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Discussing this with a friend whose dove for a long time Dan Howitt I disagree with him tho I think it's good to push the limits and learn from mistakes. Otherwise seems I'd be stuck in the same old routine. Or is this foolish? Curious of your opinions thanks much.
https://www.facebook.com/divecaves/p...55518840555725
One of the best articles on cave diving I've ever read... ;)
Safe diving,
Rich
Thatsa great article I read a few paragraphs and already is great, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Sometimes pushing limits and progressive learning can seem like a fine line. Inorder to grow as a cave diver it is good to slowly add more, and assess your performance,but this is something done at your pace,not at the behest of a goal or a group. I felt wreck divers used to have the best paradigm of progressive penetration, with adding a little bit more on each dive, and progressively learning. There are obvious things that are pushing the limits, and nowadays with technology allowing what used to be dives a few years ago that were highly technical,they are very (deceptively) easy. One thing to keep in mind, there are two components to cave diving. There is the physical component which constitutes skills and gear, and there is the mental part. Many have theorized the mental component is a large majority of our skill set, and that one needs learning,which hints to a slow progressive nature,otherwise we would be doing differential equations right after learning multiplication table. Please remember,learning from your mistakes in cave diving can be terminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by oolp
I agree with Kelly. The mental/emotional component becomes the driving factor once you have progressed to a certain point, IE, your physical condition is satisfactory, you have had sufficient training and mentoring and you have good reliable gear.
At that point it is all about progressive learning and diving with in your capabilities. Sadly, the majority of cave diving accidents for the last many years are because of poor decision making.
I definitely think you're onto something. My experience in other hobbies, especially the more "extreme" ones, have taught me a lot of valuable lessons. One lesson was nearly devastating, and it got me to quit that hobby that day. Pushing limits isn't a bad thing at all, as long as the limits being pushed are done so intelligently and thoughtfully and as safely as possible. Flight testing an aircraft's envelope: Finding the stall speed is fine, given altitude. Finding an aircraft's stall speed at 100ft isn't fine. Doing so at 100ft as a new pilot without an experienced buddy with the plane slightly overweight is incredibly dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
My biggest lesson was learning to enjoy the dives more. I started off trying to get as much in-cave time as possible, at the cost of enjoyment. Worrying about goals, numbers, penetration, or (in my case) getting my "money's worth" out of trips will ruin your experience. I've started focusing on enjoying the dives, as well as using each dive to focus on one aspect of my diving for improvement. That builds up a good solid foundation, and without the pressure of goals it frees you up to take a more measured approach to progression.
I think the question really is, what limit do you want to push?
You want to push the limits of gas planning by trying to calculate flow rates and distance traveled so you can use more than 1/3 on the way in, hopefully compensated by your speed on the way out? Dumb idea, we know thirds is already as liberal as you should be. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because carrying extra gas is so ridiculously easy, or rebreathers are just a few months or years of savings away.
You want to push the limits of navigation by not tying in any of your jumps? Dumb idea, we know that caves are subject to silt outs, lights have tendencies to die, etc. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because at best, you spend a few extra minutes doing a lost line drill and get out with a few extra minutes of deco. Tying the line takes seconds.
You want to push MOD or EAN? Well, we know that sometimes, you can dive with a ridiculously higher PO2 and do fine. Other times, people have convulsed and died on a po2 of 1.4. There’s no possible way to predict which way you’ll be that particular day. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because oxygen and air and even helium are affordable, and gas mixing apps are available for any modern phone, so even if you are mixing yourself, you can figure it out easily. Diving air at depth doesn’t save you much, diving high o2 to reduce deco cuts your dive shorter by increasing your o2 clock, not really much to gain, only a lot to lose.
You want to push the limit by not carrying backup lights? Well, if you follow all the other rules this one should be perfectly survivable…but why?? Backup lights are cheap, useful for camping trips or bicycling, and just fun to have (am I the only one with a flashlight in every drawer of the house?) They are tiny and don’t bother you at all in the water. Again, no gain to you or the sport.
You want to push the limits by volunteering to cleanup a sink basin or build some steps or repair a sign on a trail or pick up trash in the parking lot? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by improving our image and reducing our impact on mother nature.
You want to push the limits by collecting water samples from various points in the cave every week for a year as part of a rigorous scientific study working with a local grad student? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by increasing the public knowledge of our drinking water supplies.
You want to push the limits by planning a circuit dive with safety bottles and multiple stages, and a backup exit plan, conducted over 2 days with a stop at the Great Outdoors for wings afterwards? That’s awesome. You’ll build your own knowledge of how to do a circuit dive safely, increase your and your buddy’s skill, and enjoy a good meal as well.
Same routine when it comes to standard safety practices, is a very good thing. No car manufacturer is pushing the limits by removing ABS, or windshield wipers. They are pushing limits by finding new materials which help people survive in a crash, and they test them with dummies, so that nobody dies. Taking away safety steps with real people in real caves leads to real deaths.
Same routine when it comes to never helping the community, or never carefully learning how to do new types of dives, is a bad thing.
Either way, consider if you want your epitaph to say “tho if he’d done it different, he’d still be alive!” ;)
Thanks JahJahwarrior, like button still needed.
Just found like button!!! [emoji106][emoji106]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oolp
Quote:
Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior
Appreciated a ton. Thumbs up. Two thumbs way up.
I think the limit depends a lot on your preparation, support team, and plan. Limit one day could be well beyond the limit another day. The failure to recognize yourself at your limit is probably the problem.
Recently I found myself in a cave with more gas than I had had the last time I was in that same location. I had planned, and executed exactly how I wanted to but I kept finding myself justifying in my head how much additional bailout and time to spend when it hit me that I had reached the limit for the day. Silly really. But I didn't really laugh until I got out of the cave. Oh well. Another day, another "vacation"... :-D
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To be 100% honest I do far more complicated dives than I used to but I also am very sensitive to how I feel and others as far as the dive.
I like the dive plan to be clear and specific if anyone diving with has issues we alter the plan till it fits.
If on one of these dives and we all agree we have extra time / gas / etc. we will explore within reason only if we all are on the same page.
Ive also been on the way in relatively close to entrance and pulled the plug, gear malfunctions, or a member acting unusual or not normal.
My cave dives are tempered by many variables some are not easily seen till your underway.
Ive had some incredible experiences with buddies when the plan was not what it started to be.
There are some remarkable places in familiar caves that most swim right on by.
On the pushing realm it is rarely that, but more progressional by the rules.
Ive not seen pushing limits be rewarding to much of the time.
Physically Ive pushed it a few times while training when I felt ill but never if I was beyond being able to focus clearly.
Once I started making dives very clearly planned and relaxed Ive gotten farther with less gas funny how that works.
It takes a while to get there but what is the hurry in the first place? Its no race but rather the ride in and out!
Have I had dives that there were some "Oh Shxt" moments? Sure have.
Personally I love my buddies and family risks that can be managed within reason are ok.
Crazy plans or blowing gas plan is not acceptable anytime!
Its far to day to chill and take plenty of gas and relax take our time and see how it goes.
Happy dive is Happy Life, I find ending a dive with a smile is far better than drowning!
JCG
First, what is pushing limits?
A person who wants to do a cave course (cavern, into, full cave) in 1 week or 2 weeks is in my eyes not pushing limits. Some divers can do this, but not all. But why slow down a diver who is good enough to do this?
Some divers can learn fast and have steep learning curves. Not all divers can of course.
A person who thinks I know all, no lines/reels/jumps needed is pushing limits in a bad way in my eyes and then accidents happen. So if you mean this with pushing limits, then don’t do that.
A diver who thinks I can go further than the 1/3 rule because always too much gas, please stop cave diving. This way of pushing limits I don’t agree.
Just follow an experienced diver who says you can do this too. Not a good way of pushing limits.
No lines, no marks, not enough gas, follow and not think, that are ways to let accidents happen.
Go with an experienced diver who explains you how you can do such dives too and then go with him as mentor, but always selfthinking: a good way of pushing limits.
Building up experience after your full cave course and go further step by step: do it. Maybe there comes a moment you think I want to do an advanced cave course, then do it. Maybe this moment never comes because you build up your experience yourself.
For almost every step in diving there are courses. Some are useful for you, some not. Take the ones you think you need.
And never forget: you dive for fun. If you like to dive every week the same dive, then do it. There is never a need to go further.