Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

I really do not understand why we do not all switch to REMs.

I have never had a love affair with cookies and have never even had one. I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play).

Arrows used for this same purpose can lead to a confusing situation since my direction of exit may very well not be towards the nearest exit. I believe that this exact issue has caused some fatalities in the past.

REMs are non directional markers that will not cause confusion. They can also be used as directional markers for the user only. I was first introduced to them a few years ago in Mexico and had to buy them instantly. I have not used anything else since.

I think arrows should still be used as permanent markers. and REMs for everything else.

OK, maybe the occasional clothespin for scootering in big passages would still be needed, but at lease use ones that have a "vise grip" tension.

I'm pretty sure this is a mistake to ask...but hell, why do you need to mark direction that is both 1) in opposition to arrows in the area, and 2) not at a jump where its position relative to the jump is your indication of direction?

Asking honestly, not trying to be snarky. I'm hoping very much that this thread will be informative and not an off-topic nonsense circus like the active jump-thread on SB...

Also, with some experimenting in and out of the water, I find it takes some work to knock a clothespin off the line, more likely if someone were wrestling with the line while entangled than a few poorly placed kicks.

YMMV, of course.

And an REM looks like what?

WJH

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

... I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play)...

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Asking from a limited experience point of view, I'm trying to think of scenarios where this would apply, the only one I can think of is a long stretch of line with no markers, where you(I would too) would want to place a directional marker so that you wouldn't have to swim for a long distance before finding the first clue of which direction is which. Losing vis, becoming disoriented and lose the line could land you in a situation like that.
What other scenarios would require an installation of marker where no other reference point is present?

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Also, with some experimenting in and out of the water, I find it takes some work to knock a clothespin off the line, more likely if someone were wrestling with the line while entangled than a few poorly placed kicks.

YMMV, of course.

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It is extremely easy to knock off a double ender from a spool/primary reel, does not take much of a impossible position for it to happen.
We don't use carabiners in cave diving, but put one on a D-ring and play with it, you'll see how easy it is to knock it off of it too, just to illustrate, so, I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

WJH, REM=reference exit market. Think a cave arrow, but instead of an arrow it's squared off. This doesn't technically "point" anywhere, but it has one side that is longer than the other

Edit: picture found
http://www.utdscubadiving.com/upload...028eef283.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Pavão

... I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

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This was my thought as well. My instructor demonstrated on land that it takes a lot, and I followed up by trying similar efforts to thwack the pin free from a line underwater, and by the time I was hitting it hard enough that it might come off, I doubt a cookie could do better. To each their own, but I'm pretty comfortable with the clothespin.

I've encountered some wonky line intersections and I've yet to come across something that a cookie couldn't handle. In my mind, the markers are kind of secondary to mentally keeping track of which way I need to go at an intersection.

a lot of this was recently discussed here. http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ning-of-arrows

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I'm pretty sure this is a mistake to ask...but hell, why do you need to mark direction that is both 1) in opposition to arrows in the area, and 2) not at a jump where its position relative to the jump is your indication of direction?

Asking honestly, not trying to be snarky. I'm hoping very much that this thread will be informative and not an off-topic nonsense circus like the active jump-thread on SB...

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1 - At times I am exiting via an exit that is not the closest exit due to some extravagant traverse or circuit. Sounds strange but I have used 9 reels and still run out before I wanted to.
2 - Usually this is sufficient but Not always. Maybe I am the only one who has pulled the reel while exploring only to end up disoriented and not been sure whether to go left or right at my marker.

Basically it keeps my comfort level up so those damn cave ghosts do not creep up and ruin my dive. I try to learn from my incidents and not repeat them.

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Originally Posted by Pavão

Asking from a limited experience point of view, I'm trying to think of scenarios where this would apply, the only one I can think of is a long stretch of line with no markers, where you(I would too) would want to place a directional marker so that you wouldn't have to swim for a long distance before finding the first clue of which direction is which. Losing vis, becoming disoriented and lose the line could land you in a situation like that.
What other scenarios would require an installation of marker where no other reference point is present?


It is extremely easy to knock off a double ender from a spool/primary reel, does not take much of a impossible position for it to happen.
We don't use carabiners in cave diving, but put one on a D-ring and play with it, you'll see how easy it is to knock it off of it too, just to illustrate, so, I'd believe a cloths pin can be knock off quite easy too.

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a low vis issue can be a good time for extra direction due to the slow progress. A sudden lost buddy search is anther time. I like direction markers

If it makes you more comfortable, without adding risk to others, then by all means use them!

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

I really do not understand why we do not all switch to REMs.

I have never had a love affair with cookies and have never even had one. I always (and still do) felt that if I needed to put any kind of marker on a line that it should also be directional for me. Cookies completely lose this if there is not a second line (e.g. jump line in play).

Arrows used for this same purpose can lead to a confusing situation since my direction of exit may very well not be towards the nearest exit. I believe that this exact issue has caused some fatalities in the past.

REMs are non directional markers that will not cause confusion. They can also be used as directional markers for the user only. I was first introduced to them a few years ago in Mexico and had to buy them instantly. I have not used anything else since.

I think arrows should still be used as permanent markers. and REMs for everything else.

OK, maybe the occasional clothespin for scootering in big passages would still be needed, but at lease use ones that have a "vise grip" tension.

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When you bought your REMs didnt they tell you its like fight club. First rule is we dont talk about REMs

You need to keep in on the down low because other than you, I'm the only person I know of locally using REMs and I love having a very distinctively different marker than all of the other ones I pass.

All joking aside, I dont get why people havent adopted them here either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One problem is availability. Every shop has cookies and arrows. Few have REMs. The other one is the hipster problem. If everybody is following the same convention based on exclusivity then it no longer means the same thing. REMs are designed for not confusing people that aren't "in" on the meaning. If everybody gets "in" on it, it means the same as an arrow. There ARE better solutions with just cookies and arrows

I think most of the cave divers in Mexico are "in" on REMs, and I don't think it creates any confusion. Arrows are still used to mark the cave lines and REMs as personal markers. I always use them for setting up my jumps and marking my Ts. And with the long bottom times that you sometimes get, you frequently can get to a point on a dive where you're closer to a different exit than the one you entered at. The arrows change direction. I then "kill the arrow" with a REM and point that in the direction of my known and confirmed exit. The permanent line arrow still points to the nearest exit, I've referenced my exit, and I haven't added any confusion to another diver. Your buddy also always confirms the intent of each marker you've placed.

They are popular enough that Aqualung has started manufacturing and selling them. http://www.aqualung.com/us/gear/acce...1-line-markers

when there's another reference point, cookies mark the exit direction by being on the exit side of that reference. That's also true of an arrow that points in a direction other than your exit: A cookie on the blunt side tells you that your exit is the other way.

I think I see the benefit of having one at a jump, where the existing line arrow points in a direction other than your exit; so if you mark the jump with an arrow pointing in the opposite direction, it interferes with the general navigation of the cave. Is that the only problem it solves, or are there others? In zero viz, would you be comfortable referencing the slightly longer side? Maybe I'm missing something.

My REMs also have some identifying notches cut in them. This makes it that much more "directional" for ME even if the vis gets low. I have similar notches on all my reels also.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

My REMs also have some identifying notches cut in them. This makes it that much more "directional" for ME even if the vis gets low. I have similar notches on all my reels also.

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Mine do as well and my buddies understand what my marks are telling me.

I get what Vic is saying but disagree. People who use rems on a regular basis know that they are a nondirectional marker that have a directional meaning to their owner. Even if they become more popular, their meaning will not change. They're very popular in Mx and don't confuse anyone there.

It seems that people that dive alot in Mx like rems because you will come across things there in which a cookie or arrow aren't ideal. It seems people who haven't had to "kill" an arrow place a marker that contradicts the arrows significantly don't get their usefulness.

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Originally Posted by gearhound

They are popular enough that Aqualung has started manufacturing and selling them. http://www.aqualung.com/us/gear/acce...1-line-markers

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Anyone know where to get other then the Apeks one´s in Europe? I need few to show to my students. Lots of people who do they training in Mx are introduced to them and are using them

br. Teppo

I wonder what would be the issue with just cutting off the tip off your personal line arrows? That way still make them fully functional, but clearly (using haptic feedback) it would be clear that without a tip, they are not arrows but personal markers.
As a matter of fact, I think I will just go ahead and "circumcise" my arrows, just to not offend anyone when I use arrows for my jumps.

As to the Madison Blue incident at half hitch. Why would anyone put a line arrow there that would point back into the cave? It doesn't make sense at all.

The bottomline to me is to not lose awareness ever, so that you don't need any of the existing (or random) markers in the cave to lead the way out.
All navigational decisions would need to be marked with your own markers anyway.
I've come upon several T's where the arrow had been twisted in the line, making it point in the wrong direction.
Imagine someone has a bad day and fumbles on the line, twisting the arrow and silting the passage out.
If you trust that arrow on your way back, it will be a very bad day.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I wonder what would be the issue with just cutting off the tip off your personal line arrows?

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I contend there is no such thing as personal line arrows, once on the line it is a fixture of the cave, and as the person placing it, you have the responsibility to make sure it meets convention. For example, people have said for years they do things to make their line arrows personal with notches etc, but an team exiting in a slit out or lights out that is stressed, will not take the time to feel for these personal indicators. Hence, if this team feels a marker that seems to have any direction, even with the tip cut off, they will head in that direction, which hopefully is not counter to other prevailing line arrows- which we seem to have with some training that is occurring right now.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I contend there is no such thing as personal line arrows

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Personal as in my own. As to putting it on the line, the idea was to cut off the tip first, making it a cheap REM like device.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Personal as in my own. As to putting it on the line, the idea was to cut off the tip first, making it a cheap REM like device.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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Understand. There is a pervasive thought that is being trained, that there are personal line arrows and permanent line arrows, and we should be able to tell the difference. I contend in a slit out/lights out, there is no distinction between personal and permanent. I am not doubting you,but as I have seen discussed on other forums, there is some confusion here.

I am not sure how much of the tip you are cutting off-10%, 25%, 50%..... To make it a REM I am sure a significant amount has to be cut off. My only concern is a very small amount if cut off (even 25%) you still have the slopes of the line arrow,that when someone is stressed, rushed, in an emergency may note that it isn't round, it isn't rectangular, so it must be a line arrow pointing in > this direction.

REM wasn't even a good band.

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Originally Posted by Teppo

Anyone know where to get other then the Apeks one´s in Europe? I need few to show to my students. Lots of people who do they training in Mx are introduced to them and are using them

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The Go Sidemount shop has them but the shipping fees are quite expensive. The UTD store carries them too, but it appears they are currently out of stock.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I get what Vic is saying but disagree. People who use rems on a regular basis know that they are a nondirectional marker that have a directional meaning to their owner. Even if they become more popular, their meaning will not change. They're very popular in Mx and don't confuse anyone there.

It seems that people that dive alot in Mx like rems because you will come across things there in which a cookie or arrow aren't ideal. It seems people who haven't had to "kill" an arrow place a marker that contradicts the arrows significantly don't get their usefulness.

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As I don't really dive in Mx I can say that I've never come across one in a cave. However, everyone knows that the "long" side is the arrow to the owner. If everybody is using the same convention, it almost defeats the purpose. My cookies are "gendered" in that one side is "MY" way out....but it's unique to me. REMs aren't unique at all in their convention....so they mean technically the same as an arrow. However, I guess if the idea was "when you hit an REM....ignore it as it could be wrong" then you'd be safer. It'd still put quite a bit of doubt in my mind when I was exiting in no viz and came across someone else's REM that was pointing the other way.

As far as not getting their usefulness (I know that wasn't directed at me personally)....I really do, kinda. I understand their goal and purpose but don't believe them to be unique in their ability to convey any message. I don't know if this would divert the current thread, but I'd love to hear a scenario that a cookie/arrow combo couldn't fix that would require an REM....or a situation where an REM would be notably more useful. A few ideas were brought up in another forum but none sold me on the idea.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I contend in a slit out/lights out, there is no distinction between personal and permanent. I am not doubting you,but as I have seen discussed on other forums, there is some confusion here.

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I understand. Basically my opinion is that in true zero vis, any marker that can not be confirmed to be your own (through tactile feedback) should be dubious, since it is impossible to visually verify it.
This would include all system markers at T's, the 100' arrows in the Florida tourist caves or the permanently installed jump markers.

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I am not sure how much of the tip you are cutting off-10%, 25%, 50%..... To make it a REM I am sure a significant amount has to be cut off. My only concern is a very small amount if cut off (even 25%) you still have to slopes of the line arrow,that when some is stressed, rushed in an emergency may note that it isn't round, it isn't rectangular, so it must be a line arrow pointing in > this direction.

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I can see that the remaining shape of the arrow may a problem for some, so how about this? Flat or round side points to the exit,users choice. Needless to say these would need additional individualization to be able to verify them, like the two holes this one has.

Attachment 12962

Dagnabbit, Oliver....if you don't quit telling everybody what I do to my cookies and arrows, we're gonna have some issues!! I want to be unique at least a little bit! :D

Jokes aside, I have flattened the tips of my arrows and the "backs" of my cookies for making my cookies kinda-REMs and personally identifying both cookies and arrows. I really like my system.

to me, there doesn't seem to be a need for any of this. if you're really confused when you start passing opposing arrows, put a cookie on the outbound side of them

So, you are guys are essentially making REMs...be it your own design...but don't see a value in REMs? Is it because they weren't thought up and produced in the centre of the universe? And while you guys don't use them, you know the use and meaning of them. What confusion has that caused? They seem like a simple solution to me. Use them, don't use them, it's your choice. As long as the system you use gets everyone out of the cave safely. Just as I don't think Forrest mounted a crusade to make sure everyone used his arrows, I don't think Bil Phillips is planning a jihad to ensure the use of the REMs.

Cutting the tips off of cookies and arrows is not unique. I've seen it quite a bit. While I don't think a blunt tipped arrow would solve any confusion, I've seen cookies cut with an angle that could be used exactly like a REM.

All my cookies are distinctively marked by me to:


a) enable me to recognize them as mine in No Viz
b) enable me to identify direction to my exit


I won't write exactly what I do here as otherwise there is the chance of too many people copying it and that might defeat the purpose soon, but a cookie can easily be transformeds into a personal REM..
To me it always made sense to incorporate direction into my personal marker to begin with

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

All my cookies are distinctively marked by me to:


a) enable me to recognize them as mine in No Viz
b) enable me to identify direction to my exit


I won't write exactly what I do here as otherwise there is the chance of too many people copying it and that might defeat the purpose soon, but a cookie can easily be transformeds into a personal REM..
To me it always made sense to incorporate direction into my personal marker to begin with

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Yup

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Originally Posted by gearhound

...Just as I don't think Forrest mounted a crusade to make sure everyone used his arrows..

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You are right.

I have to agree with Kelly. If a cave diver is going to modify something to be a REM, they should use cookies. If someone gets confused by someone's modified arrows, and dies, they could be held to blame.

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Originally Posted by gearhound

So, you are guys are essentially making REMs...be it your own design...but don't see a value in REMs?

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Ignoring the grumpy crap, that's correct. The problem with REMs is that they mean the same thing to everyone. Same as an arrow, right? I know it's rectangular instead of triangular but it still clearly denotes an exit in one particular direction. I don't cut off arrow tips to make them REMs, I do that to make them unique. My cookies have a code on them that makes them unique to me AND signal a direction to me and only me. If you came across my cookie in the dark, you'd think it was a cookie. You wouldn't be able to understand the common convention that the "long side" of the rectangle (or triangle) means exit......it means something to me alone. THAT is the difference.

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Originally Posted by FW

You are right.

I have to agree with Kelly. If a cave diver is going to modify something to be a REM, they should use cookies. If someone gets confused by someone's modified arrows, and dies, they could be held to blame.

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I don't know where blame would lie, ethically or legally, but I agree that a personal directional non-directional marker shouldn't start with an arrow but with a cookie.

Arrow = Closest Exit
Rem = Someone's Exit (may or may not be closest)

What's the problem? I know you guys have to argue about something all the time, but this seems like a reach....

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

Ignoring the grumpy crap, that's correct. The problem with REMs is that they mean the same thing to everyone. Same as an arrow, right? I know it's rectangular instead of triangular but it still clearly denotes an exit in one particular direction. I don't cut off arrow tips to make them REMs, I do that to make them unique. My cookies have a code on them that makes them unique to me AND signal a direction to me and only me. If you came across my cookie in the dark, you'd think it was a cookie. You wouldn't be able to understand the common convention that the "long side" of the rectangle (or triangle) means exit......it means something to me alone. THAT is the difference.

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Sorry Vic, didn't mean to sound grumpy. I was more amused than anything. If you are de facto making your own REMs, obviously you see the need and value of them. Your subsequent argument seems to be - you're the only one smart enough to use them. Everybody else will get confused.
I'm not sure how you were taught, but I wasn't taught to drop markers haphazardly. I'll use a REM on a jump. I'm assuming if you came upon it on a zero viz exit, it would mean nothing to you because you didn't make that jump. If you did make a jump, I'm assuming on your exit, you'd be looking for your spool. My REM would still be disregarded in that case.
If you're dropping a marker to set up a circuit, you'd drop a cookie. Again, no confusion on the exit.
If you come upon my REM in perfect viz, I'm assuming you would have a look at it and know it wasn't yours. So you'd disregard it.
Marking a T - I would hope that you dropped a personal marker of your own. So my marker shouldn't matter to you.
"Killing" an arrow - my personal marker is right up next to the arrow. Cookie or REM shouldn't matter.
So forgive me if I fail to see where the confusion would come from with a properly trained and situationally aware cave diver. If they aren't, then they don't belong in the cave.

Life was so much easier when we just had arrows and clothespins.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Life was so much easier when we just had arrows and clothespins.

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I still use clothespins, but the newfangled ones meant to mark trails in the woods. They don't fall off.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HME-3...=trail+markers

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Originally Posted by gearhound

Sorry Vic, didn't mean to sound grumpy. I was more amused than anything. If you are de facto making your own REMs, obviously you see the need and value of them. Your subsequent argument seems to be - you're the only one smart enough to use them. Everybody else will get confused.
I'm not sure how you were taught, but I wasn't taught to drop markers haphazardly. I'll use a REM on a jump. I'm assuming if you came upon it on a zero viz exit, it would mean nothing to you because you didn't make that jump. If you did make a jump, I'm assuming on your exit, you'd be looking for your spool. My REM would still be disregarded in that case.
If you're dropping a marker to set up a circuit, you'd drop a cookie. Again, no confusion on the exit.
If you come upon my REM in perfect viz, I'm assuming you would have a look at it and know it wasn't yours. So you'd disregard it.
Marking a T - I would hope that you dropped a personal marker of your own. So my marker shouldn't matter to you.
"Killing" an arrow - my personal marker is right up next to the arrow. Cookie or REM shouldn't matter.
So forgive me if I fail to see where the confusion would come from with a properly trained and situationally aware cave diver. If they aren't, then they don't belong in the cave.

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The "grumpiness" was the whole "center of the universe" talk...and it's all good, it takes more than that to offend me. I just didn't want FL vs MX vs other to derail the thread.

With my personal markers, my point isn't that others aren't "smart" enough to use them...it's that to most people it'd simply be a cookie that has seen better days. They have a "code" on them....just for me.

My problem is a zero-viz exit. You REM a jump off of the main line after I go past that point. I swim back, in zero viz, and come upon a "T" with an REM on it. It points to a different exit. I feel that it's an REM, know it's not mine but it's pointing the opposite way of the exit (in my mind). Best case scenario, it puts a lot of doubt in my mind. I don't use REMs, but I know which side means "out." That doubt can be brutal.

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Originally Posted by FW

I still use clothespins, but the newfangled ones meant to mark trails in the woods. They don't fall off.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HME-3...=trail+markers

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Those are very cool. Somehow I took one of yours home with me. Thanks for the link. I'll order some.

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

My problem is a zero-viz exit. You REM a jump off of the main line after I go past that point. I swim back, in zero viz, and come upon a "T" with an REM on it. It points to a different exit. I feel that it's an REM, know it's not mine but it's pointing the opposite way of the exit (in my mind). Best case scenario, it puts a lot of doubt in my mind. I don't use REMs, but I know which side means "out." That doubt can be brutal.

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I do tie my jumps directly into my REM. When you come upon my "T", I was taught that you feel the lines. If I feel a double line, that indicates that someone tied into the line that I'm on (Whether it's directly on the line or tied into a marker). If it wasn't me that tied into that line, then I know to ignore it and continue on. If it was me that tied in a jump, then I should be on the spool side of the jump on exit correct? And isn't it taught that you trust only the markers that you've verified or placed on the way in? And you should remember whether you navigated a "T" on the way in or not shouldn't you?
We did blindfolded drills with these scenarios in training.

That makes a lot of sense, and is what I was trained to do. I'm still certain it would add some uncertainty/doubt if the REM pointed away from where I thought the exit was. I agree it shouldn't cause a problem, but I see no need for them over a customised cookie. I see some disadvantages, but it seems like they're not well founded fears. It's cool to hear that from someone trained in that environment and diving REMs often. I might have to get a few to try before I give up on them completely.

Vic, stick to the system that you're comfortable with. It's what you'll revert to when the crap hits the fan. As long as your buddy knows exactly what's going on. Your way is perfectly valid.

I was just allaying the fears some people had regarding REMs. I find them quite easy to use, but I wouldn't tell a guy like Forrest that what he was doing was wrong. He's done more cave than I can even dream of, and what he does has kept him going all of these years ;)

It seems that no matter how you turn it, someone may get confused with any of the available pseudo-directional or directional markers discussed (arrows, REM's, modified arrows/cookies).

So I'm thinking that I may just stick with the old procedure of placing clothespins or cookies at T's and using arrows for jumps (or the single/double arrow already on the line, if there is such a marker). If the dive is a team dive, it may make sense to have everyone drop a marker at the T's and especially at the jumps to be able to see who returned on the jump and who didn't.

I'll do my best not to contradict the direction of the closest exit. However, putting an arrow on the line pointing to an exit I have not verified myself, sounds like a somewhat warped idea too.
What if someone in BM follows my arrow, finds out the closest exit is not very BM compatible?

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

It seems that no matter how you turn it, someone may get confused with any of the available pseudo-directional or directional markers discussed (arrows, REM's, modified arrows/cookies).

So I'm thinking that I may just stick with the old procedure of placing clothespins or cookies at T's and using arrows for jumps (or the single/double arrow already on the line, if there is such a marker). If the dive is a team dive, it may make sense to have everyone drop a marker at the T's and especially at the jumps to be able to see who returned on the jump and who didn't.

I'll do my best not to contradict the direction of the closest exit. However, putting an arrow on the line pointing to an exit I have not verified myself, sounds like a somewhat warped idea too.
What if someone in BM follows my arrow, finds out the closest exit is not very BM compatible?

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I like your plan, and it's what I'm sticking to. As for dropping an arrow that points to a "grumpy" exit....I don't see the problem there as long as the arrow you dropped points the same direction as all of the other arrows.

I will say that I've started thinking differently about these situations. I think my SOP is going to be dropping cookies. In the case of an unmarked jump (or jumping not between arrows) will be to tie my jump onto a cookie and place another cookie on my exit side. If there's one arrow, I'll drop my cookie on my exit side and place my jump in the middle of it and the arrow. Thoughts?

I am really confused by this thread. The REMs (that Bil created) are *intended* to be a personal exit reference *only* - If I was in silty cave in Mexico exiting on the line coming across a REM would be like coming across a rock... Follow the line to around it, nothing more, nothing less. Quite simply, REMs have no meaning except to the person who put them in the line!!! (Unless it was my buddy and he/she left me a mini-note on the slate-ish length!! [emoji6])

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

I am really confused by this thread. The REMs (that Bil created) are *intended* to be a personal exit reference *only* - If I was in silty cave in Mexico exiting on the line coming across a REM would be like coming across a rock... Follow the line to around it, nothing more, nothing less. Quite simply, REMs have no meaning except to the person who put them in the line!!! (Unless it was my buddy and he/she left me a mini-note on the slate-ish length!! [emoji6])

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Personalizations are very hard to feel when stressed and not looking for particular ones. Many people dive unmodified REMs, so you could come across someone else's that is identical in feel to your own or your buddy's. You could be using "team markers" and assume it's your buddy's. REMs are NOT non-directional. REMs are very much directional.

I understand there are other factors and procedures you can take into account, and I think Gearhound has brought up many points. I do not think it unreasonable, however, to bring up that REMs have some potential disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

Personalizations are very hard to feel when stressed and not looking for particular ones. Many people dive unmodified REMs, so you could come across someone else's that is identical in feel to your own or your buddy's. You could be using "team markers" and assume it's your buddy's. REMs are NOT non-directional. REMs are very much directional.

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But coming across a REM will always indicate that it is not a permanent marker that someone has placed there, so stressed or not one should be trained enough to understand that.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


Somewhere there has to be a line for SELFRESPONSIBILTY..
So I have no remorse whatsoever that someone else could mistake MY Rem for theirs. It is their F+++ Up not mine..
I myself will make very sure that I recognize my own!
Different story with arrows pointing in a different direction than the closest exit, even if this is how I was taught so also there would be merit, but I can see the point of using a Rem in such situation over an arrow..
But now starting to argue that a Rem could create an issue for someone else?
Come on!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

As for dropping an arrow that points to a "grumpy" exit....I don't see the problem there as long as the arrow you dropped points the same direction as all of the other arrows.

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Well, that may be straightforward in Florida where you would be unlikely to find arrows pointing you through a sidemount passage to the nearest exit.

In other countries, especially in Mexico, I see issues with this approach.

Imagine this scenario.

You're diving along a line that has no arrows whatsoever, other than jump arrows (if any). At one point you come across a back to back arrow, indicating there is now a closer exit ahead.
So lets assume that 150' after that you place a jump with an arrow pointing to that new exit, an exit that you have never actually seen and verified.

The next thing is an unsuspecting diver who, for some reason or the other, gets onto your jump line from other side (towards the main entrance), for example through a side passage. This diver now sees your jump and the arrow, pointing to the new exit. The diver may know nothing about the opposing back to back arrows and the directional change, believing this is his exit.
Good luck if he is in backmount, is stupid enough to trust the arrow and the exit goes through a SM restriction.

So maybe the solution is, drop an arrow (if so preferred) only when the nearest exit matches your exit. In case the nearest exit is not yours and/or unverified, tie into a cookie instead of an arrow and use a second cookie (or better still a clothespin) to mark your exit side.

I completely agree... The point is that REMs are ALWAYS intended to be personal markers so anyone coming across one should figure out whether it is theirs and if not, completely ignore it and move on. Period, end of story. And if someone hasn't marked their own REMs, bad on them, hopefully they've been been paying attention to the cave. Back to personal responsibility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

But coming across a REM will always indicate that it is not a permanent marker that someone has placed there, so stressed or not one should be trained enough to understand that.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


Somewhere there has to be a line for SELFRESPONSIBILTY..
So I have no remorse whatsoever that someone else could mistake MY Rem for theirs. It is their F+++ Up not mine..
I myself will make very sure that I recognize my own!
Different story with arrows pointing in a different direction than the closest exit, even if this is how I was taught so also there would be merit, but I can see the point of using a Rem in such situation over an arrow..
But now starting to argue that a Rem could create an issue for someone else?
Come on!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

I completely agree... The point is that REMs are ALWAYS intended to be personal markers so anyone coming across one should figure out whether it is theirs and if not, completely ignore it and move on. Period, end of story.

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Bil's REMs are fine. The only problem I see is someone being cheap, and trying to modify arrows to serve as REMs.

FWIW, I agree with Nitrogenius about personal markers.

I'm pretty sure one can get arrows for much less $$ than REMs so I don't see that as an issue! [emoji4]

Personally I think there is a place for all three types of markers (even though I was not taught the use of REMs! Gasp!). But (it should go without saying but...) everyone on the team has to be on the same page about the utilization of the markers from both a placement and removal/non-removal perspective, including times of stress eg lost buddy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

Bil's REMs are fine. The only problem I see is someone being cheap, and trying to modify arrows to serve as REMs.

FWIW, I agree with Nitrogenius about personal markers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

But coming across a REM will always indicate that it is not a permanent marker that someone has placed there, so stressed or not one should be trained enough to understand that.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


Somewhere there has to be a line for SELFRESPONSIBILTY..
So I have no remorse whatsoever that someone else could mistake MY Rem for theirs. It is their F+++ Up not mine..
I myself will make very sure that I recognize my own!
Different story with arrows pointing in a different direction than the closest exit, even if this is how I was taught so also there would be merit, but I can see the point of using a Rem in such situation over an arrow..
But now starting to argue that a Rem could create an issue for someone else?
Come on!

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That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Well, that may be straightforward in Florida where you would be unlikely to find arrows pointing you through a sidemount passage to the nearest exit.

In other countries, especially in Mexico, I see issues with this approach.

Imagine this scenario.

You're diving along a line that has no arrows whatsoever, other than jump arrows (if any). At one point you come across a back to back arrow, indicating there is now a closer exit ahead.
So lets assume that 150' after that you place a jump with an arrow pointing to that new exit, an exit that you have never actually seen and verified.

The next thing is an unsuspecting diver who, for some reason or the other, gets onto your jump line from other side (towards the main entrance), for example through a side passage. This diver now sees your jump and the arrow, pointing to the new exit. The diver may know nothing about the opposing back to back arrows and the directional change, believing this is his exit.
Good luck if he is in backmount, is stupid enough to trust the arrow and the exit goes through a SM restriction.

So maybe the solution is, drop an arrow (if so preferred) only when the nearest exit matches your exit. In case the nearest exit is not yours and/or unverified, tie into a cookie instead of an arrow and use a second cookie (or better still a clothespin) to mark your exit side.

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That's absolutely a mistake on the part of the other diver. Cave arrows in Mx point towards the closest exit. Navigational errors are not the cause of the arrow as long as the arrows agree. If you have conflicting arrows, that's a problem....but if all arrows in the area point in the same direction then there's no fault of whoever dropped the one arrow. If you take someone else's jump, follow someone else's arrow (that the jump is tied to) but ignore the permanently installed ones.....all while doing a dive in a part of the cave you're unfamiliar with and diving towards an unverified exit? I'm sorry, that's clearly the fault of the diver. Regardless, I'm thinking about changing my procedure over to all-cookies anyway...as mentioned above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

That's absolutely a mistake on the part of the other diver. Cave arrows in Mx point towards the closest exit. Navigational errors are not the cause of the arrow as long as the arrows agree. If you have conflicting arrows, that's a problem....

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In my opinion conflicting arrows are not a problem. I've come upon many arrows that pointed in the (to me) wrong direction. Usually I try to figure out why they do that and usually (not always) there is some obvious reason for it.
Either way, I don't care where the arrow points, I just mark the T's.

I believe it is inherently dangerous to blindly trust any arrow that is installed. A diver should know at all times which direction is out and be 100% sure about it. If there is just the slightest bit of doubt at any point in time, it's time for a sharp exit.

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

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You can use them as a mini slate and write something on them, plus point the wider side towards the exit or towards your favorite passage or wherever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOq828tU7lQ

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

You can use them as a mini slate and write something on them, plus point the wider side towards the exit or towards your favorite passage or wherever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOq828tU7lQ

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but cant you put a cookie towards your exit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

.
If you say that personalizations are hard to feel when stressed and might be mistaken --> Work on your personalization! It is your OWN job to make sure you recognize your stuff over others stuff and nobody else's responsibility.


!

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When I am referring to a stressed team making a rapid exit, I am not always referring to the people who placed it,but another team that may encounter it in an emergency. This was tested by a cave instructor who put line arrows on a section of line, with a couple conflicting line arrows, and simulated a rapid emergency. The team missed the conflicting markers because their duration to study the marker was a nanosecond.

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

Personally I think there is a place for all three types of markers.

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I would make it 4, clothes pins are very viable

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

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It adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.

And for you people that want to tell me how things are done in Mexico, THIS is a picture of a telephone pole in Mexico City, do you really want to tell me how well you string things together? This is worse than Ginnie on memorial day.

http://i.imgur.com/7gGjywy.jpg

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

It adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.

And for you people that want to tell me how things are done in Mexico, THIS is a picture of a telephone pole in Mexico City, do you really want to tell me how well you string things together? This is worse than Ginnie on memorial day.

http://i.imgur.com/7gGjywy.jpg

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agreed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

It adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.

.

http://i.imgur.com/7gGjywy.jpg

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In a couple systems all the markers are becoming like range balls at a golf course. If they are noticed there for awhile they get pulled and become public domain (more or less)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

Personally I think there is a place for all three types of markers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I would make it 4, clothes pins are very viable

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What are the benefits of other markers that REMs do not provide? This is a serious question. When would it be a disadvantage to put a marker down that is 1) personally identifiable and 2) directional to the owner (or team) but non directional to anyone else?

I can easily see the use of arrows, cookies and clothespins in certain circumstances, but can not see the disadvantage of using a REM.

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody. Everybody knows that the long side is the exit side.

Edit: I'm not saying it's a HUGE deal, but I'm saying they're very certainly NOT non-directional markers.

Then don't use them.

I do ask, how exactly are you thinking people are using them? It's not like people are rushing out to buy REMs to leave them haphazardly on lines, especially if you think they are expensive (they cost the exact same on the aqualung website). I think most people are deliberate about where they will place a line marker. I've already gone over the scenarios. I'll drop a REM to tie a jump into. It shouldn't cause confusion for anybody. It's a jump. If I'm leaving a marker for a promising lead on exploration, I drop a cookie. If I'm marking a way point on a circuit, I drop a cookie. At a T, I'll drop a REM marking my exit. It may not be your exit, but I'd assume that you were trained to drop your own personal marker indicating your exit at a T. It shouldn't matter whether it's a cookie, REM or clothespin, you should be looking for your own personal marker at the T.

Let's say that there is a REM tied on the middle of the line. Did you not look at it and reference it on the way in? So it shouldn't be a surprise on the way out.

I'm not sure if people are arguing just to argue, or if they are saying situational awareness isn't part of the training curicullum anymore. But a REM should not cause confusion for anybody.

(Vic, this wasn't directed at you personally. We were writing at the same time)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody. Everybody knows that the long side is the exit side.

Edit: I'm not saying it's a HUGE deal, but I'm saying they're very certainly NOT non-directional markers.

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First, I'm not just talking about using the Apeks model that is a rectangle. So it is definitely not clear to everyone what they mean. Mine are modified round cookies. I guess you can tell that the modification involves a way to denote direction FOR ME. But as others have said, if it ain't your marker, then just ignore it. If you choose to assume a direction from someone else's personal marker, then you are a total screw up and I won't feel sorry for anything that happens. And REMs won't clutter the cave because you would be dropping some marker there anyway.

So I ask again, what advantages do other personal markers like arrows, cookies or clothespins have over REMs?

it seems like a good way to get bil some beer money.

Kwinter, the advantage for most cave divers is that we dont have to go buy a bunch of new markers with zero benefit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

First, I'm not just talking about using the Apeks model that is a rectangle. So it is definitely not clear to everyone what they mean. Mine are modified round cookies. I guess you can tell that the modification involves a way to denote direction FOR ME. But as others have said, if it ain't your marker, then just ignore it. If you choose to assume a direction from someone else's personal marker, then you are a total screw up and I won't feel sorry for anything that happens. And REMs won't clutter the cave because you would be dropping some marker there anyway.

So I ask again, what advantages do other personal markers like arrows, cookies or clothespins have over REMs?

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If by "REM" you mean "personalized cookies" then it's a different story. This thread seems to be referring to REMs as the professionaly made ones designed that way. I'm pro REM-ish cookies. I'm not anti-REMs. I just don't think they're without their disadvantages. Not seeing it, to me, is simply not admitting it. Everything has SOME inherent weakness. Bil's REMs have some weaknesses as well. The biggest, in my mind, is their popularity. If nobody were diving them but him, they'd be the greatest things ever. When they're common enough that most cave divers know which side means "out" then it starts adding some weakness to it. When you drop a marker MEANT to be non-directional, but it is clearly directional to all divers passing it....why drop a non-directional in the first place?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

it seems like a good way to get bil some beer money.

Kwinter, the advantage for most cave divers is that we dont have to go buy a bunch of new markers with zero benefit

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I'm sure he's getting rich off of them like Forrest is raking in the dough with cave arrows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gearhound

I'm sure he's getting rich off of them like Forrest is raking in the dough with cave arrows.

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:rollguy

However it is too bad I didn't get a patent. Since the arrows are all made by gear manufactures, I never made any money at all on them.

I agree that there is an advantage to using what you already own, and I was not suggesting that people throw away arrows and buy new REMs. But for new cave divers and students, what would be the disadvantage of buying a bunch of cookies and marking them to make them personal and directional? What would be the downside to carrying only one type of marker instead or 2 or 3 or 4? What would be the disadvantage of not having directional arrows?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

What are the benefits of other markers that REMs do not provide? This is a serious question. When would it be a disadvantage to put a marker down that is 1) personally identifiable and 2) directional to the owner (or team) but non directional to anyone else?

I can easily see the use of arrows, cookies and clothespins in certain circumstances, but can not see the disadvantage of using a REM.

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I think of the 1000's of successful cave dives with only clothes pins and line arrows. Where I think all the things like line navigation aides are wonderful, at what point is there too many, and a tendency to over complicate something.

just seems like a superfluous doo-dad to me that serves no purpose. i'm never going to want to do a dive without real cave arrows in my pocket so it comes down to do i want these instead of cookies.
for me, the answer is no

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

I agree that there is an advantage to using what you already own, and I was not suggesting that people throw away arrows and buy new REMs. But for new cave divers and students, what would be the disadvantage of buying a bunch of cookies and marking them to make them personal and directional? What would be the downside to carrying only one type of marker instead or 2 or 3 or 4? What would be the disadvantage of not having directional arrows?

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What is the disadvantage to just taking your old caths and clothes-pinning them to the line, nozzle side pointing out? That is personal and directional, and no one will take them.

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody.

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Yes, but you're a dumbass if you follow a REM that you don't know is yours. That's the point, they should only mean something to the person that placed it. Just like I can look at a person's cookie and figure out what it's saying, but it ain't mine so I don't follow it.

I don't think the REM is the end all be all, it's just another option that some prefer. In places like Mexico it can be better than a simple cookie and can be safer than a contradictory arrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

so....what do these do that a cookie doesn't? besides reduce the weight of your wallet

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They provide an option to tie a Jump into a line directly on the marker but not using an arrow and still giving yourself and only yourself/your team your exit reference.
A cookie not so much. You could achieve the same with 2 cookies (one to tie in and one to give direction.


Where is this usable and of advantage over tying into the standard (an arrow)?
At exactly thos passages where your direction is different from the arrows pointing to the nearest exit.


BTW for me a REM is exactly what it stands for: A Reference Exit Marker.
Mine are actually cookies, from which I can tell my exit direction by personalization. I do not carry unpersonalized cookies..
So to say I am using only arrows and REMs in a cave, no cookies..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

They provide an option to tie a Jump into a line directly on the marker but not using an arrow and still giving yourself and only yourself/your team your exit reference.
A cookie not so much. You could achieve the same with 2 cookies (one to tie in and one to give direction.


Where is this usable and of advantage over tying into the standard (an arrow)?
At exactly thos passages where your direction is different from the arrows pointing to the nearest exit.


BTW for me a REM is exactly what it stands for: A Reference Exit Marker.
Mine are actually cookies, from which I can tell my exit direction by personalization. I do not carry unpersonalized cookies..
So to say I am using only arrows and REMs in a cave, no cookies..

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why do you need to do that? sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody. Everybody knows that the long side is the exit side.

Edit: I'm not saying it's a HUGE deal, but I'm saying they're very certainly NOT non-directional markers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Yes, but you're a dumbass if you follow a REM that you don't know is yours. That's the point, they should only mean something to the person that placed it. Just like I can look at a person's cookie and figure out what it's saying, but it ain't mine so I don't follow it.

I don't think the REM is the end all be all, it's just another option that some prefer. In places like Mexico it can be better than a simple cookie and can be safer than a contradictory arrow.

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Exactly. Victor you seem to forget the most essential point of a REM! When you find one on a line (no matter how stressed or not) you KNOW that this is not a permanent marker, so you KNOW you MUST only trust your own markers, so you MUST verify whether such REM is yours or not. If it is not yours or even if you are unsure, you are safer to ignore it as if it was not there at all and find the next arrow / cookie negated arrow to confirm direction (if you where unsure, which you should not as I agree with Oliver on this aspect)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I think of the 1000's of successful cave dives with only clothes pins and line arrows. Where I think all the things like line navigation aides are wonderful, at what point is there too many, and a tendency to over complicate something.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

just seems like a superfluous doo-dad to me that serves no purpose. i'm never going to want to do a dive without real cave arrows in my pocket so it comes down to do i want these instead of cookies.
for me, the answer is no

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These are both fine statements of why arrows, cookies and clothespins are good. But they do not address the issue of what advantage they have. As for having too many kinds of markers, maybe over time personal arrows, cookies and clothespins would phase out and fade away in favor of a single multi-purpose marker. Arrows will always have a place as permanent markers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

What is the disadvantage to just taking your old caths and clothes-pinning them to the line, nozzle side pointing out? That is personal and directional, and no one will take them.

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Ok, finally a unique solution. But there aren't enough She-P users, so you would be limiting the number of women cave divers. And we would need a system to identify the type of intersection based on size. And then there would be the liars that are so embarrassed by their shortcomings that they place an incorrect marker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Mine are actually cookies, from which I can tell my exit direction by personalization. I do not carry unpersonalized cookies..
So to say I am using only arrows and REMs in a cave, no cookies..

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Ditto for me. Except I am saying maybe to use only REMS and not cookies or arrows.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

why do you need to do that? sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me

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Because if you tie directly onto a line (and I am talking about an offboard Jump not an end of line Jump) the line is suspect and capable to move. It even might be moved as far as being out of reach of your cookie.


This is how I have been taught (always tie into a marker in that case even an arrow going offboard), and it had been demonstrated in training that it only takes one inattentive diver passing to move your directly tied line out of reach (e.g. by catching it with the fins and push it etc etc.)

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Originally Posted by kwinter

Ditto for me. Except I am saying maybe to use only REMS and not cookies or arrows.

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For me an arrow is still the preferred way to tie into as in a potential stress/no vis exit the check/identifying of the marker and direction is in fact faster and more secure.. Hitting a REM (and that might be the only real disadvantage) the verification that it is yours takes a tight bit longer and care.
Kelly is right in that regards..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Exactly. Victor you seem to forget the most essential point of a REM! When you find one on a line (no matter how stressed or not) you KNOW that this is not a permanent marker, so you KNOW you MUST only trust your own markers, so you MUST verify whether such REM is yours or not. If it is not yours or even if you are unsure, you are safer to ignore it as if it was not there at all and find the next arrow / cookie negated arrow to confirm direction (if you where unsure, which you should not as I agree with Oliver on this aspect)

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Like I've said before. I personally get it. We all get it at the surface when everything is fine. I'm wondering how much you'd get it under a real emergency. There are stories on another thread of a diver mistaking a sidewinder style primary for the big red Dive Rite top handled primary.

As for modified cookies versus the pro manufactured square ones: that's precisely what I'm suggesting as the best of both worlds. It's a cookie to others but an arrow to you.

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Originally Posted by kwinter

And then there would be the liars that are so embarrassed by their shortcomings that they place an incorrect marker.

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Someone got some spare 42 mils ? ;) hahaha..

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Someone got some spare 42 mils ? ;) hahaha..

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0.42mils? I didn't think they came that small. A friend professionally does micro machining, so I could ask him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

As for modified cookies versus the pro manufactured square ones: that's precisely what I'm suggesting as the best of both worlds. It's a cookie to others but an arrow to you.

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Yes but there is only quite limited ways to make a cookie directional for oneself as well.. As soon as this is more and more practiced and copied you get to the same issue as with the readily manufactured REMs ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by victorzamora

0.42mils?

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oh you want a 0. added.. Sure .. 0.42 '' diameter works as well ;)

After nine pages of this, and most of you haven't figured out WHY there are REMs in the first place. They have little use in Florida, since there aren't many caves where they would be needed. They are for Mexican systems with multiple entrances, and multiple routes through the system. The whole point is to mark the way you came, and not confuse other divers taking a different route. While I do agree that that is what clothespins, and cookies are for, they aren't hurting anything.

So what are clothspins for?
I learned these were for antiques ;)


Kidding aside: I understood that clothspins have been used in lieu and exactly as a cookie.
Somehow I get the impression that in Florida these are used for a specific reason other than in lieu of a cookie?


If the clothspins are used as a Cookie how do you resolve marking your direction at an offboard Jump when the arrows are not pointing towards your exit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So what are clothspins for?
I learned these were for antiques ;)


Kidding aside: I understood that clothspins have been used in lieu and exactly as a cookie.
Somehow I get the impression that in Florida these are used for a specific reason other than in lieu of a cookie?


If the clothspins are used as a Cookie how do you resolve marking your direction at an offboard Jump when the arrows are not pointing towards your exit?

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You put the clothespin on the side you came from, just like a cookie. The cookie was also invented in Mexico, but they have started to become popular in Florida, and are replacing clothespins now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So what are clothspins for?
I learned these were for antiques ;)


Kidding aside: I understood that clothspins have been used in lieu and exactly as a cookie.
Somehow I get the impression that in Florida these are used for a specific reason other than in lieu of a cookie?

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Clothespins are used instead of cookies because they are easier to clip on and off a line than cookies. Sadly, they are also easier to fall off your bungie/tubing holder, too. I can't tell you how many clothespins (some busted) that I've found floating around in caves. Convenient, but worthless.

Maybe FW's new clippy tags will be better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

You put the clothespin on the side you came from, just like a cookie. The cookie was also invented in Mexico, but they have started to become popular in Florida, and are replacing clothespins now.

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So you tie the spool directly into the line and put a clothspin next to it in your direction?
That does not sound like a very safe way of marking to me.. both the line and the marker could easily move along the line
I'd see the use of a Rem in that case much safer.
As stated earlier I could also see the use of 2 cookies, one to tie in (and by that fix the tied in line at this specific point) and a cookie next to it marking your direction


Out of curiosity for those using clothspins.. Are these and if so how personalized so you can identify them in no vis?

I use clothes pins for T's, note an area of interest I plan to come back to, hold my jump line in place, survey stations etc. Very fast to deploy and stow once used. Where people say they are easy to knock off the line,this has never been an issue for me,but can't say it won't happen. There are cheap clothes pins with poor tension that I stay away from,but have found that the wood ones have better spring tension and don't break as easily as the plastic ones.

Actually I was taught to use both a cookie and a clothespin together. The cookie ties your spool to the line (safer than tying directly in) and the clothespin gets put on the exit side of the cookie. Maybe that seems like using suspenders and a belt, but that's what I was taught. Which is one reason I think the personal directional cookie or REM is an improvement.

I see the value of REM's and I will follow one only if I can verify that is my guide's REM. For myself, find gendered cookies more convenient. The personalization on my cookies also has a directional meaning for me. I have learned from experience to put a cookie on the Peacock side of the Cisteen jump so that my buddy won't go swimming up to Olsen Sink.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

Actually I was taught to use both a cookie and a clothespin together. The cookie ties your spool to the line (safer than tying directly in) and the clothespin gets put on the exit side of the cookie.

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So exchanging the clothspin by a cookie this would exactly be what I meant by using 2 cookies to do that..
Interesting that this is being taught by someone already. In the past I had gotten no reaction whenever I suggested this as a possible way forward..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So exchanging the clothspin by a cookie this would exactly be what I meant by using 2 cookies to do that..
Interesting that this is being taught by someone already. In the past I had gotten no reaction whenever I suggested this as a possible way forward..

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Yeah, it's something that I'm beginning to believe may be the best option for me.

Re:clothes pins, what are people s preference wood vs plastic and how do you personalize them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by patpicos

Re:clothes pins, what are people s preference wood vs plastic and how do you personalize them

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Mine are wood (Walmart, $1.88 for 100). If dropped or forgotten in the cave, wood will rot fairly quickly, plastic not so much.
I write my initials on them.