Reading will get you in trouble

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?
I had a discussion with a NSS-CDS instructor who is of the opinion that the rise in Trained cave diver Fatalities is because 1. Instructors are out to make money so they train anyone with payment. 2. People are cheap so they will only take the minimum level of training that allows them access to systems. He will only take on a student that is willing to do full cave, and he is very discriminating on who he will train. My contention is that just like motorcycles when the number grows exponentially the number of "Trained diver fatalities" is going to rise. It's the Odds of probability working against the group. It seems to me the trained folks that has died had some type of other health issue (heart attack, stroke, aneurism) while diving. The contention that they might have lived if they were not in a cave, so this is a Cave diving Fatality might be a stretch.
Anyway, plan your dive, dive your plan, stay within your EXPERIENCE and training, be as safe as possible.

Curt

Well I'll be darned! I'm not the only one that reads it! 8)

As to the above: I think it's okay, but let's be careful.

Remember Rule #4: If you want to know a policy of sorts from one of the cave diving organizations, contact them direct. They are not under any obligation to monitor this forum. Any responses you get on this forum may NOT be representative of cave diving organizations. To contact a leading cave training organization, click on one of these links: NSS-CDS NACD IANTD GUE NAUI TDI CDG WKPP

(Nope. The links don't work. I ain't smart enough ya'll to make that happen here. If you gotta have it, go to the Forum Rules page.) :smt017

The Odds of probability don't apply in this case. Yes, you can make a case that the more divers trained, the more trained divers die, but it has nothing to do with real probabilities. There are too many variables concerning the physical and mental health of the participants. Trained divers are dying who have physical health problems and trained divers are dying who have mental health problems (lack of discipline and poor decision making skills).
That's it. Either your body gives out on you or your brain gives out on you,. That's how trained divers die.

Everyone knows someone who shouldn't be diving because of their physical and/or mental states.

As far as figuring that out during a training class....

Good Luck

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?

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There's a Zoo Hole off Grand Bahama island...

First I'm not sure Angie if you are warning that my post is a possible violation of rule #4 or not! I simple Identified this particular instructor as certified to instruct cave diving through a particular agency. There was no Opinion or statement regarding the mertit of or lack there of. Just a statement of fact. Jay I think it is absolutly incumbant on instructors to judge the people they choose to certify as to their mental state in the context you use. If you are instructing a person that you have a reasonable expectation is going to a: dive beyond their certification. b: is mentally unstable (talks of suicide). c: A Total Jerk Off (doesn't care about the cave just wants to go deep, far) you need to tell that person you are not the instructor for them. As far as Zoo hole cave goes, the 1994 report has two fatalities in May at Zoo Hole, Florida???? Anyone know where Zoo Hole is?

More often than not it takes more than a casual encounter to fully judge someone's capacity. Many said that I had no business cave diving at first and that I would likely never make it due to my past injuries. In my last medical release my doctor actually wrote down how much he had seen me benefit from cave diving, both mentally and physically.

I did a Google search for Zoo Hole Florida and all I got was the "Incident/Accident" report that started this confusion to begin with. I'll bet it's a typo or the name has been changed since then.
As for the other issue, and this is just my two cents, Even the most minor Stroke, Heart attack, Seizure, Etc is very likely to be Fatal in an overhead environment. Most people survive these kind of occurances on land and even during openwater dives when they are brought to the surface in time. Alas :cry: Even if your only a few hundred feet back in an underwater cave and have a health problem you had might as well be on Mars.
Here's an unpleasent thought. Most people don't die from Vomiting on dry land for whatever reason. Should you become Nauseous underwater and are not able to hold the reg in your mouth through the entire process you are very likely to Drown. Underwater changes everything. Underwater in a Cave changes everything times a Hundred.
Given the increasing number of Divers who are taking up our Sport it stands to reason that some of us will have these kinds of things happen to us even if we are highly trained, follow all rules, and use proper equipment and techniques.

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

I think you make my point then... sort of. The speculation has been that more trained cave divers are dying because 1: (NSS-CDS Instuctor's logic) People are not taking the Full Cave Course as a single block of instruction and are then diving beyond the experiance and or trianing.
or 2: (my contention) There are more folks in overhead environments and this presents a higher ratio of health issue to the overhead environment, therefore more folks are going to die. (Pure numbers)

As for folks like Dewayne as I've never met you I can not speak to your specific circumstance but I will assume' you spent a fair amount of time talking to at least a couple of instructors, They listened to your desire to learn cave diving and based on what you said desided you were not crazy just passionate to do something others told you you couldn't do (insert Matt the dreamer here) but whether you realize it or not you were assessed.

My concern is not with the special case but the seemingly normal person who walks into a shop and with little more conversation than "hey you teach cave diving here?" why yes I do, the cavern course is $100"
"I want Full Cave I'm AOW now"
"Ok thats $1000 and takes 7 days"
"Cool here's my visa, see you Saturday"

Now I might be over simplifying things but I have seen the look on peoples face in the LDS when you carefully explain the level of commitment to be a cave diver not just a guy diving in caves.
I'm not saying seven day wonders are not good cave divers
Far from it. I'm one but then I did not go home and not dive, let alone cave dive for 6 months to a year afterward.

I know that instruction is a profession and those guys gotta make a living. but they are also the only line of defense, once a goober gets a full cave card he cane dive just about anywhere he wants and there no stopping him. Even if he can't find anyone to dive with he will solo.

I know this is a little rambling but the point is the article in UWS and what is causing the trend.

Curt

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

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The autocensor won't let you say str*ke.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

First I'm not sure Angie if you are warning that my post is a possible violation of rule #4 or not

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Didn't say - wasn't concerned. Just doing my job to remind what/whoever was coming next to keep the thread where it needs to be because it is a thread of potential, significant merit. I have no interest otherwise. I'm not Kreskin but I've been around the block enough times to see where things can go.

Peace. 8)

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Originally Posted by Sludge

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Originally Posted by Caveranger

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

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The autocensor won't let you say str*ke.

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As we all know, it's such an offensive word...and we are all severely mentally damaged as a result of it's use, so we must be protected from such horrific things.... :roll:

Mike

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Originally Posted by curtschu

I think you make my point then... sort of. The speculation has been that more trained cave divers are dying because 1: (NSS-CDS Instuctor's logic) People are not taking the Full Cave Course as a single block of instruction and are then diving beyond the experiance and or trianing.
or 2: (my contention) There are more folks in overhead environments and this presents a higher ratio of health issue to the overhead environment, therefore more folks are going to die. (Pure numbers).......
Curt

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FWIW. This is something that warrants discussion. I proof-read that article and spent some time running numbers and checking the statistics. Statistically, the conclusions appear correct. There is a trend toward a greater percentage of total # of incidences to be associated with 'trained' cave divers. However, in the greater context of all the variable - OW, OH, etc., what does this really mean?

I'm not sure. What could be causing this trend? How real is it? The author offered some possible explanations. The author also recognizes the need for additional data analyses. It's certainly worth looking at and expecting agencies to respond accordingly. Do we have a real problem and do we as a cave diving community need to do something about it? Nothing will happen if no one talks about it.

Can't use the word St**ke, Aye? That's very Funny and I'm Laughing myself stupid after I realized why it's censored.
I went to an event in West Palm about 2 years ago and the guest speaker was a world famous and accomplished diver. I lost count as to how many times he/she used that word to describe divers whom he/she determined as inferior and most likely to be a hazard to themselves or others in the Technical realm of diving. It was a very interesting and infomative lecture but I'm of the opinion that Egos that big can be dangerous also.
Hopefully I've been vague enough without breaking any Rules.
I really got a good laugh. Thanks

I can see your point Curt, I was just pointing out that to make a sound decision the instructor needs to actually spend some time with the prospective student. My concern would be more for the determined individual who gets turned away and then decides to undertake learning to cave dive on their own.

As Angie pointed out, that article ends with the notion that if we really want to know what is causing this trend, then a much more detailed study needs to be done. I personally think it has more to do with trained divers becoming complacent than with the manner in which the training is currently being presented.

If you look at the deaths in the last 4 years 7 of 19 are attributed to lost/no line silt out or out of air. Two on the same day due to contaminated gas??? several to known health events, and a couple we'll never know...
My reasoning is this; the cause of the statistical rise in trained diver deaths is two fold. 1. already stated, there are just more trained cave divers.
2. and I think the most important, is the percentage of people diving in caves that are certified vs. not is far greater than it used to be.
I for one can tell you Peacock Springs used to be a zoo. Back in 1984 we would just show up and dive. I did my fifth dive ever going from peacock to pot hole and back. No reel, one small light per person, single tank with octo reg... How many rules did we break back then? ALL OF THEM and this was just a typical Saturday at Peacock/Orange Grove.
My mother's three sons are lucky to be alive. We as a group have done a great job getting the open water divers out of the caves, either by educating them or because most of the cool places to cave dive from the old days are now state parks and the access is controlled. What I’m trying to point out is the cave is not the causative agent in many of these deaths. Contributing sure, could one or two of these folks lived had they been diving in open water? Maybe but I have friend that keeled over in a Walmart and could not be revived. Is this a Shopping death? No just a sad death of a person too young to die, but it happens. Well think about it.

Dewayne, I would hope that the instructor taking the time to evaluate a prospective student will see that determination is not bravado or ego or worse derangement.

Curt

You are making it harder than it is.
First throw out the physical ones. It does not matter if you would have lived if your aneurism/str*ke/heart attack occured on land. Your training did not kill you and the cave did not kill you. The same thing could happen if you were out hunting or running by yourself.

Mental mistakes are killing certified cave divers. Poor decision making, whether it be diving beyond ones experience/depth/training or complacency or just flat out poor attitude.

That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.
I agree we nee to all we can to make sure folks are diving within the level of their experience. I am just concerned that alarmest reports will damage our efforts at convincing land controlers we can do this realitively safely.

Curt

How do I find the article that everyone is referring? The topic is interesting.

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That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.

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While I agree that the numbers are inflated, the fact that trained cave divers are dying is alarming in itself. For a long time, we could claim that there weren't any deaths of trained cave divers. Unfortunately, I think with the rise in popularity of cave diving, we also get a certain number or participants that shouldn't be in the sport.

I can't say I have any solutions, and thinking about the recent accidents, how do you prevent or train someone to NOT ignore an exit marker and swim 1000 feet the wrong way? How do you train or prevent divers with a history of poor decisions and unsafe practices from making that fatal dive? How do you train or prevent divers from ignoring all the recommendations and scootering into an unfamiliar and unforgiving passage in a cave?

Maybe the best we can do is openly discuss these accidents in training and in the publications so we can hopefully learn from them. Maybe they should be incorporated in the training programs along with the classic lessons we learned from "Blueprint.."

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the rise in Trained cave diver Fatalities is because 1. Instructors are out to make money so they train anyone with payment. 2. People are cheap so they will only take the minimum level of training that allows them access to systems.

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I don't think there is any evidence that fatalities are linked to this. The recent fatalities involved full cave trained and experienced divers and I can't recall any where this was a factor in the death. I think this may have a lot to do with conservation, or the lack thereof. How many hand, fin, face plants in Peacock are due to lack of training and/or experience? Most maybe? When was the last time you accidentally sank up to your elbow in the clay?

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Originally Posted by mpoucher

Maybe the best we can do is openly discuss these accidents in training and in the publications so we can hopefully learn from them. Maybe they should be incorporated in the training programs along with the classic lessons we learned from "Blueprint.."

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I agree. I'm not sure that accidents are openly discussed well enough. I understand that it's a sensitive issue. It is especially so if there is a survivor from the team. However, I can tell you that every time a trained diver has died I internalize what I know from those accidents because 'stuff happens' and 'stuff' could happen to me. It is helpful to at least know what NOT to do when 'stuff' happens.

How long is a reasonable wait time before the accident analyses become available? 6mo? 1yr? (IUCRR reports, etc). Perhaps you are right Mike. The cave community needs to start pushing to talk more about these things. If there are folks out there that disagree, I'd like to hear from them so that I can understand better why the information about accidents isn't out there. Maybe there are very valid reasons for it but from the outside looking in it seems counterproductive.

FWIW I've never accidently sunk elbow deep into clay but I did once get my new SM rig hung on the line and face planted into a 'silt monster' (training told me what to do & my instructor got a good laugh). But then again I haven't started scootering 'yet' either........... :oops:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

How do I find the article that everyone is referring? The topic is interesting.

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It is in the special issue of UWS. If you are a member of the NSS-CDS you should get a copy in the mail. If not, someone you know might have one.

Mike you make a great point. Many times in this and other reports and posts folks have said diving beyond ones level has been a reason for accidents but you say no. I believe you are right. I find this discussion VERY VERY simular to the ones we had in the motorcycle world when everyone and their father bought a new 150 HP repli-racer. While most people got a motorcycle endorsement on their license there was still a rash of returning riders that were involved in fatal crashes. The advantage the dive induastry has over the motorcycles is that instructors have the power to turn away folks that just don't get it.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.
Curt

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Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure all the numbers are in. Do the statistics from OW accidents include those associated with medical problems? If so, then maybe it's a wash - comparatively speaking.

I believe the point Mr. Bozanic was making that whatever the reason, the numbers are rising. So we need to understand why they are rising and whether or not those accidents can be prevented. I'm glad he wrote the article. Discussion needs to start somewhere. Maybe it'll be useful feedback when he again crunches the numbers. Taking a different look at the sample data, etc.

I have been doing this for close to 15 years now and it seens the biggest problem with accident analyis is that many times we just don't know what happened. Look at the article how many UNKNOWNs are there. unfortunately many times the investigation is done by the local sheriff and all they are looking for is that there was no foul play. Once that is determined the rest is done by Volunteers with in the cave community and like you said many times they are probably reluctant to approach and survivor or family. I know I would God bless those folks.

Curt

Yeah. That WOULD be a thankless job. Most community service job do tend that way.

What have you been doing for 15 years? Are you a sheriff?

Cave diving on and off, Back on heavy now.
But I was a police investigator for 10 years before admiting I'm a computer geek :D so I understand their priorities.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?

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I'd just like to know where in the publication it says "Zoo Hole" ? I read the thing but can't seem to find any reference to that, must be getting senile I guess

Brian

Reading the articles in the UWS made me search the Caves.org\aca reports. It is in the 1994 report in May two fatalities because inadaquate equipment, out of air. I was trying to determine if this is an old name of something else or a miss print. I am also looking for the actual reports, this is just a list of dates and locations with a very brief synopsis. So if anyone can direct me to an online source.

It's actually in the Bahamas, near Freeport. The "Florida" location listed on the ACA web page is a typo, which I am correcting. It's reported correctly in the 1994 issue of ACA. Somehow I listed it as Florida when I put the index on the ACA page, and that's what got copied into the UWS article.

The original reference was a newspaper article that I have in the ACA files. The incident came to my attention when it was reported by Bill Kilmack in his column "In the Media" in the November 1994 NSS News. The newspaper article was submitted by Dennis Williams.

Here is the ACA writeup on the incident:

May 1994
Zoo Hole, Bahamas
out of air, inadequate equipment

Michael Brown (37) and Randy Smith (30) died while diving in waters near Freeport, Grand Bahamas. They entered a blue hole that led to a cave in about 120 feet of water. They did not use a guide line or lights, though both were reportedly available in their boat. Brown was a certified cave diver, who had been diving for over 20 years and taught courses in advanced diving. He had dived the cave previously. Smith learned to dive in the Navy and had worked as a commercial diver. Brown was found about 100 feet from the entrance. Smith was located the next day by two professional divers from Gainesville, Florida.

References:
1. Bill Klimack, “In the Media”, NSS News, v52n11, November 1994, p. 340.

2. Newspaper article, source unknown, submitted by Dennis Williams.