P II

Been lurking and learning lately but PII came up in conversation Saturday night and no one could agree about where it was.... If you look on the map for P1, you see it right down the run... but then where is PIII ??

From the map it appears short, could someone enlighten me? it is between PIII and PI on the spring run? What is is like? Is there gold line? is it so low and silty I really don't even want to look? I did several different searches and could only get info on P1 and PIII.

Just curious,

Tim

I am certainly no expert on Peacock as I don't have that many dives there. A few years ago I went to P3 on the way out I was poking around the holes in the run. I went up inside little opening and ran into line. I was told this is P2 and it connects with P3. It wasn't big from what I remember and definitely didn't have gold line. It is basically out in front of the flat rocks to the left of the parking lot at P1. I would say sidemount would definitely work better in there from what I remember.

So if that is PII at the left of the parking lot, where is PIII ?? because your description is where I was told PIII was. And to look at the map it appears to be a lead in to the stop sign for the olsen line?

Go down the P1 Main Line (toward Pothole) and there is a jump to the right about p250'. Take it and you will get to a "well." Go down the well and you will hit about 85'. Keep going and you will see that you are getting shallower and shallower, until you think you are nearing an exit. Ten or so years ago it pinched off such that you couldn't exit, but I don't know about now.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

So if that is PII at the left of the parking lot, where is PIII ??

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P2 is in the P1 spring run. The one down to the left of the parking lot is P3.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

I am certainly no expert on Peacock as I don't have that many dives there. A few years ago I went to P3 on the way out I was poking around the holes in the run. I went up inside little opening and ran into line. I was told this is P2 and it connects with P3. It wasn't big from what I remember and definitely didn't have gold line. It is basically out in front of the flat rocks to the left of the parking lot at P1. I would say sidemount would definitely work better in there from what I remember.

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I believe your describing "The Balcony" Its a low tunnel leading to the cavern of PIII. Its almost straight out from where you enter the run to get to PIII.

what those guys said. The Balcony is a nice alternate entrance into PIII, and PII was unfortunately pinched off, but you can get most of the way there in sidemount off of Olsen.

Forrest would be the best one to ask. I know he can tell you exactly what the deal is.

P2 is in between P1 and P3. There's a traverse you can do from P2 that will put you in the back of the P3 cavern, but the beginning of P2 is pretty small and tight. I managed to wedge myself in it pretty good about a month ago.

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Originally Posted by shellmoundal

Forrest would be the best one to ask. I know he can tell you exactly what the deal is.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

P2 is in between P1 and P3. There's a traverse you can do from P2 that will put you in the back of the P3 cavern, but the beginning of P2 is pretty small and tight. I managed to wedge myself in it pretty good about a month ago.

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Ken has the best answer.

You get to the P2-P3 connection by going to the far left side of the parking lot. If you follow the trail through the fence, P2 in on your right, and P3 is all the way to the end of the trail. If you get into P2, the entrance to the connection is a fairly beat up hole to the left. There is another beat up hole on the right that may connect to P1, but I haven't tried that one.

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Originally Posted by FW

There is another beat up hole on the right that may connect to P1, but I haven't tried that one.

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I have looked at it from the inside, having swam there from P1. It looked like it had collapsed. It may go, but it didn't look like something I wanted to try.

The Balcony is a cool place. I haven't entered that from the outside, either - just swam from the P-III cavern to where it pinches down and back again.

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

I have looked at it from the inside, having swam there from P1. It looked like it had collapsed. It may go, but it didn't look like something I wanted to try.

The Balcony is a cool place. I haven't entered that from the outside, either - just swam from the P-III cavern to where it pinches down and back again.

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It isn't very tight, it has been done in backmount. A lot easier in sidemount, though.

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Originally Posted by FW

It isn't very tight, it has been done in backmount. Probably a lot easier in sidemount, though.

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I'll give it a look in October. :)

The Balcony from P3 cavern has two exit/entrance holes into the spring run near the P2 area. One is side-mount the other a tight back mount as of about a year ago. The Well line from P1 ends in a small "room" that is considered part of the P2 cavern break down but has no exit. I don't believe there is any known connection between P1 and P3 largely because there is currently no way to connect the Balcony to the Well line.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Go down the P1 Main Line (toward Pothole) and there is a jump to the right about p250'. Take it and you will get to a "well." Go down the well and you will hit about 85'. Keep going and you will see that you are getting shallower and shallower, until you think you are nearing an exit. Ten or so years ago it pinched off such that you couldn't exit, but I don't know about now.

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So it would be a fun little jump if nothing else than to make the jump and drop to 85' and come back.

Tim

WOW... Thanks everyone. Doesn't sound like something I would want to do from the spring run, back to P1... but sounds like a fun little jump from Olsen line to the pit. I need to start doing some jumps and this would make for a short dive.

Tim

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Originally Posted by twaldo

WOW... Thanks everyone. Doesn't sound like something I would want to do from the spring run, back to P1... but sounds like a fun little jump from Olsen line to the pit. I need to start doing some jumps and this would make for a short dive.

Tim

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Addressing this comment.... you can't get from the spring run entry holes near P2 back to P1 as they only go to P3. And the "fun little jump" from the Olsen line is not really so little and is not marked.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

WOW... Thanks everyone. Doesn't sound like something I would want to do from the spring run, back to P1... but sounds like a fun little jump from Olsen line to the pit. I need to start doing some jumps and this would make for a short dive.

Tim

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Tim, best I can remember, the jump to the well is about 35 feet beyond the stop sign at the bottom of the chimney. Because of the distance(100') to the jump line, I would use a primary or safety reel to reach the line which is on the right wall. Seems like there is one rock on the floor at the halfway point to tie your line.

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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I didn't see anyone mention it, but the passage from the pothole line to the well is a siphon. Depending on the flow at Peacock, this may or may not be relevant.
Thirds will not be the most clever approach to this dive.

Next there is a second line in the well area that parallels it, goes through another opening and loops back parallel to the other well line. That line is a fairly low passage and not for inexperienced cave divers.
So when entering and exiting the well "shaft" for the first time, make extra sure to look for the other line as to not accidentally jump onto it on the return. It's only a reach gap...

You can also do the well as an intro dive by running a primary from open water down a little hole to the right as you are looking at the olsen line. Instead of dropping down the "crack" at the beginning of the olsen line, look over to the right past a log and you'll see another opening. When you drop down through it, stay to the right hand side wall and you'll find the "loop of rock" that the line to the well starts on.

It's not a well traveled path, so it is silty. Your bubbles will knock some dirt off the ceiling. The day I dove it, silt had piled up on the gold line. Be prepared for the exit to have less vis than the entry.

We managed to do it without messing up the vis too bad, but it was definitely better going in than coming out.

I would more call it "no flow" rather than a siphon. It was pretty stagnant the day I dove it.

I've only been there a few times - always jumping off the Pothole line, down the well, and out to the end. Most times it was a barely perceptible siphon, but once it was siphoning fairly hard.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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I would say no, only because it is very silty and almost no flow. Exit will most likely be OK line if you are not really careful. I would make sure you have at least several low silty passages under your belt before trying The Well.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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as long as it is out and back on the same line..... couldn't go in at P1 and come out at PII, not that it sounds like this is even possible now.
(appended)
Yeah, if it's a siphon it would be outside of NAUI 1, just looking for some jumps that are not so far back to start working with. Have done the Nicholson jump with NetDoc but it's 700' into the cave and although it is an easy jump we didn't get far before hitting 3rds. I guess this is where Ginnie excels at being a good learning cave again.....

Tim

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

I'll give it a look in October. :)

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IF you want , I can show you EXACTLY where it is :D
Jeano

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Originally Posted by twaldo

just looking for some jumps that are not so far back to start working with.

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There's a cool jump going to the left on the Olsen line, not far from the grim reaper sign. It's maybe 200' or so in, a big room with the arch on the left. That line more or less parallels the gold line.
Basically the gold line makes a right turn right before the arch, so just tie in and keep going straight and you'll get to that line.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

as long as it is out and back on the same line..... couldn't go in at P1 and come out at PII, not that it sounds like this is even possible now.
(appended)
Yeah, if it's a siphon it would be outside of NAUI 1, just looking for some jumps that are not so far back to start working with. Have done the Nicholson jump with NetDoc but it's 700' into the cave and although it is an easy jump we didn't get far before hitting 3rds. I guess this is where Ginnie excels at being a good learning cave again.....

Tim

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I'm going to jump out on a limb and say that I don't believe there was EVER an exit to P2 ( surface ) by going down thru that well. I dove it for the first time right after Full Cave in the mid 80s with Mark Leonard from Dive Rite and his opinion, at that time, was water was moving thru "cracks only" on it's way down the run. I don't know of anybody that has ever said they knew of an exit point. Peacock seemed to "flow" more 30 years ago then it does today and since our dive was going in the Syphon side, silt was not much of a problem. It was always ahead of us. Even the return to the well was uneventful. Different story today. Lots of silt and little to no flow. If you really want to challenge yourself, when you drop down into the well, take a right into the Spring side of the system. I was there around two years or so ago. It was bad going and coming! BTW, all of this area is doable in backmount but you'd better be on top of your game. In my opinion, the spring side of the well is NOT appropriate for Naui Cave 1

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Originally Posted by jeandiver

IF you want , I can show you EXACTLY where it is :D
Jeano

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OK Jeano! See you next month... :)

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Originally Posted by cmint

You can also do the well as an intro dive by running a primary from open water down a little hole to the right as you are looking at the olsen line. Instead of dropping down the "crack" at the beginning of the olsen line, look over to the right past a log and you'll see another opening. When you drop down through it, stay to the right hand side wall and you'll find the "loop of rock" that the line to the well starts on.

It's not a well traveled path, so it is silty. Your bubbles will knock some dirt off the ceiling. The day I dove it, silt had piled up on the gold line. Be prepared for the exit to have less vis than the entry.

We managed to do it without messing up the vis too bad, but it was definitely better going in than coming out.

I would more call it "no flow" rather than a siphon. It was pretty stagnant the day I dove it.

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Seems like the description may indicate it is less of an intro dive.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

There's a cool jump going to the left on the Olsen line, not far from the grim reaper sign. It's maybe 200' or so in, a big room with the arch on the left. That line more or less parallels the gold line.
Basically the gold line makes a right turn right before the arch, so just tie in and keep going straight and you'll get to that line.

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I like that jump just to add a little something different to a dive on the Olsen line. It appears fee people either know about it or dive it. Its a super short line so maybe some dont want to jump to it just for a short line. Just a way to add to your fun in peacock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Well is a great dive. It is not an Intro dive. Do not be fooled because "that one day it wasn't flowing". Peacock is a dynamic system and this area can be a siphon so do not plan full thirds (as already mentioned). The drop into the shaft is back mountable but easier in sidemount. Either way, it is fluffy silt so bring your A game in terms of boyuancy.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

There's a cool jump going to the left on the Olsen line, not far from the grim reaper sign. It's maybe 200' or so in, a big room with the arch on the left. That line more or less parallels the gold line.
Basically the gold line makes a right turn right before the arch, so just tie in and keep going straight and you'll get to that line.

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Isn't that to the mud tunnel? I thought it got low and tight pretty quick.

Tim

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

There's a cool jump going to the left on the Olsen line, not far from the grim reaper sign. It's maybe 200' or so in, a big room with the arch on the left. That line more or less parallels the gold line.
Basically the gold line makes a right turn right before the arch, so just tie in and keep going straight and you'll get to that line.

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ive always been to check it out on the way out....but then continuing on home to the entrance.

I'm going to log this dive. Feels like I've done it "internet" anyway.

Just drag your butt to the site and kick around, for God's sake. Might actually enjoy it instead of mentally masturbate on it.

God forbid anyone break a standard while being watched....

Bob

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Originally Posted by floridabob

God forbid anyone break a standard while being watched....

Bob

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Hence my proclivity towards fancy caves. No witnesses...



While pioneering new entry techniques.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I'm going to log this dive. Feels like I've done it "internet" anyway.

Just drag your butt to the site and kick around, for God's sake. Might actually enjoy it instead of mentally masturbate on it.

God forbid anyone break a standard while being watched....

Bob

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:) I break standards every time I get in the water..... no, wait... I do dive appropriate thermal protection for my comfort level.... I'm good.

I do like to have a mental picture of where I'm going if it is "new", I'll never be an adventurer and dive something no one else has ever seen... at least that I'll post.

... the dots are trying to kill the grammar patrol....

Seriously though, why have a resource like the CDF and not use it??

Tim

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Seriously though, why have a resource like the CDF and not use it??

Tim

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Because it kills the adventurous spirit that Cave Divers were known for before everyone became an Internet Diver.

Used to be that Cave Divers got together (in person), swapped stories (mostly lies) and actually socialized and then went EXPLORING.

There is so much more cave out there to enjoy, dive and map; besides the typical locations stuffed full of gold line and marked line arrows.

I think ridge walking and line knotting should be part of the curriculum of a full cave course.

Of course, I also think a properly equipped Florida Cave Diver knows the importance of a dry suit.

But, to each his own...

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Originally Posted by Draker

Used to be that Cave Divers got together (in person), swapped stories (mostly lies) and actually socialized and then went EXPLORING.

There is so much more cave out there to enjoy, dive and map; besides the typical locations stuffed full of gold line and marked line arrows.

I think ridge walking and line knotting should be part of the curriculum of a full cave course.

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:) that is actually why this thread got started, was at Lynda's and a group of us were discussing PII-PIII but per the P1 map couldn't really determine if anyone actually knew where PII was. I actually have MANY miles of ridgewalking logged.. and a TON of dry caves added to the Arkansas Cave Survey, I'm not so anxious to "ridgewalk" in swamps but I can find my way to and from Buford. When I get to Cave 2, I will be asking about knot tying, but that will probably be next year.

AND
Just to make you happy (ok ALL of N Florida cave divers) I actually found a drysuit that I like, wont see me wearing it for another couple of months (needs a neck gasket) and it needs to be a little cooler outside or I'd drop over of a heat stroke just getting to the water.... I tried your "dive skin" suggestion and was actually cold with it on go figure??
Ok, so it really was not to make all of N Florida happy, I want to get my Ice Diver cert and think a drysuit would be better than a 5mil wetsut (not to mention the arguments I'd have with the instructor that 5 mil was PLENTY).

So are you suggesting we shut down CDF ??

:)
Tim

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Isn't that to the mud tunnel? I thought it got low and tight pretty quick.

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No, that tunnel youre talking about is the crossunder tunnel and it's much further in. The one I'm talking about is huge and you can't miss it.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

If you were talking to people who don't know where P2 is then you need to find better company/mentors for that area!!
If the water level is high it's a nice float down the run from p1-p3. There are a couple of holes on the way, one of them is P2.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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The well? Yes.

2 navigational decisions, 100' max depth, thirds, no decompression.

Man, tough crowd this week. I'm surprised y'all are able to dive and post on the forum when not feeding and caring for your high horses.

Not everybody has time to sit around all bs with a ton of people in person to get all of these great hints. I've been to peacock a brunch but never knew where p2 was because I never really cared. I live 3 hours away and have a job that takes precedent over bs. So I drive in for the day, dive, then head home. I have such little time to putz around after a dive, I bought a compressor because I don't have time to stick around and get tanks filled.

And sure there's tons of caves other than the "tourist" caves, but I personally prefer to spend time exploring and learning the nooks and crannies of those places rather than spending the extra time I don't have exploring places nobody goes to. I save my "exploring" for France and Mexico, but even so those caves have lines in them too. Still it's adventurous enough for me.

There seems to be some that look down their nose if you're not sucking down helium 300 feet in diepolder or laying new line. Guess what, very few of us are going to do that. Some of us just like to get away from our everyday stresses and get mentally lost (not figuratively) in a cave somewhere. So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to take the douche down a few notches. Some of us only have time to ask questions when we get off of work at night, because after a dive we can't stand around talking.

You read too much into this. It's hard to detect a playful jab and sense of humor on these threads sometimes.

As an example, James talks about his fancy caves all the time. He does make deep long dives, but he'll also go diving with idiots who should have never even been certified, in the hopes of getting them up to speed. He's certainly one of the best divers out there, but he'll go do a short dive in Ginnie to show you something new. He's done it with my certed students several times.

Some of it is a jab at Where'sWaldo. Not because of his diving ability, but because he's a goober who brings it on himself.

And lastly, on the road of cave diving life, some divers are just farther down the road. So they might know of that there's some really friggin awesome experiences just around the corner that will give you exponential enjoyment over diving the same 5 caves in Florida. Don't hate their passion, find a way to get them to take you with them.

I'll start...
Where'sWaldo... You wanna go dive Church in a couple of weeks?

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

You read too much into this. It's hard to detect a playful jab and sense of humor on these threads sometimes.

As an example, James talks about his fancy caves all the time. He does make deep long dives, but he'll also go diving with idiots who should have never even been certified, in the hopes of getting them up to speed. He's certainly one of the best divers out there, but he'll go do a short dive in Ginnie to show you something new. He's done it with my certed students several times.

Some of it is a jab at Where'sWaldo. Not because of his diving ability, but because he's a goober who brings it on himself.

And lastly, on the road of cave diving life, some divers are just farther down the road. So they might know of that there's some really friggin awesome experiences just around the corner that will give you exponential enjoyment over diving the same 5 caves in Florida. Don't hate their passion, find a way to get them to take you with them.

I'll start...
Where'sWaldo... You wanna go dive Church in a couple of weeks?

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I know the backstories very well. And my comment was not only directed at James. I understand that there are playful jabs that are between friends, but I stand behind my statement. There's been a lot of comments lately in this thread and others that come off very heavily as negative towards divers with lesser abilities or experience. Basically, a little high horsey. I'm sure much of it is jokes, but I'm also sure there's some ego attached to it as well. I'm certain I'm not the only one that sees it, I'm just the only one that will point it out.

And no, I'm not butt hurt. It's just annoying because I don't want to ask a "dumb" question and it be suggested I find new mentors.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Where'sWaldo... You wanna go dive Church in a couple of weeks?

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hhhhmmmmm NOPE

Maybe Ginnie someday :)

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Originally Posted by kensuf

The well? Yes.

2 navigational decisions, 100' max depth, thirds, no decompression.

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it's not a siphon?

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Originally Posted by Jay

If you were talking to people who don't know where P2 is then you need to find better company/mentors for that area!!
If the water level is high it's a nice float down the run from p1-p3. There are a couple of holes on the way, one of them is P2.

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Was talking with more than competent divers, but the resources we had basically showed PII to be where we ALL knew PIII should have been... They were however NOT my mentors, that would be SuperLyte for the diving and Draker for the thermal exposure advice. :)

Tim

I like to think of the CDF as being my mentor, my dive buddy also happens to be my girlfriend and nothing towards her but I am the more experienced diver. I have about as many dives with her as I do with people coming into cave country needing a buddy (WOOHOO dive #22 last saturday). In my short list of dives I have gotten to dive with Forrest, Sandy, NetDoc, Chris R (also my final instructor for Cave1) and all have had positive feedback on my skills.

Pete is right though, I do tend to bring it on myself, I will ask a question even if I know the answer just to see how everyone else feels about a subject. Just like this feed, I have learned a LOT about PII that I did not already know. I know who is going to berate me and who is going to give valuable feedback, I have fun with the beraters and soak up the knowledge from the others.

So, my advise is if you have a question, go on and post it. Ignore those who give you a hard time over such a silly question and listen to everyone else who has the valuable feedback on whatever it is you asked.

Caver's whether wet or dry ALL love their drama.

Tim

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Originally Posted by twaldo

hhhhmmmmm NOPE

Maybe Ginnie someday :)

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See, try to show them something new and they just don't want to go.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Was talking with more than competent divers, but the resources we had basically showed PII to be where we ALL knew PIII should have been... They were however NOT my mentors, that would be SuperLyte for the diving and Draker for the thermal exposure advice. :)

Tim

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I wasn't saying they were bad, but it should be easy enough to find someone who knows about PII. And yeah, it is good to ask questions on here, there are still plenty of people who give good info!

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

See, try to show them something new and they just don't want to go.

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between my dry caving and wet caving I was pretty hard core into whitewater canoeing. I was a solid III-IV open boater, had a pretty solid open boat roll to the point I pulled a combat roll off in the middle of CorkScrew a class IV rapid on the Chattooga River. It was raining HARD in North Arkansas and a friend called and prompted me to goto Richland Creek a solid Class III wilderness run.... I was good with that. Got there and the creek was BLOWN so he was like... I got this other run, called BossHollow, its just like Richland at normal levels... lets go do it............................

Moral of the story, he dropped me on a solid Class IV-V if not V run.... I survived and boy do I have stories....and sadly no pictures (I was the first OpenBoat decent)

Pete, I don't want to have those KIND of stories about a dive site with you that I've never heard of before, EVEN if I get pictures out of the deal. Nothing personal :)

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Is this a dive that is appropriate with a Naui Cave I cert?

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http://www.runawaylobster.com/scubaclasses/cavei.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uVANdwGgY

Naui Cave 1? Where have I been ? I am so sorry to have missed all of this ! Not ! Whatever happened to the NSS/CDS courses ! They offered the best instructors & Instruction/skills training ever !

I give up or maybe not !

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Originally Posted by twaldo

between my dry caving and wet caving I was pretty hard core into whitewater canoeing. I was a solid III-IV open boater, had a pretty solid open boat roll to the point I pulled a combat roll off in the middle of CorkScrew a class IV rapid on the Chattooga River. It was raining HARD in North Arkansas and a friend called and prompted me to goto Richland Creek a solid Class III wilderness run.... I was good with that. Got there and the creek was BLOWN so he was like... I got this other run, called BossHollow, its just like Richland at normal levels... lets go do it............................

Moral of the story, he dropped me on a solid Class IV-V if not V run.... I survived and boy do I have stories....and sadly no pictures (I was the first OpenBoat decent)

Pete, I don't want to have those KIND of stories about a dive site with you that I've never heard of before, EVEN if I get pictures out of the deal. Nothing personal

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Sounds cool but... :yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by JE

Whatever happened to the NSS/CDS courses ! They offered the best instructors & Instruction/skills training ever !

I give up or maybe not !

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Honestly (yeah I have 22 dives and I'm saying this) I think ANY program that is teaching 1/6ths is outdated... every person I' have known that took an intro class that included 1/6's dove 3rds ANYWAY.... its just like muscle memory... if you go switching the game in the middle it messes up your thought processes... Come on guys, if you have standards that are worth following maybe your divers would.... and you can have awesome instructors without regard to the agency.

:)

Let the flaming begin

Tim

Ya know Tm, all the joking would go away, if you went ahead and started the next level classes :-)

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Honestly (yeah I have 22 dives and I'm saying this) I think ANY program that is teaching 1/6ths is outdated... every person I' have known that took an intro class that included 1/6's dove 3rds ANYWAY.... its just like muscle memory... if you go switching the game in the middle it messes up your thought processes... Come on guys, if you have standards that are worth following maybe your divers would.... and you can have awesome instructors without regard to the agency.

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At least you know better than those that wrote the standards. That's quite an accomplishment for Cave 1.

:)

working on it... but you are wrong they joking will always be there because I make it a point to be the target.

Next class is adv nitrox/deco and I needed a drysuit for that. Ended up with a suit by same manufacture as yours, but need to replace a neck gasket and then it needs to cool of a bit before I start trying to gear up and die of a heat stroke :)

As long as I'm not too horrible with my skills, I'll take the joking. It's when I become the joke because I really am that bad that I'll need to start worrying.

Tim

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Originally Posted by MikeT

At least you know better than those that wrote the standards. That's quite an accomplishment for Cave 1.

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:)
at least I don't violate my organization's standards.... where it seems everyone that should be diving 1/6ths is.

The standards are staying the same because it is easier to leave them than it is to change them, but seems to me that leaving them is implying that people should violate standards which starts it's own vicious path for those divers.

And my certification level has nothing to do looking at the trend of divers from the various organizations. It is something the organizations REALLY need to look at.

I thought you went deeper than 100' in Little River?

Tim on a difficulty scale of 1 - 10 for cave diving, church is a 3.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

Honestly (yeah I have 22 dives and I'm saying this) I think ANY program that is teaching 1/6ths is outdated... every person I' have known that took an intro class that included 1/6's dove 3rds ANYWAY.... its just like muscle memory... if you go switching the game in the middle it messes up your thought processes... Come on guys, if you have standards that are worth following maybe your divers would.... and you can have awesome instructors without regard to the agency.

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Are you serious? I've never met anyone at the intro level breaking sixths. And If I did, I would have let him know exactly what I think of it.
Now some of the intro limitations, like not being able to leave the gold line or navigate a T, are not something I think makes all that much sense.
So in fact, some people "dance around" these limitations and run their primaries way into the cave to some line off the gold, or run a line from gold to practice "buddy searches" into side passages, thus sort of bypassing their limitations.
Actually I've helped people explore the limits of their intro rules too and think it's fine.
But, breaking sixths?, WTH is that about?
I'm beginning to think that maybe the intro limitations are not so much the problem as immature cave divers receiving Cave1 bonus limitations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Are you serious? I've never met anyone at the intro level breaking sixths. And If I did, I would have let him know exactly what I think of it.
Now some of the intro limitations, like not being able to leave the gold line or navigate a T, are not something I think makes all that much sense.
So in fact, some people "dance around" these limitations and run their primaries way into the cave to some line off the gold, or run a line from gold to practice "buddy searches" into side passages, thus sort of bypassing their limitations.
Actually I've helped people explore the limits of their intro rules too and think it's fine.
But, breaking sixths?, WTH is that about?
I'm beginning to think that maybe the intro limitations are not so much the problem as immature cave divers receiving Cave1 bonus limitations.

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:)
All I know is what I have been told and observed. There is NO way if I'm turning on 3rds that they should have been turning on 6ths. My SAC is not THAT bad.

I can also do 2 jumps, but you don't see me doing much of even 1 at this point. I am looking for somewhere closer to the entrance to do do some jumps, but think 700' in is a bit to far for me to do repetitive skills on a single dive and maintain 3rds.

And I have to disagree, limitations to JUST the gold line do make sense.... Maybe 1 nav decision.... really at Cave1 I think 2 is a bit much unless I'm going to have 50+ dives before I start doing more than 1.

As far as running their own line, I think that is totally legit as long as it doesn't make for a nuisance/hazard to other divers in the cave.

I just think everyone should be at 3rds (and non-expiring certs).

Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I thought you went deeper than 100' in Little River?

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it wasn't a planned depth violation..... dropped to 104' when I was signaling to my dive buddy to turn the dive, immediately returned to 98' (he was diving at a depth of 105' ish).... I think I am covered. :)

and this thread has gone south!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Tim on a difficulty scale of 1 - 10 for cave diving, church is a 3.

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actually looks like a nice dive, a bit tight for me just yet as I'm not 100% comfortable on my buoyancy in the sense of where I think I should be.... with a lot of passage having 3-6 feet height and likely NO flow. If I can find a job that keeps me in Cave country ask me again in six months. It's not like I'm making silt angels, but my sense of location in the water column tends to have me bouncing off the ceiling still a bit much. Not as much as I did 6 months ago, but enough that I would say my personal buoyancy still needs work.



:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twaldo

:)
All I know is what I have been told and observed. There is NO way if I'm turning on 3rds that they should have been turning on 6ths. My SAC is not THAT bad.

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I wouldn't know about your SAC rate, but I do remember you mentioning getting 700' on thirds on the Olsen line? I have been in P1 with intro divers who dove to sixths to Olsen sink, which is certainly quite a bit further than 700'.
So in my opinion that would be something to focus on, the SAC rate. Your new drysuit will certainly help.
My take is, a high SAC rate is no excuse to turn a dive late and break limits.

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And I have to disagree, limitations to JUST the gold line do make sense.... Maybe 1 nav decision.... really at Cave1 I think 2 is a bit much unless I'm going to have 50+ dives before I start doing more than 1.

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Of course limitations make sense - usually because the training status of the individual warrants/requires them.

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As far as running their own line, I think that is totally legit as long as it doesn't make for a nuisance/hazard to other divers in the cave.

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I think it's fine to either run funny lines or do jumps, if people are ready and prepared for it.
Which, thinking about it, at the intro Level they normally cannot not be. Jumps and (semi-)complex navigation is something taught at the Apprentice and Full Cave level.

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I just think everyone should be at 3rds (and non-expiring certs).
Tim

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Well, if it was up to me, nobody prior to a (solid) full cave cert level should be in a cave.

Not to sound like an a$$ but I would really work on my sac rate if you are having a hard time getting to 700' of penetration distance in Peacock on 1/3 rds. I have met a good many divers who can do this easily on 1/6ths and they aren't really experienced. It seems to me this might be the issue vs. people busting their standards.

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Originally Posted by patpicos

and this thread has gone south!

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That ALWAYS happens when I ask innocent questions... and Ken was just picking on me... (in a fun way)

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Not to sound like an a$$ but I would really work on my sac rate if you are having a hard time getting to 700' of penetration distance in Peacock on 1/3 rds. I have met a good many divers who can do this easily on 1/6ths and they aren't really experienced. It seems to me this might be the issue vs. people busting their standards.

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:) I can make Olsen on 3rds (with some left over) Maybe I don't understand 6ths because I have not had that limitation... So if I make it to Olsen on 3rds and they make Olsen on 6ths what is the difference? I just never approached them because I did not want to accuse them of violating their rule of 6ths.... and well I did have some divers ADMIT to violating 6ths in favor of diving 3rds... but that is another story.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Well, if it was up to me, nobody prior to a (solid) full cave cert level should be in a cave.

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:) I think NAUI's concept is teach you what you need to know and then rely on the student to progress at their own rate until its time for the next class. I know that is what I am doing. I want to take my adv nitrox/deco class soon, but it will be another year before I am ready to do Cave2 (if I get to keep diving at my current frequency) which is how it should be.

You would rather a diver go from OW to FULL CAVE over a couple of weekends and then let them loose on the world? rather than stretch it out 6 months or a year before their next cert?

Not sure how a dry suit is going to decrease my SAC, would LOVE to hear that explanation.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

You would rather a diver go from OW to FULL CAVE over a couple of weekends and then let them loose on the world? rather than stretch it out 6 months or a year before their next cert?

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I firmly believe that if someone comes well prepared to their cave class, he or she can progress in a very safe fashion and without much delay to the full cave level.
Having said that, this requires ample experience in the configuration the class is done with (BM doubles or SM), plus successful training at the tec fundamentals level (or comparable).
And for those who are not ready to complete their full cave training from the get go, there are many options to receive a cert that lets them dive within their range of qualification.
Although again, if it were entirely up to me, full cave would be the minimum to do autonomous cave diving.

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Not sure how a dry suit is going to decrease my SAC, would LOVE to hear that explanation.

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I firmly believe you will be much more comfortable and likely in much better trim too. Both will help you relax, remove tension and get your breathing to normal levels.
Rest assured that if I dove in a T-shirt and shorts, my thirds would be gone around the 700' mark as well.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I firmly believe you will be much more comfortable and likely in much better trim too. Both will help you relax, remove tension and get your breathing to normal levels.
Rest assured that if I dove in a T-shirt and shorts, my thirds would be gone around the 700' mark as well.

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I guess that is a big difference between the two of us then... cause I can make it to olsen and then some on my return before hitting 3rds wearing shorts and a t-shirt.... and believe me I am toasty with my chosen exposure protection.... I am SO sorry that the rest of you get cold in 72 degree water.... I'm good down to 68 and then below that I need a 3mil... at 45 I need a 5mil. Still not sure how a drysuit would lower my sac.

Have you dove a drysuit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garth

Have you dove a drysuit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Did a DUI dog days event in Arkansas... LOVED IT.... they flipped out when I didn't want a hood or gloves for 45degree water... no liner (shorts and tshirt under the drysuit)...
was very toasty.... finally got a front zip... getting neck seal replaced soon.. Like it way more than any of the back zip's I have purchased in the last year... just can not do a back zip.

Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twaldo

every person I' have known that took an intro class that included 1/6's dove 3rds ANYWAY...

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May give an explanation of why there are more accidents at the intro level versus the other cert levels.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

May give an explanation of why there are more accidents at the intro level versus the other cert levels.

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THANK YOU for at least not denying what I know I've seen/experienced.....

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I know the backstories very well. And my comment was not only directed at James. I understand that there are playful jabs that are between friends, but I stand behind my statement. There's been a lot of comments lately in this thread and others that come off very heavily as negative towards divers with lesser abilities or experience. Basically, a little high horsey. I'm sure much of it is jokes, but I'm also sure there's some ego attached to it as well. I'm certain I'm not the only one that sees it, I'm just the only one that will point it out.

And no, I'm not butt hurt. It's just annoying because I don't want to ask a "dumb" question and it be suggested I find new mentors.

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No, I dont think youre butt hurt due to this thread. But I would like to thank you for being the self appointed protector of all. Your self sacrifice, courage and humanitarianism should be rewarded in some way.

One thing I simply must say is that I regularly dive with people of lesser abilities and lesser self importance--keeps me humble and my hubris in check. I just spent the weekend alternating between following silt trails and knee prints all the while hoping to survive to post about it here.

Here in this forum of higher learning where a single thread often morphs into 63 different arguments and isnt moderated until I use profanity. Or FW talks about his plane.

Well, I hope this shiite gets some heavy handed a$$ kicking to get us back on topic: Tim's inability to dive to standards while not diving at all but merely posting dumb questions.

Bob

While I don't agree with all of your points, I will say I agree that the agencies need to really take a look at the cavern/intro/apprentice/full system vs the naui system. I've been very vocal in saying that with the popularity of Naui, GUE, and IANTD recently, the nacd and cds may need to reconfigure in order to not be left behind. I don't think the NAUI system is for everybody, but I do believe for most people it gives you enough room to comfortably breathe and take your time to move up. I have heard of people who break 1/6ths regularyl. Never dove with them or I'd flip out on them. I have been around people though that simply want to get to the next cert to not have to dive 1/6ths anymore, and really aren't taking the time to learn how to read a cave and progressively learn. They just want to move on.

I do agree with Oliver that I think a drysuit will improve you SAC. I could be completely wrong. I was opposed to hoods for years. I finally started using mine and find a huge difference. If I had to guess, I'd say there's a good chance you're going to have a "you don't know what you don't know" kind of turnaround on the idea.

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Originally Posted by floridabob

. But I would like to thank you for being the self appointed protector of all. Your self sacrifice, courage and humanitarianism should be rewarded in some way.

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Well, I graciously thank you for coming to that realization. I agree I really should be rewarded.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Well, I graciously thank you for coming to that realization. I agree I really should be rewarded.

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DAMN!!!

I thought you'd fly off the handle all pissed off over some dumb stuff I said.

I am clearly not at the top of my game right now but I will return after a few more boiler makers using Tito's Vodka and some fruity/faggy beer.

YOU JUST WAIT RIGHT HERE!!

Bob

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Originally Posted by floridabob

DAMN!!!

I thought you'd fly off the handle all pissed off over some dumb stuff I said.

I am clearly not at the top of my game right now but I will return after a few more boiler makers using Tito's Vodka and some fruity/faggy beer.

YOU JUST WAIT RIGHT HERE!!

Bob

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I've become accustomed to the dumb stuff you say I guess.

Not possible. I have more dumb to go.

My dumbness goes to an "11".

Or perhaps you didnt understand it? I can use smaller words, I mean, you do live in St. Pete. And I sure hope "St. Pete" isnt really "Kenneth City".

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by floridabob

Not possible. I have more dumb to go.

My dumbness goes to an "11".

Or perhaps you didnt understand it? I can use smaller words, I mean, you do live in St. Pete. And I sure hope "St. Pete" isnt really "Kenneth City".

Bob

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St Pete as in St Pete. You can use whatever size words you like. I'm able to read through the douchebaggery. I speak it fluently.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Well, I graciously thank you for coming to that realization. I agree I really should be rewarded.

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I'll buy you dinner.... don't have any rewards I can hand out...

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Originally Posted by twaldo

I'll buy you dinner.... don't have any rewards I can hand out...

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You will be required to wear appopriate clothing. If you dive in shorts and t-shirt I'd really be scared what you'd wear to dinner.

And THAT made me LOL!!!

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Originally Posted by rddvet

You will be required to wear appopriate clothing. If you dive in shorts and t-shirt I'd really be scared what you'd wear to dinner.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

You will be required to wear appopriate clothing. If you dive in shorts and t-shirt I'd really be scared what you'd wear to dinner.

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Probably a drysuit :-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

You will be required to wear appopriate clothing. If you dive in shorts and t-shirt I'd really be scared what you'd wear to dinner.

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Just a ratty t-shirt (dry), ratty board shorts (dry) and a pair of ratty tennis shoes (dry) The t-shirt will be geek themed.... and no if it's been raining hard like it has the last 3 weeks... no really promises on the dry part. But it's all good enough to get me into most any restaurant in Cave Country :) I HIGHLY Suggest Atkins BBQ in Bell but they are closed on Sundays.

:)

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Originally Posted by FW

Probably a drysuit :-D

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ssssshhhhh you were not supposed to give away the secret... When I did the boating thing I actually had a WW drysuit that I would wear everywhere... drove a VW van and it didn't have the greatest heater in the world and whitewater and winter are synonymous in the Ozarks so I would gear up before I ever left the house and stay that way till I got home.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

...snip. ..
I HIGHLY Suggest Atkins BBQ in Bell but they are closed on Sundays.

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Your goal of pissing everyone off will only succeed if you state Sonny's as the best BBQ...[emoji6]

Sent via

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Your goal of pissing everyone off will only succeed if you state Sonny's as the best BBQ...[emoji6]

Sent via

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:) Sonny's is only cool cause it was in one of Wes n Jill's videos, but the best BBQ in FL goes to Atkins in Bell (and a close 2nd to a place that was in KeyLargo)

That said, I have no intent on pissing anyone off, it starts out as fun jabs from people I expect to do just that and snow balls into flames sprouting from the seams of my laptop screen because it offends people that I dive appropriate to my comfort level...

We need to do some dives at Pearl Lake, do they open in the winter for ice diving?

Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twaldo

actually looks like a nice dive, a bit tight for me just yet as I'm not 100% comfortable on my buoyancy in the sense of where I think I should be.... with a lot of passage having 3-6 feet height and likely NO flow. If I can find a job that keeps me in Cave country ask me again in six months. It's not like I'm making silt angels, but my sense of location in the water column tends to have me bouncing off the ceiling still a bit much. Not as much as I did 6 months ago, but enough that I would say my personal buoyancy still needs work.



:)

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I thought you were a scuba instructor? And your buoyancy isn't top notch?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

May give an explanation of why there are more accidents at the intro level versus the other cert levels.

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I haven't seen an intro diver die in a couple of years but the last few were definitely full cave. Maybe I'm reading the wrong accident reports.

Oh wait, no one really publishes accident reports anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kensuf

I thought you were a scuba instructor? And your buoyancy isn't top notch?

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More like my awareness of the overhead isn't top notch... and with a cave that goes up and down a lot... like pretty much every single cave I've been in... I tend to run into the ever changing ceiling. My last dive was only twice.... compared to right after certification it was like every 100 feet. But I think 2 times in 2200 feet is still a bit much.

I can always run close to the bottom and not silt anything out, but in something like Little River or Ginnie being on the bottom tends to either put me closer to deco or violating NAUI's 100' depth limit.

:) but then I'm pretty sure you are just picking on me in jest....

Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twaldo

More like my awareness of the overhead isn't top notch... and with a cave that goes up and down a lot... like pretty much every single cave I've been in... I tend to run into the ever changing ceiling. My last dive was only twice.... compared to right after certification it was like every 100 feet. But I think 2 times in 2200 feet is still a bit much.

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Come on Tim, are you serious or trying to troll us?

There are instructors that will thumb the dive if the student makes contact with the cave, and will end the class if this is an issue that repeats itself.
Getting a c-card being an uncontrolled human missile in a fragile environment is sort of like getting a drivers license but bumping into traffic signs, pedestrians and other cars frequently.
It should not happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Oh wait, no one really publishes accident reports anymore.

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only the major ones...

However, its funny HOW MANY people are PM'ing me about people they have seen violating 6ths.... but don't want to post it because they will get flamed. Guess I just like to be THAT guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Come on Tim, are you serious or trying to troll us?

There are instructors that will thumb the dive if the student makes contact with the cave, and will end the class if this is an issue that repeats itself.
Getting a c-card being an uncontrolled human missile in a fragile environment is sort of like getting a drivers license but bumping into traffic signs, pedestrians and other cars frequently.
It should not happen.

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You'll never really know :)
could just be my excuse to not dive with Pete. Better to say my skills are lacking.

I DID however run the ENTIRE length from the distance end of Peanut Tunnel to end of the gold line in cavern zone, mask off and never touched a thing besides the gold line...
I think I was supposed to close my eyes and leave my mask on... but I would have cheated albeit unintentionally.
So pretty sure I'm not a human missile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twaldo

only the major ones...

However, its funny HOW MANY people are PM'ing me about people they have seen violating 6ths.... but don't want to post it because they will get flamed. Guess I just like to be THAT guy.

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Sadly there are people that break rules. Instructors cannot do anything about it once the student has completed their training and graduated from their course. During training, the instructor can stress why the rules are in place and to gain experience slowly -- the c-card is a license to learn speech.

FWIW, I witnessed four brand new certified openwater divers do a dive to 85' in August. They just completed their certification the day before. If I were to extend your logic, instead of an OW certification their course should have included a deep diver specialty.

I think there's a place for the NAUI progression (I'm a NAUI cave instructor), but I don't think it's appropriate for all people. But I view a NAUI Cave 1 card as very similar to the NSS-CDS/NACD "Apprentice" level, except that it doesn't expire. It's a "zero to almost hero" course. Many people are better served by just staying on the gold line while developing the skill and awareness to quit bumping into the ceiling rather than adding navigational decisions and complexity into their diving.

I think there's something to be said by completing Intro then going and doing 20-30 dives before progressing further. There's a lot of cave to see well within those limitations.

This bumping into the ceiling issue makes me truly appreciate organizations like GUE that require a student to master the entire skill set required for full cave, before starting the overhead training. Cave training is to learn about cave diving, not to learn basic diving skills.
And to get back to the ceiling bumps, neutral buoyancy and awareness of your surroundings is not something that should be attempted to learn in a cave either. I bet your instructor will get a real bad headache reading all this.