficient gas to make that exit, which you don't with the unknown exit. Might be a deeper passage and thus it might be shorter/closer but you still need more gas or it might have restrictions that you simply wont be able to pass. Having said that, what's the personal worth in such situation to have it pointed towards the closest exit?
Well pretty much all those recent and past Kalimba accidents come to mind. Of course those had other issues as well, but they all had some correlation to making a decision to head for a different exit than the own.. The last accident there even involved a friend of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
hmm I would strongly argue the fact that this is a result of "poorly educated" instructors. It is simply a different school that is being followed it is being taught that way by the highest respected instructors in cave diving in other areas of the world starting as close to the US as Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
By the way I am all for this discussion to further safe practices in cave diving, but why I seem to be unsuccessful to really given your reactions is that this is a topic in regards to school by region and not "some bad apples"
How would you know what's been taught in Europe? That one guy who also teaches sidemount with two backplates might teach that. That's only in Sardinia. Were else in Europe have you been trained to do that Frank?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
I would also like to know more about these cases were people got killed by following the arrow pointing to the closest exit? Did you just make that up Frank or do you actually know of some cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
Believe it or not Bent. I actually do know other cave divers that have been trained in Europe outside of Sardinia, that follow the same school. How do I know? Because I asked them. Actually ever since I had been made aware of the "other school" (I.e not contradicting existing arrows years ago at my first trip to cave country) I revisited this topic with all my cave instructors and regularly bring it up when I meet fellow cave divers from all around the world. Due to that my observation is, and hence I keep raising it, that this practise is far more spread than folks here believe.. It is just getting less of an issue as more folks tend to use some form of rems anyways..Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
As for the guy the "one guy" on Sardinia. He is IT you know... and there are several instructors teaching at his place and I would think that his outfit has quite a huge share in at least the western European new trained cave divers..
It would help to read answers already given.. check my reply to Kelly.. I already wrote several examples.. I am sure there is more..and sure trying the arrows to the closest access will never be a singular issue as something needed to have triggered to try to go for the "unknown" closest exit.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
The guys in kalimba got killed because they tried to reach the closest exit? Yeah, right. If you're lost and you're running low on gas you better be going to the closest exit. At this point is doesn't matter whether it's known or not.
Kelly and I were asking about a case were someone who got killed because of permanent arrows pointing to the closest exit.
Arrows should only ever be placed permanently as arrow-jumps can be mistaken by other divers as Ts (and that is dangerous). Also, dont do more than one new jump per dive.
The double backplate guy is an IT, so what? ITs are a dime a dozen.
So I ask again: In what cases did people get killed because they followed an arrow pointing to the closest exit? I'm sure you don't know any, but you cant admit it. You just like to ramble and try to be a contrarian. (Beratungsresistent would be a good word in German).
Frank, there was a report and an analysis posted on here about that kalimba accident. You should read it.
With all the discussion I find it amazing there are not many deaths each month. I go by what I was taught in class using the Nss/Cds book. I have somehow managed to stay alive since 1998. Maybe I need to dive more
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We all need to dive more, especially the Germans who seem to enjoy arguing amongst themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
I keep hoping someone will create a separate sub forum just for the two of them to banter aimlessly.
We could let Nakatomi moderate.
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I personally would like to see the premier German cave diver be the moderator. Can someone message Daniel Razorista on Facebook and see if he has some free time? He has blocked me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
It's been a while. Plus, I have stayed out of almost all 'what sidemount rig to buy' threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker
Your're probably unblocked again... and yes, I'm sure he has lots of free time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Hokey Smokes! I'm glad I read this thread. I can't imagine that during an emergency, I'd find a line arrow pointing randomly to some particular person's exit, no matter where in a system it lies. When all is good, it wouldn't be too big of an issue, but somewhat confusing. When there's a big problem--like Bent says, low on gas (or maybe a silt out or whatever), agitation and confusion -- maybe even panic can set in. Good lord, keep those arrows pointing to the nearest exit!
Nitrogenius, maybe I missed it in this thread, but why is a cookie or REM not sufficient for personal markings for a team's route out?
No luckily I am still blockedQuote:
Originally Posted by bent
I have seen it. Also i had a lot insight before as "Diver 1" was my friend and I used to dive with him exactly at Kalimba making things worse..Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
The report just co Firma my point, but I have no hope you are trying to see what I am getting being all busy just to find a reason why I have to be wrong.. ironically you call me 'beratungsresistent' in that context.. as you can even see even other Readers are getting wxhausted of this so this will be my Last resp8nd to you i this thread..
Obviously nobody will push to an unknown different exit past third without an other issue.. tue latter would just be plain stupid, so that was a pretty moot point.
Looking at your question, I really seem to have difficulties getting my message across understandably..Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Rens and Cookies are obviously the better choice. I stated that several times and this is what I do as well.
I just wanted to creative awareness that I habe been Trainer differently and a lot of other being trained in Mexico and Europe are currently still beingcreained differently..
So it was actually meant as a courtesy that once you dive in other woods this is a Situation you might very well encounter no matter how much you dislike it or it is being frowned upon in FL..
No, it does not. Having arrows pointing to the closed exit had nothing to do with this case whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
Jeez, yes, finally. Start by writing short posts and not rambling on for pages on end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
It has a lot to do with it! Do you think they would have made the choice to go for Gran exit even when arrow would have pointed towards Kalimba? While Isaac says it would have been similar far to Ho Tul and the stages to me it seems they were closer to the stages and if they had gone for them tzey might have made it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
The gas Management issue is only a theory that is not proven and in any case the wetnltes das they wanted to go for Gran not HoTul which in any case would have been farther..
So in this stressed Situation and decision making there is no doubt to me that the arrow direction will have played a role in the decision !
It is a very long thread, and it doesn't surprise me that I might have missed it/forgotten it. Thanks for the clarification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
You're welcome..Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
I get it, You know better than Isaac and anyone else... same as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
I actually think you're trolling and you're doing these posts for fun and wind up people. It's obvious that they either didn't check their gas or didn't plan properly. Maybe you should post your theory in the other thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
I?d love to hear the backstory on why you two hate each other so much. Its probably more entertainig than the continual shots at each other.
Sounds like a new thread needs to be started.
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I dont hate him. I met him once and he actually seems to be a reasonable and ok guy. Some folks get odd online though and he seems to be one of these..Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
He is having a hard time to accept that I just do not accept opinions cause they are Mainstream but always make up my own mind and due to that it seems HE has to find Arguments where and why I am wrong just for the matter if it and then accusing me for trolling or being hard headed (beratungsresistent) while upon some reflection je would maybe see that he is in fact complaining about himself.. I am not ging to respond to that crap anymore, if one want to argue that in such stressed Situation the direction of the arrows would not have played a role and needs to sidetrack to "knowing better than anyone else and trolling" then the discussion is moot and not useful as it is only meant to "proof" that I am wrong no matter the merit..
Sorry to dissapoint you but there is not much of a story. Maybe he wants to be the only German in this place entitled to an opinion after Oliver doesnt really post here anymore.. who knows.. I dont really care..
Rich, can you follow his logic in this or a whole bunch of other threads? This is a good example right here... two guys run out of gas after 120 min at 13 m. Mind you, they went through 5500 l of gas each. How, in what world could that not have been related to either the gas planning or not checking gas or both? Now it's an example of arrows pointing to te closest exit? The people that are privy to more info than us don't think so either. Yet, Frank has another theory, yet again. I'd be surprised if you didn't think that's a wacky.
I gotta say though, I annoys me much more when some Germans posts wacky stuff than when some other nationality posts wacky stuff.
Have to admit I like Germans a lot, except when they embarrassed me on a soccer field (oops...football pitch), but having a propensity for the last word does mean this thread will continue for infinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
No, I'm done. It's pointless.
Finally something to agree to..Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
I skip over alot of what you guys write to each other because it's becoming bickering. I think you guys often both have good points. Some I don't agree with. Either way, the way you guys go after each other makes it hard to get through the posts and find out if there's good points or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
I can?t believe this thread is still going.
#make2018great
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I know! It is not even funny reading the bickering and ego trips anymore. Time to close it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
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Ok, ok. From now on you don't have to read in this thread anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Personally I would rather read cave diver bickering, and get more from it, than political bickering on something like FacebookQuote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I think a law should be written if all you do is post on fb how good or bad this or that candidate/politician is, you should be required to be punched in the face by all of your fb friends.
Why is this old thread popping up again?
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Probably because somebody saw it and answered the poll question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverlee
Which is why I hate polls. Poles, I love (north, south, barber, you name it), polls, not so much!Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
What about Pols? ... asks the guy whose name ends in "ski" ��Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Definitely no hate for Pols! :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by cmalinowski