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When you go in Orange Grove and hit the Distance tunnel does the gold line continue on to Challange Sink? Dove it this weekend and at the 900' mark was the center marking arrows. We continued on past to the 700' mark before thumbing the dive. So would we have been at Challange in 700 more feet?
http://i67.tinypic.com/iml0f4.jpg
That is correct
Bill
If you continue down the gold line past the jump to the distance tunnel, be careful when you turn around. it's easy to accidentally jump onto the distance tunnel line if you're not paying attention because it goes straight ahead and the gold line makes a hard right turn and up at the same time.
I almost did it the first time there and I suspect, but don't know for sure, that may have contributed to a death there at least once.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by cmint
It's not exactly a reach gap, it's some 12' or so. Also the two lines do differ. One is white and the other is thicker and gold.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
IIRC, the death was before goldline, so both lines were the same. There was a light failure or some other problem, and in dealing with it one diver got off onto the Distance Tunnel line. She was convinced that she was headed toward the exit but was swimming out the Distance Tunnel. Her buddy tried to convince her otherwise to the limits of his gas but was unable to get her to turn around - he finally left and was able to exit at OG with almost no gas remaining. I'm sure that somebody on the CDF knows the details better.
That's the story I've read on here as well, and the last death leading up to the introduction of gold line.
also be careful because once you pass the distance tunnel, you are diving a siphon (albeit mild). To answer your question though, yes the gold line continues to Challenge then to Olsen and then onto P1. There is another goldline through a jump down the peanut tunnel shortly before you get to Olsen too.
One is gold with some brown/tannic staining and one is white dyed brown from silt and tannins, if you are not paying attention (lacking line awareness) yes it is entirely possible to not realize you've jumped from dirty yellow line to dirty white line and not immediately realize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
A man in P3 made an accidental jump and his name was one of the surveyors listed on the map for p3. Yes, it's possible to fudge things up if you are not paying attention.
Actually I was talking about one last year, but I don't know for a fact that was what happened. It was just my own theory about how the events could have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
If you do that, is it the Grand Traverse?Quote:
Originally Posted by CHartmann
The information on last year's accident in OG was that a team of two did a visual jump to the distance tunnel line, possibly silted the passage out and could have had issues returning back to the gold line. They continued on the gold line towards the exit when the fatality happened, supposedly due to one of the sidemount tanks being turned off.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmint
It is, in my opinion, very unlikely that they got onto the distance tunnel by accident, especially since one in the team was (to my information) a cave instructor.
The line awareness issue I would of course agree with. On the other hand the distance tunnel jump is not a very tricky area for anyone with a normal level of awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmint
As to the PIII accident, if I remember that correctly the diver was a student who had been left by himself at the top of the jump to Hendley's castle. The instructor had gone deeper with another student and left the second student at the top. The diver attempted to exit on his own and jumped onto an alternate line and eventually ran out of gas.
PIII is a different beast due to visibility and general conditions of silt and particulate on the line so I can see a mistake like that happen. Also this specific jump has been pulled back since.
Cave instructor?? Really?? It's amazing how gossip and rumor blow out of proportion.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
"Did you hear about the surfer dude that pulled a gun on Mister Hand?"
We're talking about a recently minted intro diver (Doby45). He's probably just beginning to develop his cave awareness.Quote:
The line awareness issue I would of course agree with. On the other hand the distance tunnel jump is not a very tricky area for anyone with a normal level of awareness.
Umm, different story. The one Chad referred to was Bill Hurst, who got lost in P3. His death was one of the things that lead to the creation of the line arrow.Quote:
As to the PIII accident, if I remember that correctly the diver was a student who had been left by himself at the top of the jump to Hendley's castle. The instructor had gone deeper with another student and left the second student at the top. The diver attempted to exit on his own and jumped onto an alternate line and eventually ran out of gas.
PIII is a different beast due to visibility and general conditions of silt and particulate on the line so I can see a mistake like that happen. Also this specific jump has been pulled back since.
Well generall speaking (not criticizing you or anyone else personally) it wouldn't be such an issue if information was shared instead of forgotten and swept under the closest rug.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Yes, that is to be commended. Awareness is absolutely vital.Quote:
We're talking about a recently minted intro diver (Doby45). He's probably just beginning to develop his cave awareness.
That is a very interesting piece of history. Line arrows are a huge improvement from the old Dorff markers (or even no markers).Quote:
Umm, different story. The one Chad referred to was Bill Hurst, who got lost in P3. His death was one of the things that lead to the creation of the line arrow.
Original thread of the accident I was referring to.
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ty-at-Peacock?
TRUTH.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
That accident was on the P1 side and not the Orange Grove end. The way I remember it the team did a circuit via the crossover line. While everything went according to schedule, the deceased supposedly got confused at some point as to which way is out and there was team separation and a fatality. Very sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaru
Gotcha. After I started reading through it again, it wasn't old enough to be the one I thought it was anyway. There was already gold line in the cave at this point.
The color of the line is certainly a huge safety factor for todays divers but as Ken Sallot pointed out, cave awareness is also a big part of the equation. Not much conversation about Dorf markers so far but the fatality at the Distance Tunnel ( the female ) "might" have been prevented if she had paid attention to the direction of the markers. She swam "against the grain" until???
Same situation in Mexico a few years back at the Boz Chen jump, where the team swam all the way down to the Paso de Lagato jump and the line ended and they turned and tried to make it back to Calimba, but came up short. There is probably a minimum of 20 or so Dorfs on that line, yet the team ignored every one of them. These guys were all full cave trained. How does this happen? One obvious answer is "stress and anxiety". Easy to say but not always easy to deal with in the heat of the battle. We all make bad decisions from time to time but most are recoverable. The wrong direction in a cave usually has a bad ending!
The sad fact of life is, when someone gets stressed, none of the usual cues can persuade them that they are going the wrong way. Even since goldline became the norm in the US, divers have strayed into side leads. Arrows are also ignored when a diver gets stressed. It is true you have to make a turn to follow the goldline exiting Orange Grove from Challenge, but if you aren't perceiving the clues, like a big jump, and line color changing, it is still possible to go into the distance tunnel. There was a fatality due to a stressed diver going the wrong way on the Peanut line after making a jump from the crossover tunnel. Neither the arrows, nor her buddy convinced her which way was out.
That Darwin works in mysterious ways.
Praise be to Darwin.
The victim got separated from the group by traversing down "old main line". That jump was only a few feet from the main line tied to a very large rock, and with the low viz, it was very easy to accidentally get on that line. The pity was the person was cavern certified and made a mistake that many full cave divers had made,but lacked the training to understand his mistake and get out. The solution to the problem was to cut that line way back so it couldn't be accidentally be jumped onto to. I also understand the accident referenced by the OP at the Distance tunnel, the line was closer to the main line in the Well area. I remember a handful of caves that had jumps that were as little as 6" away from the main line.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Wasn't a contributing cause to that accident was the team before them instead of using a jump line, pulled the main line over to the jump forming a temporary T, and when it was put back these guys went the wrong way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
Don't believe so Kelly. If you've been to Boz Chen, you know that when you are exiting that area you go down slope where the line ends and hopefully your jump reel is in place. The group was doing a photo shoot and the area to the Right of the gap reel is more or less a wall and not suitable for group shots. Swimming across the gap and to the left is a large alcove and this is where the group formed. Gap reel was pulled and did not play a part in the accident. After the photo shoot, one of the team obviously started swimming down the main line and everyone else followed suit. The main line in question makes a 90 degree turn at the Boz Chen jump. One leg goes back to the Calimba snap and gap ( or gap reel ) and the other leg of the 90 goes to the Paso de Lagato. It was really bad luck that the team picked the wrong side of line, however, as I mentioned earlier, they passed numerous Dorfs all the way until the lines ends. Numerous is key word here. From the Calimba snap and gap until the Boz Chen jump is maybe 100 feet or so and probably one or two Dorfs at best. How long does that take to swim? Not long! Swimming all the way down to the Paso de Lagato is a long haul. How could they not realize sooner that they had not come to the snap and gap? Now going back to your comments on another team using the snap and gap and then possibly pulling it. Could have happened but even if it did, the Calimba jump was well marked on the main line. At least it was the day after when my team did the same dive. So back to cave awareness and cave presence and "training" This team was all Full Cave certified. To swim all the way from Boz Chen to the Paso de Lagato without at least one team member questioning the route is almost beyond comprehension, yet it happened!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
No more snap and gaps at calamba anymore ps.
Probably a good thing. Margin for error is greater using this system ( in my opinion ) On the off chance that the snap and gap or gap reel is gone upon my teams return, I will look for my clothspin and probably a non directional marker placed by every team member! No chance of missing the way out!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
This accident happened in late 2004 and there are lots of pages here on the forum discussing what happened. One thing I failed to mention, is that this was a team of four. Two made it out and two did not. Given that two divers survived, we were able to arrive with a pretty clear picture as to what happened. I also think I'm correct in saying that at least two of the four had been on a Mexico trip previously. Having talked to the survivors and the group leader, it would appear that this was a typical Calimba fun dive without much complexity, yet having said that, two divers did not survive!
Agreed. We've discussed if we came across any snap and gaps in unfamiliar Mexican caves to skip using it and actually run our own line in a fashion that doesn't interfere with the snap and gap. Even with cookies in place I don't want to come back to a snap and gap changed by some poorly trained dummy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
You are right, I had to look it up but I am thinking of the accident April 2nd, 1995 at Sistema Naranjal -Cenote escondidoQuote:
Originally Posted by Brent