Failure to ask the right questions.

A lady I know wanted to make a dive. She had learned to dive in Missouri, probably before the advent of gold line. She said she was a "trained cave diver" and I didn't think to ask what level. I later found out she was only Intro.

Four of us did the Grand Tour at Devil's Eye. I placed a jump at the Park Bench to the Bone Room line. I had briefed everyone before the dive, and told them if we weren't to the Maple Leaf before they hit thirds, to turn the dive.

Everything seemed to be going fine. We got to the end of the Bone Room line, and I had them hold the end of a spool, while I went across to the Maple Leaf, then I "reeled them in". We all headed toward the entrance. After a couple hundred feet, The lady signaled to turn the dive. I gave her the "this way our" hand signal, but she still was frantically thumbing the dive. I looked at her SPG, and she was well past thirds, meaning she hadn't been checking her SPG. She still had plenty of gas to get out. I showed her the gold line, and an arrow showing the way out. She still insisted on turning back upstream. This also meant she was ignoring the current, and had forgotten we pulled the jump reel at the Maple Leaf. I literally had to follow her upstream, and tackle her to turn her back toward the exit. She finally gave up fighting, and went sort of limp, like a dove in a dog's mouth, and followed us out.

What I learned is to ask more specific questions, and probably check turn pressure of people I haven't dive with before.

Scary

- Jeff

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Scary

- Jeff

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True! There was an accident in Peacock a couple years when nobody could convince an Intro diver that they were on the shortest way out. The victim turned back, but they had already pulled the jump reel, so she went right past the way they had come in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

True! There was an accident in Peacock a couple years when nobody could convince an Intro diver that they were on the shortest way out. The victim turned back, but they had already pulled the jump reel, so she went right past the way they had come in.

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I found the analysis of that accident: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ity-at-Peacock

Post #14

Is "reeling them in" a common practice? is it taught in cave class now?
is it safe?
See you in the Silt-Ray

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Originally Posted by Ray Boutilier

Is "reeling them in" a common practice? is it taught in cave class now?
is it safe?
See you in the Silt-Ray

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I don't know if it's taught in cave class but many people do it. If your not going back that way there's no reason to keep it in. Then you pick up the other one on the way out. That's the reasoning of people I know. Doesn't mean it's gold standard. [emoji3]


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Sounds like it should have been two dives? I my cave course if I remember correctly, if you were doing a traverse you would mark the spot on the line with a cookie when you "hit thirds", swim back the way you came then go from the second direction to ensure the path is clear and safe to make the traverse. I guess that's why they would do that so people could see the path for themselves instead of trust me dive.
I could be totally reading this thread wrong but my first thought was that this sounded like a trust me dive.

What do I know though, I'm just a vacation diver... :-D




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Originally Posted by Garth

Sounds like it should have been two dives? I my cave course if I remember correctly, if you were doing a traverse you would mark the spot on the line with a cookie when you "hit thirds", swim back the way you came then go from the second direction to ensure the path is clear and safe to make the traverse. I guess that's why they would do that so people could see the path for themselves instead of trust me dive.
I could be totally reading this thread wrong but my first thought was that this sounded like a trust me dive.

What do I know though, I'm just a vacation diver... :-D




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Thays how its supposed to be done but then theres shades of grey from "reeling th team in" to full on blind jumps. On top of that I was taught thumbing the dive trumps it all. So the way I was taught? Eventhough the gold line out may be faster, she thumbed the dive and wanted to go back the way she knew so she theoretically shouldnt have been coerced to follow the leader. She was most comfortable with what she had already proven to be a continuous guideline to the surface. Eventhough the gold line was faster and continuous she hadnt confirmed it. So yes this was a trust me dive.
Of course there will be 80 opinions in it. Some are 100% by the book, some are ok bending what they were taught by reeling the group in or whatnot, and others think you're a wimp if you wont just do a quick blind jump tp gold line.


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It ended ok. I'm sure or hopefully sure they discussed it afterwards.
The group I dive with, we discuss the plan including pulling the reel. If someone is not ok with that or comfortable we do something else or leave the reel in. The plan has to be ok with everyone. Also theses are dives we have done before which makes a big difference.
Like you said there will be 80 or more opinions [emoji3]


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Can you give us the details on the dive debrief?

Except, from reading the description, she was already well into her 2nd third and attempting to go against the flow. Going back wasn't an option (or at least not a safe one).

I guess it also depends a lot how much you have dove the system.
To understand how much residual gas is needed to get out from specific point along the grand tour in Ginnie is fairly easy accomplished with very few dives..
So from that perspective I can understand the reeling in practice.
But yes, for her it was a trust me dive especially the forced "shorter" exit..
Situational awareness was not great as well though as she should have been complaining the moment the continuous line from the way in was removed..

When I did the tour the first time, I had insisted that we leave reels in (we did the tour with scooter so not a very long dive after all) and then simply do the same dive again but reverse, when we would pull the reels, because exit then would have been verified..

The buddy I dove with was not extremely happy with the proceeding and would have preferred to pull right away, but it also took not a lot of discussion to do it that way..

I don't think the reeling them in is something taught/condoned in the cave classes, but it is fairly common practice for better or for worse. If the gold line was verified recently *within the previous several days*, then I have 0 issues doing a blind jump back onto gold. We don't actually use a reel, but one diver will "jump" and once he's over, flag the others to come over.
This was definitely a weird scenario since thirds had been broken and the diver in question wasn't familiar with the system etc etc, but had I been in that situation, I wouldn't have let her go back into the flow for the route back

Good discussion. My first thought is, the diver should have said something about his or her capabilities!

What kind of questions would have captured that this could become an issue?

1 - Have you done a circuit before?

I had a similar incident many years ago. A very experienced cave diver and I went into Devils, the main line was just past the Keyhole then, we went up to what was the Hill 400 jump, and jumped onto the Hill 400 line using my trusty fly fishing reel. There was no gold line, no arrows at that time, just clothespins. For whatever reason, my partner put the clothespin on the wrong side of the jump. On exit, he insisted that you had to turn left to exit, I put the jump in, and I knew we jumped left to get into the Hill 400 tunnel. We had a interesting few exchanges of notes on a slate, I showed him the direction of flow, but he was convinced that he put the pin in correctly. By now, we were getting to less than 1/2 air and had only back gas, and finally, I told him to follow me for 5 minutes and if we did not get to the cornflakes, we would turn around. He finally agreed, and we swam out. You have no idea how many people, experienced people, are around today because of gold line and arrows. (Thanks Forrest)

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

...You have no idea how many people, experienced people, are around today because of gold line and arrows. (Thanks Forrest)

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The gold line was Lamar, not me.

The OP said the diver saw the gold line, and the arrows, so they didn't seem to convince her.

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Originally Posted by Ray Boutilier

Is "reeling them in" a common practice? is it taught in cave class now?
is it safe?
See you in the Silt-Ray

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If I'm reading this correctly it's discussing the big room circuit, and placing a jump at the park bench on your way in makes the jump at the maple leaf a jump from one line to the exit to another line to the exit.


I don't even think "reeling them in" or using a spool at all would be necessary there unless the vis is blown. You can see the gold line from the start of the bone line.


That part of the dive logistic sounds legit for full cave divers that are familiar with the route. (The first time someone dives it, it should be done in two dives as Garth pointed out.) The part about the certification level and the turn pressures? not so much.

Does anyone think that this intro diver would have been invited on this dive or participated in it had she been equipped in a single tank w/ h-valve?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmint

If I'm reading this correctly it's discussing the big room circuit, and placing a jump at the park bench on your way in makes the jump at the maple leaf a jump from one line to the exit to another line to the exit.


I don't even think "reeling them in" or using a spool at all would be necessary there unless the vis is blown. You can see the gold line from the start of the bone line.


That part of the dive logistic sounds legit for full cave divers that are familiar with the route. (The first time someone dives it, it should be done in two dives as Garth pointed out.) The part about the certification level and the turn pressures? not so much.

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Just to play devil's advocate here. But doing a jump to the gold line as you discussed can be perceive as a degradation of basic learned safety procedures. While I would say that its a very benign "blind jump" it is still complacency. So it can be assumed that complacency breeds further complacency.

So while yes, it can be agreed upon that its a very benign act, it is still complacent. Why not place the jump and leave it. We all know ginnie's not likely to get blown. But what if some untrained scooter diver breaks the gold line in his prop? Obviously this is very unlikely.

I'm not giving my opinion, just giving the counterpoint that though benign, it is still complacency no matter how you slice it. "Reeling your buddies in" isnt on the list of safe cave diving practices because it breaks the cardinal rule of continuous guidline of a known safe exit.


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big power full brand new scooter and a new cave diver and some gold line...where did the gold line go it was there yesterday?!?

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Originally Posted by Ray Boutilier

big power full brand new scooter and a new cave diver and some gold line...where did the gold line go it was there yesterday?!?

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I would hope that if someone broke the gold line, they would know it, and patch it with a spool if necessary.

@rddvet
so I hear you on devil's advocate, but I have to vehemently disagree. Simple question. You do the circuit "properly" meaning you go in on the gold line side, tie into the bone room and place your cookie on dive 1. Dive 2 you tie into the bone line, and run up per normal, pull your reel and right before you come around the corner the line is severed. What do you do? Odds are you don't have enough gas to turn around and go all the way back out and you verified that line 2 hours ago but some idiot went in, severed the line and didn't fix it. You already pulled your jump reel so you now don't have any continuous line back to the surface even though you followed proper protocols for a circuit.
How is this different vs. the original dive plan?

I'd argue that this plan is fine in my book, granted I'd be a hypocrite if it wasn't. Is it something that is taught or should be taught in cave class? No, but that doesn't make it complacent, and I'd argue that this dive plan is no less safe than if they had properly followed circuit procedures based on continuous guideline. Based on gas planning, you still have to do the proper procedure unless you have done the dive before, or based on accurate maps and assumptions you are carrying adequate gas reserves

put the jump in and just leave it there, abandoning it? letting it become a tee for someone else to remove?


eh, sometimes you have to use your brain and not your training when common sense disagrees with rote dogma or the situation just isn't covered explicitly in class or manual.


I don't remember the exact quote but Jim Wyatt said once that there's an exception out there to every rule in the manual.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

@rddvet
so I hear you on devil's advocate, but I have to vehemently disagree. Simple question. You do the circuit "properly" meaning you go in on the gold line side, tie into the bone room and place your cookie on dive 1. Dive 2 you tie into the bone line, and run up per normal, pull your reel and right before you come around the corner the line is severed. What do you do? Odds are you don't have enough gas to turn around and go all the way back out and you verified that line 2 hours ago but some idiot went in, severed the line and didn't fix it. You already pulled your jump reel so you now don't have any continuous line back to the surface even though you followed proper protocols for a circuit.
How is this different vs. the original dive plan?

I'd argue that this plan is fine in my book, granted I'd be a hypocrite if it wasn't. Is it something that is taught or should be taught in cave class? No, but that doesn't make it complacent, and I'd argue that this dive plan is no less safe than if they had properly followed circuit procedures based on continuous guideline. Based on gas planning, you still have to do the proper procedure unless you have done the dive before, or based on accurate maps and assumptions you are carrying adequate gas reserves

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That's why I said devil's advocate. A million ways to look at it. At the same time, what you describe as a "proper" circuit isn't what was done in this example. They didn't go half way to confirm that their gas exiting via the gold line would be as sufficient as exiting the way they came. So therefore it was a trust me dive 100% of the way. So I guess using your example above, it can be seen as "more OK" than the example by the OP considering no understanding by all divers in the team of their gas requirements. In your example at least the team has an understanding of gas requirements.

Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate. In reality I don't have a huge issue at all with "reeling people in" although I personally do it differently or even a planned blind jump that was agreed upon at the surface by a team that dives that particular part of the cave regularly and knows it well. But this is an argument that comes up among my group of friends regularly. Some that I've had this discussion with literally argue that blind jumps are OK because that's what "people with alot of experience do all the time" which isn't a valid argument. Others feel as I do that it is not the smartest idea but there are grey zones of it being OK. And then there's the staunch proponent of doing it as described in class and only that way because 99% of examples of blind jumps or "reeling people" is done to complacency. Usually people not wanting to pull jumps or do set up dives, not the fake scenarios of broken lines which rarely happens.

I know, I was just saying the full rationale behind why I would have no problem doing it.

What is your procedure for "reeling in"?

also, based on the maps, I would have no problem doing that dive as planned in one go. Rough approximations say that the gold line jump is roughly equidistant back to the surface and it's with the flow, so I would be OK. I would make sure I had big enough tanks and may make it like thirds+2, but I'd be ok doing it without following circuit procedure. That's for me, based on my experience and comfort though...

if anybody on that team had a problem after that last jump and that gal had to get out of there on her own against the flow, or, god help her, if she had to help somebody else out, that could have been big ugly. Her thumb was broke. She should have popped it when she hit thirds or before, and she should have popped it when she got involved in the second jump, or even better she should have declined the dive based upon the plan. I'm not sure any of you folks would commit to an irreversible jump to gold line (or any other line) you had never been on before (if you didn't have the capacity to swim back out of it). If she is thinking for herself (which she obviously wasn't) she should have been out of there at 1/3's. I believe in gold line and arrows, yeah buddy, but I don't trust em if I don't know em. Glad all is well and that we could learn from this discussion. Thanx.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

I know, I was just saying the full rationale behind why I would have no problem doing it.

What is your procedure for "reeling in"?

also, based on the maps, I would have no problem doing that dive as planned in one go. Rough approximations say that the gold line jump is roughly equidistant back to the surface and it's with the flow, so I would be OK. I would make sure I had big enough tanks and may make it like thirds+2, but I'd be ok doing it without following circuit procedure. That's for me, based on my experience and comfort though...

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If I'm the lead diver I place the jump on the current line, swim over to jump and sit at the new line. When there and everything is verified, signal team to come on over, then they verify that everything they expected is as discussed pre-dive. I then reel back over to first line and pull my jump line and swim back over to my team. This is taking several things into account. First this isn't for a very long jump where I'll be around a corner and can't see my team. It's also not in small cave, it's for places like Ginnie where I'm jumping from big open area to another. It's also not so far that I can't very easily and clearly see my team across the way. In my feeble mind by doing it this way I've verified the line, and allowed my team to confirm that I'm not dumb and just jumped to the wrong line. If I screwed up, then we still have a line back to the initial starting point. If it's unfamiliar cave, tight or silty cave, or an area where I absolutely couldn't dead clearly see my team on the other line we wouldn't even consider doing any of this.

I also agree that based on the maps it's clear the OP's circuit wouldn't be a tax on gas. But I was going on the assumption that because of how things panned out that the woman probably didn't have the best understanding of the area she was traversing regardless of whether she read a map or not.

First, I am a total hypocrite and when I lived in Gainesville and dove Devil's 3-4 times a week I did visual jumps and blind circuits. It was dumb then and it's dumb now.

Second, I cannot believe some of the dangerous crap that is being discussed here. There is only one safe way to do a circuit and that is by verifying both ends, installing the jumps, and leaving appropriate markers. It's spelled out with easy to follow diagrams in any cave diving manual that's worth the paper it is printed on. Do a dive in the morning to set it up properly, get your tanks filled and eat a sub, then do a dive in the afternoon to finish the circuit and clean up. What if someone breaks the line after you pass the point of no return on the second dive? That's why you have a safety reel and plan your gas conservatively. Tie in your safety reel, make the repair, and make your exit just like you would on a linear penetration dive if the same thing happened.

Reeling in the rest of the team? What are you trying to accomplish or protect yourself from? That's like putting a condom on and then taking it off right before having sex. You might as well just do the visual jump rather than a engaging in a pointless little ceremony.

If you're doing pickup dives with parking lot strangers dot and every "i" and cross every "t" or don't dive. Actually, do that regardless of who you dive with. A well known instructor once told me that cave diving must be the safest sport on the planet because every weekend he sees people try to kill themselves and their friends and not succeed.

I'm curious to know some opinions of meeting and diving with someone for the first time. I usually dive with the same people at this point but sometimes dive with unfamiliar people as a lot of us do and have met some great friends by doing so. If I'm unsure of the person and their capabilities I ask a few of my regular dive buddies if they're familiar with the in particular person. Another good thing to do would be kind of a "check out" dive with the person. I've never asked someone to see a card as it seems insulting but maybe not a bad idea at times. Speaking with the person for a little while usually tells me a lot of what to expect. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pullnglide

I'm curious to know some opinions of meeting and diving with someone for the first time. I usually dive with the same people at this point but sometimes dive with unfamiliar people as a lot of us do and have met some great friends by doing so. If I'm unsure of the person and their capabilities I ask a few of my regular dive buddies if they're familiar with the in particular person. Another good thing to do would be kind of a "check out" dive with the person. I've never asked someone to see a card as it seems insulting but maybe not a bad idea at times. Speaking with the person for a little while usually tells me a lot of what to expect. Thoughts?

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I agree, talking to them will tell you a lot. I have even had people go ask their instructors if they should dive with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pullnglide

I'm curious to know some opinions of meeting and diving with someone for the first time. I usually dive with the same people at this point but sometimes dive with unfamiliar people as a lot of us do and have met some great friends by doing so. If I'm unsure of the person and their capabilities I ask a few of my regular dive buddies if they're familiar with the in particular person. Another good thing to do would be kind of a "check out" dive with the person. I've never asked someone to see a card as it seems insulting but maybe not a bad idea at times. Speaking with the person for a little while usually tells me a lot of what to expect. Thoughts?

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I agree, talking to them will tell you a lot. I have even had people go ask their instructors if they should dive with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmint

put the jump in and just leave it there, abandoning it? letting it become a tee for someone else to remove?


.

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That is what the snap and gap was at Hill400 area circa 90s. All it did was cause confusion because no one operated it correctly, and caused a couple incidents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

I agree, talking to them will tell you a lot. I have even had people go ask their instructors if they should dive with me.

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Yes, but I didn't listen to him...

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Yes, but I didn't listen to him...

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:rollguy

Am I the only one that finds the description of this dive absolutely horrifying? If this lady had never been to Ginnie before, she has no idea where she's going once you jumped right at the Maple Leaf. This is a total trust me dive. And why would you "reel people in?" That's just weird. A ceremonial act that makes everyone feel better? If you're going to do a blind jump, just own it, and skip the underwater theatrics.

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Originally Posted by mgif99

A ceremonial act that makes everyone feel better? If you're going to do a blind jump, just own it, and skip the underwater theatrics.

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I disagree. This procedure is not a blind jump; it's totally acceptable in a tourist cave.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

it's totally acceptable in a tourist cave.

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Russell, I generally agree with what you have to say,but denoting something as acceptable in a tourist cave ads complacency to a plan because people infer two sets of rules. Overhead is overhead to me,regardless if it is Peacock, or some river cave in the Withlacoochee. Following a set of rules that increase survivability is applicable to all caves, and deviating increases your risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Russell, I generally agree with what you have to say,but denoting something as acceptable in a tourist cave ads complacency to a plan because people infer two sets of rules. Overhead is overhead to me,regardless if it is Peacock, or some river cave in the Withlacoochee. Following a set of rules that increase survivability is applicable to all caves, and deviating increases your risk.

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I think you need a timeout for calling Russell a deviant.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I think you need a timeout for calling Russell a deviant.

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:rollguy

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I think you need a timeout for calling Russell a deviant.

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We still love Russell, even though he covets his guilty pleasure of Sonny's BBQ. You have to like someone that hails from (as Tim Wilson says) the entertainment capital of the world.

I'm thinking of putting Kelly in timeout for using "Sonny's" and "BBQ" in the same sentence.

Okay, hijack over. This is a good discussion, whether tourist caves allow a slackening of the rules. I, for one, would be inclined to do things in the first 1,000' of Devil's I wouldn't do in most places. Not bust all the rules, but, for example, a visual jump at Hill 400.

I hope they are teaching Rule 1 and Rule 2 to new cave divers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I'm thinking of putting Kelly in timeout for using "Sonny's" and "BBQ" in the same sentence.

Okay, hijack over. This is a good discussion, whether tourist caves allow a slackening of the rules. I, for one, would be inclined to do things in the first 1,000' of Devil's I wouldn't do in most places. Not bust all the rules, but, for example, a visual jump at Hill 400.

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You definitely probably could do that jump and be fine and no issues. My issue is complacency. You, in particular, may not push it any further than that. On the other hand there is a large subset of people that will get the complacency ball rolling from there. Blind jumping to hill 400 leads to more blind jumps further in the cave, eventually leading to blind jumps in parts of the cave they've never seen.




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Ditto for doing circuits when you're only an intro to cave diver and don't even know which way is in and which way is out in a high flow system. A few of us, myself included, have made a few jokes here and there in this thread, but the accident files are littered with people doing dumb things that have been discussed here.

Certain areas I get people choosing whether to run a line or not, I've been guilty too. Some areas I question their choice to not run a line but it's still their choice regardless of me thinking one should be run. Others areas I'm puzzled by the choice of not running a line and thinks it's just plain stupid and potentially dangerous to not run a line there.

- Jeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daedalus

I hope they are teaching Rule 1 and Rule 2 to new cave divers.

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I thought that Rule 1 and Rule 2 were the same. Don't talk about fight club.

Following rules and procedures, put in placed after accidents, is the way to go to stay and feel safer; it reduces stress and control adrenaline levels.

No matter how many hours as an airplane pilot, flying the same plane, you have to go over the starting the engine, taking off, landing, etc. procedures. Skipping one step is the first link in the "chain of errors" that may lead to incidents and accidents.

I can speak to this. Please place jumps as a matter of practice as I've seen the results of not doing so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Russell, I generally agree with what you have to say,but denoting something as acceptable in a tourist cave ads complacency to a plan because people infer two sets of rules. Overhead is overhead to me,regardless if it is Peacock, or some river cave in the Withlacoochee. Following a set of rules that increase survivability is applicable to all caves, and deviating increases your risk.

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:clapper

When I am asked to dive with a person I do not know, I ask to see their Full Cave Card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IRAP Administrator

A lady I know wanted to make a dive. She had learned to dive in Missouri, probably before the advent of gold line. She said she was a "trained cave diver" and I didn't think to ask what level. I later found out she was only Intro.

Four of us did the Grand Tour at Devil's Eye. I placed a jump at the Park Bench to the Bone Room line. I had briefed everyone before the dive, and told them if we weren't to the Maple Leaf before they hit thirds, to turn the dive.

Everything seemed to be going fine. We got to the end of the Bone Room line, and I had them hold the end of a spool, while I went across to the Maple Leaf, then I "reeled them in". We all headed toward the entrance. After a couple hundred feet, The lady signaled to turn the dive. I gave her the "this way our" hand signal, but she still was frantically thumbing the dive. I looked at her SPG, and she was well past thirds, meaning she hadn't been checking her SPG. She still had plenty of gas to get out. I showed her the gold line, and an arrow showing the way out. She still insisted on turning back upstream. This also meant she was ignoring the current, and had forgotten we pulled the jump reel at the Maple Leaf. I literally had to follow her upstream, and tackle her to turn her back toward the exit. She finally gave up fighting, and went sort of limp, like a dove in a dog's mouth, and followed us out.

What I learned is to ask more specific questions, and probably check turn pressure of people I haven't dive with before.

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