what do the standards say?

there's a thread on sb about standards violations being investigated that has me thinking and a bit indignant. so here's the set-up. i'd like your thoughts whether or not you're an instructor.

i did an/dp as an intro diver, so before app/full. i didn't want to be doing trust-me deco in full class. my instructor for all these classes was mike o'leary. (be respectful of him in responses, i've gotten into bar fights to defend his honor.)

one dive was to be to gold line in lower orange. we ended up turning on time just out of the corkscrew. one was to 150 towards hendley's, so not far past the bedding plane.

of course, these were not nacd classes as nacd doesn't offer an/dp.

so, is doing an/dp before full in caves a cave agency standards violation? how many of us did the classes in this order? how would cave agencies prefer this to be done? i wanted to do it in caves, since that's where i dive.

I would guess you'd need to specify the agency(-ies) of cave and ANDP certification.

an/dp was tdi.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

there's a thread on sb about standards violations being investigated that has me thinking and a bit indignant. so here's the set-up. i'd like your thoughts whether or not you're an instructor.

i did an/dp as an intro diver, so before app/full. i didn't want to be doing trust-me deco in full class. my instructor for all these classes was mike o'leary. (be respectful of him in responses, i've gotten into bar fights to defend his honor.)

one dive was to be to gold line in lower orange. we ended up turning on time just out of the corkscrew. one was to 150 towards hendley's, so not far past the bedding plane.

of course, these were not nacd classes as nacd doesn't offer an/dp.

so, is doing an/dp before full in caves a cave agency standards violation? how many of us did the classes in this order? how would cave agencies prefer this to be done? i wanted to do it in caves, since that's where i dive.

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I did AN/DP before starting the whole cave series. We went to (believe it or not) "40 fathom Grotto" to do AN/DP (i.e. before they got all "pricey," etc.). We got down to 141 ffw, but did not go into any of the pure overhead parts. That was purely to do all the drills and to test my ability to keep "control" at those depths, and at the appropriate stops. Also, of course, to see how I handled being at those depths, in re: getting Narced.

The course was a TDI course. I'm not sure if they have a standard as to where it can be taught. Since it also isn't a "cave" course (i.e. NACD/CDS), I don't believe their standards were violated either. I think it more up to the instructor and student. I'd hope that the instructor would discuss this with the student beforehand (as mine did with me) and they agree on the plan. It would seem difficult to teach AN/DP in "cave country" (as opposed to being on the gulf shore or east coast) without using some of those caves, unless there's a deep sink with a clear path to the surface (maybe Buford???)... I know that OW instructors use "Blue Grotto" and "Devil's Den" for PADI classes (especially AOW and Deep Diving). My OW instructor used BG for AOW, and basic Nitrox.

I no longer teach however I highly doubt the standards have changed in this regard. Since Mike is an over head instructor (cave) he can teach AN & DP in an over head. You were certified as Intro Cave so all is good, no violations. :D

I haven't been into lower OG, so I can't really comment on the appropriateness of that location. Regardless of whether or not it is a standards violation I would ask the question, was it a good idea to teach the class there?

as one of the initial skeptics, I think LoG was probably "fuzzy" in terms of being clear or not, P3 is frowned upon for training, though I know Mike knows that cave as well as anyone and was not working with a whole lot to get deep so I'd say it's on the clear side of fuzzy. I don't know if any standards would have been violated, but I think in todays world this would likely be at least frowned upon. That said, this was quite a while ago as Mike hasn't been teaching in at least 5 years, and times have changed, so what may have been a non-issue then is an issue today. While the standards haven't changed a whole lot else has so how they are enforced is different. I don't see him violating any NACD standards, whether they were with TDI I don't know because I think you would still have to be limited to their full cave depth limits for "one step above".

The fuzzy part for me is TDI specs 130ft maximum depth for full cave, but 150ft max depth for DP. That was the standards issue I had in question as the jump to Hendleys would have been approved by being with an instructor for "one step" above where you currently were

of course *i* think it was appropriate. if this violates standards, then i think standards need to be changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

as Mike hasn't been teaching in at least 5 years, and times have changed

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I have to admit that I have a hard time with a lot of your posts.
This one is no different, let me just pick out what is most obvious.
It is not true, Mike O'Leary has not been out of teaching for the past 5 years.
And "times" have not really changed either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

there's a thread on sb about standards violations being investigated that has me thinking and a bit indignant. so here's the set-up. i'd like your thoughts whether or not you're an instructor.

i did an/dp as an intro diver, so before app/full. i didn't want to be doing trust-me deco in full class. my instructor for all these classes was mike o'leary. (be respectful of him in responses, i've gotten into bar fights to defend his honor.)

one dive was to be to gold line in lower orange. we ended up turning on time just out of the corkscrew. one was to 150 towards hendley's, so not far past the bedding plane.

of course, these were not nacd classes as nacd doesn't offer an/dp.

so, is doing an/dp before full in caves a cave agency standards violation? how many of us did the classes in this order? how would cave agencies prefer this to be done? i wanted to do it in caves, since that's where i dive.

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Are you saying that you were 150ft deep in a cave without trimix as an intro diver? If so, I'd want to believe this breaks some sort of training standard but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't given how vague most agency standards are written.

If you were on Trimix, I think it's a bit vague, as many people combine courses. I did ADV Nx, Deco, and Trimix as one course, but it was after full cave.

I don't really worry too much about "trust me deco" since deco after full cave without trimix typically is less than 20-30min (so backgas breaks can arguably be ignored, and back gas basically always has enough left over to cover a loss of an o2 bottle). The decompression theory portion of a deco class to me is like taking a political science class in college. Lots of research and opinions out there, the instructor's job is to introduce you to a variety of ideas and your job is to figure out who you vote for. With Rubicon and books such as Deco for Divers, I would hope that anyone who's doing extended decompression can honestly say they learned more about deco AFTER the class than during it, and the class just helped them get a stable ground to start their research while working up to bigger dives.

Does TDI not have depth limitatations at Intro to Cave? Does TDI not have limitations on going through a restriction at Intro to cave. I don't know. I've never read the standards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobby

I no longer teach however I highly doubt the standards have changed in this regard. Since Mike is an over head instructor (cave) he can teach AN & DP in an over head. You were certified as Intro Cave so all is good, no violations. :D

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I think the thought maybe that where there may have been no standard violation since it was not a cave class, but an ethical issue when you have an intro diver well below 100', passing restrictions (where you can't swim side by side), and using a stages. This same class could have been taught in open water and done the same skills without violating the restrictions of the overhead,but taking an intro level student into this level of overhead is problematic. Remember January 5th, 2005? Cavern diver taken into Hendleys for a deep class, got onto the wrong line coming out, and died as a result.

here are the TDI standards for Adv Nitrox: https://www.tdisdi.com/wp-content/up...trox_Diver.pdf

it has guidelines for OW only.

From reading the NACD training violation threads, it seems in that case the concern is about the limits on the cave agency at the level of Intro to Cave. If I am correct in my reading of the general consensus there, your situation is no different. But, as others have said, there appears to be a gray area owing to the poorly defined limitations on the discretion of the instructor. Either an Intro cave diver CAN go to 150' with a ANDP teacher, or they cannot. The cave card says no, the instructor says yes, so.... :smt102 That said, after watching the video of the restriction and reading about the depth, I am content in my decision not to undergo ANDP training before full cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

...snip

That said, after watching the video of the restriction and reading about the depth, I am content in my decision not to undergo ANDP training before full cave.

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Uh... Dude, you do realize that AN/DP can be taught in OW and not in an overhead? I think it's a great class to take before full cave and will help start your understanding of deco much better than a typical full cave course will.


Sent via

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Uh... Dude, you do realize that AN/DP can be taught in OW and not in an overhead? I think it's a great class to take before full cave and will help start your understanding of deco much better than a typical full cave course will.

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I am aware. Anyway, I am full cave now, let's not let this thread turn into another debate about timing those classes, that's pretty well argued by both sides elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I am aware. Anyway, I am full cave now, let's not let this thread turn into another debate about timing those classes, that's pretty well argued by both sides elsewhere.

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The NACD requires the student to have deco training before doing Apprentice or Full Cave, if decompression is either planned or possible to even occur in class.
Your cave class with doing deco on backgas would have been a standards violation with the NACD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

The NACD requires the student to have deco training before doing Apprentice or Full Cave, if decompression is either planned or possible to even occur in class.
Your cave class with doing deco on backgas would have been a standards violation with the NACD.

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And IF I were 12 when I took my cave training it would also be a violation of standards. IF I were training under that agency my course would obviously have been different. Lots of "IF"s, but as it happens, deco training was not required with the agencies by which I am certified.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

of course *i* think it was appropriate. if this violates standards, then i think standards need to be changed.

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Was LOG simply a location with the depth the instructor wanted for AN/DP and absolutely otherwise within the limits of your certification level? If yes, then no foul. If no...was he teaching AN/DP and a cave class that includes the extra skill/experience to handle the additional factors that made the dive beyond your level of certification in the cave environment? If yes...most likely not a foul. If no, most likely a foul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cerich

Was LOG simply a location with the depth the instructor wanted for AN/DP and absolutely otherwise within the limits of your certification level? If yes, then no foul. If no...was he teaching AN/DP and a cave class that includes the extra skill/experience to handle the additional factors that made the dive beyond your level of certification in the cave environment? If yes...most likely not a foul. If no, most likely a foul.

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So let me ask you this. Where is the difference between full cave and intro to cave in the LOG scenario, assuming that sixths are adhered to?
My iANTD intro to cave card has a 130' limit, as has my IANTD technical cave card.
Where is the difference?
In case someone mentions the corkscrew restriction. This is a minor restriction and allowed both in Intro and in Apprentice/Full/Technical Cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

So let me ask you this. Where is the difference between full cave and intro to cave in the LOG scenario, assuming that sixths are adhered to?
My iANTD intro to cave card has a 130' limit, as has my IANTD technical cave card.
Where is the difference?
In case someone mentions the corkscrew restriction. This is a minor restriction and allowed both in Intro and in Apprentice/Full/Technical Cave.

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Does anyone have a TDI intro card handy? This old post says there are NO RESTRICTIONS allowed for intro - no distinction between major or minor. Then, that makes the class at LOG, with a minor restriction, sound like either beyond training limits or inclusive of cave training. As Cerich says, how the class was defined might then be the deciding factor.

Link: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...itations...?s=

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Does anyone have a TDI intro card handy? This old post says there are NO RESTRICTIONS allowed for intro - no distinction between major or minor.

Link: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...itations...?s=

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That is a restriction for TDI CAVERN, not for INTRO. Never has been. I checked the standards of 1994, 2006 and 2015.
The limit is 130', sixths, no decompression and single guideline.

That would explain the use of 1/3rds at that level (single tank) Was thinking TDI must be more like NAUI than I thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Does TDI not have depth limitatations at Intro to Cave? Does TDI not have limitations on going through a restriction at Intro to cave. I don't know. I've never read the standards.

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i don't know either. my cave cards are nacd, not tdi. my an/dp and mix are tdi.

ok, so it seems there's no real consensus. either this needs to be spelled out, or not witch-hunted.

I see the line at cave trained level with some leeway to the apprentice level, but those sites and dives at the intro level? Not a chance in my opinion. I also think the an/dp course structure is dumb even when done correctly. What's with the deep air? We know better these days but the training has not caught up. Where's the early trimix training? Many of the course flows are just silly. There are other options out there but you have to look hard to find them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

ok, so it seems there's no real consensus. either this needs to be spelled out, or not witch-hunted.

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Agreed. How is this absent from their website?

But, is your question whether the tdi class was violating standards? I got the impression from the NACD training violation thread that the concern was that the NACD intro cave cert was insufficient for the location and depth, and thus the NACD instructor was suspended, even though he was teaching a non-NACD (tdi?) class. I'm completely baffled as to how it's advanced to this point without clear standards that speak directly to this situation, but maybe there's more to it than we know...anyway,

Was your TDI instructor (also) an NACD instructor?

TDI Cavern
https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certified/Cavern-Diver/

TDI Intro
https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certi...to-cave-diver/

TDI Cave
https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certi...ll-cave-diver/

TDI Deco Procedures
https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certi...cedures-Diver/

TDI Advanced Nitrox
https://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/get-certi...-Nitrox-Diver/


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

I really try to stay abreast of the comings and going in the cave community but I am Sooooo.. Glad I got full cave in the 90s and dove like a feand for several years. Dove Henleys on air when air was cool. did air deco on Bauechet computers forever....dove Voodoo gas when everyone thought we were going to fissssssss like Alka seltzer. Sometimes I think we take ourselves too seriously. I'm not saying deco and missed gas and standards should not be followed but learning each dive is important. Trust your training, train some more. We had an incident at the gun range today because one of our regulars got used to our routine and walked down range during cease fire, hot range, instead of cold range. We need to break routine keep things fresh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I got the impression from the NACD training violation thread that the concern was that the NACD intro cave cert was insufficient for the location and depth, and thus the NACD instructor was suspended, even though he was teaching a non-NACD (tdi?) class. I'm completely baffled as to how it's advanced to this point without clear standards that speak directly to this situation, but maybe there's more to it than we know...anyway,

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To make it very clear in terms of what happened with the instructor who was suspended.

His students were not NACD certified, they were certified with another agency.
The class was an AN/DP recreational trimix class with another agency using a normoxic trimix, as Ben suggested.
Training was done in LOG, not in Hendley's castle, to about 150', within navigation limits (main line only, no navigational decisions) and within sixths.

As a result, this event had zero to do with the NACD and was in compliance with standards of the agency the class was performed under.
Nevertheless the instructor got suspended by the NACD BoD.

So I truly hope for Mike O'Leary that Rick Murcar and the rest of the BoD no longer read this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

To make it very clear in terms of what happened with the instructor who was suspended.

His students were not NACD certified, they were certified with another agency.
The class was an AN/DP recreational trimix class with another agency using a normoxic trimix, as Ben suggested.
Training was done in LOG, not in Hendley's castle, to about 150', within navigation limits (main line only, no navigational decisions) and within sixths.

As a result, this event had zero to do with the NACD and was in compliance with standards of the agency the class was performed under.
Nevertheless the instructor got suspended by the NACD BoD.

So I truly hope for Mike O'Leary that Rick Murcar and the rest of the BoD no longer read this thread.

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'

What was the cave certification level of the student?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

What was the cave certification level of the student?

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Frankly I don't know but it was either Intro to Cave and/or an Apprentice to Cave.
All limits of the certification were adhered to, except for the depth (exceeded by 20') which is a given since this was a (recreational) Trimix class.
And again, it would technically have been no different with a full cave student.

I thought he was intro. But, maybe we should not let this thread just become a continuation of the other (LONG) thread? He asked what the standards say and I think he was exactly right that they lack the specificity needed to resolve this question. Ultimately, that probably means it's up to the BoD to decide whether it violates the "spirit of the law"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Ultimately, that probably means it's up to the BoD to decide whether it violates the "spirit of the law"

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How can the NACD "spirit of the law" apply to a class taught for another agency with students certified from another agency?

http://i.imgur.com/gxrfWrE.gif

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How can the NACD "spirit of the law" apply to a class taught for another agency with students certified from another agency?

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Easy, you are licensed to tach under their name, and you take a student (any student) beyond where they think is safe...they decide you aren't keeping with the spirit of the law, that is, making decisions that are sufficiently conservative given the conditions and capabilities of the student. They can't affect your other licenses, but I think that if the decision is based on the spirit of the law, or the overall goal to only have your brand on teachers that conform to your idea of safe practices, you, the BoD can decide that the class violated your trust in the instructor, and remove them from your agency. I'm trying to be abstract, because I don't know, or care to know all the nitty gritty details, I'm speaking generally about how the spirit of the law might play into the decision regardless of ambiguity in the written standards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Easy, you are licensed to tach under their name, and you take a student (any student) beyond where they think is safe...they decide you aren't keeping with the spirit of the law, that is, making decisions that are sufficiently conservative given the conditions and capabilities of the student. They can't affect your other licenses, but I think that if the decision is based on the spirit of the law, or the overall goal to only have your brand on teachers that conform to your idea of safe practices, you, the BoD can decide that the class violated your trust in the instructor, and remove them from your agency. I'm trying to be abstract, because I don't know, or care to know all the nitty gritty details, I'm speaking generally about how the spirit of the law might play into the decision regardless of ambiguity in the written standards.

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Sure, all the while applying their "spirit of the law" of the day to only one specific instructor, while others may do as they please? Come on....

Making the standards of any certifing agency easily availible and clearly understood to any diver is of great benefit in discussions/situations like this - most have the major ones right there on the card - I also think excercising good judgement (that should have been or is being demonstrated and evaluated) is what should "fill in" any areas of confusion or misunderstanding. What constitutes good judgement can be somewhat subjective, but thats where experience and mentor/role model input can be used to positive effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Easy, you are licensed to teach under their name

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There are no "licenses" in scuba diving, other than a captain's license.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Sure, all the while applying their "spirit of the law" of the day to only one specific instructor, while others may do as they please? Come on....

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That is not what I'm talking about at all. And if you read the end of my post you can see I was only discussing the philosophy of applying this reasoning to the general situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caveflyer

Making the standards of any certifing agency easily availible and clearly understood to any diver is of great benefit in discussions/situations like this - most have the major ones right there on the card - I also think excercising good judgement (that should have been or is being demonstrated and evaluated) is what should "fill in" any areas of confusion or misunderstanding. What constitutes good judgement can be somewhat subjective, but thats where experience and mentor/role model input can be used to positive effect.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

There are no "licenses" in scuba diving, other than a captain's license.

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Completely silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

And if you read the end of my post you can see I was only discussing the philosophy of applying this reasoning to the general situation.

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I understand what you are trying to say. The point is, any attempt to understand the reasons behind and the basis for the suspension is completely useless.
The decision was made because the BoD wanted to. End of story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I understand what you are trying to say. The point is, any attempt to understand the reasons behind and the basis for the suspension is completely useless.
The decision was made because the BoD wanted to. End of story.

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alright. clearly this thread has degraded to being another soap box.

Okay, from a cave/trimix instructor point of view, taking an Intro student into LOG (whatever agency cert and whatever mix they're diving) is nothing short of moronic. Just my opinion as always... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich

Okay, from a cave/trimix instructor point of view, taking an Intro student into LOG (whatever agency cert and whatever mix they're diving) is nothing short of moronic. Just my opinion as always... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

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I'm glad someone finally said it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Completely silly.

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I wasn't being silly. A license means there is a legal/illegal component. Scuba deals with certifications, which means nothing to anybody but the scuba industry itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I wasn't being silly. A license means there is a legal/illegal component. Scuba deals with certifications, which means nothing to anybody but the scuba industry itself.

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What Aotus meant was that you disagreed with him, and that was completely silly.
He is not always right, nor always on topic, but he is never in doubt.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I wasn't being silly. A license means there is a legal/illegal component. Scuba deals with certifications, which means nothing to anybody but the scuba industry itself.

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you are being a little silly, pointing out a semantic issue (wrongly, see below) when you knew full well what I meant.

Quote:

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license |ˈlīsəns|
noun(Brit. licence)
a permit from an authority to own or use something, do a particular thing, or carry on a trade (especially in alcoholic beverages): a gun license | ( as modifier ) : vehicle license fees.
• formal or official permission to do something: logging is permitted under license from the Forest Service.
• a writer's or artist's freedom to deviate from fact or from conventions such as grammar, meter, or perspective, for effect: artistic license.
• freedom to behave as one wishes, especially in a way that results in excessive or unacceptable behavior: the government was criticized for giving the army too much license.

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Demonstrated clearly here, there is some freedom afforded in the use of the term, note in particular the loose term "an authority"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tursiops

What Aotus meant was that you disagreed with him, and that was completely silly.
He is not always right, nor always on topic, but he is never in doubt.:)

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why make a statement if you don't believe it to be correct? I make no claim that I will not be convinced otherwise after the fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

why make a statement if you don't believe it to be correct? I make no claim that I will not be convinced otherwise after the fact.

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Are you really convinced your statements are correct? Or are they just the first thing that occurs to you?
You like to get ready, then fire, then aim.
Others prefer ready, aim, fire.
Checking your facts before posting, not letting others fact-check you and then changing your view, might be good.
In the world of Emotional Intelligence there is something called "impulse control." Too little of it is a problem.
Hey, you asked.

i'm not interested in another argument with you tursiops. i sent you a PM to resolve the issue we had some tome ago, and you showed no interest in making amends. good day.

Now I'm confused, which is easy done. Since I will be in the Keys diving Memorial Day week I was asked if I would help with an advance OW class because of the student instructor ratio. My first question was which training agency which was NAUI. Since. I am a NAUI instructor and knowing the asking instructor I agreed as long as I am on all the release forms. Here is what is screwy with what has been posted previouly. I am also a IANTD instructor and there standards for AOW has a depth limit of 100 fsw where NAUI AOW has 130 fsw. I know they are planing on diving the Spegal and will break 100 fsw. Hope Tom doesn't get mad at me since I broke his standards even thou it wasn't a IANTD class.[emoji51]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Demonstrated clearly here, there is some freedom afforded in the use of the term, note in particular the loose term "an authority"

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A dive certification is not a "permit from an authority" or a "official permission". I could start my own agency tomorrow, I call it "Bents Deep Diver Gang". I get myself a little C-Card printer and start to sell training... some agencies actually started out like this. Most of the people that started this way had more street cred than I though.
To be an authority you have to have power over something more than a printer. The NACD is basically a private club.
Slüdge said pretty much what is says in the quote you posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich

Okay, from a cave/trimix instructor point of view, taking an Intro student into LOG (whatever agency cert and whatever mix they're diving) is nothing short of moronic. Just my opinion as always... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

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I would also add Hendleys to that statement

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich

Okay, from a cave/trimix instructor point of view, taking an Intro student into LOG (whatever agency cert and whatever mix they're diving) is nothing short of moronic. Just my opinion as always... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

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Rich
I'm with you on taking an Intro diver to Lower Orange Grove, Hendlys or the Nest. Doesn't make sense.

NAUI requires AN/Deco as pre-requisites for Cave 2 and as far as I can tell by reading the TDI Standards you can combine AN/Deco with Full Cave but all required dives from from standards have to be met.

There are some other Certs that can be combined with AN/Deco.


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

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Originally Posted by tflaris

Rich
I'm with you on taking an Intro diver to Lower Orange Grove, Hendlys or the Nest. Doesn't make sense.

NAUI requires AN/Deco as pre-requisites for Cave 2 and as far as I can tell by reading the TDI Standards you can combine AN/Deco with Full Cave but all required dives from from standards have to be met.

There are some other Certs that can be combined with AN/Deco.


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

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Tony,

I talked with TDI last week about this very issue. I have a student that is interested in progressing to full cave, and needed to complete AN/DP, and although DP is clearly stated as being allowed to be incorporated in full cave, there was no mention of AN, so I asked if they could be combined. Here is what they sent me:

Quote:

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Yes, you can also incorporate AN into a full cave program, I would suggest
conducting 4 dives specifically focusing on AN/DP components in addition to
the full cave course (crediting 2 dives from full cave to the AN/DP
portion). This is, of course, a minimum and if you feel additional dives
are needed, that is your discretion.

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At the end of the day, the student and I opted to just focus on AN/DP at this time and we conducted all of the dives in what is essentially open-water (OG basin for skills development and then Hudson Grotto for the 130' dives). The student still owes me a skill before he's finished, which will be conducted in OW at some future point.

There are options...

So exactly what is learned in an "Advanced Nitrox" course?

When I took it my instructor took me on the Henleys jump but I had to stop and hold position at a certain depth. I dont recall what depth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

So exactly what is learned in an "Advanced Nitrox" course?

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What a stupid question! You learn to breathe advanced nitrox!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

So exactly what is learned in an "Advanced Nitrox" course?

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Likely best answered by somebody who knows details but I think that course teaches you how to breath mixes that have 41% oxygen or higher as nitrox is only up to 40%.
Or maybe that is the point where they finally release the top secret "T" formula so you can figure out your MOD for yourself instead of using a chart! Lol.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

So exactly what is learned in an "Advanced Nitrox" course?

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The stuff everyone should have learned in a regular nitrox course, but probably didn't.

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Advanced Nitrox deals with high O2 concentrations up to 100% and goes much deeper into the topics introduced in Nitrox class. Kind of like the difference between cavern and full cave.

I thought the Nitrox class was kinda BS, but slightly useful. I liked my AN class.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

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Yes, you can also incorporate AN into a full cave program, I would suggest
conducting 4 dives specifically focusing on AN/DP components in addition to
the full cave course (crediting 2 dives from full cave to the AN/DP
portion). This is, of course, a minimum and if you feel additional dives
are needed, that is your discretion.

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At the end of the day, the student and I opted to just focus on AN/DP at this time and we conducted all of the dives in what is essentially open-water (OG basin for skills development and then Hudson Grotto for the 130' dives). The student still owes me a skill before he's finished, which will be conducted in OW at some future point.

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Notice that the TDI reply includes both Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures, not AN by itself. The two classes are almost always taught together with the skills blended. The standards not only allow it, they come close to suggesting it. That is because the AN course by itself does not include the skill of switching to a deco bottle, but the DP class does. When you combine the two classes, you can blend the gas switching skills from DP into the AN dives.

My understanding (could be wrong) for the separation of the two is to allow someone to get AN certification to use for recreational rebreather dives.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

Notice that the TDI reply includes both Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures, not AN by itself. The two classes are almost always taught together with the skills blended. The standards not only allow it, they come close to suggesting it. That is because the AN course by itself does not include the skill of switching to a deco bottle, but the DP class does. When you combine the two classes, you can blend the gas switching skills from DP into the AN dives.

My understanding (could be wrong) for the separation of the two is to allow someone to get AN certification to use for recreational rebreather dives.

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Yes, NAUI recently combined the two. I also normally also teach Helitrox with it as well.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

i did an/dp as an intro diver, so before app/full.

one dive was to be to gold line in lower orange. we ended up turning on time just out of the corkscrew. one was to 150 towards hendley's, so not far past the bedding plane.

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Not an instructor but getting there for OW.


AN/DP before Full Cave is not a standards violation because neither is a pre-requisite for the other.


There are actually a couple of different questions that arise from the potential scenarios presented:


1. AN/DP in conjunction with Full Cave (TDI) ... exceeding a depth of 130 ft would be a standards violation by the instructor since that's a condition of the Full Cave standards. As has been stated above, AN/DP can be taught in conjunction with Full Cave and the standards of all courses must be met.


2. AN/DP in overhead while Intro Cave certified ... exceeding a depth of 130 ft would be contrary to the existing certification and not the AN/DP course standards. Now where I am not entirely clear is whether an instructor taking a willing student beyond the limits of an existing certification in a course that is not specifically being related to the existing certification is a violation of instructor standards. I suspect it would be a violation of TDI professional conduct standards (it would be for SSI professional conduct standards of which I am more familiar.)


Having said that, I am not a standards Nazi for courses I take as a student. So, if I was the student above and the instructor was heading down the above path, I would do my own risk assessment and make the call whether I felt comfortable proceeding. (Before AN/DP, I was not confident of my susceptibility to narcosis at 150 ft so I would likely have rejected that dive plan ... even today, I would likely reject it since I have been to that depth for only several dives and would want more experience prior to putting myself in a hard overhead at that depth on air.)


My two kopeks.

Air is for tires.

So does this all boil down to a most restrictive / least restrictive argument? Do the standards for teaching vary from the standards for diving?

In the Midwest it isn't unusual for divers to work on their AN/DP or even Trimix certs prior to or simultaneous with their cavern/cave training. Roubidoux is 150' or so after the first dropoff, but I can get in that far on 6ths. Since I'm hauling in my own gas, I may make the first dive on a stage bottle...

What parts of which certifications are the 'limiting factor' and when do they override each other? Does the Trimix cert trump the cave standard depth restriction? Does it change if you're in training as opposed to a completed cert?

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Originally Posted by mstueven

So does this all boil down to a most restrictive / least restrictive argument? Do the standards for teaching vary from the standards for diving?

In the Midwest it isn't unusual for divers to work on their AN/DP or even Trimix certs prior to or simultaneous with their cavern/cave training. Roubidoux is 150' or so after the first dropoff, but I can get in that far on 6ths. Since I'm hauling in my own gas, I may make the first dive on a stage bottle...

What parts of which certifications are the 'limiting factor' and when do they override each other? Does the Trimix cert trump the cave standard depth restriction? Does it change if you're in training as opposed to a completed cert?

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As a diver I would say if you're having to reference the standards to figure it out, you're likely making the wrong decision. That goes both ways, too. If an intro diver has lots of experience in OW carrying a stage bottle and wants to use it to have MORE gas for the second dive, I don't see an issue so long as the spirit of the rule is not violated (limiting penetration to 1/6ths of full back gas), even though I'd assume a stage isn't allowed. If a full cave diver has to check to see how deep they can to on air according to another agency to justify exceeding the cave diving agency max END I'd say they're making the wrong decision.

If I were an instructor it would be more by the book as a single accident could wreck my financial future, but as a recreational diver common sense works darn well.

I first attempted to take TDI AN/DP after PSAI Apprentice, and before PSAI Full, with two different instructors for the cave courses and AN/DP. My AN/DP instructor was not willing to teach that course to a PSAI Apprentice Cave Diver in a cave. It was my understanding the reason was because it would have violated PSAI Apprentice standards regarding stages, both for extending penetration and multiple deco gasses. Said another way, the instructor explained I would have been diving beyond both my cave training certification level (Apprentice) AND my basic diving certification level (Nitrox), and the instructor was only willing to train above one certification level at a time. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding based upon our discussions when 40 Fathoms became unavailable to us.


Frankly, I'm not sure whether the instructor was applying a standards-based prohibition or a general mentality of-"until you're full cave certified, then the only training you should be doing in a cave is cave training." While that may not have been the instructor's meaning or intent, it makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Rhino

Frankly, I'm not sure whether the instructor was applying a standards-based prohibition or a general mentality of-"until you're full cave certified, then the only training you should be doing in a cave is cave training." While that may not have been the instructor's meaning or intent, it makes sense to me.

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+1

When I wanted to sit in on the survey clinic a while back, when I was at Intro, I was told more or less this same thing, that any added task loading is not ok in the cave until after full cave. Sounded reasonable to me. I was later given the option to attend the clinic as long as I stayed in the cavern. Something else came up and I missed out on it altogether (aaaargh!).

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Originally Posted by Michael F

Air is for tires.

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Not anymore what do you think happens to all that great N2 that come out of a membrain system? Capture, recompress and put it in high performance tires. They loose pressure slower and don't change as much from heat..

Wait just a minute. Ok if you can't violate a depth level at intro or cave 1 or whatever pretty please let me cave dive cert you have how do you then take a class that takes you to 130 without violating the standard? You see my point? If you are in the supervision of an instructor for the level of the dive plan IE a full cave instructor takes a AN/DP student that is intro to 130 no violation has occurred.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Wait just a minute. Ok if you can't violate a depth level at intro or cave 1 or whatever pretty please let me cave dive cert you have how do you then take a class that takes you to 130 without violating the standard? You see my point? If you are in the supervision of an instructor for the level of the dive plan IE a full cave instructor takes a AN/DP student that is intro to 130 no violation has occurred.

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By the logic above, Cave/An-DP/DPV Instructor taking newly certified OW diver on a scooter dive in a cave to 140' for an AN-DP course, violates no standard of being a Cave or AN-DP or DPV Instructor, because the OW diver is "in the supervision of an instructor for the level of the dive plan."

Regarding my instructor not doing my AN-DP course in a cave when I was Apprentice Cave certified, one of the things I said was: "... I would have been diving beyond both my cave training certification level (Apprentice) AND my basic diving certification level (Nitrox), and the instructor was only willing to train above one certification level at a time."

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Originally Posted by Rhino

By the logic above, Cave/An-DP/DPV Instructor taking newly certified OW diver on a scooter dive in a cave to 140' for an AN-DP course, violates no standard of being a Cave or AN-DP or DPV Instructor, because the OW diver is "in the supervision of an instructor for the level of the dive plan."

Regarding my instructor not doing my AN-DP course in a cave when I was Apprentice Cave certified, one of the things I said was: "... I would have been diving beyond both my cave training certification level (Apprentice) AND my basic diving certification level (Nitrox), and the instructor was only willing to train above one certification level at a time."

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I'm sure you can pile any amount of detritus on the logic to make it invalid, my point is that anytime you train to the next level you are technically violating your current level of certification. But you are doing htis under the supervision of a dive professional, not a trust me dive with an experienced buddy.

I think I was a bit ethereal in my first rendition, so let me try this with a more concrete example and a couple terms defined for the purposes of discussion. "Standard" is something an instructor must follow while teaching. "Limits" are the rules you are to follow once you are certified.

Is an intro diver with a previous trimix certification perform limited to cave dives shallower than 130'? Does being full cave change the limit, or do I have to have a cave trimix certification?

Can an instructor teaching a full cave course to a trimix certified diver do a training dive deeper than 130' and stay within standards?

In other words, are the limits restrictive (always limit yourself to the least) or cumulative (dive to the limits of your highest level of training)..? What about the standards?

And yes, I deliberately loaded the question, because I see divers and instructors in real life and on the internet doing it whichever way is convenient or best for them. I also deliberately used trimix rather than AN/DP to avoid the AIR/END arguments, which isn't the point. Although we might throw rebreather in where trimix was at and see what people think then?

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Originally Posted by mstueven

I think I was a bit ethereal in my first rendition, so let me try this with a more concrete example and a couple terms defined for the purposes of discussion. "Standard" is something an instructor must follow while teaching. "Limits" are the rules you are to follow once you are certified.

Is an intro diver with a previous trimix certification perform limited to cave dives shallower than 130'? Does being full cave change the limit, or do I have to have a cave trimix certification?

Can an instructor teaching a full cave course to a trimix certified diver do a training dive deeper than 130' and stay within standards?

In other words, are the limits restrictive (always limit yourself to the least) or cumulative (dive to the limits of your highest level of training)..? What about the standards?

And yes, I deliberately loaded the question, because I see divers and instructors in real life and on the internet doing it whichever way is convenient or best for them. I also deliberately used trimix rather than AN/DP to avoid the AIR/END arguments, which isn't the point. Although we might throw rebreather in where trimix was at and see what people think then?

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Since I am not an instructor or a board member of any training agency I can't say. But one thing? What is Cave Trimix? I'm Full Cave and TDI Tri-mix I dive Henley's and occasionally parts of Eagles Next. AM I diving beyond my certification limits? I don't believe so. Did I dive below 130 in training in a cave? Yep. Did it violate standards I don't think so. But I'm not to say.

The real issue here is not what agency he was teaching for or not teaching for. He was the training director and as such (like many love to claim) is held to a certain standard of actions. After speaking to one of the divers who was intro certified only, he stated he became stuck in the "restriction" and has since quit cave diving. Now based on his statement, and that of a few others recently, it seems this person has a history of violations which have taken some time to catch up. Sure Oliver is going to defending his buddy to his death but you can't ignore the facts. Any instructor this high up who violates ethics and standards time and time again is a ticking time bomb for his students and this community. There will be another agency who will pick him up because it's all about the money. When we decide as a whole that no amount of money is worth a life then perhaps this will change. Just had this conservation last night. I know of only one shop who could care less about the money and more about the environment and lives. If you want to talk standards, let's talk about the standard of money being worth more than everything else. After all, its how this mess started. I can agree, teaching tech classes off a boat is costly and stricken with logistical challenges. But who wants to put their life on the line because the weather may blow the trip or the current is to strong?? The real issue is too many are placing the dollar over safety and this crap needs to stop.

Every agency differs on training in overhead. What does not differ is the safety we all owe our students. It doesn't matter if I am teaching TDI, PADI, PSAI, NSS-CDS, NACD, NAUI, CMAS, SSI or any of the others, a life lost is just as lost with TDI as it is with NACD. This is the price we cannot afford but people like this guy seem to think we can write the check. Or maybe he thinks the check will never be his to write?

Either way, I enjoy my diving without all this BS and I need not venture too far or into the overcrowded what is becoming limited accessible sites most have to go to. I guess that's the nice thing about where I am in my career of cave diving.

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Originally Posted by Rhino

By the logic above, Cave/An-DP/DPV Instructor taking newly certified OW diver on a scooter dive in a cave to 140' for an AN-DP course, violates no standard of being a Cave or AN-DP or DPV Instructor, because the OW diver is "in the supervision of an instructor for the level of the dive plan."

Regarding my instructor not doing my AN-DP course in a cave when I was Apprentice Cave certified, one of the things I said was: "... I would have been diving beyond both my cave training certification level (Apprentice) AND my basic diving certification level (Nitrox), and the instructor was only willing to train above one certification level at a time."

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That's a good point.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

I'm sure you can pile any amount of detritus on the logic to make it invalid, my point is that anytime you train to the next level you are technically violating your current level of certification. But you are doing htis under the supervision of a dive professional, not a trust me dive with an experienced buddy.

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The rule I've heard is "Dive one level beyond your training." If you're Cavern, you can do an Intro dive with an instructor.

Bold/Red is mine:

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Originally Posted by mstueven

I think I was a bit ethereal in my first rendition, so let me try this with a more concrete example and a couple terms defined for the purposes of discussion. "Standard" is something an instructor must follow while teaching. "Limits" are the rules you are to follow once you are certified.
I think that cert limits are a good idea to make more available. That way, we wouldn't all be arguing about this. There'd be a clear cut "This card certifies you to dive within the limits of: No deco, no major restrictions, 130ft max depth, with a buddy, on the gold line, to sixths of two tanks"....or whatever. Then, if someone was diving thirds, double-stages, deco on trimix to 160ft through restrictions we'd know, clearly. They could even reference official definitions of each of those. This could open up some ugly cans of worms, though.

Is an intro diver with a previous trimix certification perform limited to cave dives shallower than 130'? Does being full cave change the limit, or do I have to have a cave trimix certification?
My understanding is that yes, being Intro limits you to 130ft, period. My Intro card also clearly states "No Decompression." I was told that that was true, REGARDLESS of other certifications. I've met Full Trimix Instructors that are Intro certified and weren't allowed to do deco dives in the overhead. And yes, Full Cave does change that limit. Full Cave, the way it was explained to me by an instructor, was the "license to do any cave dive you'd like." My instructors told me that them giving me a Full Cave card meant that I was expected to be mentally and physically prepared for much bigger dives than I should be doing at that time. It was made clear to me that, while I was allowed to be as aggressive as I'd like, I should use my best judgement before making a dive and that they were giving me the card under the impression that I was wise enough to not go straight to a 4-stage scooter dive but that I'd expand my limits gradually. Deco and mixed gas were both covered topics (briefly) but they were topics for another course.

Can an instructor teaching a full cave course to a trimix certified diver do a training dive deeper than 130' and stay within standards?
I'm no instructor, but my understanding is that they cannot. Training standards seem to me to indicate a max depth. My cert limit is 130ft END, which would allow mix....but I don't think the training standards phrased it as END.

In other words, are the limits restrictive (always limit yourself to the least) or cumulative (dive to the limits of your highest level of training)..? What about the standards?
I think it'd be foolish to think they were cumulative, or anything other than restrictive. Same goes for standards.

And yes, I deliberately loaded the question, because I see divers and instructors in real life and on the internet doing it whichever way is convenient or best for them. I also deliberately used trimix rather than AN/DP to avoid the AIR/END arguments, which isn't the point. Although we might throw rebreather in where trimix was at and see what people think then?
I think the CCR case is different because it's my understanding that there are separate courses for CCR divers that lack overhead training to go straight to Cave without separate OC Cave training. I know many CCR divers get OC Cave training and then do a crossover, but I think most CCR divers jump straight to Cave. CCR is something I'm fairly ignorant about, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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NACD training standards were posted on another forum. I'm going to search through those and see what I can find to back up my statements above. However, like so many other things on this topic (or similar topics), there's a lot of gray area and a lot of assumptions. There are also a lot of complications with there being so many agencies teaching slightly different things.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Agreed. How is this absent from their website?

But, is your question whether the tdi class was violating standards?

Was your TDI instructor (also) an NACD instructor?

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my question is 'is this technically a violation? because if so that's silly and needs to be addressed'.

yes, he was/is, and he was my instructor cavern through full as well as an/dp. i'm sure he saw this class as part of the cavern to full continuum, as did i, and not random chunks. perhaps he'd have done things differently if i hadn't been his cavern/intro student with app/full planned in a few more months, i don't know.