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Some friends and I are exploring an old mine shaft. However, we have hit water. Before we try to pump the water out, we were considering having a cave diver take a look beneath the surface to make sure there is no significant water intrusion that we cannot detect. Are there cave divers that would be willing to do this kind of a thing? And, if so, how much does such a thing cost?
Thanks,
Blake
Sounds very interesting. I've done a little bit of mine diving and I wonder, are there no plans available for you to deduct what may or may not be below the water intrusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
I would think most cave divers willing to dive an old mine will be willing to dive it for free. I got to dive a Mine La Motte in Missouri this summer. It was awesome!
Where is the mine (General location)? Do you have permission to be there? It's considered bad form to go to caves without permission. I assume it's the same with mines.
Presuming you have permission to be on the land and the shaft appears stable I'd be willing to poke around for you. Pm me if you have any questions. I presume since you say you're in Tampa it's nearby.
No, we have looked for plans, but this mine shut down in 1903. So existing references to it are sparse. And we have been unable to find any maps of it.
The mine is located in the Black Hills of South Dakota. It is on federal lands so we would not be doing anything that required permission.
I was really wondering what mines were in Florida... I visited the Black Hills when I was a kid. I think I went to my first cave there. Wind Cave? Beautiful area but way too far away for me. Any conventions planned around there?
Yep. The South Dakota Speech-Language-Hearing Association is planning their annual convention as we speak! http://www.sdslha.org/index.php/convention/Quote:
Originally Posted by vpicaver
:P
I speak and hear languages. Well, a language anyway. Let's go!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
My wife and I have been to Jewel Cave. And, yes, it is beautiful country out there.
It is far-flung form Florida. But if anyone is interested, please let me know.
Blake
Cool area. There's some neat stuff around there. If I were you I'd offer flight and incidentals to anyone willing to go considering the rather......"interesting" state of most old mines, especially considering it's nowhere near most cave divers.
Modern mines like the Bell Island expedition are generally of well-known pedigree, at least insofar as hazards are concerned. Who knows what's kicking around a mine that closed in 1903!!!! Seems like every year here in Arizona either someone is getting trapped, there's a cave in, or someone steps on a rattlesnake crawling around in an abandoned mine.
I lived in the Black Hills most of my life before moving to Florida. Found a lot of mines hiking. Most of them are very unstable and you are tempting fate by entering them. Also don't get caught tresspassing in a mine on federal property.
?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
If that was the case then Big Dismal here I come.
I don't know much about them but I posted once about entering a water filled mine that I found and was informed to have the water tested for contaminants before entering.
I don't dive mines anymore. I dove a few back in my early diving days. I have had zero viz on exit, due to percolation. I have had stuff fall near me. The worst was diving a mine one day, and coming back a week later, and finding a boulder the size of a car on the line.
As others have mentioned, mines are a rather special kind of cave. Man-made, they do not have the years to get stable as most water-carved caves do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Yes, please get the water tested for contaminants.
When a caver-diver explores a cave, and then dives a water-filled passage, it is called sump diving. Generally, such divers would be happy to help you to explore.
Perhaps you would modify the title to show "Sump diver"? I am not a sump diver, but they tell some fantastic stories.
Thanks to all of you who have posted various concerns. It is true that a man-made, underground passage warrants caution. We believe it to be very stable because the mine is cut into slate bedrock.
I tried to change the title, but was unable to do so.
What would you like it changed to? FWIW, I am a sump diver, but I don't dive in mines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
You may want to search the Royal Mtn range expeditions to the flooded silver mines above tree line in Frisco, Colorado posted on here a few years ago. Personally i have poked around in them & the standing support timbers were rotten & unstable. Not a good dive site !
I changed the title to add "Abandoned Mine." Hope that meets with everyone's approval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
If you could change it to "Sump Diver Needed for Abandoned Mine" that would be great, thanks!
There are no support timbers in this mine. It is dug into solid slate bedrock.
Better check about diving on Federal land. Here in MO you have to have all kinds of permits to get for all the springs we have on Federal land.
We can hike all over the land, bike, canoe, and many other things but not dive with out a permit and some Federal land that you can dive you must have some training from the Feds.
SLIM
I believe people have developed medical issues from mine diving... get the water teste
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Get the water tasted? :vom:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
Haha! [emoji1]Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard
Get the water lab tested not taste tested so you can keep your testes. [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
We intend to test the water.
Doesn't anyone have interested in helping????
In a mine, in the far cold north, on federal land with no permit? Probably not :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Ah. I thought the explorer types might want to help him through the process.
Normally we would, but abandoned mines are inherently unstable, and ones on federal land are permit only, and the permits are very difficult to get. Add to that the possibility of contaminated water, and you get very few volunteers. The other issue, at least for the hard core explorers is that mines aren't "virgin". There is nothing there that isn't already known, and mapped. Not to mention there aren't many sump divers living in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
And it's in South Dakota.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
UFFDA !!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
That tears it right there , don't ya know , fer sure.
Jeano
I do not know the laws in regard to diving on federal land. Insofar as mining is concerned, we are allowed to do whatever we want without a permit of any kind so long as we are not using any power equipment. And our next step is to get a permit because we are at the stage where we are ready to start bringing in heavier equipment. As to the stability of the mine, as I have stated heretofore, it is cut into solid bedrock. It does not have a single timber in it for support. It is stable. It is in the north. If South Dakota is the 'far' north for you, then I suppose it is too cold for you and you ought not to consider it. The water appears to be fine from a casual perspective. Of course, we will have it tested because we plan on pumping it out. I have already had four different individuals express an interest in private messages. So it is not like no one is interested in doing this. I appreciate your support Jax. :) So we will choose someone who is up to it, qualified, and not easily swayed by naysayers!
I used to camp in a mine that was cut into solid bedrock. I was there one weekend, and the next weekend when I went back, there was a boulder the size of a car right in the middle of my campsite. Abandoned mines are NOT stable. One other thing, the mines cut into solid bedrock have bolts set in them to keep slabs from breaking loose. If the mine is active, those bolts are inspected on a regular basis. Abandoned mines may have bolts rust out, especially underwater. You are taking a big risk going into any abandoned mine, especially one full of water. Like i said in an earlier post, I have learned the dangers of mines firsthand, and am lucky to still be alive. As long as you post here trying to sucker uninformed divers into diving an abandoned mine, I will continue to point out the flaws in your "logic".Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Experienced folk telling you the reality is not naysaying, it is helping you to make an informed decision. This is a very important difference, especially when your plan may involve risking the health or the life of some one other than your self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Safe diving - Jeff
Sent via
No one is trying to "sucker" anyone, and I resent the implication because I am an honest man. Safety is one thing, and I wholeheartedly agree with being cautious. But we have been exploring this mine for 3 years. And to have anyone pretend that they know more about this particular site than I do is just ludicrous. Yes, there are general principles that are always true. Nonetheless, there are always exceptions. And that is why one investigates the particulars. None of you are aware of those particulars. And to insinuate that I would put someone's life at risk is insulting. I thought I would get some good advice here. A friend of mine recommended this site. And for the most part, I am. However, some of you are borderline rude. There is no need for that.
I might add that we have found not a single sign of any 'pinning' in the rock faces. And in the numerous explorations of the site we have seen no discernible changes in the stability of the site.
In case anyone does not know what "pinning" is, that is the setting of posts into the rock face to stabilize it.
Something to consider before pumping out the water, is that the water helps support the rock. Pumping the water out will create roughly 30-40% more stress on the ceilings that are underwater now. The 30-40% is roughly the difference in densities between water vs rock and air vs rock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Spec Gravities:
Air .002
Water 1.00
Shale 2.6-2.8
Thanks, Jon, we are aware of this factor. :)
And thanks to those of you who have messaged me in private about your interest to dive this mine. :)
So how is everyone doing today?
What was the mineral extracted from the mine please?
Gold and silver.
Gold you say, errr is there any leftQuote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Only beyond the sump :rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
...Dead men tell no tales. But at least temporarily glowing is a perk.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
true but gold mine does sound a hell of a lot better then lead mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
The Grim Reaper Sign says "there is nothing in this cave worth dying for, except for the gold, except for the gold"
The research I have done of the extant literature indicates that there is definitely still gold in this mine. The samples that we have taken above the sump have gold in them, but in very small amounts. We have been unable to get samples from beneath the water level. That is why we are presently investigating the possibility of removing the water.
Any other questions?
Is this a commercial endeavor?
If I wasn't in mexico, I would do it.
This is potentially a profitable venture.
Ok, it seems you were implying such but I think it's a bit sneaky to not be up front about this being commercial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
There's a big difference between what we do for recreation and what companies are wanting to do for profit. There are inactive mines that people dive for recreation, but in the general case it's a really bad idea. I'd discourage anybody from doing this unless you're paying up front for travel plus time.
I'd suggest turning more towards a commerical diving site for what you need. I certainly hope that our nice little corner of the internet doesn't start turning into a commercial divers bulletin board, there's plenty other places for that.
-Jon
Oooh,wow... in that case I should retract any previous concerns...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Sent via
I'm being semi-serious here when I suggest a possible new reality TV show.
Anyone know what OSHA implications are? I seem to remember a story about El Cazador.
Wow, really? Another person that is going to insinuate that my character is less than honorable? There are four of us exploring this abandoned mine. None of us are wealthy and none of us are miners by trade. We are just simple and HONEST men. There is no intent to defraud or deceive or cheat anyone out of anything on our part. At this point, this is a hobby for us that we are trying to turn into something more serious. We are not a company. I was told that there were divers who would be interested in doing this for the adventure of it. So far that is all this has been for us. If it turns into more for us or anyone who 'freely' chooses to associate with us, then that remains to be seen.
..Not sure if that was directed at me... but, there was no insinuation or accusation in my post or intent. Only that there are some folks on here with a background in commercial diving that might know something about the OSHA implications (regulatory). I am not aware of any fraud in the El Cazador salvage, but it is my understanding that there was some issue where OSHA obstructed some of the initial work even though it was not a traditional "contract" work for hire type arrangement.
Hey, no hard feelings from me.. Sounds kind of neat if you can pull it off. I would just say be careful. (in respect to both safety and regulatory perspectives)
No, Adler, I was referring to the use of the word "sneaky". You are fine. As I have said before, I have no problem with sincere safety concerns, good suggestions, or caution. These things are all wise.
So have you been awarded the mining rights to the abandoned lode claim? You've gotta get the rights to the claim from BLM as they are responsible for all subsurface minerals. You may be free to explore without permits, but as soon as you want to start taking stuff out and making it a commercial endeavor, you start getting into the legal aspects of a working mine.
We are in the process of securing the claim with BLM.
And the Forestry Service, I might add.
I just saw this thread. (Haven't been on for awhile) I would suggest you run your list of possible divers by FW privately and get his opinion on who is best up to the task.
FW doesn't dive in mines, especially ones on BLM, or Forest Service land, without permission.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepairmike
Exploring an old mine doesn't mean you "know" ANYTHING about it.
Do you or do any team members have mining degrees? How about geotechnical engineering? Any mining experience even?
Sounds like you are trying to get others to join you on what very respected and experienced people have pointed out is a bad idea.
Dear mdax,
I have already determined, prior to your post, not to concern myself with detractors. I do not have time for people who are less than helpful. And I am weary of my character being impugned by individuals who do not "know" me. You speak of knowing and then exhibit a complete disregard for the very principle you seem to be enslaved by.
Who really knows anything? You speak of things you do not really seem to have thought through. Philosophically speaking, we cannot be certain of much of anything beyond the natural sciences. Granted, this site falls within that purview. But you have not been there. I have on many occasions. So I know a lot more than you about it. You know nothing in this particular regard. Therefore, your implication that I do not know anything about the site more aptly describes your own state - not mine. If this site were a mathematical equation, then it could be fully known. But not everything can be neatly defined in a lab.
If you had read all of the posts in this thread you would already have your answers to the questions regarding our education and experience relative to mining. But, once again, you seem to know nothing. This appears to be a theme with you. I have a degree in history. I will add that because I do not believe that I have heretofore mentioned it. I am an educated man. I have the aptitude for learning. And I have applied myself to this venture. I have researched this particular site and the processes with which we need to be familiar in many universities and repositories including the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology in Rapid City.
I have already stated in these posts that this is a hobby for us. I have never claimed to be a mining expert. There has been no attempt to defraud anyone. In fact, the exact opposite is true. I have been forthright and honest. If you were half as straightforward as me, then you would not hide behind your halfhearted accusations. Rather you would simply speak as a man and say what is on your mind directly.
I believe it is a good idea. We are getting the necessary permits. We are testing the water. We are taking every precaution that a reasonable person should take. And if you, or anyone else for that matter, does not think it is a good idea, then no one is twisting your arm. So ease up with the judgments. As I have said before, legitimate concerns and helpful suggestions are more than welcome. But comments that only serve to cast a shadow on my character are soundly rejected.
I know a lot more than you concerning this subject. And I, unlike you in my regard, do not presume to know ANYTHING about you except that your use of all caps, quotation marks and question marks indicate that you could stand to be a bit more tactful. Try to be nicer. :)
I will no longer be responding to anyone who is less than respectful. So if I ignore you, perhaps you should take that as a hint that you need to attend a finishing school or something...
Blake, I don't much care what YOU do, but you aren't going to tempt any more divers to risk their lives in a mine. This thread is closed, and you no longer have posting rights on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
I have said it before, and I am saying it again, mine diving is dangerous. While it is overhead, it is very different from cave diving, just like wreck and ice diving are different than cave diving.
When I looked up Blake's profile to remove his posting rights, I found his email address: knighttemplaroftherealm@xxxx.com IMHO calling yourself Knight Templar says you are a nut case.