Eagles Nest Line To Be Cut Back

As part of the NSS-CDS accident prevention mission and as part of my role as Eagles Nest Safety Officer I have requested that Colt Smith, one of the IUCRR recovery divers, cut back the line that leads to the restriction where we believe the recent tragedy occurred.

This is part of an effort to be proactive in accident prevention. Our rationale is that areas of the cave requiring special expertise to negotiate should not be inviting and easy to find. Hopefully this will encourage newcomers to seek out information and knowledge from others who have been there.

Also, I would like to report that I have spoken to IUCRR and the data analysis has not been completed as of yet. I have been assured that when it is complete there will be an analysis of same and it will be made available to all who are interested.

I would also like to thank all of you who have shown restraint and resisted the urge to speculate out of consideration for the survivors of the decedents. We all want to know what is fact and what is fiction.

Respectfully,

Joe Citelli
Chairman, NSS-CDS


Thoughts????

My first thoughts are that it's a stupid idea

What is next after someone else makes a bad decision and hacks themself? Pulling all the line out?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

My first thoughts are that it's a stupid idea

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Yeah, maybe so, but in a reactionary environment where people expect the agencies to do something/anything after a stressful event like this then it's a pretty reasonable compromise. The agencies get to seem proactive and it doesn't really affect diving too much, even those that could make the dive there.

I'm glad that the CDS is involved (as they have been in the past). The action is probably better as a reminder that they're involved then us not seeing anything happen and them getting grief for not being involved. Big thanks to the CDS, by the way.

-Jon

So the next accident will be a similar situation but also entangled in line.

Cutting back the line is as moronic as closing the cave. Trying to protect people from themselves.

Cave diving is for grown ups. Make grown up decisions.

Lose lose either way it seems.

On one hand you have all the pressure to do "something" on the other hand you might have increased the risk to divers as instead of asking advice/diving with someone who has been there they might try to simply run line themselves and either miss the passable part of the restriction or get entangled in their own line as others have said above.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The first time that I went through there I ran my own line anyway and getting tangled was a complete non issue. If the diver can not run their own line in this area safely then they have no business being there in the first place. I am OK with it either way and actually think that any diver getting to the EOL downstream should already have enough training and functioning brain cells to make there own decision whether to continue or turn the dive at that point.

There are similar tight restrictions in many other cave systems that no lines run to for this exact same reason. Not all divers need to even know where they are or be tempted to go where they should not venture. I applaud the efforts to actually do something rather than trying to just let it slide by and fade away. This goes to show that as a community, we are making efforts to govern ourselves and keep everybody safe without removing access to the more advanced.

I mean, in your story, didn't you get entangled in your own line and have to take ur fin off to remove it? It's a silly thing for grown people to have to deal with on a grown up dive. Running jumps in 300' caves...foolishness

lets just stop the line at the debris cone because after that it gets deep and dangerous

Would the CDS not following their own bylaws and doing accident investigation as well as releasing statistical data not be doing something too? Maybe education instead of trying to make something idiot proof. You know what they say about that.

I cut the line back from the gold line after my original exploration there. I was a little uneasy about divers attempting to go through the restriction who probably shouldn't, a feeling that subsequently has been proven to be justified. I forget who reconnected it to the gold line, and I was fine with that because I think cutting it back it is not going to make any difference - anyone who wants to go through will be able to find it easily. I understand you want to be seen to be doing something, but you may even make it more attractive to some divers. Beware of the law of unintended consequences.

Andy

My only fear, since I am nowhere near ready for the nest, is that this move may be perceived as validation for the calls for limiting access to expert divers. I would have preferred to see the NSSCDS stand by its other missions, namely to educate the public about caves and training so that the risk can be understood better - the number of cave trained and untrained diver accidents in Eagle's Nest shouldn't be combined.

I believe Jeff Bozanic was keeping accident stastistics for the CDS. Is he no longer doing this? And if not, why?

Joel

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Would the CDS not following their own bylaws and doing accident investigation as well as releasing statistical data not be doing something too? Maybe education instead of trying to make something idiot proof. You know what they say about that.

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Lighten up a little bit everyone. There are many unmarked jumps with well hidden lines that many people don't even know they exist. There are also plenty of unmarked passages with no line and these occur in even the most popular recreational caves. It helps keep divers out of places they really don't belong. This isn't a new concept or idea, it's been done for a long time. I was shown many of them by mentors who felt I was ready and I've done the same with others.
I personally think this was a smart move.

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Originally Posted by cavediver27

Lighten up a little bit everyone. There are many unmarked jumps with well hidden lines that many people don't even know they exist. There are also plenty of unmarked passages with no line and these occur in even the most popular recreational caves. It helps keep divers out of places they really don't belong. This isn't a new concept or idea, it's been done for a long time. I was shown many of them by mentors who felt I was ready and I've done the same with others.
I personally think this was a smart move.

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That's true. Good thing the distance tunnel, the worm hole, the crossover tunnel and mainland et al aren't T's so no one ever dies in them





Oh wait

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

I mean, in your story, didn't you get entangled in your own line and have to take ur fin off to remove it?

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That was on my "bad day" dive and I entered the restriction with zero vis and an extremely slack line that may have even been broken at that point. The line that was wrapped around my fin was the original slack line, not from my reel. I was not even running a line, my reel just let some line out and got wrapped up on the original line and myself.

This is not a passage within intro or basic limits. Where do we stop with the reasoning that is being used here? I feel it is just a knee jerk reaction and being done to make people feel better or for the publicity. That is fine but just be honest. There are a lot of T's off of gold / main line that go into passages way smaller than this and they are more accessible and those caves see way more traffic and less experienced divers.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

There are a lot of T's off of gold / main line that go into passages way smaller than this and they are more accessible and those caves see way more traffic and less experienced divers.

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They're not at 260-300 feet are they? I can't say anything about CC diving, but on OC, you have very, very little time to solve problems at those depths. Apples to apples would carry more weight.

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Originally Posted by Benderr

They're not at 260-300 feet are they? I can't say anything about CC diving, but on OC, you have very, very little time to solve problems at those depths. Apples to apples would carry more weight.

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I very seriously doubt any OC divers are going through that restriction in EN. I agree depth plays a role but they never claimed that was the reason it was done. They did however claim over on Facebook that no lines were T'd into gold line in Florida. This is definitely not true and there is even a white line T'd into the gold line in upstream Hole that a descent intro diver could reach. I just don't follow their reasoning and statements but maybe I am missing something.

I object that CDS outright refuses to make all the people happy all the time.

This is an obvious slight by the board of directors to me personally.

But I don't care that the line is getting cut back. Will make it a little harder for people who may not belong there and will cause only minor inconvenience to people who do.

If you couldn't have run a line someplace on your own, you shouldn't be there in the first place.

Just to clarify the Gold Line is being left alone a jump line that was added to the end of the Gold Line is being removed.

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I agree with Dsix.


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I'm in agreement with AJ


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Originally Posted by jlcdvr

I believe Jeff Bozanic was keeping accident stastistics for the CDS. Is he no longer doing this? And if not, why?

Joel

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That's a story for a different post.

TF


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I guess what bothers me about this is it seems give the impression that these divers didn’t belong there. From what has been posted about their diving credentials, it seems they were qualified and able to do this type of diving. Add to this, when the untrained, unqualified venture into a place they have absolutely no business being in and perish, nothing is done. In my opinion it just seems to send the wrong message.

Anyone that is qualified to be there shouldn’t have a problem running a jump line. It doesn’t add much time or complexity to the dive. If that helps the non-cave diving community rest better then so be it.

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Originally Posted by DMoore

From what has been posted about their diving credentials, it seems they were qualified and able to do this type of diving. Add to

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Having the credentials doesnt equal qualified which may be the potential issue in this case.


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Really AJ? I rarely disagree with you but this is a strong statement. Personally I would object a whole lot more to the closure of the cave than to the line being cut back. I would think that you would as well.

I agree cave diving is for grown ups - 100%. Unfortunately, we live in a world where regardless of our acceptance of personal risk, public perception is and will continue to be an issue that has to be managed.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Cutting back the line is as moronic as closing the cave. Trying to protect people from themselves.

Cave diving is for grown ups. Make grown up decisions.

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

Really AJ? I rarely disagree with you but this is a strong statement. Personally I would object a whole lot more to the closure of the cave than to the line being cut back. I would think that you would as well.

I agree cave diving is for grown ups - 100%. Unfortunately, we live in a world where regardless of our acceptance of personal risk, public perception is and will continue to be an issue that has to be managed.

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What public perception, exactly? Does the public know anything about lines in caves? Did the landowner ask for "something" to be done?

This stuff is pretty nuanced for the public.

The public really doesn't have anything to do with this decision. It's cave divers doing exactly the type of thing that cave divers ##### and moan about all the time.

If cutting lines back from the entrance at places like devils and orange grove is to stop ow divers from finding it and following it, the point of cutting this line back is to prevent the most certified divers the sport has from finding it. Maybe. Just maybe (and no slight against the recently deceased, believe me) we need to have more discussions about judgement and slow progression rather than trying to ginnie-fi Eagles Nest of all places.

In my opinion ginnie-fi-ing Eagles Nest makes a strong case that even the top folks in the sport don't have enough judgement to make good decisions for themselves. In a land of cave closures and apparently lawsuits that's not a good precident to set.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

What public perception, exactly? Does the public know anything about lines in caves? Did the landowner ask for "something" to be done?

This stuff is pretty nuanced for the public.

The public really doesn't have anything to do with this decision. It's cave divers doing exactly the type of thing that cave divers ##### and moan about all the time.

If cutting lines back from the entrance at places like devils and orange grove is to stop ow divers from finding it and following it, the point of cutting this line back is to prevent the most certified divers the sport has from finding it. Maybe. Just maybe (and no slight against the recently deceased, believe me) we need to have more discussions about judgement and slow progression rather than trying to ginnie-fi Eagles Nest of all places.

In my opinion ginnie-fi-ing Eagles Nest makes a strong case that even the top folks in the sport don't have enough judgement to make good decisions for themselves. In a land of cave closures and apparently lawsuits that's not a good precident to set.

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Of course there is option C which would have everybody P and M ing- make Eagles Nest a guided system. Would stop the OW diver nuisance. Would assure experience levels would only access parts of the cave they are ready for-hence wouldn't have to have it cave nanny ready. Seems to decrease accidents versus open systems. I am not saying do this,but right now in the eyes of the locals this place is a public nuisance. If we can't do something, then it is left up to their knowledge base and good intentions-which you know where that will go.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

In my opinion ginnie-fi-ing Eagles Nest makes a strong case that even the top folks in the sport don't have enough judgement to make good decisions for themselves. In a land of cave closures and apparently lawsuits that's not a good precident to set.

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No one is trying to ginni-fi Eagles Nest, not enough drunks or a place for a good campground. Who gets to decide who the top folks in the sport are? Is there some sort of scorecard that I am not aware of, not that I particularly care, or are they just a legend in their own mind.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

No one is trying to ginni-fi Eagles Nest, not enough drunks or a place for a good campground. Who gets to decide who the top folks in the sport are? Is there some sort of scorecard that I am not aware of, not that I particularly care, or are they just a legend in their own mind.

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The instructors that dole out full cave full mix and dpv cards. There's no where left to go after that. Maxed out.

A few thoughts:

1. I am a legend in no one's mind, not that the accusation was leveled.

2. Cutting the line back probably won't matter. The recent two fatalities would not have been swayed by running a jump.

3. Cutting the line, to non cave divers, might seem like a measure of avoidance for future accidents. Can't say, but it can't hurt.

3. Cutting is probably equal in conceptual moronity but much different in applicable versus closing.

4. Guide system idea is undesirable.

5. Quite a few people have strong opinions on this section of cave but few have any first hand knowledge or the experience to see it. Or interest, either. And it's hard to argue so vehemently without that support... And be seen as credible.

At least in most worlds that's the case but it seems that cave diving is immune to such logic once it takes place on the internet.

Bob

Clarification: If you are not experienced, trained, interested, close enough, comfortable enough to do this exact dive then you CANNOT possibly understand what people feel who are. You can try, but it's not possible.

I'm saying its tough to know how others think about this type of dive when you have none of the prerequisites to do this dive: the years upon years of experience that build up to a 6 six hour dive, let alone longer; the training; the equipment and knowledge of its use; the repercussions on your body to these exposures; the situational response experience to react to being stuck at 260 feet for 40 minutes.

Etc.

bob

If the CDS now wants to take on responsibility for improving the safety of the lines in Eagle's Nest, how about tidying up some of the mess in the Abyss Room? That has more potential to prevent a future accident than cutting out 10 feet of straight line between the end of the gold line and the Revelation Space restriction.

What mandate does the CDS have in this matter, especially as (expert) opinion is divided on the subject?

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Originally Posted by floridabob

A few thoughts: 1. I am a legend in no one's mind, not that the accusation was leveled.

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Sure you are, just for the yellow hat alone.

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Originally Posted by floridabob

Clarification: If you are not experienced, trained, interested, close enough, comfortable enough to do this exact dive then you CANNOT possibly understand what people feel who are. You can try, but it's not possible.

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I cannot identify with people that have been lobotomized either, doesn't mean I want to go and try it. And I would be willing to bet that by the time you have spent 800 minutes on a dive, most of you feel cold.

Nope, not cold.

Proves my theory though, thanks.

And it was their pre-dive mindset I was referencing.

As for the Abyss room line, great point. It's quite unique.

I look lobotomized wearing that helmet! Or like I should be.

Bob

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Originally Posted by apitkin

What mandate does the CDS have in this matter,

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Since the CDS mandates are safety, education and conservation,I would assume their safety role would be engaged. I am sure the question is what gives the CDS authority to become involved? Since the CDS and NACD played a primary role in reopening the site in 2003, and recently when there was a threat of closure they played a primary role in helping to keep it open. I am sure the CDS is exercising one of its less mandated roles of landowner relations. No matter what we as a community think, the CDS has good history of interacting with government agencies, and is looked upon by these agencies as who they should approach we needing to interact with cave divers. Good, bad ,or indifferent I am just rehashing cave diving history.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Since the CDS mandates are safety, education and conservation,I would assume their safety role would be engaged. I am sure the question is what gives the CDS authority to become involved? Since the CDS and NACD played a primary role in reopening the site in 2003, and recently when there was a threat of closure they played a primary role in helping to keep it open. I am sure the CDS is exercising one of its less mandated roles of landowner relations. No matter what we as a community think, the CDS has good history of interacting with government agencies, and is looked upon by these agencies as who they should approach we needing to interact with cave divers. Good, bad ,or indifferent I am just rehashing cave diving history.

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Fair enough.

The most productive thing to do would be to make a public announcement (already done I think), get a good videographer like Becky or Curt or someone to video the momentous cutting-back in beautifully-lit 4K broadcast-quality video, then release the video and a press statement to the effect that there has been a major improvement in the lines in the cave such that a fatality like this one will never happen again.

At least that may help to counter some of the calls out there to close the cave.

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Originally Posted by apitkin

Fair enough.

The most productive thing to do would be to make a public announcement (already done I think), get a good videographer like Becky or Curt or someone to video the momentous cutting-back in beautifully-lit 4K broadcast-quality video, then release the video and a press statement to the effect that there has been a major improvement in the lines in the cave such that a fatality like this one will never happen again.

At least that may help to counter some of the calls out there to close the cave.

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Bob

Cutting back the line won't make someone realize their limitations.
People have figure that out on their own. Some do not get a second chance.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Cutting back the line won't make someone realize their limitations.
People have figure that out on their own. Some do not get a second chance.

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Agreed


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by apitkin

If the CDS now wants to take on responsibility for improving the safety of the lines in Eagle's Nest, how about tidying up some of the mess in the Abyss Room? That has more potential to prevent a future accident than cutting out 10 feet of straight line between the end of the gold line and the Revelation Space restriction.

What mandate does the CDS have in this matter, especially as (expert) opinion is divided on the subject?

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i bet the response will be...that line has historical value because it was laid a gazillion years ago by so and so.

Any line cleanup is valuable. cutting back a line that only a few would attempt, less so. Heck a memento on the line would be more appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Of course there is option C which would have everybody P and M ing- make Eagles Nest a guided system. Would stop the OW diver nuisance. Would assure experience levels would only access parts of the cave they are ready for-hence wouldn't have to have it cave nanny ready. Seems to decrease accidents versus open systems. I am not saying do this,but right now in the eyes of the locals this place is a public nuisance. If we can't do something, then it is left up to their knowledge base and good intentions-which you know where that will go.

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how would guiding be of any help when the site is readily accessible and tons of OW divers already visit.. *shrugs*

Who's gonna guide Draker on his 13 hour dives?

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Originally Posted by patpicos

how would guiding be of any help when the site is readily accessible and tons of OW divers already visit.. *shrugs*

Who's gonna guide Draker on his 13 hour dives?

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Assumption would be the site would be closed off in some form, and there is a check in process that only allows credentialed people access.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Assumption would be the site would be closed off in some form, and there is a check in process that only allows credentialed people access.

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Why bother to respond to Patpicos? He's Canadian and he still lives there.

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Originally Posted by floridabob

Why bother to respond to Patpicos? He's Canadian and he still lives there.

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watch out! waiting on an offer from Tampa :p ....hopefully before the wall goes up

When you take out the line at eagles nest dont throw it away use it to bridge the gaps at olsen sink and challange sink.
Can I get and AMEN!!!

Definitely a higher and better use of said line.

I am in the camp where doing something to give the public the impression that the cave is now 'safer' is a good idea.
For those folks able to perform that dive it is a negligible impact compared to the public impression it could make.
An announcement that that line has been cut back and other lines that could pose issues have been cleaned up by an internationally recognized agency will go a long way towards improving the public perception about the cave.

Seems illogical to react by moving/removing line.
It didn't contribute to the last fatality and no one thinks that laying a jump would have caused them to change their plans.
Parallels calls to restrict legal gun ownership after a criminal with a stolen gun shoots some folks.
Engaging in restrictive nonsense in order to do SOMETHING.

Not sure how to best convince hard chargers to slow down for a few years and build up experience.
No one worth listening to believes they had enough experience in the system to be where they were going.

One contribution is that type A's with a high degree of skill aren't as impacted by warnings as they are used to successfully overcoming obstacles.
Truth is there may be no solution to stop this type of death without stupidly restricting the rest of our freedoms.
I always oppose those types of efforts.

What happens on the next death? We cut the line back further? Put a gate with a lock? Pull all of the line.

As a singular action this might seem a good idea but it's just a knee jerk reaction.

If the CDS was concerned about education and safety they should have been proactive instead of reactive.


TF


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Originally Posted by tflaris

If the CDS was concerned about education and safety they should have been proactive instead of reactive.

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I fully agree with this, but have a hard time imagining, "How?"

It's hard to change a culture. Turning a supertanker hard. Especially a culture full of mostly driven, Type-A personality, "explorer" sorts with disposable income enough to get all the same toys as the people who are on the absolute cutting edge of the sport.

I fall victim to it myself. I see the pictures of Twin Dees and think, "I've just GOT to get there!" even though I have nowhere near the level of experience or ability to do so yet, much less access to the permitting, etc. Entirely possible I never will.

So how do we make a shift, as a community and a culture, to a more patient, measured, and slow-progressing bunch of divers who accept that there are actually some places we just may never see? Especially when so many have come up through a system of diver education where the cost of the course almost always ensures a shiny, new c-card, a pat on the head, and being told, "You're the best new XXXX diver in the world!"

How do we get people who have to nurture a confidence in their abilities for adequate performance of their sport to balance a self-reflective doubt of their abilities?

Sometimes it all about improving public perception.

Maybe something like Abe Davis Award? Should be Abe Davis card holder to enter, but must posses ______ to proceed past ______ restriction. Maybe not even a "rule", but perhaps a guideline? Aren't there levels assigned to mountains in mountain climbing? It seems like such a rating or requirement would be easy for the public to understand. We're making this place "safer", because you need to be _______ before you go past _______.

It wouldn't necessarily stop anyone, but it may make them spend more time in making the decision to attempt it. For me, having a benchmark helps as an extra check on my ego.

The counter-arguments are: Where do we draw the line? Why should we need babysitters? Who gets to decide? What about exploration/expedition? All important considerations.

I don't seem to be able to get wound up about this line. It seems to me lines have moved many places multiple times for less noble reasons than public perception. If the uninitiated think this is a good move or they may think it's a good move, let's go for it.

I don't have a problem with them cutting the line back the issue I have is them not being honest with their intentions. To publicly make the statement that there are no T's off of gold line in Florida is factually inaccurate and either shows complete ineptitude or just a blatant lie. I personally prefer T's as I feel they are safer. There was an incident in JB about 2 years ago where if the Rabbit Hole bypass line had been T'd in the diver wouldn't have had an issue. Instead he got lucky that another group had left a safety at the stoplight so everything worked out.

Jay, if we bow this time, there will be a next and another next.
Before long we will look like the rest of the country.

Good God.

What manner of bupkis is that?

In what Universe can an offered suggestion be considered a bow?

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Jay, if we bow this time, there will be a next and another next.
Before long we will look like the rest of the country.

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What's with all the melodrama? The deed is done. It's not going to be changing anytime soon.
Nearly 100% of the people complaining about this including me won't have the skill set or experience to attempt this dive so when the time comes just run your own line.

Geesh, the line has been cut back so just get over it. If you have the experience, skills, equipment and desire to do this dive then no worries, just run your own reel and do the dive. It's as easy as that. It's obvious that some of the people with their panties all bunched up worrying about this have never even dived in the Nest, have never been deeper than 120' and have no idea about what it takes to even contemplate a dive like this.
My only other comment is just a reminder that the cave didn't kill these or any other divers and the line that was cut back didn't kill them either. A combination of the decisions made BY THE DIVERS caused their demise. Nothing more and nothing less.

Well said, Dave... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

Line cut back, line T'd, line moved forward....these arguments, discussions, thesis statements have gone on forever.

What I worry about is that we won't settle on this issue and the net effect is it tends to cause tragedy versus helping. For example, the battle over the P1 line being near OW or near the sign, left one team doing the grand traverse without a perceived safe exit. So, someone who objects to the line being cut back will go in and replace the line,this has happened in the past, and will happen again. Not having seen the restriction previously and trusting other's commentary,if you didn't know the restriction, then in a silt out, following the line was difficult where it previously was. So we got to hope the person who ends up putting the line back does a good job,because a poor placement, could make the situation worse. Bottom line we are all concerned,and want to see the sport made as safe as possible,but in the process of saving us from ourselves, PLEASE don't make things worse.

Nice one Dave!

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Originally Posted by cavediver27

Geesh, the line has been cut back so just get over it. If you have the experience, skills, equipment and desire to do this dive then no worries, just run your own reel and do the dive. It's as easy as that. It's obvious that some of the people with their panties all bunched up worrying about this have never even dived in the Nest, have never been deeper than 120' and have no idea about what it takes to even contemplate a dive like this.
My only other comment is just a reminder that the cave didn't kill these or any other divers and the line that was cut back didn't kill them either. A combination of the decisions made BY THE DIVERS caused their demise. Nothing more and nothing less.

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Just adding my two cents... I approve of cutting back the line. I dove that area awhile ago and at the time the line was very slack and jumbled. I didn't trust that crap line at all. Needless to say I ignored that line and ran my own jump (primary reel actually) all the way through the restriction and then even further in. I like that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing your own familiar line and reel... especially in very silty tight deep places.