Gold line

I have been thinking a bit about the placement of gold lines lately. I understand that the idea was to prevent OW divers from seeing the line and thinking that it was okay to follow it into the cave. As cave diving becomes more and more popular though, there are sites that are almost never without a primary reel. Think of the eye at Ginnie. I have seen up to 6 lines run through there and when I am coming out with dual 108's and an AL 80 stage and an AL 40 O2 bottle, it becomes a serious entanglement hazard. Has there been any thought given to moving the gold line closer to OW (or at least to near the sign where the cave is bigger) to avoid the spider web effect on busy days?

What would the draw backs be of running the line all the way to open water? I am interested in your opinions on this topic.

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Originally Posted by CHartmann

I have been thinking a bit about the placement of gold lines lately. I understand that the idea was to prevent OW divers from seeing the line and thinking that it was okay to follow it into the cave. As cave diving becomes more and more popular though, there are sites that are almost never without a primary reel. Think of the eye at Ginnie. I have seen up to 6 lines run through there and when I am coming out with dual 108's and an AL 80 stage and an AL 40 O2 bottle, it becomes a serious entanglement hazard. Has there been any thought given to moving the gold line closer to OW (or at least to near the sign where the cave is bigger) to avoid the spider web effect on busy days?

What would the draw backs be of running the line all the way to open water? I am interested in your opinions on this topic.

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Let me share some history of the Ginnie gold line with you. Back in the day, the gold line started at the Keyhole and I'm told it was actually closer to the Hill 400 at one time but that was a long long time ago. I was on the ( now defunct ) line committee back in the late 90's and by majority vote, and the owners approval, the line was moved to it's present position. Other than running a line down the Eye Corridor, no changes have been made to the Gold line in well over a decade so now to your question???
At Ginnie, it's always going to be a "crap shoot" regarding OW and even Cavern divers when it comes to the placement, ie, the start of the Gold line. The present location, just around the bend, hopefully keeps the majority of recreational divers from swimming into the cave. Who knows what would happen if the line started at the bottom of the chimney or up by the log. As for the congestion, wish I had an answer. You need to remember what our standards call for regarding the placement of the primary line. Granted, in the old days, you might see two or three reels at best on a typical Saturday. Those days are long gone, as you know. Peacock, main spring, solved the problem but not letting OW divers dive at that location. That will never happen at Ginnie!!
So, a lot of "rambling" and no solution to your question. Wish I had a solution but no such luck! Actually I do have a solution. Get there very early or very late!!!

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Originally Posted by Brent

Let me share some history of the Ginnie gold line with you. Back in the day, the gold line started at the Keyhole and I'm told it was actually closer to the Hill 400 at one time but that was a long long time ago...

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Not THAT long ago. The reason the Dive Rite red reel holds 400' of line was to get to the start of the main line (not gold at the time). Before the line committee, the start of the main line tended to get moved every couple of weeks. One group wanted to keep it at hill 400 and another group wanted it at the Keyhole.

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Originally Posted by FW

Before the line committee, the start of the main line tended to get moved every couple of weeks. One group wanted to keep it at hill 400 and another group wanted it at the Keyhole.

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Line placement has had a contentious past. There was a battle over the placement of some line in Ginnie a number of years ago, with each party undoing the other person's previous placement. It came to blows in the Devil's parking lot with a fist fight that resulted in the sheriff being called. Same thing with the placement of the main line at P1. One party wanted it the original position at the sign, the other in open water. A battle ensued and eventually it put a couple divers at risk who were doing the grand traverse, and they complained to Tallahassee. The park faced closure from diving until the problem could be resolved.

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As cave diving becomes more and more popular

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Actually data shows it hasn't grown that much as far as active participants at the present,but the biggest boom in popularity (and active population size) was the 90s. We had the same problem of many lines going to main line,but just a longer distance back.

Maybe another solution to the spider webs would be better placements. I'm not the best at running a line but I do try to run it so it doesn't get in everyone's way. Like along the sides? Instructors maybe reinforce this?


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only helps those currently being trained not the ones that are already finished unfortunately. Compound that with the fact that there are only so many ways to put lines in each of these passages due to limited tie off's. I'm all for bringing the line out farther in caves that have heavy traffic and limited places to run the lines, but also get the sad but true reality of the liability associated with it

Running a primary. That just gets in the way of my penetration and consumes all that precious gas at the beginning of the dive and uses up all that extra time at the beginning especially in 30' of water with cave filled doubles on the back and possibly 2 stage bottles. - Sarcasm intended.

What are the legal implications for the property owner if a diver follows a gold line into a cave and dies vs. following a primary reel into a cave and dies? Especially if there are signs posted and waivers signed. How would this litigation play out?

I know there are a few people here that are well acquainted with the legal system surrounding this issue in one way or another. I would like to hear your input.

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Originally Posted by CHartmann

What are the legal implications for the property owner if a diver follows a gold line into a cave and dies vs. following a primary reel into a cave and dies? Especially if there are signs posted and waivers signed. How would this litigation play out?

I know there are a few people here that are well acquainted with the legal system surrounding this issue in one way or another. I would like to hear your input.

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Lines are tied to tree limbs in France and I don't think anybody's been sued. But it's also a very different society and legal system

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Originally Posted by rddvet

...But it's also a very different society and legal system

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Yes, and there are No Trespassing signs at a lot of French caves. It is my understanding that if there is a sign there, the landowner won't get sued, unlike in the US :-(

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Originally Posted by FW

Yes, and there are No Trespassing signs at a lot of French caves. It is my understanding that if there is a sign there, the landowner won't get sued, unlike in the US :-(

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Here's a question, do surviving buddies ever get sued?


Like, if one pairs up with a buddy they really don't know and have never dove with, and they turn out to be a terrible diver and kack themselves will one get sued?

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Originally Posted by FW

Yes, and there are No Trespassing signs at a lot of French caves. It is my understanding that if there is a sign there, the landowner won't get sued, unlike in the US :-(

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Very sad. We shouldnt reward dumbasses

Here's a couple of my favorite. Seems all we really have to do is put something like this up. Well, that's step one. Step two is completely overhaul our legal system, or sociological structure, and our cultural sensibilities to transcend the foolish, overly-litigious, crybaby culture that lacks common sense and personal responsibility. But, of course, that will probably be the easy part. Finding who owns the copyright on those signs might be tough.

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I've been deposed as a witness in three civil liability cases, where I had responded as a paramedic. In each one someone chose to ignore prominent warning signs and do something incredibly stupid, resulting in life threatening injury in two cases and loss of life in the other. All of them were settled out of court, with the landowners' insurance company essentially paying the plaintiff and his lawyer to go away. 20+ years later I'm still disgusted.

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Originally Posted by oya

..completely overhaul our legal system, or sociological structure...that lacks common sense and personal responsibility.

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what he said...


I never understood while at the same time as all European systems are berated as being evil socialism.. this no personal responsibility and all is someone elses fault behavior became so implemented in the systems and accepted..


Seems totally counterintuitive..




But who knows, maybe someone will play a trump card and magically Murica will be great again ;)

We teach cave divers how to share primary reels in an effort to reduce the spider web effect. This works when done correctly.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

We teach cave divers how to share primary reels in an effort to reduce the spider web effect. This works when done correctly.

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Devils Advocate >>>>Ok so there was no communication about sharing a primary reel... but isn't that what happened at Peacock ?? Seems like a permanent line would have solved the technicality of no communication about use of the reel.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Devils Advocate >>>>Ok so there was no communication about sharing a primary reel... but isn't that what happened at Peacock ?? Seems like a permanent line would have solved the technicality of no communication about use of the reel.

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It sounds like reel sharing was the least of the concerns for the folks at peacock... In fact, if one diver died back in the cave and the other excited at challenge, neither would have seen the entrance line other than when they entered... If Orange Grove is even where they entered the system...

When you share a line you ask permission prior to doing so. At least that's what I was taught. If you don't, you risk it not being there when you return.


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Originally Posted by cmint

Here's a question, do surviving buddies ever get sued?


Like, if one pairs up with a buddy they really don't know and have never dove with, and they turn out to be a terrible diver and kack themselves will one get sued?

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It has happened successfully with family suing the dive buddy of a diver who died while diving on a dive boat. So could it happen in cave diving,why not, we as a society sue everyone for everything. Makes you really think about picking up a random buddy at sites or on forums.

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Originally Posted by Diverlee

When you share a line you ask permission prior to doing so. At least that's what I was taught. If you don't, you risk it not being there when you return.


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Yes. A brief conversation in the parking lot and the use of a cookie is all it takes.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

Yes. A brief conversation in the parking lot and the use of a cookie is all it takes.

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Hey, I've seen Law and Order SVU episodes that started that way.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

Yes. A brief conversation in the parking lot and the use of a cookie is all it takes.

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Even easier to just not run a primary at Ginnie, and pray you don't get tangled up in someone else's mess on the way out.

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Originally Posted by Diverlee

When you share a line you ask permission prior to doing so. At least that's what I was taught.

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That is correct.

I read two references to the "owner" of the Devil's system. If I'm not mistaken, the system is not owned by Ginnie. Now allowing people to dive that system from the "owner's" property is where the liability comes in. (happy to be corrected if I am wrong).

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

what he said...


I never understood while at the same time as all European systems are berated as being evil socialism.. this no personal responsibility and all is someone elses fault behavior became so implemented in the systems and accepted..


Seems totally counterintuitive..

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Not hard to understand from my perspective. No society that I am aware of has it all figured out. One of the major flaws with the USA, is the mentality that any "victim" deserves to get paid. ..and a legal system that tends to back that up.

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Originally Posted by Adler

One of the major flaws with the USA, is the mentality that any "victim" deserves to get paid. ..and a legal system that tends to back that up.

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Well the basis of any 1st world legal system is that victims get compensated, so that is no flaw.. the flaw is more in the views and definition of what constitutes an eligible victim.
Most legal systems outside of the US definitely question such eligibility once the "victim" acts utterly stupid against all commons sense and foremost breaking the rules, so basically becomes a victim of its own stupidity. So in such systems it is hard to get any claim even accepted to be looked at by the legal system...

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Originally Posted by Adler

No society that I am aware of has it all figured out.

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That's a fair statement and I never wanted to imply that Europeans would have it all figured. In regards to litigation risk though, it works far better as common sense would always come first..

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Well the basis of any 1st world legal system is that victims get compensated, so that is no flaw..

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Perhaps I could have phrased it better. By "victims ...get paid", I meant that anyone who has a bad experience deserves lavish cash payout. Such as winning the Lotto. I understand that sometimes monetary compensation is the best way to settle an injustice. But when a person can trespass on your property and hurt/kill themselves... and then, expect any pay-out.. there is a real problem.

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That's a fair statement and I never wanted to imply that Europeans would have it all figured. In regards to litigation risk though, it works far better as common sense would always come first..

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I lived in Germany for 6 years and have fond memories of my time there. I do get a little exhausted hearing from folks who try to make 'apples' to 'apples' comparisons between societies and governments with very real differences.

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

In regards to litigation risk though, it works far better as common sense would always come first..

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Yeah, you can't get sued for stuff like this because we aren't allowed to do anything to begin with. The few caves we have are closed by the nanny a-holes that run the country.

Did we not thrash all this out 10 years ago? Then 7, then 5, then 2..............

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Did we not thrash all this out 10 years ago? Then 7, then 5, then 2..............

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I thought history repeated itself... Sort of like the StarWars movies....

Are there any systems in Florida that require a 400ft primary?

I ask because it seems that everywhere I have dove in cave country, the gold line is less than 200ft from a direct shot to the surface. If not less. And many people don't run a reel.....

(Asking because I want to get a smaller reel to use as a primary. Leaning towards the new diverite safety reel)

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Originally Posted by Pirate Dave

Are there any systems in Florida that require a 400ft primary?

I ask because it seems that everywhere I have dove in cave country, the gold line is less than 200ft from a direct shot to the surface. If not less. And many people don't run a reel.....

(Asking because I want to get a smaller reel to use as a primary. Leaning towards the new diverite safety reel)

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Not anymore. At one time, the gold line in Devil's Eye started at the Hill 400 jump. That is why there are several 400' primaries on the market.

However, there are some very enjoyable dives in places like Ginnie or other "tourist" caves that might require a 400 foot reel. So don't let yourself get caught "short".

If conditions are bad enough, if you have to tie off at the steps in OG you get close. I don't know what the actual distance is, but it's well over 200ft. P3 used to be pretty far back as well but they moved the line VERY close to the open water zone.

Mexico has many mainline far from ow.
Naharon comes to mind

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Originally Posted by patpicos

Mexico has many mainline far from ow.
Naharon comes to mind

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Car Wash too.

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Originally Posted by FW

Car Wash too.

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Sure, but Zacil Ha (Lukes hope does not at all) and I really don't get why anybody would ever want to enter from carwash and not zacil ha..
the latter nicer entrance, better facilities and you safe 15 min of rather boring sections being a lot closer to the nice stuff like Cell block or room of tears..

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Sure, but Zacil Ha (Lukes hope does not at all) and I really don't get why anybody would ever want to enter from carwash and not zacil ha..
the latter nicer entrance, better facilities and you safe 15 min of rather boring sections being a lot closer to the nice stuff like Cell block or room of tears..

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It shows how long it has been since I was there. I didn't even know here was a trail to Luke's Hope.

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Originally Posted by FW

It shows how long it has been since I was there. I didn't even know here was a trail to Luke's Hope.

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hahaha.. yes that must be a long time then. there is a whole cenote operation at zacil ha..
it is a direct entrance on the coba road right before aktun ha..

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Originally Posted by Pirate Dave

Are there any systems in Florida that require a 400ft primary?

I ask because it seems that everywhere I have dove in cave country, the gold line is less than 200ft from a direct shot to the surface. If not less. And many people don't run a reel.....

(Asking because I want to get a smaller reel to use as a primary. Leaning towards the new diverite safety reel)

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In North Florida Caves we are pretty spoiled not having to run extensive primary reels. When you go to JB you best carry a primary that is pretty full. Moat of the time I ask the team ahead of me if I can place a cookie on their primary so I don't have to create a spider web at the entrance of the cave. When I get back I either pull the reel for them if their cookie is gone or I simply remove my cookie so they will know I am out of the system and they can pull the reel.
If I am diving in Ginnie I usually have to tighten up a primary line that was placed by a diver who either did not make a good wrap or another diver kicked it and caused a possible line trap. It is each of our responsibility to insure the safety of the line for other divers when we see a possible problem.
Better to fix the problem than to leave it and then go on the internet and make a complaint.:arrowred
We all make mistakes and no diver is perfect. I think we should have learned that in our full cave course.

While you may not need a 400 foot primary in No FL for the entrance, there certainly are dives away from the gold line where a 400 footer would be advisable.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

If conditions are bad enough, if you have to tie off at the steps in OG you get close. I don't know what the actual distance is, but it's well over 200ft. P3 used to be pretty far back as well but they moved the line VERY close to the open water zone.

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That happened to us in my Intro class and I remember the reel seeming rather empty by the time we got to the sign and tied into the gold line.

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Originally Posted by Six Feet Under

That happened to us in my Intro class and I remember the reel seeming rather empty by the time we got to the sign and tied into the gold line.

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I remember running the primary reel to the Peanut Tunnel in Apprentice class (when the gold line began in the actual Peanut Tunnel). I ran out of line about six feet from where the gold line began. My instructor handed me a jump reel to go those last six feet.

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Originally Posted by patpicos

Mexico has many mainline far from ow.
Naharon comes to mind

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And in one case this has contributed to a double fatality, at Mayan Blue. The divers were diving the B/E tunnels, and inadvertently jumped over to the A tunnel, and reached the exit end of that line. But the line terminus is so far in the tunnel that they couldn't see daylight and they thought they had reached the other end of the line and turned around, and perished deep inside A tunnel.

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Originally Posted by Kafkaland

And in one case this has contributed to a double fatality, at Mayan Blue. The divers were diving the B/E tunnels, and inadvertently jumped over to the A tunnel, and reached the exit end of that line. But the line terminus is so far in the tunnel that they couldn't see daylight and they thought they had reached the other end of the line and turned around, and perished deep inside A tunnel.

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I was down there when that accident happened. As you mentioned, the gold line was about 25 feet back from it's present location which put it just out of the daylight zone. No disrespect meant, but that accident should not have happened. Once you jump onto the A line ( either by accident or deliberate ) you encounter a LOT of markers all pointing towards the exit and yet when the divers reached the end of the line and made the decision to turn around, they appearently ignored all the dorf markers and continued on into the cave until they both ran out of air.