The future of cave diving . .

I was talking with a couple of people last night listening to their cave diving stories. And it got me to thinking about the future of cave diving and where it might be heading - if anywhere.

This is an open ended question and I'm not really sure where it will lead. Where do you think cave diving will be in 10 years?

In business, we know there are some industries whose opportunities peak rather quickly, the market then becomes saturated with product, the market matures, and death follows.

Cave diving has only really been around for about 40 years. But my perception of cave diving is that it reached its peak in the late 80's - mid 90's. This seems to be when a lot of the big names got bigger, exploration was at its peak, the political climate between factions was at its strongest, technological innovations were exponential, and procedures like mixed gas were being refined. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm a late bloomer, not coming into cave diving till 99.

Look where we are today. We've become a law-suit happy society where everyone is afraid to open up their dive sites, KP has begun loosing ground, technology looks more like "bigger mousetrap syndrome", there's very little virgin cave to explore, agencies are working together a little more, new big names don't really seem to be rising to the top, and experienced cave diving seems to be doing the mile run in peacock for the 100th time.

Back in the day, it was interesting to hear about dive incidents of the great names. But today we hear stroke 1 dives with stroke 2 who kills stroke 3. Today, everybody's a "stroke".

I guess my question is this - has cave diving reached its maturity and will it begin to die in 10 year's time?

Just something to ponder. I don't have a lot of facts to base my perceptions. I may be wrong. I genuinely hope so. I love cave diving and hope there are enough pieces of the pie for all who wish to put forth the effort to be the best at it they can.

What do you think?

As a newer cave diver, I would say that the lack of "virgin" cave passages is of little importance because almost all of them are new to me and the excitement and satisfaction derived from a successful dive is not diminished because lots of divers have been there before. Secondly, there certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of younger people taking cavern and introductory cave courses or any lack of activity at the popular caves, so no I don't see cave diving disappearing any time soon.

All of the caves will be dried up in 10 years. Anybody want to take me on in 'King of the Hill' on that big rock in the Florida Room at LR?

If Florida continues to grow as rapidly as it has with a similar level of incompetence when it comes to management I expect that the aquifer will be bled dry.

It will be interesting when a group of school kids can hike to the Flag room in Diepolder and read a plaque about mythical "cave divers".

Of course, soon thereafter, global warming will fill it all in with sea water.

;-)

In the next 10 years the rebreathers will be cheaper and more widely spread. Improvements on technology and procedures will happen.

This will lead to cave diving (and other diving) being long dives on RB's, for miles. A computer in one chip, native environmental shielding, self powered (bio powered) for 20 years. No more failures, now more floodings. Realtime monitoring of tissue loading perhaps.... well maybe in 25 years!

The sky is the limit... the question is who is going to spearhead this, is there a market, what is the market willing to bear? The technology is here......

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Originally Posted by aw

there's very little virgin cave to explore,

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There's plenty to explore, you just haven't looked under the right rocks !!!

Yes -- the new Dive Rite five hundred dollar kit includes: dual-sidemounted rebreatherS, each simultaneously working at 1/2 capacity feeding a full face mask, voice communications with all team members and comms to surface support. The Skilescan will be permanently mounted in your heads up display and will have many new tertiary functions, including laser vision and infrared capabilities. Tired of lugging heavy scooters around? The New and improved Self-propelling/venting/heating drysuit will eliminate the need for condoms, undergarments and dpvs.

Just thought I'd share a glimpse into Dive Rite's future the way I see it

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Originally Posted by nic160

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Originally Posted by aw

there's very little virgin cave to explore,

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There's plenty to explore, you just haven't looked under the right rocks !!!

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Plus, cave diving is really just ramping up internationally. I expect there will be an increasing number of major expeditions in southeast asia, central america, and possibly some of the freshly exposed antarctic.

Very interesting question. I've been cave diving for 13 years and have seen a significant change in the sport. When I started, I was fortunate enough to be a part of several exploration projects that involved many cave divers and made some great friends as a result. Mentalities were very different 10-12 years ago. The big group seperation was whether you breathed the long hose or short hose and whether you but-mounted your light or not. There was also a drive to improve technology, skills, and knowledge for exploration purposes.

Today, there are many cave divers, which is great, but there seems to be a trend towards just enjoying cave dives as opposed to a drive to explore, which is also fine. The explorers today are some of the same people who were exploring 10 years ago. Today, the efforts to find new cave or passage is much more difficult and time consuming and expensive, which eliminates many people very quickly.

I think cave diving will survive just fine (as long as we don't pump the ground dry), but the emphasis will be on pleasure cave diving as opposed to exploration and discovery. With tighter restrictions on places to dive and developer encroachment, there will be less places to dive, which may slow the sport some. I also think that many will eventually get out of the sport because they dove all the caves they can and look to find something else to challenge them, BUT there will be new cave divers to take their place, which will keep the sport alive for many years to come.

Dave Miner
www.divingindepth.com

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Originally Posted by nic160

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Originally Posted by aw

there's very little virgin cave to explore,

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There's plenty to explore, you just haven't looked under the right rocks !!!

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That is very true.

Through the latter half of the 70s and first half of the 80s I attempted to be a competitive bodybuilder. I started with marginal genetics for gaining muscle mass. Over the years I learned to train hard and to train smart. Steroids became the normal suppliment from high school level competitions to the pros for so many competitors. I avoided their use for all but 3 months over a 7 year period. I left the sport in 83 realizing that no amount of training would make me competitive with the genetically gifted on steriods. It was a very hard pill to finally swallow. Several years later, I feel in love with cave diving although I had done some intro level dives in the mid and late 70s. I was careful to enter the realm of cave diving, meaning not to chase after the end of the line or records other than my personal best within my training and comfort zones. I tried (and still do) to perfect my skills and knowledge of the cave.

So, I guess it comes down to what will motivate people to cave dive. I will have plenty of cave to explore 10 years from now. It may have been explored by someone else already but not by me. My philosophy is, UNTIL I SEE IT, I DON'T CONSIDER IT EXPLORED.

I have seen cave divers come into the sport, dive to the EOL in the main systems and then they are gone to the next sport.

For those who choose to hang in there with me I present the following from - - - -Robert Browning

Grow old along with me!
The best is yet to be.
The last of life, for which the first was made.

:) Well, said! I agree 100%. Until I've seen all of the cave systems I can't say that they have been "explored"; and I have a long way to go and a lot of cave to explore in my lifetime, I hope. The question everyone asks me (those who do not cave dive) is "why do I cave dive"? I tell them because in every cave it's like looking at the Grand Canyon for the first time for me. Oh yeah and I never think about work while I'm doing it. I sure hope that it will be around for a very long time yet. To me it's my break from the every day grind of work, bills, deadlines, coworkers, schedules, work travel, customers, etc.

I just hope I have all my gear paid off in ten years...

Brian

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

I just hope I have all my gear paid off in ten years...

Brian

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I'll never have my gear paid off. I'll be poor for life! I'll be rich in my memories and happy with a roof over my head. Ok, I have to make enough to feed the cats. :D

Maybe I'm an optimist. I think cave diving will be here as long as any other sport that requires people actually have to get off a couch. It will change radically. Gear will change, dive sites will improve, training will change, it will be more of a common sport. We see more divers daily and in the short time I have been diving it's developing problems like pressure on the sites we do have, changes in training philosophy and look how many dang agencies there are now. The web is having an incredable effect on Cave Diving and our daily lives. I wish I could say it was always a good one.

Exploration. Still plenty out there! Even more made available daily with the sale of the larger land sections for development. Communication with agencies and land owners will become even more important to keep new caves from damage and press on with the discovery of new ones. Just because you don't see the new caves posted on every web site doesn't mean that a lot of exploration isn't going on. Exploration has not decreased. There is just such a jump in what most people refer to as recreational or non survey related cave diving that the people who do explore tend to be ignored, debated to death so they quit posting or just too busy to post.

I hope to be around to see some of the changes. I hope I can muster the tolerance to watch some of the bad and the clarity of mind to help with the good. I plan on writing as much of it down as possible. Cindy Butler

Cavedivenut said just the right thing When I cave dive I don't think about work or stress at home or bills. I just enjoy the cave and work on skills and try yo be clean.

Curt

there is deffinetly unexplored cave out there. the reason people get upset and think this isnt true is because you cannot just drive down I75, pull off on the side of the road and jump into virgin cave. if it was that easy everything would have been explored. I know first hand, and I know alot of people on here can relate, that if you wanna find new cave your gonna have to get out there and get dirty. and isnt that most of the fun after all?

i also think that the future of cave diving gear wise will be rebreathers, but i think we will find a way to make them smaller, last longer, and not carry such a hefty price tag. it seems that progession means price drops, smaller in size, and longer burn times. look at the evolution of the dive light in the last 10 years.

Except they have gone up in price. :-D

I think what aw saw as a peak is more of a stable plateau. So much has happened since then that I don't see how anyone can label it as a decline from what was. Technology has improved ans continues to do so. The big names are not as prevelant these days simply because the sport has grown so much; individual accomplishment does not stand out as much in a large crowd as it does in a smaller group. There are still caves to be explored, you only have to get out there and look for them. Hell, over 2000ft of new line was laid in Hole in the Wall just recently and more tunnels are just waiting to be lined. Virgin caves do exist, they just are not sitting out in plain sites like the ones we have become accustomed to througth commercialization. I think cave diving will continue to grow as technology continues to improve and people start realizing just how vital a fresh water supply is.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

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Originally Posted by nic160

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Originally Posted by aw

there's very little virgin cave to explore,

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There's plenty to explore, you just haven't looked under the right rocks !!!

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That is very true.

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***I've seen some of my cave diving friends {including my own younger brother} throw in the rag, and yet today, I've made so many new friends, some of which I've logged dives with over the past year, & the spirit still lives on. I have friends some 15 or 20 years younger than I, who are so over-weight & out of shape that they will never get into diving at all. Then along comes Matt 'The Dreamer' Johnston who instills a new confidence in all of us. I've crossed wires with certain explorers whom I would have cherished learning from & taking lessons with, yet I still respect their goals, & only hope that they continue doing what they do best: Cave dive & Exploring. It is said that the Florida Aquifer is a virtual ocean of passageways, deep below our good earth, and is only a stones throw away from being discovered. Give us the tools & equipment to find them, & our spirits will lead our way to them. As long as there is a Dive Outpost {& Cathy} in Luraville, where we can sit around roaring fires in the dead of winter, roast marshmellows, drink good wine & booze, {& coffee} and tell our stories of this new 'window' or that new 'Jump', then we should never have to worry about losing sight of our cave explorations. It is in the very air that we breath, which carrys us to new horizons.
Tegg, Titan, Jordan, Lee, Bill, Sludge, Wingman, Cindy, Brian, FW, & a host of others............the fun has just begun-!

JE 8)

I see two competing forces here.

1. Reality .vs. fantasy-land thinking. There's a lot of the latter and we need to get to the former. Reality means dealing with the fact that this is an "extreme sport" in that if something goes wrong 100' in and you can't breathe (say much less 15,000' in!) you're screwed. Yes, we all take backup for that eventuality, but the highest failure rate item in our kit is our brain, and next is our body. We can't solve either of those problems, although there are plenty who claim we can. This has led to policy positions that IMHO are pure exhibitions of boneheaded-ness, some of which is driven by profit and some by just a flat refusal to deal with issues logically.

This is a potentially-severe problem because once one sets the bar of "acceptable rates of risk" someone else gets to calibrate the scale. As soon as you say that something can be done "safely", someone else defines what that is and means. Eventually the statistics pile up and you get called out on your (lack of) performance, and then wham - doors start slamming shut. You've been hoist on your own petard, and its too late to protest.

To a large degree this has happened in the past. I predict that cave diving is dangerously close to this tipping point NOW in a second wave, and that one could endanger most of the public access we now enjoy, with the probable exception of access to caves on navigable waterways by boat. This, ironically, means that CEE (for example) ends up needing to set up a ponton boat rental department! But for many if not most of the existing land-access sites, this development would be very bad news. It is simply a matter of time before it happens unless divers start thinking this stuff through and insisting that agencies and organizations to which they belong start singing from a very, very different hymnal than they have up until now.

2. Equipment. I see strides here. Basic OC gear hasn't changed in 20 years+. But CCRs are evolving. These have been considered "specialty" gear for a very long time, have been radically overpriced and treated as "something scary." They're not. Indeed, RBs predate OC and there's an argument to be made that they're SAFER, especially in an overhead environment. Did you just have a siltout? So? You have three HOURS to find your way out instead of 15 minutes. Is it still a big deal that for the moment you can't see?

Part of my reason for deciding to build the K1 is to put a finger in the eye of those who have held what I view as a bankrupt position on these things and screamed it from the rafters, as well as trying to force what I see as a bankrupt business model associated with it down the throats of divers at their considerable expense. If I'm right - and I'm pretty sure I am - there's a product here as well. Yeah, this will make some people squirm. Good. That sort of change - an eCCR that, minus tanks and first stages, comes in under $5k with a "buy it off the rack; the only card you need is Visa, Master Card or Discover" philosophy - will change diving in a major way.

But if we don't fix (1), as divers, we all may need to buy boats.

Fortunately I already have one.

Have you ever been to Florida Caverns State Park in Marianna? It is a "dry cave" state park, not so different from Peacock, Manatee, etc. If we don't convince the state of FL that we (cave divers) are concerned for conservation in the UW state parks, they may adopt the same "rules" for the UW parks that they have in Marianna.

For those that have never been there, the only way to see the cave is with a guide :(

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Originally Posted by FW

Have you ever been to Florida Caverns State Park in Marianna? It is a "dry cave" state park, not so different from Peacock, Manatee, etc. If we don't convince the state of FL that we (cave divers) are concerned for conservation in the UW state parks, they may adopt the same "rules" for the UW parks that they have in Marianna.

For those that have never been there, the only way to see the cave is with a guide :(

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Forrest you are absolutely right. Many people I think to chose to ignore the writing on the wall,but I have seen more interest in this area by the state in the last year than I've ever seen. We as the cave diving community need to be very proactive in this area,and not leave it to the other guy to worry about. The thesis statement of cave diving in the future-public access continued but with restrictions applied by land owners.

I don't see the state agencies in an advisarial relationship with Cave Divers. There is a lot of work to be done with any non-cave diving group and it will take well seasoned and motivated men like Kelly and Forrest to keep that going. You can't force anyone into keeping caves open. We are a very small minority in the big scheme of things. By providing information and working with the state like the teams of cave divers now doing that type of work (WKPP,Old Bellamy, Peacock CSO, the Dive Rite team and KTE) we can show how much of a resource cave divers can be and get closed caves open to as many as possible. Like Kelly said we need to continue to work with these people to get things done. The future is there for us to form our relationships in, we can either fight with people or co-operate with people, work in conjunction with these agencies and educate every chance we get. I happen to think the later works better, Cindy Butler

One of the things that seem to affect our work at access is that there are few set rules within the agencies that govern access. While I abhor more government involvement in my life I get very frustrated when one of the groups makes great headway with the current manager of a given location. Suddenly this manager gets transferred, promoted or fired, what have you and the process has to start all over again. It boggles the mind that local managers have so much control over a public resource.
We have shown at Manatee, Peacock, and Madison Etc. that we as a group are good stewards of the UW cave resources, (there are exceptions out there I know). Wouldn't it be in our best interest to sit down with the high level powers that be and show them as a unified group that we can continue to be good stewards and work hand in hand to preserve both the above and below ground aspects of the State held lands? There has been MUCH discord among this group over this aspect of our sport, “ssshhh don’t talk about it you’ll ruin it” Peoples feeling have been hurt over it. I hate this. What is the ultimate goal? To explore new and interesting cave systems and preserve the existing systems for the future and to educate those that expresses an interest in what lies below their feet.
How many of you have talked to a “Local” and answered the question “What’d you see down thar in that hole” This guy might not look like much but he might be the son or brother of some county official, who knows. This is part of our stewardship. The locals are part of the resource and those relationship must be protected too if we are to continue our sport. This started as a question of “where will cave diving be in ten years” I believe we all have a good idea of the future and can see technology is going to play a large role. But the biggest factor we as a group can affect is access. We can ensure access by presenting a unified front with logical arguments, without snipping each other. We need to join with other fringe users of the resource (campers, mountain bikers and dry cavers etc.) to show we are not a threat to the resource by virtue of our activity, (cave divers don’t sue).
Anyway, a long winded comment with a short message, JOIN together! How did it go?
“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately!”

Curt

Curt, I believe this once again comes back to "first principles".

In order to "hang together" we must first define what we're trying to achieve and have consensus in that realm.

This is why I believe we need a sea change in how we look at cave diving - and we need to present this as a united front to everyone.

As divers, we need to present that we:

1. Are aware of the risks and choose to go anyway because we perceive a personal reward that is worth the risks.
2. Insist that our private decision to do so be just as respected as is the private decision of two consenting adults to engage in "adult activities" behind a closed door, even though the consequence of that activity may be debilitation or death.
3. That we understand and respect the issues surrounding liability and we want a permanent solution for those issues via a one-sentence addition to the "Sportsman Act" (and its companion in the FAC related to parkland). Until such is made we are willing to sign whatever waiver(s) are necessary to give landowners (including the state) precisely the same protections that should be ensconced in statute.
4. That we WILL use our economic and political power to the benefit of those agencies and organizations that respect this point of view, and likewise, WILL punish those who refuse.

Adopting this posture means the end of the "dive club" mentality that many have. It also means a major sea change in how agencies and instructors market themselves.

None of this can come from the top down. It can only come from the bottom up, when divers decide, as a group, that they simply will not tolerate anything less.

Without this sea change IMHO you better get yourself a boat - and even that may not be good enough, as the direction that has been adopted by these organizations over the last couple of decades could easily be pushed a bit further to erase THAT form of freedom as well - at least for caves.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Cavedivenut said just the right thing When I cave dive I don't think about work or stress at home or bills. I just enjoy the cave and work on skills and try yo be clean.

Curt

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Funny how that works he? My mind is 'empty' when I cave dive too, just me, my buddy and equipment is what I always say