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If I would know how to start an anonymous thread. So that every post could not reveal the author to save a face and to educate us. I would ask you guys what were the most 3 serious in your opinion incidents that you have experienced on cave/sump trip?
Perhaps that would also show that our activity is not as extreme as media tries to present. Which in turn makes my wife stressed.
That is what the IRAP forum is for. If anyone wants to post anonymously, send the report to a moderator, and whey can post it under the name IRAP administrator.Quote:
Originally Posted by ARY
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/forum...-Project-(IRAP)
I never knew that was a "thing"... finally taking my Cavern Course this coming weekend, so no cave stories for me, but I really look forward to reading them.
Let us know how it goes, and good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaru
In no particular order, I'll get this started. Not going to throw anyone under the bus
I was SM diving a low flow rather dusty low area. I had discussed with a respected diver prior to going there. He said, "Jeff, you're going to stir up dust. Know that going in. When it gets bad, just stay still and let it clear. It got much worse than I thought. Because of all the potential snags above and below, I had to wait for what seemed like 90 minutes (probably 3 min) for it to clear enough before moving back out. Just focused on breathing slow and calmly.
I was number two in a two man team SM attempting to dive Shangrila. Apparently we choose the wrong entrance. Diver one went in and I became aware it was much tighter than what I wanted to deal with. He went out of sight and I stayed close to our entrance looking for signs of him flashing a distress sign. My stress was around "What would I do if I saw his light flashing a distress signal out at me?" Go after him or not. Fortunately, he came out.
Lastly, years ago I watched a buddy disappear into the far end of the skid row line without placing a jump. As he was in BM, there was soon a pretty good wall of silt forming between us. I tied in a jump, (as should have been done in the first place!) and slowly started waving my light as a beacon. After a minute, I OK'ed the line and went in after him. We were only about five feet apart before I could begin to make out his light coming back at me. I reversed and we exited on the line.
That said, I know there are folks that have been in deeper poop than this. But the worst I know is all I can reference.
The first incident was a confidence builder. I eventually went back there and made a successful transit.
The second and third were "post dive conversation starters". An interesting aspect of this topic will be how often were basic rules broken resulting in stressful situations as opposed to situations simply developing. Looking forward to seeing what else pops up.
Nice post ARY
I kinda was hoping to not only read near death but more "average" stats. Just more input from a normal dude of the cave crowd. I have a great sympathy to everyone who had a survival story but we have hundreds of cave divers who did not (yet hopefully) have it too bad. Hoping that an average picture would rather look maybe like a challenging sport but not a suicide mission.
From what I started to read though it is already very interesting (also what came in PM)!
Read all the IRAP reports. Most are "average" :-)
I have often wondered how many "near miss" type situations go unreported. I suspect there are as many lessons to be learned there as in the ones with casualties that spawn volumes of posts.
Recently on a sunday our dive at Ginnie was longer than expected. By the time we got out of the water and packed up we realized we wouldnt be able to make t to Alice's in time for fried chicken. It was touch and go for a while but we ended up switching to our backup and had a great burger at Loosey's b
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Made a dive trip to High Springs while my girl friend (now wife) stayed home. Promised to call her when I was out of the water. But my phone went dead (low battery) and had to drive 2 hr to hotel to call her. She was freaking out, thought I was dead. Almost got divorced before I got married.
I'm just saying... I'd read your book if you ever wrote one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
Swimming up to a good friend being pulled out of the cave on my Cave I graduation cave dive. Glad i went back underwater a day later (after i sobered up), otherwise going back into the caves would have been a lot more difficult.
as to personal oh #### moments, none yet and hope to keep it that way.
I have experienced 3 cave collapses, 1 face to face encounter with a big gator, struck by lightening, broken line on exit in a big river cave,buddy with double valve roll off in a bedding plane and unable to come to a quick rescue, and other stucks and etcs.....but always the most frightening near misses that came close to claiming my life has been the trips down I-75.
The only stressful story I've got is from a few weeks ago. I was tagging along on an intro class and had an equalization issue at around 18-20 feet in the Breakdown Room. Spent the whole swim out thinking I was going to blow my ear drum as I went down into the Peanut Tunnel and came back out to the surface.
My biggest oh no moment was when a drunk cut me off on I-95N at 3am on the way to cave country. When I swerved to avoid him, my car fishtailed, and I was drifting sideways down the highway at 80mph. I'm honestly surprised the car didn't roll...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Working out rock that fell into small entrance, rock falling on buddy trapping her legs down and ginnie on the weekend between 10-4 this time of year.
It's not stressful in the summer? :rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by mdax
My most frightening experiences have been in "dry" caves - do those count?
1. Dove and came out alive
2. Dove and came out alive
3. Dove and came out alive
So this means ALL your cave dives are stressful, and you only listed the top three? :rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by shellmoundal
I have been in a cave during an earthquake. It was not a stressfull dive, just really really strange one. It was during my cave class in Kao Sok NP. I was in front, using the reel to connect it from ow to the mainline. Then suddenly there was a strange current, really heavy. I grabbed a bit stalagtite to hold myself. My buddies where gone. Then the current went in a couple of seconds to the other side and the buddies came back. Debris falling from ceiling. The instructor showed where the line was and then we did our dive. No current, nothing.
After the dive the boatsman was in panic and shouted big wave, big wave. We where just thinking is is getting mad or something. On the way back there is a 'telephone signal spot' and the instructor was called by his wife if he was alive. Yes, what is wrong. There was an earthquake in Phang Nga, and that caused a big wave (tsunami) over the lake in kao sok. Several boats sunk. Ahhh, that was what happened when we where in the cave. As we didn't know what happened, there was no panic. :D
Sadly Kao sok is closed for diving since 2 divers died in caves there.
Further I have been stucked in a cave, and been lost in a wreck where I counted how many minutes I had to live if I could not find the exit of the wreck, I have been thinking if I would share air if my buddy runs out of gas and still been lost in a wreck. I have made there the most wrong decision if you follow the rules: if you just can save yourself, do it and do not try to save your buddy, better 1 diver alive than 2 dead. But I did, I shared gas in the wreck and happely we found in time the exit. So it was the best choice afterwards. I always use this example while teaching. We did not run a line over/in the wreck due to group pressure. It was not needed was said.
Oh Jumala Kristus... I guess my wife is right about cave diving - if cave and buddies won`t kill you the drunk driver on I-95 will.. I will add for a person who would keep ID private.
When there was no yet "paved parkin" at Friedman my buddy had to have an emergency exit up that sinkhole due to severe diarrhea call. At the time doubles were dropped in a mud and zipper was defeated his inner pressure already reached the burst disk limit. Acting quickly he found a raccoon hole and unloaded the black water tank into it. Unfortunately the hole was also a home for a healthy family of yellowjackets. He found out in a few minutes that it is not only freaking painful but he is also allergic to the bites. I had a cross country run in 98F weather to the main parking lot wearing unzipped drysuit before we finally evacuated.
Yes, that would be stressful!Quote:
Originally Posted by ARY
I guess so Forrest. LOL I did get a bolt of lighting while diving in Catfish 3 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Now that would be stressful!Quote:
Originally Posted by shellmoundal
Here's 3. In hindsight 1 real stressful situation and 2 minor inconveniences.
1. Prior to training I ventured into some great 'swim through' areas with a flashlight and no line.... about 20 minutes after leaving the light zone I tried covering my light to see how dark it was.... resulted in my most stressful cave dive to date exiting the silted up labyrinth while praying my light didn't fail me and I didn't forget a turn.
2. SM stuck in a crack when my primary light failed.
3. (Apologies to my instructor) but during full cave when my instructor did his disappearing act mid dive as part of training and I immediately concluded it wasn't a drill and age had given way to valor and he was dead somewhere and I'd lost a living legend and was left to find and bring him out.
I'll share a story from like 8 years ago. Details are as best as I remember them.
I was helping some friends of mine explore a tidally influenced spring right on the gulf a few years ago. The flow howls almost always, but we had a window where the flow was down during high tide.
We started off the day by putting in deco gas at 20, 70, and 120 which is just inside the cave maybe a hundred feet. There was a flow meter too, and that was just barely in the cave. Maybe the flow meter was at 100'? Anyways, the walls were covered in oyster shells so we wore leather work gloves to protect our hands when we pulled ourselves in against the flow. I'd say it was ginnie-ish flow, but pretty bad vis. 15ft or so.
This took us a few short dives to accomplish, but nothing crazy. 120 was nearly an open water dive. Other than the flow and oysters (and I had two left hand gloves. Thanks, Obama) it was a fairly benign setup.
So the two friends start their dive a bit before high tide when the flow is lowest, but one can't clear his ears past 70' and surfaces. His buddy waits down at 120 for a minute then sheds a few stages and a scooter and comes back up. They scrap the dive and hop out of the water. This leaves tanks down there and a scoot that we really don't want to leave in that place for maybe years. My buddy and I put our tanks back on and get ready to do a quick cleanup.
So we're down at 120 clipping on all the stuff and I'm noticing that we're being pulled into the cave! Not wild but it's clearly time to go. As we're heading out (and it's not far) the flow is getting stronger and stronger. I drop the scooter and stage and focus on making progress. Damn oyster shells are breaking off over and over and over and there's nothing else to pull on. The flow is now surpassing what we experienced earlier in the day but backwards. I could hear the flow. We're making terrible time. How far in are we? The line HAS to go up soon. Right? Finally we get to the flow meter and a loop of tubing snags my tanks. Stuck. Can't seem to shake it. I catch a glimpse of my buddy's SPG. Like 200psi. He's giving me the double thumbs and as much as I want to, I can't go anywhere. He can't see what I'm dealin with as the bay water is super dirty. One last shimmy and I'm free. We're both beatin' feet making way to the surface. No time for stops on the way up.
One of the exploration team put two and two together and realized we were way behind schedule. He threw his gear back on and was rocketing down to meet us. We passed him at 60' in open water. One track mind for us - get to the surface. We were both pulling the last breaths through the regs right as we broke the surface.
We just paused. Took a moment. Realized what almost happened. My buddy was white as a sheet and I'm sure I wasn't too different. Regs could be spun off without shutting off the valve. Out. Of. Gas. We walked on the razors edge that day and came out on the winning side. Literally any additional delay would have been the end of the road.
After some surface oxygen (precautionary) I took a picture of the spring from the dock. Trash was circling the vent like a slow whirlpool. It was unbelievable.
So here are my takeaways:
Don't start a dive with tanks that aren't full. Especially at new place. Bring extra sets or use stages leaving the main supply full.
Think of all the gear in the water as resources. The gas in the water wasn't "mine" so I didn't have the mindset to count it as an option. Obviously in hindsight we should have kept the gas with us and used it immediately.
Ask others for info on new sites. Someone has probably been there before. Ask! It turns out that a good handful of people knew of this caves tendency to reverse. It they assumed we all knew about it since it was such common knowledge. If this had happened when the exploration team was underway (at 240ft plus) the dive almost certainly would not have ended positively.
That's my most stressful dive. Hopefully it's a helpful story and gets gears turning about planning, resource management, and setup/ support procedures. Nothing else in my diving career has happened thats worth writing about.
Great advice related to your story!Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Something doesn't rhyme here. Unless the first team went in well before high tide, the second team should have been pushed OUT, not IN ???Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
It shifted right as we headed in for the final cleanup dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Were y'all there 6 hours? It would be that long between reversals.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Flow only went 2 directions while we were there. Flowing until high tide when it reversed and became a siphon.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I guess we were on site for 3hrs or so.
That must be a strange cave. Most tidally influenced caves siphon until high tide, then flow out right after high tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Yeah it's wild. My hypothesis is that there's some sort of latency due to salt/fresh interface and complexity of the passageways.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
July spring I think it is called in Ginnie system is not recommended at certain times. I don't know when that is, but I was there one of those times...
Care to elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by wiley1
Maybe he's trying to say avoid diving Ginnie any time in July... pretty understandable. Lol
There is a July spring. It is choked out and not able to get to through the surface,like P2. When approaching this spring from the cave system, the flow can become a strong syphon when Devil's system is flowing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaru
It depends entirely on how the cave is plumbed and what other features it might connected to. I'm working on a few caves in the Bahamas where the spring flow does not seem to be directly connected to the water level in the lakes. My advice to anyone diving caves with a strong tidal influence would be to stick a flow meter and a water level logger in them for a while before planning any dives.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
When does it become dangerous though? The flow has been pretty constant every time I went in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Mostly when the river is dropping fast, and the aquifer is well charged. A week or so ago was a good example, The Ear was blowing so hard that you had to pull on the wall while on a scooter, and some people's backup regs freeflowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by inverted_bear
Damn, I didn't even notice the higher flow. I must have had so much less gear than my typical scooter dive that it felt normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
While going through the lips my buddy ran out of air. I handed him my backup regulator. Next thing I know he rips my reg out my mouth.
After a few milliseconds of panic I figure out he put the backup reg in his mouth upside down and was unable to get any air. I rectified the
situation and exited the cave safely.
Siphon was really strong that day. Imagine going into the flow like normal, gentle frog kick, maybe some pull and glide, nice day for a cave dive. Let's take a left here, and another left. Hmmm, this is nice, I'm hardly kicking...look , I'm going faster and faster, wait, I can't slow down. I see light, maybe We can exit here....Nope, tiny crack. There's no kicking against that current. Pull on the cave wall, regs are free flowing, Uh-oh, this is bad. I have to help my wife against the flow, cause she's not making it. It was that kind of bad.
I had that happen in OW (luckily). One of my students handed his reg to his OOA buddy (a drill) upside down. The OOA guy took a breath of mostly water, and bolted to the surface, dragging me along with him. I guess he exhaled into the reg enough, that he didn't get an embolism. I learned a heck of a lot that day, so did the students.Quote:
Originally Posted by perryL927
That reminds me of another stressful dive. I was working up to becoming a Hart guide. I was with a "mentor guide". We went in the Black Lagoon, and downstream towards Hart spring, which in blocked to anything as big as a diver. The line ended at a vertical restriction. Instead of turning around, I went to look at the restriction, and got sucked into it. Lucky for me that I didn't fit, but I was pinned by the flow. I looked back at my guide, and all I could see was bubbles, he was laughing so hard. After wriggling a bit, I realized the only way to get free was to roll away from the siphon. Once I did that, I was good, but it was still quite a swim for a short distance.Quote:
Originally Posted by wiley1
plus the dive at hart with us, forrest.
we did upstream and back to little hart, then the traverse to hart. well, no-####-there-we-were with the line flapping in the flow. and we hadn't changed tanks.
forrest told us to hold and tied off and went looking for the rest of the line. larry spent the next few minutes calculating how much time we could spend there before we had to haul ass back against the flow to get out on the gas we had - about 5 minutes. thank goodness forrest came back pretty quickly and tied the broken line and we exited without problems.
another fun dive was in the sidemount tunnel in kitty, to the left. larry was leading and pulling line out of the silt. he pulled up a T he couldn't see, as the T happened to attach to the line just behind his elbow. i cookied it. when we got back to it, his eyes were enormous because it was a nav decision he didn't remember. plus the aliens who put the T in also put one of my cookies on it, the devious bastages.
then my personal worst dive, when my dump valve string (behind my shoulders) got caught and my wing wasn't holding air and i couldn't figure it out and couldn't fix my awful buoyancy and spent most of the dive crying. yes, just like puking, you can sob into a reg.
That was Black Lagoon, upstream a little, back to Black Lagoon, then downstream to Little Hart.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyDuck
It wasn't very stressful to me, since I knew the way out. Besides all we had to do was follow the flow :-) Mostly, I wanted to fix the line.
BTW, since then we put in a 1/2" rope where that line was broken. It can be used as a pull line for people entering from Little Hart.
i wasn't stressed either. i had perfect confidence i was getting out.
thanks for the place name corrections!
Back in the day, early in my diving career, and on air, getting narced out in Eagles Nest one night to the point of seemingly losing consciousness. I thought I was kicking towards the surface, but my buddies later told me I was just hanging on the line not moving. I guess that is one way to call a dive.