Extending the gold line at JB

This poll is for all of you who know and love Jackson Blue.

As you will be aware of, the beginning of the gold line is currently located about 110' from the entrance.
From my observations, a lot of the more experienced divers choose not to run a line in JB.
While conditions are generally close to perfect, there can be situations when the visibility will drop to a level that may not allow a safe exit from the cavern under all circumstances.
Just imagine you run into trouble further back in the cave and are in a bad silt out, the last issue you want to run into is having a hard time finding your way from the end of the gold line to the exit.

Adding to the risk, people drop their O2 tanks just about anywhere. At the grim reaper sign, along the sand path coming in the rock garden, or hide it in the deco room under a rock ledge.
Imagine the search for your O2 in very low visibility and the unnecessary stress.

On the other hand, on a busy day there will be a spiderweb of lines running down the deco room into the rock garden, with line just about everywhere.
It can get really nasty at times, especially when the flow is up and scooters are used.

So after talking to a few people our thoughts were, why is the gold line not extended to the end of the rock garden and tied off at the bottom of the rocks?
Many other caves start much closer - Twin, Peacock, Devil's, Little River, and Madison to name a few.

Seen from the entrance, the gold line could start right after entering the rock garden from the deco room, on the right side.
Since this is a rocky area, the end of the line could even include a number of loops, say 4-5, to attach O2 cylinders to.

Both the start of the gold line, plus the O2 tanks, would not be in view of swimmers peeking into the cavern area.
On the other hand it would be pretty much a no-brainer to exit from there. It would be easy to use the flow to get into the deco room and just keep on going straight ahead.

What is your opinion?

This should be interesting.

considering the amount of training that goes on at JB, it would make it less useful as a training site for running primary. I mean the instructor could still mandate to run past the sign..

when i dove JB for a week, we had a primary for the group that we left for the week...so i didnt have to bother. my personal vote is to extend out cuz im lazy

i surprisingly still run a primary in P1, maybe cuz it takes so little time despite the uselessness.

If its for overall safety and less of a mess then I like it. However, If an adult cave diver chooses to not run a line then they made a choice they'll have to deal with in reduced viz. I do like the loop idea for deco bottles.

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My understanding that the line was purposely set further back there due the fact that non cave divers can dive the mill pond. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

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Originally Posted by Dark Eternal

My understanding that the line was purposely set further back there due the fact that non cave divers can dive the mill pond. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

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That may have been said but what about Twin. It is what 6" from open water? If that was the reason wouldn't it apply to all the caves on the pond?

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Originally Posted by Dark Eternal

My understanding that the line was purposely set further back there due the fact that non cave divers can dive the mill pond. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

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Not sure about a park rule, but I have seen them there. On one trip I was down there last fall with Edd, a cave diver came out of JB and started asking where his OW trained buddy was that he left in the cavern. We hadn't seen him on our way out. Edd started to go back in to the cavern area to find the lost buddy. He happened to pop out as soon as Edd started to enter the cavern. Was he allowed to be there, I don't know. Was he there, yes. Not sure if the placement of the gold line would make any difference in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

That may have been said but what about Twin. It is what 6" from open water? If that was the reason wouldn't it apply to all the caves on the pond?

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JB is directly beneath a diving board. Twin Cave is less directly accessible.

As to extending the gold line, it seems fine as is. If some folks don't want to run a line, that's their choice.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

That may have been said but what about Twin. It is what 6" from open water? If that was the reason wouldn't it apply to all the caves on the pond?

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Twin used to be about 75' feet into the cave, 6" from OW is very tempting due to the number of OW divers that are starting to dive the Mill Pond. I know we nearly had an accident in Twin that involved OW divers, and can't speak for where the line started at that time, or even if it was a factor.

There are two sides to the argument, having lines closer to open water will tempt non-cave divers,but also people contend that it gives them a chance to make it out. I think most arguments have leaned toward if they see a line then they are tempted to go further knowing that they have a means to make it out. Personally I think lines approaching open water needs to be analyzed for the risk of the site due to OW diver access versus what is convenient to cave divers due to flow, deco bottles, scooters, traffic etc etc.

Here is another consideration. I was marveling at a picture of the "E" rock formation in HITW. Very unique formation. The line is wrapped around that formation now (where best recollection a number of years ago is it wasn't). A diver pulling on the line or an entangled scooter could cause damage to that formation. Should this be a line that should be moved?

Why would you need loops for deco tanks? There is plenty of flat space at 20', and even more once you get into the cavern.

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Originally Posted by FW

Why would you need loops for deco tanks? There is plenty of flat space at 20', and even more once you get into the cavern.

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The idea behind the loops was having the deco tanks on the line, plus not have them lying all over the place in the deco room where swimmers might grab them.

We are taught in training to run a primary line from OW. If a cave diver chooses to not run a line they are accepting the elevated risk that goes with it. Personally I don't like all the lines being put so close to cave entrances & close jump lines, I believe it contributes significantly to erosion of line handling skills. Personally I am also a guest and would never rearrange someones furniture when I am visiting their home, in the same respect I would not move a line (unless there were an immediate emergency or safety issue) without the approval from whomever lives there and maintains the lines.

Locals at JB are rather educated about cave divers & there have been no incidents of deco cylinders being messed with to my knowledge. I don't think loops on the line are necessary.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

The idea behind the loops was having the deco tanks on the line, plus not have them lying all over the place in the deco room where swimmers might grab them.

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All you would need to do is clip the deco bottle to your primary line (or permanent line).

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Originally Posted by Bobby

Personally I am also a guest and would never rearrange someones furniture when I am visiting their home, in the same respect I would not move a line (unless there were an immediate emergency or safety issue) without the approval from whomever lives there and maintains the lines.

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I'm not moving any line and have no intentions. I was just asking on this thread how people feel about the gold line being where it is and how they would feel about possible alternatives.

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Originally Posted by FW

All you would need to do is clip the deco bottle to your primary line (or permanent line).

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One advantage I have to say about having something like lines that have loops that encourage deco bottle placement, or anything similar, is that it has cave conservation benefits. Frequently AL 40s are used and they have a tendency to float valve down, bottom up, which when caught in the flow move about. This movement can either bang into the cave wall, or the valve/regulator end is digging into the floor. Places where we have consistent deco placement due to something like this has a tendency to contain the cave attrition to one area.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I'm not moving any line and have no intentions. I was just asking on this thread how people feel about the gold line being where it is and how they would feel about possible alternatives.

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Oliver,
My comments were personal thoughts and not directed towards you or anyone else. After rereading my post I can see how it might have come across that way which was not my intent. :D

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Originally Posted by Bobby

My comments were personal thoughts and not directed towards you or anyone else. After rereading my post I can see how it might have come across that way which was not my intent. :D

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Thank you, I understand Bobby. Any result of the poll would of course need to be brought forward as a suggestion to the locals who dive and especially teach at JB.
Looking at the opinions so far, that is no likely to happen since people seem to prefer to keep the line where it is now.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Here is another consideration. I was marveling at a picture of the "E" rock formation in HITW. Very unique formation. The line is wrapped around that formation now (where best recollection a number of years ago is it wasn't). A diver pulling on the line or an entangled scooter could cause damage to that formation. Should this be a line that should be moved?

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Never been there, Never seen it (except for the picture) and this gets a resounding DUH!!!!! no line should wrap around a formation, specially one that looks as delicate as it does. The line should also be ran far enough away that divers can't inadvertently touch it by accident or with a scooter.

Just my opinion.

Tim

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Here is another consideration. I was marveling at a picture of the "E" rock formation in HITW. Very unique formation. The line is wrapped around that formation now (where best recollection a number of years ago is it wasn't). A diver pulling on the line or an entangled scooter could cause damage to that formation. Should this be a line that should be moved?

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You should bring that to the attention of the line committee at the next board meeting.....

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Originally Posted by Bobby

there have been no incidents of deco cylinders being messed with to my knowledge.

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Whenever folks are swimming at JB there are multiple lifeguards around the spring pool. If someone came out of the water with someone's deco cylinder it would be noticed immediately. Not like at Ginnie where there is usually nobody with the authority to stop someone and ask whose deco bottle they're carrying.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Whenever folks are swimming at JB there are multiple lifeguards around the spring pool. If someone came out of the water with someone's deco cylinder it would be noticed immediately. Not like at Ginnie where there is usually nobody with the authority to stop someone and ask whose deco bottle they're carrying.

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My worry was more that some teenage kid might grab a tank and tox on it, not so much head off and steal it.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

My worry was more that some teenage kid might grab a tank and tox on it, not so much head off and steal it.

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I don't think that's happened so far and don't think it will anytime soon.

If it does, I say evolution was going to catch up to that kid anyway. So is the circle of life.

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I think of running a line as the beginning of every dive, part of the trip.

I know that many with more experience than me prefer not to run a line in JB, and, as a new guy still working on perfecting my reel skills, I can see how skipping that would be a time saver. However, I'd like to think that when I have as much experience as the divers who opt not to run a reel, doing so will be such a breeze for me that I won't give it a second thought, and it won't cost me hardly any more time. So, what's the point of skipping it? Then, moving the gold line to mitigate the risk of skipping it? I don't understand how this thought even got started.

With all due respect Oliver, the only point that I understand is that it could reduce the mess on a busy day. I haven't seen it like that though, do you have a picture?

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Originally Posted by Aotus

However, I'd like to think that when I have as much experience as the divers who opt not to run a reel, doing so will be such a breeze for me that I won't give it a second thought, and it won't cost me hardly any more time. So, what's the point of skipping it? Then, moving the gold line to mitigate the risk of skipping it? I don't understand how this thought even got started.

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Someone who is experienced at it, will run a line at pretty much the normal swimming pace of his buddies.
If there are several primaries installed already, it can be a bit more of a time consuming process to route the own line properly.

Where it gets more difficult, is when you use multiple stages with scooters, especially when the flow is up.
Running a line can then be a painful experience because it gets fairly difficult to do without banging your scooters and stages behind the back.

So for these kinds of dives, one would prefer to swim in and prepare the line before the "big" dive.
However most people at this stage don't bother to run a line at JB, myself included.

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With all due respect Oliver, the only point that I understand is that it could reduce the mess on a busy day. I haven't seen it like that though, do you have a picture?

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I would need to check my videos. The most annoying part about the spiderwebs is, on a very busy day the deco room can be so littered with O2 tanks and 3-4 lines on the right side coming in, that it gets a bit difficult to find a nice spot to hang out for decompression.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I think of running a line as the beginning of every dive, part of the trip.

I know that many with more experience than me prefer not to run a line in JB, and, as a new guy still working on perfecting my reel skills, I can see how skipping that would be a time saver. However, I'd like to think that when I have as much experience as the divers who opt not to run a reel, doing so will be such a breeze for me that I won't give it a second thought, and it won't cost me hardly any more time. So, what's the point of skipping it? Then, moving the gold line to mitigate the risk of skipping it? I don't understand how this thought even got started.

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Dr. X and I run lines in JB, Devils Eye & Ear, etc.. We even jokingly fight over who gets to run the line with the winner being the one that runs it. IMHO if running lines is practiced enough it does become second nature & each time I run one I do my best to do it perfect (never is) and critique my work while taking it out.

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Originally Posted by Bobby

Dr. X and I run lines in JB, Devils Eye & Ear, etc.. We even jokingly fight over who gets to run the line with the winner being the one that runs it. IMHO if running lines is practiced enough it does become second nature & each time I run one I do my best to do it perfect (never is) and critique my work while taking it out.

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That being said, proverbial "spider web" of lines is quite doable. Where many people feel they have to tie into the beginning of the gold line, I prefer to run along the left wall, avoid all the lines, and then right angle into the gold line about 30ft from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I think of running a line as the beginning of every dive, part of the trip.

I know that many with more experience than me prefer not to run a line in JB, and, as a new guy still working on perfecting my reel skills, I can see how skipping that would be a time saver. However, I'd like to think that when I have as much experience as the divers who opt not to run a reel, doing so will be such a breeze for me that I won't give it a second thought, and it won't cost me hardly any more time. So, what's the point of skipping it? Then, moving the gold line to mitigate the risk of skipping it? I don't understand how this thought even got started.

With all due respect Oliver, the only point that I understand is that it could reduce the mess on a busy day. I haven't seen it like that though, do you have a picture?

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It used to take me FOREVER to run a primary to the gold line in JB. I've gotten MUCH faster now, but still slower than without running one (obviously). I'm very curious to see what a scooter will do to me.

As for the spider-web, that can be SUPER bad. July 4th a few years ago, there were literally a dozen lines in JB. Not all of them ran to gold, though. A couple of OW courses were being taught on a "Mexican Cenote Guide" type of cavern, where they run a line in a circuit and the divers get to follow it. That meant there were extra lines.....it was bad. This can be mitigated several different ways. One way is for a group of people to share a reel. Be the first team in, tell people you're installing a reel and to cookie the reel near gold line while they're in the cave. At the end of the day, if there are no cookies, pull it. If there are, just drop it off at Edd's when you're done. Another option is that for certain "events" there have, in fact, been "Temporary extensions" of the gold line. I think we did that at the CDF Anti-Social at JB whenever that was. We assumed it was going to be busy so someone installed a reel and called it gold.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

That being said, proverbial "spider web" of lines is quite doable. Where many people feel they have to tie into the beginning of the gold line, I prefer to run along the left wall, avoid all the lines, and then right angle into the gold line about 30ft from the beginning.

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Good point. One of our favorite runs is the lower cavern on the left going in to the Horse Shoe Circuit, then tie in to the gold line off the Horse Shoe past the drop down.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

run it out further..it will give some pruning practice and keep the gold line maker in business.......

My experiences running line at JB include the spiderweb experience and the spider web experience with a scooter. Running your line under all the other lines you cross while handling a scooter may well have been good practice for me, but I certainly did not enjoy it and I certainly wished I did not have to do it. (I am not yet at the stage where I break rules.)

Here are some random thoughts:

1. Oliver said in post #24, "most people at this stage don't bother to run a line at JB." I believe him; I know I feel tempted. That means that the current practice at that site is an incentive for experienced cave divers to ignore a key safety rule that has been around since Exley. Isn't this a more serious incentive than the supposed incentive of the permanent line to draw unqualified divers into the cave?

2. Any free swimmer or diver in the open water can see into that extensive cavern area and be tempted to enter. I am not sure seeing a line would make much difference in that temptation.

3. When divers lay a proper line all the way out to the open water, won't unqualified divers be just as tempted to follow that line in as the gold line? In fact, isn't it more of a temptation to follow a line from the open water into the cavern than to follow a line that stops before it is readily visible to open water divers or swimmers?

4. All of my diving there has been in the winter, with no one but cave divers present. I have never seen it in the summer. I suspect I would feel better under those circumstances with deco bottles farther in. What if a swimmer decides to go in, take a breath off a bottle, and then hold that breath back to the surface?

5. Needing to run a line for the purpose of a class is not relevant because you can always do that regardless of the placement of the gold line. When I first learned to run line, it was at Ginnie Springs, with all of the caves in the area blown out and undiveable, including the ear entrance. Expecting a flood of divers, Ginnie Springs ran a line through the eye down to the gold line, with a sign saying all divers should use that line and not run their own. My instructor just had me run line over and over again in other places (mostly the Catacombs).

6. I think the argument that if an unqualified diver did succumb to the temptation to enter a forbidden area, it would be nice if the way out were clearly marked is a valid one.

John, that was very well said, I agree 100% with every single one of your arguments!

I accidentally voted selection 2. (Big thumbs and iPhone screen). I was trying to vote NO. Please leave JB alone, it needs no "improvements"

I think that running the gold line to OW causes a major safety hazard and shows OW divers there's a cave there. Think about a diver who meets the following criteria

1) Doesn't have the internet to read the thousands of blog posts, forum posts, news articles about Jackson Blue having a cave.
2) Doesn't notice the dozen divers gearing up in full cave gear with lines.
3) Doesn't notice the cave diver pavilion.
4) Doesn't notice the half dozen primary reels already in place.
5) Doesn't notice their no overhead training taught in OW class.
6) Doesn't notice the go no further sign in the cave.

This poor diver would unknowingly cave dive without the proper training. :roll:

Any diver wanting to practice their reel skills can go past the gold line. Any class needing reel work can go past the gold line. I don't see why people think this is such a big deal when people in classes or for practice run reels every day at P1.

Jb isn't really an issue to me one way or another. It would be nice to have the line extended but it isn't that bad. Now HITW is a pain to me. A couple of scooters and a few stages and running a reel in there is a bigger pain. I know people who don't run a line there and trying to get out of HITW in zero viz would be a lot harder to me than JB.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Think about a diver who meets the following criteria

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You left out all the little green signs in the parking lot that say, "Cave diver parking only."

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Originally Posted by bamafan

I know people who don't run a line there and trying to get out of HITW in zero viz would be a lot harder to me than JB.

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Chances are the people who don't run a reel, and going to take short cuts in other parts of the cave as well. We can't protect them from Murphy and Darwin no matter what we do.

I know this is about JB, but was told this weekend that the line at P1 was ran so close to OW to reduce the number of lines being ran.... don't flame me for asking but are we not supposed to run lines at P1 to the gold? and NO I'm not going to divulge where I heard that, just wanted to confirm either way? Figure someone might expand on the history of gold lines being so close to OW.


Tim

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I think that running the gold line to OW causes a major safety hazard and shows OW divers there's a cave there. Think about a diver who meets the following criteria

1) Doesn't have the internet to read the thousands of blog posts, forum posts, news articles about Jackson Blue having a cave.
2) Doesn't notice the dozen divers gearing up in full cave gear with lines.
3) Doesn't notice the cave diver pavilion.
4) Doesn't notice the half dozen primary reels already in place.
5) Doesn't notice their no overhead training taught in OW class.
6) Doesn't notice the go no further sign in the cave.

This poor diver would unknowingly cave dive without the proper training. :roll:

Any diver wanting to practice their reel skills can go past the gold line. Any class needing reel work can go past the gold line. I don't see why people think this is such a big deal when people in classes or for practice run reels every day at P1.

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That's the thing, when people are there a line or lines are usually run all the way out to the entrance anyway. I don't really see the distinction between that and the permanent line being run almost as far.

I mean swimmers already free dive in and breath hold off the air pockets in the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

I know this is about JB, but was told this weekend that the line at P1 was ran so close to OW to reduce the number of lines being ran.... don't flame me for asking but are we not supposed to run lines at P1 to the gold? and NO I'm not going to divulge where I heard that, just wanted to confirm either way? Figure someone might expand on the history of gold lines being so close to OW.


Tim

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The history of the goldline at P1 is explained in this forum, so a simple search will reveal this. It is difficult to compare JB with P1 because unlike JB there is no open water diving allowed in the basin,hence gold line near the entrance doesn't present the same problem.

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Originally Posted by twaldo

don't flame me for asking but are we not supposed to run lines at P1 to the gold?

Tim

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you're free to do whichever you like.

As I write, 27 people have voted for changing the line, and 34 have voted to keep things the way they are.

I find the rest of the thread interesting because of this. The comments heavily favor the minority viewpoint. Throughout the thread, the people who would like a change have listed a host of reasons for a change. Unless I missed something, the only rationale from the people who want it to remain the same is that forcing people to run line from OW to the end of the cavern will improve their line laying skills.

Let's pretend there were no line in there at all, and this were the initial debate on where to start the gold line. We have heard from one side of the argument. Can people who believe the line should start at the end of the cavern provide the reasons they feel this way?

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

Can people who believe the line should start at the end of the cavern provide the reasons they feel this way?

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Which end?

Where the cave begins--where it is now.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

Where the cave begins--where it is now.

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The cave begins at the entrance. If there's rock over your head, you're in the cave.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

The cave begins at the entrance. If there's rock over your head, you're in the cave.

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I think there is utility in the distinction between cavern and cave, even if it is unique to the diving community.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

I think there is utility in the distinction between cavern and cave, even if it is unique to the diving community.

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The cave doesn't care. Under the right conditions you can die just as easily 20' from the entrance as 2000'.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

The cave doesn't care. Under the right conditions you can die just as easily 20' from the entrance as 2000'.

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So true.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

The cave doesn't care. Under the right conditions you can die just as easily 20' from the entrance as 2000'.

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Which is why we humans make the distinctions, not the cave. I suppose you also argue that a pool and a deep dive are equivalent because "under the right conditions you can die just as easily"... If you are advocating erasing the distinction between cavern and cave training and certs, best of luck to you.

If you guys want to extend the gold line in JB, why don't you do it on the other end. My old eyes can't hardly tell whether that old string out there is gold, brown, white or whatever. I followed Ben out from the far end of Deloach's a couple months ago and even he was scootering inverted to keep the visual going. Actually, replacing that stuff on the ceiling should probably be a job done by somebody that know's what they are doing (not implying that those involved in the poll don't know how to lay gold line). I'm not complaining about the current state of the gold line. Just think that the far end needs more help than the cavern end.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

Which is why we humans make the distinctions, not the cave. I suppose you also argue that a pool and a deep dive are equivalent because "under the right conditions you can die just as easily"... If you are advocating erasing the distinction between cavern and cave training and certs, best of luck to you.

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No. If we are going to say that you should always run a line anyway, I don't see the distinction from having the permanent line run out further in a high traffic cave like that.

The reasoning for having a line to the surface doesn't change because of an arbitrary limit.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

No. If we are going to say that you should always run a line anyway, I don't see the distinction from having the permanent line run out further in a high traffic cave like that.

The reasoning for having a line to the surface doesn't change because of an arbitrary limit.

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And we're back on track! I agree with you on that. If the line were already extended to, say, just beyond the deco room, I would be taking the same position I am now - that the line should stay as is. I think either would be just as good, maybe a little closer to the entrance, into the cavern zone would be better. However, I think the burden of making one's case is on those who advocate change. Here, there needs to be some very good points made in support of the change. While I'm perfectly happy with the line where it is, I do believe there have been an adequate number of very good points made to justify the change. That said, my opinion doesn't matter at all in this.

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Originally Posted by Aotus

However, I think the burden of making one's case is on those who advocate change. Here, there needs to be some very good points made in support of the change.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

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Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is a common fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way."[2]

An appeal to tradition essentially makes two assumptions that are not necessarily true:

• The old way of thinking was proven correct when introduced, i.e. since the old way of thinking was prevalent, it was necessarily correct.
  (In actuality this may be false—the tradition might be entirely based on incorrect grounds.)
• The past justifications for the tradition are still valid at present.
  (In actuality, the circumstances may have changed; this assumption may also therefore be untrue.)

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There is no greater burden of proof on either side; both have an equal burden. As you note, those advocating change have raised a number of points in support of that change. Those advocating the status quo have raised one--it forces divers to practice line laying skills.

I will have a more educated vote after the NSS/CDS Workshop. I am going to hear what Edd's opinion is of the line question. He has more experience in this cave than anyone I know. Interesting thought but my opinion has no where the experience that Edd has. I will make my vote after hearing his take on the question.