Does buoyancy and proper trim come easier with backmount as opposed to sidemount?

I am doing the sidemount course now and am having a lot of trouble with my buoyancy and trim.

Often (even at the surface if I lay on my face) I will flip over (right side seems to take me).

During the first day I had problems with my legs taking me up, but now it just seems to be one side.

Any ideas (everything is in place as my instructor has checked)?

Is backmount similar to single tank rec diving (as I have zero problems doing single tank rec diving) for buoyancy and trim?

I thought SM would be better for my back in the long run, but honestly it seems likes more work (ie 2 to 3 trips to the water lugging gear instead of 1).

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Originally Posted by Great White7

I am doing the sidemount course now and am having a lot of trouble with my buoyancy and trim.

Often (even at the surface if I lay on my face) I will flip over (right side seems to take me).

During the first day I had problems with my legs taking me up, but now it just seems to be one side.

Any ideas (everything is in place as my instructor has checked)?

Is backmount similar to single tank rec diving (as I have zero problems doing single tank rec diving) for buoyancy and trim?

I thought SM would be better for my back in the long run, but honestly it seems likes more work (ie 2 to 3 trips to the water lugging gear instead of 1).

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You can clip everything on and make it a one trip walk. To me, its easier to carry the tanks separately without my wetsuit on, then dress up and just walk down. Getting out of the water, I don't do three trips. I just leave both tanks clipped on and walk back to the truck. Depending on the dive site, I have clipped both tanks on and walked them down to the water. It all depends on where I'm diving and how lazy I feel.

What rig are you diving? A really good one like the Hollis SMS 75 will pretty much throw you into good trim.

If you are using old school bungees, make sure that both bungees are the exact same length. a small difference will make a big difference.

If you're having to work to stay in trim SOMETHING is not adjusted properly.

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Originally Posted by Great White7

I am doing the sidemount course now and am having a lot of trouble with my buoyancy and trim.

Often (even at the surface if I lay on my face) I will flip over (right side seems to take me).

During the first day I had problems with my legs taking me up, but now it just seems to be one side.

Any ideas (everything is in place as my instructor has checked)?

Is backmount similar to single tank rec diving (as I have zero problems doing single tank rec diving) for buoyancy and trim?

I thought SM would be better for my back in the long run, but honestly it seems likes more work (ie 2 to 3 trips to the water lugging gear instead of 1).

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I am probably not the best person to answer this, since I have been sidemounting for over 30 years. I used to switch between backmount, and sidemount, but broke down all my backmount tanks over 10 years ago.

Backmount is pretty easy to get trim with, but I have seen people that could never get it right, and did fine in sidemount. I have also seen the opposite to be true.

How experienced is your instructor? is he/she new to sidemount, or has he/she been diving sidemount a long time? Like cmint asked, what rig are you using? That can make a very big difference in the ability to get trim.

What fins are you using? Are you using aluminum, or steel tanks? Do you have any trim weights? Are you training in fresh, or salt water? It seems like I recall you have had some single tank experience, how much?

Historically in my overhead teaching experience BM is easier for new cave students than SM. There are exceptions of course.

TF


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

In my experience with training divers, some have no trouble with trim/buoyancy no matter the system, and others struggle regardless of SM or BM. By and large, however, it seems that students have fewer issues with SM than BM...

I don't much care for the double trips to carry tanks either for sm, but I dislike carrying doubles even more. I haven't tried leaving them clipped on, but I have carried both back by hand and it's not that bad....a bit cumbersome though. I found buoyancy and trim to be easy in either bm/sm, probably a bit easier in sm. Like others said, would need more info on your specifics and at that point I'm deferring to those with much more experience than myself on the different rigs.

Also I question the instructor if they are their on site and can't sort you out.....sounds suspect to me. Maybe they are screwing with you (even unintentionally) and gave you mismatched tanks with a more negative tank on your right side. Something is out of whack for sure, if both sides are basically balanced in config and weight and you're still rolling right, something is being overlooked.

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Originally Posted by cmint

What rig are you diving? A really good one like the Hollis SMS 75 will pretty much throw you into good trim.

make sure that both bungees are the exact same length.

If you're having to work to stay in trim SOMETHING is not adjusted properly.

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Its a razor.

It only has one bungee.

Yep something seems to be out.

I have perfect trim doing rec diving with a single tank.

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Originally Posted by FW

How experienced is your instructor?

What fins are you using? Are you using aluminum, or steel tanks? Do you have any trim weights? Are you training in fresh, or salt water? It seems like I recall you have had some single tank experience, how much?

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He seems very experienced and is not quick to anger like most, so I feel he is very good.

My fins are cressi reaction (rec fins) and these I always thought would be wrong for cave diving. Will check out some Jet fins today as they are neg buoyant.

Not sure, around 500 dives.

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Originally Posted by BigTex1836

Also I question the instructor if they are their on site and can't sort you out.....sounds suspect to me. Maybe they are screwing with you (even unintentionally) and gave you mismatched tanks with a more negative tank on your right side. Something is out of whack for sure, if both sides are basically balanced in config and weight and you're still rolling right, something is being overlooked.

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From what I can tell, he is a very decent person. Yesterday I had had enough and in the middle of a drill I called the dive and we went out of the water.
A "normal" person would have been angry but he bit his lip and was fine about it.
The tanks look and feel exactly the same and we have talked about it.

I know I have been tired (run down) the last few days, but am not sure how this could make things worse, but it could be a factor.
It does seem to get worse the longer the day goes on.

Tired and run down, you say? Do you have sinus issues, trouble clearing your ears at times? You can have small issues with your ears, and you will never get trim with any type of rig.

ANd as far as carrying tanks, that is why God made wheels. Get at least a pair, like a hand truck or cart.

I keep my tanks high and tight in SM, bungied in closer to my armpits. I can roll over and the tanks don't move much.
The only issues I had when learning were caused by tank movement.

Their many more variables in SM because you can place your tanks quite a bit differently.

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Originally Posted by Great White7

From what I can tell, he is a very decent person.

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Don't misread me....I hope that he is just that. I was thinking that either a) he was testing you for problem solving or b) something is genuinely amiss. If he's causing issues with malicious intent (vs instructional problems) then he has no business teaching imo. Interested to read what the final resolution is once it's sorted out.

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Originally Posted by Great White7

Its a razor.

It only has one bungee.

Yep something seems to be out.

I have perfect trim doing rec diving with a single tank.

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I bet the guys on here could help out a LOT more if you had a video you could share.... Have your instructor shoot some video and post it, if they don't mind a lot of outside quarterbacking of their instruction. I know video helps me fine tune... we video every dive... I film on way in, my buddy films on way out (or vs). It REALLY helps.

Tim

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Tired and run down, you say? Do you have sinus issues, trouble clearing your ears at times? You can have small issues with your ears, and you will never get trim with any type of rig.

ANd as far as carrying tanks, that is why God made wheels. Get at least a pair, like a hand truck or cart.

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Sometimes it takes a little effort to clear my ears (ie I have to blow and not just move my jaw around). Does not effect me with single tank rec diving tho.

There are too many stairs to use a cart etc.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

I bet the guys on here could help out a LOT more if you had a video you could share.... Have your instructor shoot some video and post it, if they don't mind a lot of outside quarterbacking of their instruction. I know video helps me fine tune... we video every dive... I film on way in, my buddy films on way out (or vs). It REALLY helps.

Tim

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Thats what I was thinking.
Because I cannot see myself, I have no idea what is wrong.
I used to video myself when I was sheep shearing so I see what was wrong, and improve faster.

We are going to the pool tomorrow so I will get some then.
Thanks.

FWIW, don't get too discouraged. I'm unusual in that I learned to dive sidemount from the very beginning. I had never touched a pair of doubles in my life.

One day my dive buddy and I were at Ginnie and we decided to switch rigs... I figured it would be a piece of cake.

Not so. I strapped on his 108's and have never been so unstable in my life. I felt like I was going to flip upside down. I gave up, dumped all my air and literally crawled back to the steps in disgrace.

Even the loggerhead musk turtles and mullet were laughing at me.

Never again. I can single tank sidemount easier than I can wear doubles in the middle of my back.

I have this much to say... Y'all can keep your doubles. I'll just be diving sidemount. Thanks!

Sounds like your bungee may be lopsided, too long on the right. Or you're getting the back in clipped in differently. Check the length on all the straps, make sure something isn't adjusted too far out or in.

Or your wing is not filling evenly, like the bladder is bunched maybe. But these are generally something that another person should be able to see and help you with in the water.

If you can get a good video of yourself in the water from all sides that might help to diagnose it.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

Sounds like your bungee may be lopsided, too long on the right. Or you're getting the back in clipped in differently. Check the length on all the straps, make sure something isn't adjusted too far out or in.

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The left tank is easy to strap in, while the right one takes a bit.
But its all one bungy as far as I know.

Will get some video tomorrow.

One other thing, when I dont wear a wetsuit (ie in the pool), its almost perfect as soon as I jump in. The only thing is I tend to drift forward a tiny bit, but there is no left/right issues.

So maybe this will help diagnose the problem?!

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Originally Posted by Great White7

One other thing, when I dont wear a wetsuit (ie in the pool), its almost perfect as soon as I jump in. The only thing is I tend to drift forward a tiny bit, but there is no left/right issues.

So maybe this will help diagnose the problem?!

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You never did say if you were using aluminum, or steel tanks. With a razor harness, that would make a great deal of difference.

Ok will find out tomorrow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Tired and run down, you say? Do you have sinus issues, trouble clearing your ears at times? You can have small issues with your ears, and you will never get trim with any type of rig.

ANd as far as carrying tanks, that is why God made wheels. Get at least a pair, like a hand truck or cart.

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Always have said "cave man make wheel, good, cave diver ignore wheel, no good."
Honestly I don't know why anyone would carry tanks if wheeling them is possible.

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Originally Posted by FW

You never did say if you were using aluminum, or steel tanks. With a razor harness, that would make a great deal of difference.

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"One steel, one aluminum"

:rollguy

I started out with a Razor, but switched to the Stealth 2 when it came out. I never used the single bungie on the Razor though, but set up a loop on each side. I don't think you're going to like the weight of the Jet fins since you're not top-heavy in SM like you would in a set of doubles.(I love my Slipstreams when diving wet.) SM feels much more stable to me in the water, since the weight of the tanks is lying right along my center of gravity, and I can easily roll up on my side and hang there to swim through a tall, narrow opening.

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Originally Posted by cmint

"One steel, one aluminum"

:rollguy

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Good one :-)

I just did my SM course a week ago. I had about 50+ cave dives (Intro/Apprentice level) in backmount, and switching over to SM, I was ALL out of wack. However, my instructor quickly fixed the issues, added some trim weights, adjusted tank bands and BAM! Near perfect trim. I think the instructor has a lot to do with it. He also did pictures and video for every dive to allow us to see how we looked. But I was very surprised with how quickly I trimmed out. I then did another 7 cave dives in SM config and got positive feedback about trim, buoyancy, etc. from my buddies.

I definitely think video would help you out. Good luck!!

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Originally Posted by Sh0use

I definitely think video would help you out. Good luck!!

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Yep, no doubt.

Thanks, hopefully things will improve once I post some video and get some feedback.

Off topic posts moved to the Fill station.

Great White, steel or Al will make a huge difference depending on what pressures.
While diving a minimalist rig such as my razor clone with AL 80's I have to watch my pressures close or add weight to each tank.
They get very tail floaty around 2600-2700 psi.
I simply add 3 lbs to each tank band to regain more control.

This being said I have not dove my clone deep beyond 50'.
I did notice that if you were going to do so a wing will be a must.
Especially wet you will struggle with buoyancy my experience.
I dive fresh water so if you are in salt then you will need to adjust.

Another issue I wondering is when are you making your reg switches?
Al tanks I switch every 200 psi, Steel 3-400 psi depends on your practice but it could make you list if you are breathing tanks unbalanced.
I realize that is a simple issue but with SM especially when diving minimalist balance is very important.
Bungee lengths, attachment points, it all adds up.

We had a student one time who was 6'1 220 lbs and not a pinch of fat!
This fellow was a rock of muscle and needed almost no weight to dive!
For his size and weight he swam like a seal, you could not keep up with him!
Your physical build can influence your buoyancy as well just be patient and keep working at it.
It will come just don't get frustrated and be very careful to keep your dives safe!
Do not put yourself in a bad spot with more than a few changes at a time!
Take your time.

JCG

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Originally Posted by JCGoodwin

It will come just don't get frustrated and be very careful to keep your dives safe!
Do not put yourself in a bad spot with more than a few changes at a time!
Take your time.

JCG

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One of my month old Hog regs needs fixing also, so everything is hitting me at once.
Yeah I called a dive the other day when we were doing eyes shut air sharing on the line.
My buoyancy was up the s$%t and I felt like I was wasting my time (as if it had been real, I could easily get entangled and kill someone).

Thanks for the support.

Talking to the Razor sidemount instructors ATM so they might be able to help me for a day or so.

I spent a day with a razor sidemount instructor and its almost sorted out.
I did have a little roll to the right but when I arrived home weighed the weights and one of the 4 pounders was almost half a pound heavier than the other one.
So that might have been the reason for that.
My feet seemed a little heavy so I put 2 x 2 pounds across the back and 2 x 2 pounds up the spine.
Hopefully it will be very close now.

John (the main Hog guy) just happened to be in Playa on holiday, so I took him the reg and he took it back with him to the USA and will send it to me.
He loaned me another in the meantime also.

I've never dove SM and I'm not an instructor with hundreds of data points but he's my perspective....


I dove BM for years. I developed really good buoyancy and trim but not stabile platform. I had just a bit of instability which caused tiny little fin skulls that I called "happy feet". This resulted in slow forward motion that I likened to "creeper gear" on a tractor. I'd try to hover and do skills in front of someone and I'd have to do back kicks to reposition myself. Very frustrating. I was given advice to go see a joga instructor to get feedback on my body English and imbalances. At the time that seemed like completely useless advice but looking back I can see that might have helped.


I remember the day I accidentally achieved perfection. I was wearing a different pair of (lighter) fins and while I was diving I noticed I wasn't skulling while hanging. On the next dive I put on my original (heavier) and I still wasn't skulling. I switched from swim trunks to wetsuit to drysuit, AL, steel, singles, doubles, slung 40 and so on.... no skulling. It seems I broke over some threshold and finally learned how to ride a bike after years and years of thinking I already knew how.


I suspect that if I went and gave SM a try and had a good instructor or mentor assist me in dialing everything in correctly that I'd very soon have perfect trim in that to.


So with all that said.... my hunch is that both SM and BM are probably similar in getting to good trim but to go from good trim to great trim the answer lies within yourself and not your gear.

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Originally Posted by chrpai

to go from good trim to great trim the answer lies within yourself and not your gear.

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I had perfect (or almost) buoyancy and trim in the pool without a wetsuit, but poor b and t the moment I put a wetsuit on.
So obviously gear was playing a big part.

Having the right gear is a step in the right direction, as is having it fitted correctly IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Great White7

I had perfect (or almost) buoyancy and trim in the pool

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Almost isn't perfect. That's the subtlety I'm trying to describe. Configuring the equipment optimally for each configuration will get you back to that almost perfect / good trim but it comes within to go from there to perfect.

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Originally Posted by chrpai

Almost isn't perfect. That's the subtlety I'm trying to describe. Configuring the equipment optimally for each configuration will get you back to that almost perfect / good trim but it comes within to go from there to perfect.

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Yeah but it was about 95% (slight forward creep, no roll, no up/down pull).
And in the cenote with a wetsuit on it was about 20% and bad enough that I could not concentrate on anything and just wanted to give up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfTj...ature=youtu.be

Its not very long but something might stand out (apart from my efforts to frog kick).

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Originally Posted by Great White7

Its not very long but something might stand out (apart from my efforts to frog kick).

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Your frog kick really stands out. I'm not sure the internet is the best place to be. Some hands on instructor time is what's needed, imo.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Your frog kick really stands out. I'm not sure the internet is the best place to be. Some hands on instructor time is what's needed, imo.

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Just getting as much info as possible.

I have had around 500 dives and never learned, or taught, how to frogkick, so its like starting over.

And the rolling issues did not help much as I would kick a little, go to glide, and then roll to one side, and have to kick my old way to stay level.

I'm not sure why you are dropping your knees 45 degrees everytime you kick. It really throws off your trim. I'd keep the knees up. Minor trim issues are easily masked while on the move. Try to hover motionless without any skulling at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrpai

I'm not sure why you are dropping your knees 45 degrees everytime you kick. It really throws off your trim. I'd keep the knees up. Minor trim issues are easily masked while on the move. Try to hover motionless without any skulling at all.

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Something to keep in mind.

Could be due to lower back problems in the past.

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Originally Posted by Great White7

Something to keep in mind.

Could be due to lower back problems in the past.

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I understand that one. 12 years ago my first born was due and it was a blizzard. I shoveled all day and hurt it bad. Then years of shoulder rides, horsy rides, getting old and fat and lugging twinsets around. Not so good now and then when it flares up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrpai

I understand that one. 12 years ago my first born was due and it was a blizzard. I shoveled all day and hurt it bad. Then years of shoulder rides, horsy rides, getting old and fat and lugging twinsets around. Not so good now and then when it flares up.

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I think its something like 80% of people have back problems and "they" still really have no idea about how to fix it.

Just something I have to deal with I guess.

can't resist - proper position in the water does not depend on low back condition. Mine has been a mess most of my life, but if anything feels tired or strained after the dive, it means something is way off in your technique or your gear configuration. It should be effortless. Most often, if i felt strained when I was learning sidemount or learning new tanks, it was my lower erectors. If they were tired, it meant I was working too hard to keep my head up, so I learned to move my cam bands up to move the ballast back (a little more complicated for ALU tanks, as you'd have to move weight on the rig). Knees dropping can be from a lot of things, and many of us found that different solutions worked for some and other solutions worked for others. Whatever the solution your instructor finds will likely also come with you developing an idea in your head about the straight line between your belly and your knees.

Regarding the frog kick. I know others suggest in other posts that you can only practice in the water, with full gear. However, I really think some people can benefit from training themselves to position their feet to find the resistance in the water. That is, to NOT waste energy with funny kicks with the fin folded over or slicing sideways in the water, like in your video (you aren't alone in making these mistakes). You can work on this sensitivity by frog kicking swimming laps in a pool without all your gear. This won't help your trim or your heavy knees, but your feet will learn what they're supposed to be doing. I did this a lot between my first efforts to frog kick (went nowhere) and my first sidemount class (went great!). This might be an easy way for you to improve.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

This might be an easy way for you to improve.

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I would be doing that already but not many public pools in Playa Del Carmen.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

and many of us found that different solutions worked for some and other solutions worked for others.

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Yeah still a bit of trial and error to go but I feel like I am 95% of the way there.
Compared to the 20% I felt last week when I basically wasted 2 days and learnt nothing at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

can't resist - proper position in the water does not depend on low back condition. Mine has been a mess most of my life, but if anything feels tired or strained after the dive, it means something is way off in your technique or your gear configuration. It should be effortless. Most often, if i felt strained when I was learning sidemount or learning new tanks, it was my lower erectors. If they were tired, it meant I was working too hard to keep my head up, so I learned to move my cam bands up to move the ballast back (a little more complicated for ALU tanks, as you'd have to move weight on the rig). Knees dropping can be from a lot of things, and many of us found that different solutions worked for some and other solutions worked for others. Whatever the solution your instructor finds will likely also come with you developing an idea in your head about the straight line between your belly and your knees.

Regarding the frog kick. I know others suggest in other posts that you can only practice in the water, with full gear. However, I really think some people can benefit from training themselves to position their feet to find the resistance in the water. That is, to NOT waste energy with funny kicks with the fin folded over or slicing sideways in the water, like in your video (you aren't alone in making these mistakes). You can work on this sensitivity by frog kicking swimming laps in a pool without all your gear. This won't help your trim or your heavy knees, but your feet will learn what they're supposed to be doing. I did this a lot between my first efforts to frog kick (went nowhere) and my first sidemount class (went great!). This might be an easy way for you to improve.

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I fear you have no idea....

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I fear you have no idea....

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ya know, ya try to be helpful... but you found me out, I just read that all off the back of my PADI scuba experience pamphlet, well it was good while it lasted.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

ya know, ya try to be helpful... you found me out, I just read that all off the back of my PADI scuba experience pamphlet, well it was good while it lasted.

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strange.

I replied with quote and it was not the same as what appeared in your post. I didnt add anything it was just expanded.

Very telling.

I feel as though I now know so much more than before.

:roll:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

ya know, ya try to be helpful.

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People says its better to say nothing than to look a fool.
Me, I would rather people thought I was a fool so long as I was learning something.
And its never a bad thing to help people, just make sure you are helping, and not trying to help (as Yoda said, there is no try).

:)

SM is like the ballet of diving in my opinion.
My approach is no less intense as my BM diving.
Striving to perfect trim, and master skills, keep your awareness sharp.
The main difference for me is the optimum; weighting,trim,hose routing, clean profile, the correct tanks that fit for the person involved.

What I have learned is that many tanks work for a given individual but some work very very well.
SM is a method that takes practice to master.
Its been a awesome training time and great dives with friends.
All of our endeavors in diving lead to good friends, great dives, many awesome memories.

JCG

Did you get everything sorted out trim wise?

In the video your right tank is obviously riding lower than the left one. Obvious, but how evenly are you breathing them down?

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Originally Posted by JCGoodwin

What I have learned is that many tanks work for a given individual but some work very very well.
SM is a method that takes practice to master.
JCG

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Yes, so much to learn.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

Did you get everything sorted out trim wise?

In the video your right tank is obviously riding lower than the left one. Obvious, but how evenly are you breathing them down?

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Have not been back in the water yet.
Instructor is away until tomorrow and then I am away for a week.

I prob put the right tank lower to try to stop the slight roll.
Its was almost perfect but the difference in weights may have been the problem.

Any update on your sidemount struggles? Enjoyed reading the issues but eager about the resolutions. Hope all is well with the diving!

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Originally Posted by FreeDiver

Any update on your sidemount struggles? Enjoyed reading the issues but eager about the resolutions. Hope all is well with the diving!

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Great White hasn't logged in since June. Try sending a PM, that should send him an email, assuming he didn't opt out of that feature.

Gotcha, thanks. This is the reason I don't bump too many old threads as I'm viewing them. Hopefully he didn't give up.

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Originally Posted by FreeDiver

Gotcha, thanks. This is the reason I don't bump too many old threads as I'm viewing them. Hopefully he didn't give up.

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I think it is mostly because he is from Australia.

Wasn't he supposed to do classes in Mexico and guide people in the caverns/caves? It would be interesting to hear how that project progressed.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Wasn't he supposed to do classes in Mexico and guide people in the caverns/caves? It would be interesting to hear how that project progressed.

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Hopefully wisely...