Dynamic Compaction in Florida

In reference to some claims about Alachua Sink issues, I took a spare moment to see why a Geologist would bring up dynamic compaction use in Florida if it had "never" been used. I did a short search on the web and on the first page alone found three companies who have had projects in Florida and are continueing to provide this service in the state of Florida. See the web pages for Geo-Solutions, Geotechnical Engineering, Terrasystems-inc. I have found in my own life that the works "never" are best left out of letters. It's a big state. The words "never" are poorly chosen as were many other words on that letter. Just another public service anouncement from your friendly cave guide. Cindy Butler

The specific claim Cindy was that the specific protocol to be used at that site was the dropping of concrete blocks from helicopters.

You do remember that, right? And that it was retracted? And that in the retraction, it was admitted that this particular technique - dropping concrete blocks from helicopters - had never been used in Florida - right? And you recall that it was admitted - under pressure once again - that there was in fact no plan to use dynamic compaction at that site.

You also remember why I challenged that claim, right?

It was due to the blatent stupidity of using that sort of method of accomplishing the goal - both in terms of cost and efficacy. Nobody in their right mind would use choppers for such a purpose.

If you recall, a central point of that debate began over the original claim that the store would collapse the cave due to direct soil loading from the structure's weight. That straw man was shot down as well.

You know how this went down before the crash. There were a serious of specious and outrageously false charges made about this development plan, all of which were of the form "imminent collapse/destruction of the cave system WILL occur if this thing is built - we must all stop WalMart!."

As each straw man was set up it was knocked down - and when the environmental arguments were dosposed of then the debate turned to people arguing that all the local store owners would be run out of town on a rail and we should oppose it for THAT reason.

Never mind that a central point of your argument against was runoff contamination of the cave. But gee, that letter you posted (just before deleting it, and then ultimately the entire thread going poof!) admitted that for the last couple of months the system has been undiveable due to...... runoff. With no development on the parcel.

Why is it that a clean debate - without twisting what's posted or just outright deleting one's words is so difficult?

And what's wrong with standing behind what you say and believe, instead of editing or outright removing it, then pretending that those words never left your fingers?

You used the verbage in the letter Karl. It is obviously not true. SRWM is a organization that deals with construcion in this state, they are educated and experienced in these matters. You wrote claims that are completely off base and untrue, this makes the letter you wrote out of context and poorly done. That's not twisting things. There are several ways of doing dynamic compaction and I believe the dropping the weight from a helicopter was used as an example by the person who posted to demonstrate how much compaction is taking place on the soil. I didn't post that and there is nothing to refer to so it's a little difficult to say.

Interesting how when you talk about twisting facts it is done in such a way as to try to make me or anyone else involved in this effort to save this cave as being involved in outragious claims and wrong doing by you. It's simply not true and you are spreading misinformation based on preconcieved ideas that you have based solely on your dislike of me as a person. What you have written doesn't make the people involved look bad because it's public record what we have said and done.

No one involved in the project to save that cave has used any anti-wal mart sentiments. The fact remains WalMart is the company that is building over the cave. We would have said home depo if it had been that company or Target. The fact remains that WalMart is the company. We didn't go out looking to get into that action I can assure you.

If you had gone to the meetings you would know that. Again, reactions made by you from second hand information and little snipits of articles that you pick apart and regurgitate to fit your own personal fantasy about this situation. Frankly all the wording about what other people wrote is pretty silly because you don't have who wrote them or what was said. You take a lot out of context. When the real information if presented in the light of day the claims that are made are shown for what they really are, Nonsense.

The cave frequently has visability problems. If you knew the cave you would know that WalMart is building downstream of where we dive. Run off issues are alarming to the homeowners and the people living downstream of that area. Again you are making statements without any basis in fact of any kind. The flooding and cave damage issues have nothing to do with what you are talking about. Karl why don't you get some information that is based on anything other than your personal memory and predjudice against me before the next post. You did remind me of why I didn't ask you for help after my phone call with you. That was very usefull, Cindy :roll:

is someone posting while pissed? :?

Cindy, this is not personal and I don't "dislike" you. I don't know you at all, other than by what you've posted - we've never met. What you have done is accuse me - more than once - of things that are just flatly false, including being a "paid lobbyist". In THAT instance you knew that was a false charge, becuase you and I explicitly talked about this on the phone - and I made very clear to you that I engage in no paid activism on ANY issue.

I do think you've been co-opted and taken "ownership" of something without careful consideration, but this does not make you an awful person - just perhaps misguided.

As for the names and such, we have some trouble with going there, no? That complaint is a lot like an arsonist making a stink about there being no evidence after they've burned it all up.

This is, ultimately, about balance and false claims by those seeking to block the project. Or at least - it should be. Some of it spilled over onto my forum; the thread there went 4 pages and still is present, since nobody can tamper with it there...

Kelly led the charge there with the false claims, and one by one they were shot down. The raw jingoistic "no Walmart" stuff showed up there too and was in clear evidence.

I'm all for protecting the environment. I remain unconvinced that there is a real, demonstrable risk to the cave that is not addressable by dealing with the runoff issues - and those can be dealt with.

The arguments about the fuel station on site are specious. There WAS an issue with that 20 years ago, but no longer. Federal laws have changed on this and the current systems are basically bombproof.

The argument about vehicle runoff is even more specious; you've got I75 and 441 right there and more cars cross that road (and potentially drop things) than the parking lot will/does. Plus, they've planned to build a retention pond.

I've seen one well-reasoned argument for changes to the retention pond format proposed, and I support that. Focusing our argument on making sure the runoff issue is addressed would, IMHO, serve us well - it would position us as being truly concerned with the environment rather than trying to "stop all things Walmart".

The latter is almost certain to fail. Alachua can use the 400 jobs this store will bring, it can use the sales tax revenue (they already have a lol option taxes that make both gasoline and general goods significantly more expensive than surrounding counties) and they have an unemployment problem. In addition the county has a significant population of people who are on limited incomes and the reduction in their household costs that will come with the Supercenter is NOT trivial for those people.

Dismissing these factors when you're one of the people who "has theirs", especially when you don't even live in the county, is particularly offensive to me. As one of the people who "has his", I do remember what it was like when I DID NOT. Been there, done that, got the Tshirt.

If people want to try to kill the development with specious arguments they can take their best shot, of course. Just don't think you will do it without concerned citizens with an opposing point of view also speaking out.

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Originally Posted by Genesis

Kelly led the charge there with the false claims, and one by one they were shot down.

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I know of no rule # such and such that prevents libel,but be cautious before you continue further!

I have "led" no charge, only in support of. No false claims that I am aware of, maybe less than optimal examples to express a point. And if it supports your ego to feel that you've shot me down, then that is fine, I have thick skin.

I am in support of Cindy, Jim, Drew, Buford, and many people who have worked in the background with the intent of preserving a cave system, something that is slowly becoming endangered as time progresses. I compliment these people who stand in the public spotlight and meet frustration over what they see as being right, not for personal profit.

If the goal was preservation, you and the rest would have worked to get rid of Sonny's and the other development in the area already, supported work to eminent domain the entire area, turn it all into a zoned area where no development could take place, etc.

But - of course - you haven't done any of that.

Kelly, who posted the original thead over at Scubaforum? That would be the person who "led" with the issue there, yes?

Let me provide a direct cite:

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I understand it is a practice when building a structure of this size to drop several ton blocks from a helicopter to crush karst terrain and fill it in with concrete.

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Your words on 10/9/05 at 9:27:57 AM.

You were asked repeatedly to support that claim, and were unable to do it.

Now you're threatening me for pointing out what you actually said? I'm impressed!

I can keep going with the cites if you'd like - you accused WalMart of all sorts of things in that thread, including employing illegal aliens (which, by the way, was not true - a cleaning CONTRACTOR had hired them - WalMart wasn't making the hiring and firing decisions, so how would they know?)

This thread was "done over" quit extensively back in October. Its still there, for those who wish to read it.

As I stated then and will continue to, I have concerns about runoff management. The original hue and cry was all about WalMart trashing the cave by dropping concrete from choppers - when in fact the soil studies were, at the time the charge was made, already done, filed, looked up and pulled by another user on the forum.

Look, if you folks all really want to stop this, there is a legitimate way to do it. Get the county to eminent domain the land, rezone it to "recreational" or something similar preventing development (e.g. make it a park - a legitimate public purpose), pay off the current owner his fair due under the Constitution, and you're done. I've repeatedly pointed out that this is a perfectly legitimate response to this sort of concern and its developer-neutral.

But that sort of approach requires people to actually state what they're for, not what they're against. The current approach being taken is just like a political race in which one party puts forth a plan, and the other trashes it - but offers no alternative. That is a losing strategy, and meanwhile, as was just pointed out here, you have what appears to be a quarry right over near Little River. Where is the activity and screaming to stop THAT?

The parcel in question is zoned for the activity contemplated. If you want to stop it then get it rezoned, which is a taking, and compensate the landowner.

That's the RIGHT way to do this sort of thing in America.

From the other thread. I only want to bring up one point and didn't feel like starting a new thread about it, and since that post was locked, I figured I'd just toss it in here.

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Originally Posted by Genesis

There have also been claims that allowing fuel sales on the property will inevitably lead to releases of gasoline into the groundwater - and thus fuel sales should be absolutely barred. This, as I’m certain you know, is simply not true. Modern fueling systems are designed with double-wall tanks and full-time electronic monitoring between the two tank walls. Intrusion into the center space is immediately indicated on an alarm panel, and disables the fuel pumps as well. There is simply no reason to believe that this sort of installation, properly conducted, results in any material risk of groundwater or soil contamination by petroleum products.

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There is more to the potential risks to groundwater than catastrophic leaks of gasoline. I do know some states are phasing out the use of the additive MBTE [Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether], and I also know that the EPA is considering changing their specifications as to facilitiate the removal of a need for MBTE as an additive.

The problem is not just limited to leaking tanks. I've seen reports where a car accident that resulted in a 10 gallon gas leak contaminated 12 wells. I also know that just a few years ago in the town I lived in New Hampshire, they had to run public water to somewhere on the order of 50 homes in the vacinity of two gas stations. Their tanks were not leaking; the contamination came from the spillage that occurs everyday at self serve pumps. 1 drop of gasoline with the MBTE additive will contaminate 500 gallons of drinking water. There was enough spillage at those two gas stations to contaminate 50 wells in an area where the aquifer is 200 feet deep.

To believe that water contamination risks from gasoline additives rests soley in the hands of the storage tanks and pump systems is extremely naive, IMHO.

Feel free to google search for MBTE contamination and form your own opinions on the issue.

Oh!! Yes!!! I finally got it!!!

Lime Rock mining with, Dynamite, Earth Moving Dozers, Dumptrucks, and Backhoes all powered by Diesel fuel and operating within a 1 mile radius of the "Little River Cave" is acceptable.

Retail Mega-Store started by a lower middle class Oklahoma farmboy who started with nothing and created one of the top two or three American success stories in this century by offering lower prices, higher than average wages and frequented by lower income Families built next to "Alachua Sink" is totally unacceptable.

It took me awhile but it is all very clear to me know. I'm going to contact Walmart and see if they would like to purchase my property over by "Little River" and they could build there and avoid getting raked over the coals. I'll make a killing!! ::joy

Does anyone know if you can fit a Super Walmart on 5 acres??? No? Damn! I guess I'll have to call Walgreens then.

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

Oh!! Yes!!! I finally got it!!!

Lime Rock mining with, Dynamite, Earth Moving Dozers, Dumptrucks, and Backhoes all powered by Diesel fuel and operating within a 1 mile radius of the "Little River Cave" is acceptable.

Retail Mega-Store started by a lower middle class Oklahoma farmboy who started with nothing and created one of the top two or three American success stories in this century by offering lower prices, higher than average wages and frequented by lower income Families built next to "Alachua Sink" is totally unacceptable.

It took me awhile but it is all very clear to me know. I'm going to contact Walmart and see if they would like to purchase my property over by "Little River" and they could build there and avoid getting raked over the coals. I'll make a killing!! ::joy

Does anyone know if you can fit a Super Walmart on 5 acres??? No? Damn! I guess I'll have to call Walgreens then.

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This falls in the FWIW category,but several years ago I voiced a concern because it seemed that about the same time that the limerock pit became very active,visibility decreased at LR. But,this was at the same time we had the drought and the aquifer was at its lowest levels,and syphoning a lot of tannic water when it did flood. I asked a geologist who assured me that the water source for LR doesn't come from that area,and more likely wasn't affecting the system. I still have concern,and made mention of it again recently(on another forum). Another area that worries me is the expansion of the lime rock operation in Lafayette Co on Hwy 27. We all should have concern because with increased development there will be further encroachment on the caves we dive. Drive to Cow lately-I could fill a pick up truck full of the for sale signs of land.

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

Oh!! Yes!!! I finally got it!!!

Lime Rock mining with, Dynamite, Earth Moving Dozers, Dumptrucks, and Backhoes all powered by Diesel fuel and operating within a 1 mile radius of the "Little River Cave" is acceptable.

Retail Mega-Store started by a lower middle class Oklahoma farmboy who started with nothing and created one of the top two or three American success stories in this century by offering lower prices, higher than average wages and frequented by lower income Families built next to "Alachua Sink" is totally unacceptable.

It took me awhile but it is all very clear to me know. I'm going to contact Walmart and see if they would like to purchase my property over by "Little River" and they could build there and avoid getting raked over the coals. I'll make a killing!! ::joy

Does anyone know if you can fit a Super Walmart on 5 acres??? No? Damn! I guess I'll have to call Walgreens then.

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No it's not OK. Forgive me but I am only one human being. I cannot handle every cave and every problem. I have not been to Little River for over two years and I did not know about the Quarry. Why do you think that I would think that's OK? If you had been at one single talk I gave you would have clearly heard me state that I think there needs to be a State wide Underground Rivers protection act. I am trying to work on that issue. The only thing that I can ask of you is to keep informing people and try to get something done to stop it. I simply have too much going on to be able to handle that problem right now. Kelly and I are both trying to help caves when we can and as much as we can. Attacking us and putting us down doesn't help the situation. We need a united front to be able to deal with these problems. If you want more information on what to do you can call me and l can walk you through some steps that may be helpfull. No one who is involved in Cave Protection is doing this with evil intent. There are a lot of us out there now and we are forming a network of Cave Divers who are interested in doing what we can to stop this type of thing from happening. We can help with a lot of things if you decide to actually try to get something done. I was unable to help Gene Melton with the Cathedral issues because of time constraints. I am not able to do anything but offer advice to you about what to do in this situation. Please quit taking shots at me and the ongoing efforts at Mill Creek. I am doing the very best that I can do as a human being and I don't deserve this from you or anyone else. Cindy Butler

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Originally Posted by Spectre

Feel free to google search for MBTE contamination and form your own opinions on the issue.

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To add to this, a personal experience.
I worked at a gas station as a clerk. There are wells for the gasoline, and there are EPA observation wells. One night the tanker driver mistakenly pumped 10000 gallows of 87 octane into an EPA observation well. All the protective liners and magical technology to prevent contamination can fail from one stupid mistake. Food for thought.

S$% happens, and some of the pro-gas station types on here are out of their professional expertise I think.

Furthermore, just for the record, SRWMD has very limited powers over this whole affair, Basically just surface water impacts. Letter writing campaigns and such would be better directed at the City of Alachua (not county), and might not muddy the waters so much at SRWMD (excuse the horrible pun).

Regards, Drew Glasbrenner

I am FAR from a pro-gas-station type. Of course, you WOULD like gas for your car though, yes?

The MTBE issue is a good example of what happens when tree-huggers get too powerful and get to sell junk science to government.

Let me tell you a bit about MTBE - and Ethanol for that matter.

Once upon a time there was neither. Gasoline was, well, gasoline.

Then came CARB and anti-smog regulations. This first led to EGR, then fuel injection, then catalysts and finally fully-closed-loop engine control - what we have today.

Oxygenated fuels happened roughly at Step #1.5. It was MANDATED under federal law, with literally dozens of different blends made "required" for summer driving (when atmospheric inversion traps exhaust and tends to make smog) in various places around the country.

Only one small problem - the catalyst and closed-loop engine operation made the oxygenates basicaly worthless. Why? Because the point of the oxygenates was to insure that there was enough oxygen left in the charge AFTER it left the combustion chamber so that the fuel would continue to burn on the way out. With the catalysts and closed-loop fuel system, there was no excess fuel in the cylinder to start with, therefore, the oxygenates do basically nothing.

Today, there are, for all intents and purposes, NO cars on the road that are not operating closed-loop with a catalyst (your antique Packard notwithstanding)

But the laws were not changed. So we put literally TONS of MTBE into the fuel system, and its a toxic chemical. We also built an entire subsidized industry around ethanol. Both of these chemicals reduce the fuel content of gasoline, which decreases your mileage as well.

This is a big part of why gas is more expensive in the summer months - it cannot be moved from market to market in the summer to meet demand, because it has been formulated to the specific boutique requirements.

This was all under the radar until last summer, when this little storm called Katrina came visiting. In the aftermath, of course, there were severe gas shortages due to the refineries being knocked offline in the gulf states.

The federal government, in a little-noted regulatory move, lifted the boutique fuel requirements. This was done in an attempt to stop the spot shortages. Gasoline was shipped nationally over pipelines, tankers and rail cars that would not normally leave its market, and non-oxygenated gasoline was sold nationally for several months.

Can you find me one story about how there was a smog problem last summer? Nope. Why not? Because it didn't happen. Why? Because the MTBE and Ethanol, which were temporarily not there, don't help any more! Why not? Because your catalyst and OBD-II ECU on your engine reduce hydrocarbon and other smog-forming emissions to the point that there is very little coming out of your tailpipe other than carbon dioxide and water vapor, in terms of percentages.....

This is what happens when you try to kill ants with a sledgehammer. You have seen a roughly 20 cent/gallon rise in gas over the last few weeks. This is because the RFG rules are kicking in for the summer again. That's 20c/gal you're paying for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and what's worse is that if you spill any of that MTBE-containing gas on the ground you create a pollution problem that would not otherwise exist.

There's a lesson in here guys and gals - its that environmental concerns, while important, must be balanced by REASON.

BTW Florida is not an oxygenated fuel state and as such MTBE put into fuel for Florida sale is there for octane enhancement rather than pollution control. And, in terms of dangerous chemicals in gasoline, MTBE is not on top of the list.

The primary driver for gasoline contamination in groundwater in Florida is benzene, which is present in all gasoline, is a known carcinogen, and has a much lower action level than MTBE does as an environmental contaminent.

Finally, if you want to argue against accidental releases (E.g from auto accidents) you'd have to move both I75 and 441 in relationship to the cave system. A car accident that results in a gasoline spill is kinda unlikely in a parking lot.... but its fairly common on highways.....

Yawn......

Gosh Cindy..........I never mentioned any names. The old adage if the shoe fits........comes to mind. I appreciate what you do and I wasn't taking shots at you but at the ironies and inconsistancies of activism.
Since as far as I know, I don't personally know any of you I hold no personal animosity towards you or anyone else on this Forum, I only try and point out the things I see as Ironic and in some cases hippocritic and I most certainly do enjoy letting the air out of some body's pompous balloon. The key word here is "I" as in just my opinion. I'm not any smarter than most of you so it truley is just M.H.O.
By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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I install and sample these wells on occasion, and I have NEVER seen a check valve on a monitor well. NEVER. These wells are typically 2" PVC with a locking cap and sampled with a piece of tubing and a peristalic pump, something you can't do with a check valve in the way.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/waste/qui...Final-Ap15.pdf

If being right is uppity, I can live with that.

Drew

Hey, I thought that this forum was to talk and share experiences about caves and cave diving. This though is turning into a rather nasty environmental/anti commercialisation fight that probably has very little to do with caves.

May I suggest that you conduct your discussions elsewhere and that perhaps it is time for the moderators of this forum to pull the plug on this somewhat heated discussion.

Peter

Peter, Most people consider saving caves, getting caves open to the public and cave conservation a subject related to cave diving. As with any forum or conversation you can read them and or go on to another topic. The moderators are not here to keep you from getting bored. They are here to keep things civil. Cindy Butler

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

Gosh Cindy..........I never mentioned any names. The old adage if the shoe fits........comes to mind. I appreciate what you do and I wasn't taking shots at you but at the ironies and inconsistancies of activism.
Since as far as I know, I don't personally know any of you I hold no personal animosity towards you or anyone else on this Forum, I only try and point out the things I see as Ironic and in some cases hippocritic and I most certainly do enjoy letting the air out of some body's pompous balloon. The key word here is "I" as in just my opinion. I'm not any smarter than most of you so it truley is just M.H.O.
By the way Daedalus, All of the Observation/Sampling wells I've ever seen have a backflow/check valves installed so that liquid can flow only in one direction. E.P.A. and F.D.E.P. are Nazis when it comes to this sort of thing so I find it hard to believe that this occured. I'm not calling you dishonest but are you sure that you have all of the facts straight? It is nearly impossible to pump liquid against a modern backflow/RPZ. Did this happen a long time ago? Did it make the News?
Well....I applogize if I offended anyone. Some of you are overly uppity though.

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I'm sorry but I don't understand your post. Cindy

Then may I stand corrected. Perhaps we are talking about two different types of monitoring wells but since I'm not an installer of these wells I shall defer to your professional knowledge. It just didn't seem to make any sense that this could happen. Huh....Wells with no check valves.....Whoda thunk it? I'm just so danged uppity sometimes :-D

Many of you are very passionate about this issue and I was only wondering if there would be this same uproar if a Super Target, Sears, or Publix were being proposed for this site.
In all likelihood this store is going to be constructed regardless of all of your best efforts. Down here in South Florida we have an active environmental minority that litigates against every proposed development, road, bridge,etc. regardless of it benefitting a majority of the local community. We call them C.A.V.E. people. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. They have yet to halt a single project but they do manage to slow it down so that by the time they actually break ground the cost of the bridge, road etc is millions and millions more than the original proposed cost. Mostly tax dollars too.
I only hope that however this all turns out that it benefits the most people for the better with as little impact to the local environment as possible.

I shall now abscond back to my lair and never darken this forum on this subject ever again. :smt073

First, as I have stated several times. I am not anti WalMart. I am anti someone damaging the cave. I didn't move the cave under a WalMart so I could have an excuse to go to War with WalMart! Think what you will but no matter who developed out there or does develop out there I want them to be aware of the cave and take due precautions. I'm not sure how many ways and many times I have to say that. When I first started this my intention was only to inform the City of Alachua and Wal Mart about the cave and to please take it into consideration during building and why I felt it needed to be done. Both parties ignored me. I had to get help from experts and the community for them to pay attention to the problem. I may not have done that the way that you felt it should be done but it's the only way I knew how to get the point accross. Please don't think anyone is trying to run you off. I just didn't quite understand what you were trying to say. Input, even negative is helpful if it's done with two things. First actual knowledge of a subject, second the realization that you are talking to a fellow cave diver and frankly someone who can save your life in a cave some day. We are a very small community. If we treat each other with due respect while posting we can get our point accross without hurting each other so much. Cindy Butler

Cindy and all,
One of the reasons the NSS-CDS is unique is that it owns dive sites and caves to be used by the members for recreational, educational and scientific purposes. These sites were paid for and maintained with member donations and dues.

In the case of Mill Creek, it came to my attention that Wal-Mart was commencing the building of a Super Center and a transfer point for its merchandise within the area of the cave, if not above it. More alarming was that one of the contractors for Wal-Mart construction called Terrasystems, is a company that specializes in Dynamic Compaction for the purpose of compacting the soil around and under the footprint of the building site. Please see (http://www.terrasystems-inc.com/terr...correction.pdf).

Now this same outfit prepared the site in Knoxville that allowed Wal-Mart to build over sinkholes by demolishing the sinks. See ( http://www.terrasystems-inc.com/dcexp.htm ). Without any investigation or intervention that could be the same outcome that would incur damage to Mill Creek Sink, an NSS-CDS asset.
I applaud Cindy and the members of the CDS BoD who got the fire lit under the NSS to do something to secure the rights of their property from damage.

The thumbnail sketch of activity so far was to acknowledge that seeing the potential for damage is one thing, proof of this potential is another. Volunteers like Pete Butt did a dye trace leading the waters of the sink to Hornesby. This allowed leverage and/or permit challenges with the state DEP and SRMD. Drew Glasbrenner and other PGs studied the site and the karst and prepared the documentation Buford Pruitt carried to SRMD. There are numerous others who have pitched in.

In another forum, (some whom I see have posted here) nit-picked the living daylights out of those actively involved in preserving one of our dive sites. To those people I cannot overemphasize "do not waste our time." None of us that care about the cave have the spare time to have our wheels spun reading self serving unimportant minutia.

Its not about Wal-Mart! Its about saving Mill Creek from potential harm. What we need is more eyes more ears and more expertise because we cannot be everywhere at once. This responsibility falls to all cave divers not just the few that have carried the day so far. Either lead follow or get the hell out of the way.

I will post when I'm pissed.
/K

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

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Originally Posted by bmwcaves

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

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Thanks Brian for saying what alot of us were thinking. :partyman:

Again - potential for damage is one thing, actual damage is another.

When you are unwilling to actually acquire subject property to end threats you immediately paint yourselves as someone who wants to destroy the rights of others - but foist off the costs on yet STILL others.

Appropriate standards intended to prevent damage to the cave is not only ok with everyone I know (including myself), but is something I personally want to see, and have so expressed in my letter.

BUT - if your idea of "preventing damage" is to effectively rezone the property without rezoning it, you will not find acceptance here. That sort of attempt is odious.

The Nature Conservancy solves these sorts of problems all the time - by BUYING THE LAND. What I've seen so far is an attempt to delay, delay, delay and obfuscate in an attempt to make Walmart "give up" and go elsewhere, while not being willing to compensate the landowner.

Again - why not press Alachua to BUY the parcel from the current owner and turn it into a park? You get what you want, its a clean deal, there is no FUTURE risk, and nobody gets hurt.

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

I think so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

---

Why haven't YOU? These aren't people working for some kind of PETA organization who are simply running around trying to stir up trouble and cause problems for a big business that they don't support! They are just divers like you and me! They're doing the best they know how, in their free time, after working long days at their "real" jobs, and if you don't like the way they're going about it, then go about it differently yourself. And good luck getting Alachua to pay fair value for that land and turn it into a park, by the way. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

---

Are you suggesting that these people, who also have families and want to spend their free time diving like you and me should instead spend their time trying to get the government to "eminant domain" every piece of land with a sinkhole on it so that it never becomes a problem in the future?

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Geez, man, I've never met you, and hopefully we can have a non-internet conversation about our philosophies at some point, but even if you don't agree with their methods, strategies, or philosophies, at least give them the respect due to anyone who's sacrificing a lot of their personal time and investing a lot of themselves in a project that they believe in. No one's asking you to join anything or be a part of anything, and you're as free as any of us to go about this a different way if you want.

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bmwcaves

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

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Hey Brian, I agree we are not going to change the lepords spots. We are just trying to make sure that people know as much as possible about the real story instead of only being able to read the convoluted ego rantings. Cindy :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

---

Why haven't YOU? These aren't people working for some kind of PETA organization who are simply running around trying to stir up trouble and cause problems for a big business that they don't support! They are just divers like you and me! They're doing the best they know how, in their free time, after working long days at their "real" jobs, and if you don't like the way they're going about it, then go about it differently yourself. And good luck getting Alachua to pay fair value for that land and turn it into a park, by the way. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

---

Are you suggesting that these people, who also have families and want to spend their free time diving like you and me should instead spend their time trying to get the government to "eminant domain" every piece of land with a sinkhole on it so that it never becomes a problem in the future?

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Geez, man, I've never met you, and hopefully we can have a non-internet conversation about our philosophies at some point, but even if you don't agree with their methods, strategies, or philosophies, at least give them the respect due to anyone who's sacrificing a lot of their personal time and investing a lot of themselves in a project that they believe in. No one's asking you to join anything or be a part of anything, and you're as free as any of us to go about this a different way if you want.

Brian

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Thanks Brian

Nice post brianstclair!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brianstclair

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brian

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You summed it up well Brian, You can talk for me anytime! :D
We did have a local cavediver who knew the land owner try to negotiate a deal to make the sink area into a park. We found out that the land was tied up in a contract already. We were about two years too late. This is so typical of some people to damn us without knowing what has been tried or said, they speak out without having a clue about what is going on. Some people do that because they just don't know and actually want to know the anwsers, they just don't know how to ask. Some people just do that because to cause others pain and problems makes them feel better about themselves. BMW is right on the point that some people are best just ignored. Thanks for caring enough to post on this subject. You will be glad to know I just received an email from the City of High Springs addressed to the SRWM. The word is finally out and I can retire to days off diving soon. Cindy :D :D

Here's the problem guys and gals...

IF you're being honest - and this is not about WalMart, but ANY business that wanted to go there - you're trying to destroy the value of a piece of property, effectively stealing it from the landowner, while leaving him with an unmarketable piece of land and the property tax liability that comes with it.

IF you're being DISHONEST, and this is about WalMart, then you're interested in trashing both a deal that has been signed (that is, trashing the owner's rights) AND trashing a business you disagree with, but can't find a legitimate way to keep out of town.

In either case its a problem.

Why don't I raise the money and do this? Because I don't think it needs to be done. I believe that reasonable mitigation measures, most significantly dealing with runoff, are enough.

I further believe that if you succeed you will ultimately screw Alachua, because if you manage to cause a "taking" by destroying the value of the current owner's land you will have created a cause of action for him against the county, that he will sue for that diminished value (basically the entire value of his deal to sell the land!) and the county will ultimately be forced to pay.

WHEN that happens - not if - the county is going to be very upset with cave divers. Why? Because we will have our "name" all over it, and we will be identified as the group that cost the county several million dollars by stopping a project they wanted. We will also be identified as the reason that the employment didn't come to Alachua, the sales tax money didn't show up, the related businesses are not there, etc.

Cooperation from the county after an event like that? You're kidding, right? You want to make mortal enemies? This sort of forced expense is a great way to do it - especially for a county that doesn't have a whole lot of extra funds sitting around to start with.

This is all about private property rights guys and gals. You folks think they're entirely unimportant - that you can just take them whenever you'd like. It does not work that way in the real world. You're living in a fantasy land if you think that the landowner is not entitled to seek compensation for the diminished value as a result of a government action that effectively renders the zoning he had void - and which formed the basis of value when he acquired and has maintained the land, along with the property taxes he has paid on that land, zoned as it is, to date.

He is. This is not just "case law", or "I wish" law, this is The United States Constitution we're talking about, and there is no question that he is absolutely entitled to that compensation.

Who's going to pay for it? Those of you who are raising hell now - how many of you live in Alachua's taxing authority, and thus will end up paying your share of this when, not if, the check comes due? ANY?

I bet not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

Here's the problem guys and gals...

IF you're being honest - and this is not about WalMart, but ANY business that wanted to go there - you're trying to destroy the value of a piece of property, effectively stealing it from the landowner, while leaving him with an unmarketable piece of land and the property tax liability that comes with it.

IF you're being DISHONEST, and this is about WalMart, then you're interested in trashing both a deal that has been signed (that is, trashing the owner's rights) AND trashing a business you disagree with, but can't find a legitimate way to keep out of town.

In either case its a problem.

Why don't I raise the money and do this? Because I don't think it needs to be done. I believe that reasonable mitigation measures, most significantly dealing with runoff, are enough.

I further believe that if you succeed you will ultimately screw Alachua, because if you manage to cause a "taking" by destroying the value of the current owner's land you will have created a cause of action for him against the county, that he will sue for that diminished value (basically the entire value of his deal to sell the land!) and the county will ultimately be forced to pay.

WHEN that happens - not if - the county is going to be very upset with cave divers. Why? Because we will have our "name" all over it, and we will be identified as the group that cost the county several million dollars by stopping a project they wanted. We will also be identified as the reason that the employment didn't come to Alachua, the sales tax money didn't show up, the related businesses are not there, etc.

Cooperation from the county after an event like that? You're kidding, right? You want to make mortal enemies? This sort of forced expense is a great way to do it - especially for a county that doesn't have a whole lot of extra funds sitting around to start with.

This is all about private property rights guys and gals. You folks think they're entirely unimportant - that you can just take them whenever you'd like. It does not work that way in the real world. You're living in a fantasy land if you think that the landowner is not entitled to seek compensation for the diminished value as a result of a government action that effectively renders the zoning he had void - and which formed the basis of value when he acquired and has maintained the land, along with the property taxes he has paid on that land, zoned as it is, to date.

He is. This is not just "case law", or "I wish" law, this is The United States Constitution we're talking about, and there is no question that he is absolutely entitled to that compensation.

Who's going to pay for it? Those of you who are raising hell now - how many of you live in Alachua's taxing authority, and thus will end up paying your share of this when, not if, the check comes due? ANY?

I bet not.

---

Actually, I live within the Alachua city limits and pay Alachua taxes.

I also should point out that if we're talking about honesty here, it is dishonest for you to represent yourself as a cave diver, because you have no formal certification reflecting that.

Now if you choose to represent yourself as an Intro to Cave diver who decides to exceed his training without regard for the consequences to himself or others that would be honest.....

Safe diving,

Rich

More personal attacks... why am I not surprised? Don't expect me to respond to them - I won't.

Again: Why didn't you folks get together and buy this land before the Walmart was proposed? You knew the land was zoned commercial and it was over the cave, right? This is not a surprise!

Suddenly, out of nowhere, there's all this concern - where there was none before. Nobody wants to deal with that, nor do you want to deal with what you're actually doing here - trying to, in effect, steal a few million from a private landowner.

The problem of course is that you can't do that. Government actions that diminish or destroy the value of private property for a public purpose are allowed under the Constitution, but they create an absolute liability in the amount of the damage done for that government entity.

If you succeed the county will be forced to pay up, and you better believe that I, and many others, will be absolutely certain to "pin the tail on the donkey" when it comes to who is responsible for the economic damage to the county government when - not if - it happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

More personal attacks... why am I not surprised? Don't expect me to respond to them - I won't.

---

I'm also not going to get into it, but why would you think that was a personal attack? I made no judgements, but was just restating facts that you yourself have stated on numerous occasions.

Heck, I'm just providing food for thought to the people who are reading this and aren't aware of all the factors involved.... :D

Safe diving,

Rich

Cards do not a person make.

What you do makes you who you are.

If you dive in caves, you are a cave diver. Only those who would devolve down what someone is to how much money they've spent would argue otherwise.

That sort of elitism makes me ill...... and that same ill-will attaches to those organizations that they are affiliated with.

Something to think about Rich.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genesis

Cards do not a person make.

What you do makes you who you are.

If you dive in caves, you are a cave diver. Only those who would devolve down what someone is to how much money they've spent would argue otherwise.

That sort of elitism makes me ill...... and that same ill-will attaches to those organizations that they are affiliated with.

Something to think about Rich.....

---

I had a great time scootering, diving and chatting with you at JB, Karl.

Unfortunately I can no longer do that (at least the diving part!), since I've signed an ethical agreement stating I would not dive with people beyond their level of training......

As you know well, I have no personal issues with you whatsoever, this is a free country and you can do what you like. I'm just here voicing my opinion, as are you :D

Something to think about also.....

Safe diving,

Rich

Hmmm... this topic looks like its gone south... or about to... maybe we should lock it up? Finger on the lock key..

Oh no... don't lock it at all!!! I'm having fun seeing how far it will go!

:-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I am in support of Cindy, Jim, Drew, Buford, and many people who have worked in the background with the intent of preserving a cave system, something that is slowly becoming endangered as time progresses. I compliment these people who stand in the public spotlight and meet frustration over what they see as being right, not for personal profit.

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Me too, and i have been a DUI member since 04 :lifter ("LOL")

I have done some soul searching over this subject the last few days. I presented a cave location to prevent damage to that cave and potential damage that building over that cave could have on the environment and the City of Alachua, period. Since that time others have joined in the effort to try to assure the cave is protected and that any problems are delt with before they happen for once. We have Cave Divers, Housewifes, Geologists, Environmental Experts, Phd Biologists, DEP springs experts, Hydrologists, local public leaders (including ones from Alachua) and many others who have looked at the situation and agree it's a problem. These people are well reputed and very well spoken. They didn't get into this because they thought I was making all this up to mess up the City of Alachua or getting my kicks off trashing WalMart. They looked at what was presented and formed their own independent insights on what was happening and are acting on the behalf of the cave and the environment. The positive response has been overwhelming and supportive from the cave diving community. The communtiy in general has been gratefull for the information provided. For once Thankfully/Hopefully we may actually prevent something from happening that can be harmfull. It's way past the issue of what store is building on the site. Now not only are people looking at what can be done for a cave for once, they are also looking at the exsisting problems. I see this as a win win for any City and know what happens here will turn out well for all involved. This will be my last post on this matter. I will post announcements of any further meetings etc. I want to thank all of you who have supported this effort and me personally through what are some very trying times. I see this as having a postive outcome and the reason that will happen is because of people involved and from the efforts of many of the divers on this forum. Thanks again, Cindy Butler

I tend to agree with Brian's post that it isn't worth the effort to answer some of the really negative posts. However, there may be a battle to be fought because there is a lot of money and effort at stake on the part of the developer of the parcels in question. Suppose they stick their toe in the water to see how cave divers really feel? I wouldn't want them to do a Google search and think that the extra-terrestrial posting here has the voice of the cave community. Therefore, regardless of what some people think about the ramifications of our actions "viz a viz" Alachua County vs. Cave Divers, efforts need to be made to ensure the cave is safe.

Alachua County is one of the most progressive counties in the state. We have the high ground on a moral issue ie: the potential for destruction of a cave. We are taking a positive approach by making engineering suggestions for the developer to use caution not only because destruction of a cave in Florida is a criminal offense but water is an asset belonging to all the people of the state. We are on the right side of the demographics because 35% of Alachua County residents have four or more years of college and express deep concerns about the environment.

As long as we remain focused, these factors will put us on the right side of the appointed and elected officials because that's the way the bureaucracy works on this planet.

Regards /Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

35% of Alachua County residents have four or more years of college and express deep concerns about the environment.

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What the hell does that mean?

It means they weren't all smart enough to finish in just four years :-D

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

35% of Alachua County residents have four or more years of college and express deep concerns about the environment.

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What the hell does that mean?

---

It means that politicians see Alachua County residents/voters as those that tend to side on conservation issues.

More importantly, yesterdays intervention by Florida's Attorney General supporting the efforts to save Wakulla from cave and water damage from above on property owned by others should be a wake up call to politicians and bureaucrats involved in the commercial permitting process.
As pointed out by Kelly and Cindy it may have impact on the permits sought that may affect Cathedral.

/Ken

Some of you folks are pretty funny.... and your shift in statements have been too.

Reasonable mitigation - that is, preventing damage - is just that - reasonable. I've supported that from the get-go back in October when this first became a known issue in the community.

But some have done much more than that. They have, effectively, pushed a position that amounts to a ban on this development - any development - of this parcel.

That is a taking of the land folks. It is un-American. You cannot take a person's private property and suddenly deem it "protected" without compensation. This isn't a matter of what you think, I think, or whether it "feels good" or not. It is a matter of the US Constitution.

Now you CAN press for such measures, BUT if you succeed there will be major ramifications for the government organs involved, as they must pay the landowner for the diminuation of his value. Again, this is not a matter of what you'd like; its a matter of what the law IS.

The situation with Wakulla is entirely different. There you have a sprayfield which is ALSO being used by government. They'd have to "pay themselves", effectively, for that dimuation. And, for the record, I'm in favor of stopping that pollution source.

It seems that either some of the posters here are being dishonest - that is, they're raising hell publically to try to get others to write letters with the intent of stopping all development on this parcel - but they won't take that position themselves - or they're talking out both sides of their mouths. One has to wonder if plausible deniability is at play here.

I would hope not - but perhaps - just perhaps - an FOIA to see exactly what sort of comments have been filed needs to go in - and who's names are on them.

http://highspringsherald.com/article...ews/news09.txt

Safe diving,

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich

http://highspringsherald.com/articles/2006/03/30/news/news09.txt

Safe diving,

Rich

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That sort of concern - and scrutiny - is perfectly fine. In fact, I like it. Runoff issues are the one item I've been able to identify as being "real" - and worthy of concern.

As an aside Rich, "Welcome to the Machine" - and when the gasbag is done, you can dive with me on that "legally" - since I will indeed have met all the requirements for certification on the unit as determined by its manufacturer - and that's the industry standard.... :-D

Quote:

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I would hope not - but perhaps - just perhaps - an FOIA to see exactly what sort of comments have been filed needs to go in - and who's names are on them.

---

Oh my GOD.....NO !!!!

Not the dreaded FOIA threat !!!!!
Please we beg of you, don't go an expose us for who we really are.
I don't know how I could take it if people knew I had made a comment in favor of protecting a spring, a water source, a cave or a fragile ecosystem.....

We'd never be able to fool anyone again !!!!!!!!!!

"Trembling in my fins"


Brian

That's a good one Brian! Guess my secrets out! Darn. Cindy :D